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namvet
06-21-2008, 03:17 PM
Marines are in a fight to drive the desperate Taliban forces from their most valuable financial resouse. the poppy fields.

GARMSER, Afghanistan — U.S. Marines are trading gunfire and artillery shells with Taliban militants in the volatile southern province of Helmand, the world's largest poppy-growing region.

I guess defoliants are illegal???? its the fastest way to destroy the entire crop.

source (source)

Elspeth
06-21-2008, 05:34 PM
Marines are in a fight to drive the desperate Taliban forces from their most valuable financial resouse. the poppy fields.

GARMSER, Afghanistan — U.S. Marines are trading gunfire and artillery shells with Taliban militants in the volatile southern province of Helmand, the world's largest poppy-growing region.

I guess defoliants are illegal???? its the fastest way to destroy the entire crop.

source (source)

The Taliban is just the gift that keeps on giving, isn't it.

LogansPapa
06-21-2008, 08:48 PM
Are not the poppy fields, with last year's record crop, the single greatest peace keeping tool employed in that paradise of a country?

namvet
06-21-2008, 10:20 PM
Are not the poppy fields, with last year's record crop, the single greatest peace keeping tool employed in that paradise of a country?

are drugs good for you??? thats what your saying. thanks

LogansPapa
06-21-2008, 10:30 PM
are drugs good for you??? thats what your saying. thanks

No - not even close. But thanks for playing.

The United States has turned a blind eye to the poppy harvest since our folks let OBL wander up into the mountains between Afghanistan and Pakistan. That 'nod & a wink' War on Drugs tactic, being silent and thereby condoning, has been policy since 9/11.

Be clear on this - each poppy crop gives local war lords cash and those monies buy RPG's, AK's and the ammunition to fill them. Not the dirty crap from the filthy streets of the local town market - but brand new Chinese merchandise, one of which was a rocket that just killed a 19 year old kid from Hemet, here in California: The 500th member of our armed forces from my state to die in the Iraqi and Afghan conflicts.

So do not attempt to preach to me about my love of drugs - cause that's simply bullshit.

namvet
06-21-2008, 10:33 PM
No - not even close. But thanks for playing.

The United States has turned a blind eye to the poppy harvest since our folks let OBL wander up into the mountains between Afghanistan and Pakistan. That 'nod & a wink' War on Drugs tactic, being silent and thereby condoning, has been policy since 9/11.

Be clear on this - each poppy crop gives local war lords cash and those monies buy RPG's, AK's and the ammunition to fill them. Not the dirty crap from the filthy streets of the local town market - but brand new Chinese merchandise, one of which was a rocket that just killed a 19 year old kid from Hemet, here in California: The 500th member of our armed forces from my state to die in the Iraqi and Afghan conflicts.

So do not attempt to preach to me about my love of drugs - cause that's simply bullshit.

then why are the Marines kicking their ass's out of the fields???? dope addict

LogansPapa
06-21-2008, 11:17 PM
then why are the Marines kicking their ass's out of the fields???? dope addict


As an owner of an FAA Repair Station I'm subjected to a drug and alcohol screening by the federal government every four weeks - so kindly go fuck yourself. You've been taken to school so just stop now and STFU.

AmPat
06-22-2008, 08:25 AM
[QUOTE=LogansPapa;11342]No - not even close. But thanks for playing.

The United States has turned a blind eye to the poppy harvest since our folks let OBL wander up into the mountains between Afghanistan and Pakistan. That 'nod & a wink' War on Drugs tactic, being silent and thereby condoning, has been policy since 9/11.
QUOTE]

It's not quite this simple.

We do indeed ignore many of these fields.as usual, the idealistic way of dealing with this is to destroy every single plant we see. The realistic part of the problem is there is no other crop that these farmers can grow that would come close to replacing the income. Now we can destroy their only means of living and assume their livelihood or we slowly implement change. We are not prepared to take on the entire Afghan population as orphans so until another bright idea comes along, we'll choose to deal with the drugs at another level. This is unsavory to the idealistic among us but it is the hard reality.

LogansPapa
06-22-2008, 12:05 PM
We are not prepared to take on the entire Afghan population as orphans so until another bright idea comes along, we'll choose to deal with the drugs at another level. This is unsavory to the idealistic among us but it is the hard reality.

So using that silly analogy - intercity drug dealers, their friends and families should also have that same transition from selling heroin for $5,000 a day on a local ghetto street corner to government job programs as part of our domestic War on Drugs? Bullshit.

noonwitch
06-23-2008, 08:25 AM
There are legitimate medical uses for opium. Is there not a way to encourage the legitmate sale of opium grown in Afganistan to legitimate pharmacuetical companies? It'd be easier to track the money and those farmers who are turning to the Taliban for protection would have other options.

lacarnut
06-23-2008, 05:07 PM
Just an observation; we subsidize crops in this country. Destroy all or half of theirs and pay them not to plant. After all, the farmers are not the ones that are making big money off the crops.

biccat
06-23-2008, 05:14 PM
So using that silly analogy - intercity drug dealers, their friends and families should also have that same transition from selling heroin for $5,000 a day on a local ghetto street corner to government job programs as part of our domestic War on Drugs? Bullshit.
Intercity drug dealers don't make $5,000/day. They make about $5/hour. Unfortunately this is the only thing they know how to do, and don't realize that they could be making a lot more money actually working in the employment market.

The drug cartels make all the money, and we are paying them through welfare programs.

LogansPapa
06-23-2008, 05:43 PM
Well - getting back to my original point, why are poppy crops all the sudden "BAD" when just last season and ever since 9/11 in fact, they were "OKAY"? Seems like a two-faced policy of pure convenience.

biccat
06-23-2008, 05:53 PM
Well - getting back to my original point, why are poppy crops all the sudden "BAD" when just last season and ever since 9/11 in fact, they were "OKAY"? Seems like a two-faced policy of pure convenience.
From 2006:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/nolpda/ukfs_news/hi/newsid_4705000/4705890.stm?(none)

Royal Marines Commandos from Devon have left their base in the county to be deployed to Afghanistan.
A total of 150 men from 42 Commando, based at Bickleigh, near Plymouth, are going to the volatile Helmand province.
...
They will provide security to help Afghan forces fight the drugs trade in the province, one of the main poppy-growing areas.

Also from 2006:
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-123101054.html?refid=gg_x_02

Afghan authorities backed by the United States and Britain launched an aggressive crop-eradication campaign

From 2007:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/2/story.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10460427

Discussing possible new strategies for coping with the record increase in opium production in Afghanistan, Wood said spraying poppy crops with herbicide was a possibility.

So "why are poppy crops all the sudden 'BAD'?" Because the MSM wants something new to smear the United States with. War casualties in Iraq are down, the economy is starting to come out of its slowdown, President Bush is (finally) taking steps to curb gas prices, Barack Obama is getting endorsements from second world dictators, and the Democrat Congress continues to sit on its hands. Good news for the country, bad news for the Democrats, so the MSM has to come up with something new.

Poppies in Afghanistan are the story du jour, so they plaster it all over the news pages.

lacarnut
06-23-2008, 05:58 PM
From 2006:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/nolpda/ukfs_news/hi/newsid_4705000/4705890.stm?(none)


So "why are poppy crops all the sudden 'BAD'?" Because the MSM wants something new to smear the United States with. War casualties in Iraq are down, the economy is starting to come out of its slowdown, President Bush is (finally) taking steps to curb gas prices, Barack Obama is getting endorsements from second world dictators, and the Democrat Congress continues to sit on its hands. Good news for the country, bad news for the Democrats, so the MSM has to come up with something new.

Poppies in Afghanistan are the story du jour, so they plaster it all over the news pages.

Makes perfect sense to me.

Molon Labe
06-23-2008, 06:56 PM
So using that silly analogy - intercity drug dealers, their friends and families should also have that same transition from selling heroin for $5,000 a day on a local ghetto street corner to government job programs as part of our domestic War on Drugs? Bullshit.

The Marine's may win...but if anyone thinks this will make one dent in the drug trade then you probably believe that McCain and Obama are different too.

The drug war is a joke....Some of us know that the governments simply decides which drugs they willl drug you with....that's all.

AmPat
06-23-2008, 09:17 PM
So using that silly analogy - intercity drug dealers, their friends and families should also have that same transition from selling heroin for $5,000 a day on a local ghetto street corner to government job programs as part of our domestic War on Drugs? Bullshit.

How is that a "silly analogy?"

wilbur
06-24-2008, 07:43 AM
The Marine's may win...but if anyone thinks this will make one dent in the drug trade then you probably believe that McCain and Obama are different too.

The drug war is a joke....Some of us know that the governments simply decides which drugs they willl drug you with....that's all.

Is this about shutting down parts of the Taliban or stopping the drug trade? I'd think marines have better things to do than be lowered to the level of the DEA.

Odysseus
06-24-2008, 11:02 AM
As an owner of an FAA Repair Station I'm subjected to a drug and alcohol screening by the federal government every four weeks - so kindly go fuck yourself. You've been taken to school so just stop now and STFU.

Just because you don't come up hot doesn't mean that you're clean. Federal urinalysis only checks for THC, opiates and cocaine derivatives. They obviously need to expand the screening to include psychedelics, ergot and airplane glue fumes. :p

LogansPapa
06-24-2008, 11:05 AM
Federal urinalysis only checks for THC, opiates and cocaine derivatives.

Under Part 145 - you're a little behind the curve there, Bosco.:rolleyes:

dixierat
06-24-2008, 11:55 AM
Is this about shutting down parts of the Taliban or stopping the drug trade? I'd think marines have better things to do than be lowered to the level of the DEA.

The 2 go hand in hand in Afghanistan. The Taliban hires out people to guard the poppy fields. They use the profits to pay people, buy weapons, and bribe officials.

:cool:

Odysseus
06-24-2008, 12:11 PM
From 2006:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/nolpda/ukfs_news/hi/newsid_4705000/4705890.stm?(none)
Also from 2006:
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-123101054.html?refid=gg_x_02
From 2007:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/2/story.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10460427
So "why are poppy crops all the sudden 'BAD'?" Because the MSM wants something new to smear the United States with. War casualties in Iraq are down, the economy is starting to come out of its slowdown, President Bush is (finally) taking steps to curb gas prices, Barack Obama is getting endorsements from second world dictators, and the Democrat Congress continues to sit on its hands. Good news for the country, bad news for the Democrats, so the MSM has to come up with something new.
Poppies in Afghanistan are the story du jour, so they plaster it all over the news pages.

While I hate to agree with LogansPapa about anything, even a broken clock is right twice a day. The poppy crop is a problem, in that it provides the Taliban with a source of revenue and creates a mutually beneficial alliance between them and local farmers. It's also an easy crop to grow, more so than most food crops, which don't do well in the Afghan climate. Even if you could convince the locals to try growing something else, it's more work for less profit. The trick is to think outside of the box.

Counterinsurgency doctrine requires that you drive a wedge between terrorists and the population, but burning the crop just brings them closer together. The trick is to find a way to price the Taliban out of the market. What we ought to be doing is setting up a competing network to buy the crop and sell it to pharmaceutical firms for morphine production. This puts the farmers into a mutually beneficial relationship with the government and cuts out the Taliban, which will fall back on extortion and robbery for revenues, which will alienate them from the locals.

LogansPapa
06-24-2008, 12:22 PM
Shades of Columbia. ;)

Molon Labe
06-24-2008, 12:41 PM
Yeah just what we need....more f'n government regulations on drugs....
The drug war has worked so well. :rolleyes:

Odysseus
06-24-2008, 09:20 PM
Yeah just what we need....more f'n government regulations on drugs....
The drug war has worked so well. :rolleyes:

Kind of missing the point there. The issue is that the Taliban makes money off of the poppy crop, which it then spends on the global jihad. Frankly, I don't care if you zombiefy yourself (as long as you don't get behind the wheel of a car in my neighborhood under the influence), but I would like to win the war.

LogansPapa
06-25-2008, 11:15 AM
Point is - terrorists have made money off it since 9/11. We made efforts to make it appear as though we were doing something about that in during the years in-between then and now, because the warlords kept a relative peace. Stop with the hypocrisy already - and stop pretending the entire world doesn’t see the fallacy.

Molon Labe
06-26-2008, 04:29 PM
Kind of missing the point there. The issue is that the Taliban makes money off of the poppy crop, which it then spends on the global jihad. Frankly, I don't care if you zombiefy yourself (as long as you don't get behind the wheel of a car in my neighborhood under the influence), but I would like to win the war.

Sorry I got a little off track...

Dont' think that drug use would fly in my civilian job or in my reserve unit....but that has nothing to do with the fact that you actually believe our fed cares seriously to cripple Opium production in the drug trade. It's highly unlikely that "winning the war" against the Taliban will be the result of destroying poppy fields. It's ever happened. Hell..we can't even do that on our own turf. We may see some headlines and footage of some fields being wrecked from time to time...but the trade keeps on moving doesn't it?. It's also not up to the U.S. military to be Narcotics agents. Let the Coast Guard do that.

Your point about counterinsurgency is also well taken about driving the "wedge" between the insurgency and the population. I completely agree that is at least one major goal of any successful nation building excursion. So.....
Why do we accept the fact that the talking heads in "Dubya's" camp didn't listen to the military experts or experts in Musllim affairs over the last 8 years? And Why instead did we accept baseless crap about how tribal societies just love Democracy and want to be the West's buddies? Not to mention how those failed doctrines managed to completely destroy your primary point about winning a war and allowed the insurgency and the population to become a blend.
I voted for this dunce twice mind you.

namvet
06-26-2008, 06:52 PM
and their killing them

http://youtube.com/watch?v=KCO95uFf2pk

Molon Labe
06-26-2008, 07:54 PM
and their killing them

http://youtube.com/watch?v=KCO95uFf2pk

And they are so ignorant they don't even realize what they are doing to themselves. But it's still their culture...
And we think a tribal 7th century culture can or want to grasp concepts such as a federal republic or liberal democracy?