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sofa king
06-22-2008, 03:00 AM
remember this guy?

the "photojournalist" that couldn't be bothered with respecting police lines or commands?

well,

"DU photographer convicted of failing to show sufficient respect to police..."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3474931

ouch, mr. photojournalist. i guess there are some rules we all have to follow. but if you bitch and complain rather loudly enough?

sometimes the good guys get to smack your ass down.

booya. ouch, mr. photojournalist...

AmPat
06-22-2008, 08:33 AM
I don't like that "properly differential to the police" line but I can understand when it comes to many of these Liberal idiots where a good tazing is in order.

I've observed many police, mostly on TV, some personally, who desrved to be arrested themselves. They have a hard, thankless job but some tend to fall woefully short on professionalism.

Cold Warrior
06-22-2008, 08:52 AM
RaginInMiami is an idiot, but I have to side with the DUmmies on this one. If you read his blog, he was found Not Guilty on two misdemeoners, including "failure to obey a police order," and Guilty of "resisting arrest without violence." This looks like a situation where he stopped to take pictures of an arrest, something he has a perfectly legal right to do, and was told by the police to go away, something they do not have the right to do unless he was interferring with the arrest (whcih he apparently wasn't). So after he refuses, they arrest him to which he doesn't "violently resist," i.e., he did not physically resist. So, how do you resist otherwise? Say "no I don't want to be arrested!" ?

This seems like a clear cut mis-use of police authority. The DUmmies are right.

FDK
06-22-2008, 09:28 AM
Sounds to me like the conviction was spot on. You do not have a right to resist arrest merely because you think what the cops are charging you with is wrong. Otherwise everyone who thought they were being falsely charged would be able to resist arrest without facing any consequences. If you feel you are being charged unfairly you should let yourself be arrested and then pursue the matter in the judicial system. Note that the cops do not have the right ot find him guilty on the spot, merely to charge him. Similarly, he does not have the right to find himself innocent on the spot. I suspect that this is why a JURY convicted him.

The cops were probably being pricks but all he did was prove that he's a bigger one.

A DUmmie named RaginginMiami gets sentenced to anger management. :D

Cold Warrior
06-22-2008, 09:36 AM
Sounds to me like the conviction was spot on. You do not have a right to resist arrest merely because you think what the cops are charging you with is wrong. Otherwise everyone who thought they were being falsely charged would be able to resist arrest without facing any consequences. If you feel you are being charged unfairly you should let yourself be arrested and then pursue the matter in the judicial system. Note that the cops do not have the right ot find him guilty on the spot, merely to charge him. Similarly, he does not have the right to find himself innocent on the spot. I suspect that this is why a JURY convicted him.

The cops were probably being pricks but all he did was prove that he's a bigger one.

A DUmmie named RaginginMiami gets sentenced to anger management. :D

While what you say is correct, it opens the door for a wide range of abuses and this seems like one of them. Given the morass of laws, regulations, and restrictions we have in this country, the cops can always find something to arrest you for 24/7 if they so desire. If you then "non violently" resist, I'm still not sure how you do that, you can be convicted of a misdemeoner (which, in this day and age of integrated communications, is not insignificant) that is a result of nothing you originally did.

It sounds like that's what happened here. In such cases, wherein the only conviction is of that of resisting, some sort of independent review of the cops' actions needs to be required.

FDK
06-22-2008, 09:43 AM
If you then "non violently" resist, I'm still not sure how you do that,

My guess is that if they tell you that you under arrest and you backtalk or tell them they can't or sit down and not comply with their orders, all without getting physical, that would consitute non-violent resistance.

I'm not a lawyer- but I do play one on the Internets.:D

Cold Warrior
06-22-2008, 10:14 AM
My guess is that if they tell you that you under arrest and you backtalk or tell them they can't or sit down and not comply with their orders, all without getting physical, that would consitute non-violent resistance.

I'm not a lawyer- but I do play one on the Internets.:D

DOH! You're right obviously. Thanks.

newshutr
06-22-2008, 11:58 AM
As a news videographer I've been in RIM's position numerous times. I've been told to move from an area that the public had access to but I was singled out because I had a news camera. I've told the cop that I had a right to be there because the public was there. I was threatened with arrest. I moved.

I then called our desk and they called the PIO. The PIO found me and moved me CLOSER to the scene and chewed out the cop that told me to move.

It's a tightrope walk. You need to do your job but you have to be smart about it. Not a smart ass.

ultimately the cop will win because you'll wind up in a holding cell for a few hours minus your shoelaces and belt.

RIM deserved what he got. My professional opinion.

Cold Warrior
06-22-2008, 12:03 PM
As a news videographer I've been in RIM's position numerous times. I've been told to move from an area that the public had access to but I was singled out because I had a news camera. I've told the cop that I had a right to be there because the public was there. I was threatened with arrest. I moved.

I then called our desk and they called the PIO. The PIO found me and moved me CLOSER to the scene and chewed out the cop that told me to move.

It's a tightrope walk. You need to do your job but you have to be smart about it. Not a smart ass.

ultimately the cop will win because you'll wind up in a holding cell for a few hours minus your shoelaces and belt.

RIM deserved what he got. My professional opinion.

There is no question that, as you point out, RIM could have handled it better and almost certainly mouthed off to the cops. However, as far as I know, being a smart ass is not against the law and cops should not be given the discretion to make it so.

Bubba Dawg
06-22-2008, 12:12 PM
I believe in being respectful to the police. But deferential? No.

They work for me. I don't work for them.

I am a citizen, not a subject.

Most police officers are excellent and professional. I appreciate what they do.

But if our constitutional rights don't exist on the street where we live, then they are merely theoretical and don't actually exist in any real sense at all.

Having said that, This DU Photographer was an ass.

Shannon
06-22-2008, 12:20 PM
However, as far as I know, being a smart ass is not against the law and cops should not be given the discretion to make it so.

Kind of a funny story...years ago my best friend was arrested for resisting arrest. Long story short, her dad had started mouthing off to someone at the bar ( I was bartending) and someone thought there might be a fight and called the cops. Cops show up and dad wouldn't behave so my best friend kept trying to quiet him down and settle everything. Cops warned her to stop talking. She didn't. They arrested her for resisting arrest. My thought was "how can you be resisting arrest when all they did was tell you to be quiet?". Anyway, I got to call her mom and explain that her daughter and husband were in jail.:eek:

LogansPapa
06-22-2008, 01:02 PM
My feelings on the 1st Amendment is that your right to mouth off, when a police officer is attempting to secure and maintain peace, is momentarily suspended - when that officer says so. Like getting stopped in your vehicle - when he advises you of his intent to control the situation, say when you've got a couple of buddies in your car, you're under temporary arrest. Best to just STFU and answer exactly what is asked of you - and you'll accelerate your extrication from that situation. Also best to keep in mind that the police have all day to make your stop - in a car or on foot - a living Hell and some are just looking for a mouthy smartass to exercise on.

Cold Warrior
06-22-2008, 01:04 PM
Kind of a funny story...years ago my best friend was arrested for resisting arrest. Long story short, her dad had started mouthing off to someone at the bar ( I was bartending) and someone thought there might be a fight and called the cops. Cops show up and dad wouldn't behave so my best friend kept trying to quiet him down and settle everything. Cops warned her to stop talking. She didn't. They arrested her for resisting arrest. My thought was "how can you be resisting arrest when all they did was tell you to be quiet?". Anyway, I got to call her mom and explain that her daughter and husband were in jail.:eek:

Reminds one of what Kerouac said of the police in On the Road (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Road) back in the early 50's...


The American police are involved in psychological warfare against those Americans who don't frighten them with imposing papers and threats. It's a Victorian police force; it peers out of musty windows and wants to inquire about everything, and can make crimes if the crimes don't exist to its satisfaction.

FDK
06-22-2008, 04:03 PM
One framework for how cops treat people:

When you are first approached by a cop, depending on the siutation, they classify you as either a citizen or an asshole. If you're classified by them as a citizen and you maintain proper respect you will retain your classification as a citizen and be treated accordingly. But, if you mouth off or disrespect them or start playing street lawyer, you are quickly reclassified as an asshole and that's how you'll be treaated. You can go from being a citizen to an asshole in their eyes but the converse is generally not true.

If you've been classified as an asshole your best bet is to just STFU and do what you're told.

Cops do not work for YOU. They are public servants, not private servants.

Police are trained to gain and maintain control of a situation. It's their job. The more you try to control a situation the harder they will be on you. RaginginMiami found that out the hard way.

Some cops are good, some are bad. If you're lucky you get a good one.

Bubba Dawg
06-22-2008, 07:46 PM
One framework for how cops treat people:

When you are first approached by a cop, depending on the siutation, they classify you as either a citizen or an asshole. If you're classified by them as a citizen and you maintain proper respect you will retain your classification as a citizen and be treated accordingly. But, if you mouth off or disrespect them or start playing street lawyer, you are quickly reclassified as an asshole and that's how you'll be treaated. You can go from being a citizen to an asshole in their eyes but the converse is generally not true.

If you've been classified as an asshole your best bet is to just STFU and do what you're told.

Cops do not work for YOU. They are public servants, not private servants.

Police are trained to gain and maintain control of a situation. It's their job. The more you try to control a situation the harder they will be on you. RaginginMiami found that out the hard way.

Some cops are good, some are bad. If you're lucky you get a good one.

When I first approach or am approached by a police officer, I classify him or her as either a decent professional, or as a badeg-heavy asshole. Both exist.

My rights should not be subject to the whim of opinion or 'classification' of a cop who is an asshole.

Either way, he or she does work for ME because I am a member of the public that offers him or her employment.

FDK
06-22-2008, 08:32 PM
When I first approach or am approached by a police officer, I classify him or her as either a decent professional, or as a badeg-heavy asshole. Both exist.

My rights should not be subject to the whim of opinion or 'classification' of a cop who is an asshole.

Either way, he or she does work for ME because I am a member of the public that offers him or her employment.

He DOES NOT work for YOU. If he did he woudln't give you speeding tickets. He works for the society as a whole, not it's individual members. But keep that attitude and you'll be classified as an asshole every single time. And what's your DU name? Obviously you think society and the country should revolve around YOU.

sofa king
06-23-2008, 04:34 AM
ummm...

my personal opinion... when an officer of the law tells me to step away? i step away.

when officers of the law are trying to get control of a situation, i let them.

if i am a self-important blogger with a camera and i automatically assume that because i believe myself some sort of "half-assed" journalist because i am a blogger with a camera, and above the law...

well, then proceed at your own risk. you go, bloggers.



if society, later and after having reviewed the facts, makes the blogger pay a price for his arrogance? so be it...



be loud. be proud. bloggers. but if your ass winds up in jail? stfu...

AmPat
06-23-2008, 05:18 AM
My guess is that if they tell you that you under arrest and you backtalk or tell them they can't or sit down and not comply with their orders, all without getting physical, that would consitute non-violent resistance.

I'm not a lawyer- but I do play one on the Internets.:D
This is only a personal example of police assholism that could happen to anyone:

I was walking in a group of thousands along a narrow walk to attend a college football game. There was a fence on one side and street on the other. I had my two children with me and we were toward the outside of the crowd on the street side.

The crowd was 90% drunk already and I was attempting to keep my children shielded. We were pushed out into the street about 1 foot for approximately 10 seconds when a booming voice asked if I was "stupid or what?" I replied to the answer that "no I was not stupid." Apparently Officer Asshole wanted me to answer in the affirmative so he signalled me over and asked if "I had been drinking and had I ever been arrested." I said "Yes" and "No" respectively and he aswered, "well that's about to change."

Bottom line:
I did not get arrested.
He was and is most likely still an asshole. :mad:
I was not doing anything wrong or illegal. :mad:
I no longer drink.:cool:

The police should not be allowed to arrest anyone for subjective reasons. There needs to be some restraint on these guys. I'm not anti-police,, but I am president of the anti-asshole league.

Cold Warrior
06-23-2008, 06:52 AM
Let's face it. A large number of the police in this country are persons who couldn't get a job doing anything else and enjoy their little power trips. If you look at, for example, the show Cops, you'll see numerous instances wherein a cop stops a car, is suspicious that the car may contain drugs (particularly that evil, mind-bending marijuana), effectively tells the guy he's going to search his car (asks his permission and tells him if he doesn't give it, he'll wait there until the sniffer dogs get there), and finds a minor stash of drugs. Think about it, folks. For every incident that they televise wherein the cop actually find drugs, there's probably 10 in which the same sequence of events takes place and he finds nothing. But, in lieu of getting laid by his fat wife that evening, he's gotten off by intimidating some poor schmuck.

Being a police officer in our country today (I don't know if it was different in the past) does not attract the "best and the brightest," but all too often the "dumbest and the desparate." How could it be otherwise given the salaries offered. In NYC, that bastion of Law and Order, cops make a starting salary of $25000. While we'd like to think of them as Lanny Brisco or Joe Friday, they are more often than not Chief Wiggam (at best).

biccat
06-23-2008, 09:08 AM
Let's face it. A large number of the police in this country are persons who couldn't get a job doing anything else and enjoy their little power trips. If you look at, for example, the show Cops, you'll see numerous instances wherein a cop stops a car, is suspicious that the car may contain drugs (particularly that evil, mind-bending marijuana), effectively tells the guy he's going to search his car (asks his permission and tells him if he doesn't give it, he'll wait there until the sniffer dogs get there), and finds a minor stash of drugs.
In my Criminal Procedures class at law school, after we reviewed a case and topic, we would watch an episode of COPS to see exactly how it is not supposed to be done.

However, although there are a lot of cops who are jerks, there are a lot that are just trying to do their job and don't like it when some "photojournalist" starts shouting about free speech and his rights, especially when the cop knows he is acting appropriately. The cops have one line in this story, the DUmmie has another. The truth lies somewhere in the middle, and I would wager that the police officer was not singling out this guy.

Besides, community service and probation isn't a harsh sentence. Don't DUmmies always brag about how they love to help the community? 100 hours should be easy!

Cold Warrior
06-23-2008, 09:53 AM
In my Criminal Procedures class at law school, after we reviewed a case and topic, we would watch an episode of COPS to see exactly how it is not supposed to be done.

However, although there are a lot of cops who are jerks, there are a lot that are just trying to do their job and don't like it when some "photojournalist" starts shouting about free speech and his rights, especially when the cop knows he is acting appropriately. The cops have one line in this story, the DUmmie has another. The truth lies somewhere in the middle, and I would wager that the police officer was not singling out this guy.

Besides, community service and probation isn't a harsh sentence. Don't DUmmies always brag about how they love to help the community? 100 hours should be easy!

Agreed that the truth probably lies someplace in the middle. However, I think the most probable scenario is that this guy started shooting photos, the cops told him to take a hike, he refused claiming "freedom of the press," and they arrested him. While cops are all for filming suspects in all locations, often times in violation of their civil rights, they really, really don't like people filming or photographing them unless it's guaranteed to be good publicity like Cops.

As to it being a harsh sentence, counselor, it's a misdemeanour! Employers now not only ask if you've been convicted of a felony, they include misdemeanours as well. I know that in my line of work, dealing with large financial institutions, even a misdemeanour is a "death sentence."

biccat
06-23-2008, 10:03 AM
As to it being a harsh sentence, counselor, it's a misdemeanour! Employers now not only ask if you've been convicted of a felony, they include misdemeanours as well. I know that in my line of work, dealing with large financial institutions, even a misdemeanour is a "death sentence."
He was going to be found guilty of a misdemeanor anyway, he was complaining (either in the thread or on his blog, can't remember which) that the sentence was too harsh. Whether it was 100 hours of community service and a year of probation, or 12 hours and a month, it is still a misdemeanor.

The prosecutor probably gave him a chance to plea out to a lesser charge that wasn't a misdemeanor, but he decided to take a chance with a trial, and worse, a jury.

lacarnut
06-23-2008, 10:49 AM
Whether at a crime scene or a traffic stop, the police want complete control. If you do not understand that, you are not too bright. I have been stopped many times for speeding and have talked my way out of most tickets by showing respect. I think for the most part that the cops do a great job and have a job that I sure as hell would not want. Sure there are some bad apples but if you want to be an asshole, go ahead and shoot your mouth off if it makes you feel better. Just be prepared to suffer the consequences.

CLibertarian
06-23-2008, 12:15 PM
Whether at a crime scene or a traffic stop, the police want complete control. If you do not understand that, you are not too bright. I have been stopped many times for speeding and have talked my way out of most tickets by showing respect. I think for the most part that the cops do a great job and have a job that I sure as hell would not want. Sure there are some bad apples but if you want to be an asshole, go ahead and shoot your mouth off if it makes you feel better. Just be prepared to suffer the consequences.

In a past life, I worked in hospitial security while attending college. I came to understand some of the crap that cops have to endure in their usually thankless jobs. Yes, there are some bad ones on power trips and others that are outright crooked. However, most are good and deserve our general respect until they demonstrate otherwise.

LogansPapa
06-23-2008, 12:22 PM
S.O.P. in my town when getting stopped at night is:

1./ Roll your window down.
2./ Put BOTH of your hands on the dash.

I learned this when a guy I went to high school told me when he makes a stop at night he walks up on the car with his flash light in one hand, his mic open, and a baby Glock 26 strapped to the back of his metal clip board.

Yes Sir. :cool:

Odysseus
06-23-2008, 12:23 PM
Whether at a crime scene or a traffic stop, the police want complete control. If you do not understand that, you are not too bright. I have been stopped many times for speeding and have talked my way out of most tickets by showing respect. I think for the most part that the cops do a great job and have a job that I sure as hell would not want. Sure there are some bad apples but if you want to be an asshole, go ahead and shoot your mouth off if it makes you feel better. Just be prepared to suffer the consequences.

Keep in mind that, unlike a civilian, the police officer has a radio and is in touch with others in the area, so he has a better situational awareness than the crowd that he is trying to control. He will have information that a blogger with a camera won't have, and if he's been told to clear an area or get it under control quickly because something is going on a block or two away, then he's got to do that, and anyone who impedes him without knowing all of the facts may be endangering themself or others. An idiot who starts talking about his personal "right" to observe and record the police while they do their jobs, instead of backing off, is interfering with law enforcement.

And, if you are polite and respectful and the cop still treats you badly, document it and file a complaint. When a civilian complaint review board reviews the complaint, they will investigate the officer's conduct and yours, and if you did what you were told to do, and didn't make a scene, and were still spoken to in an abusive or disrespectful manner, or worse, they will come down on the officer.

CLibertarian
06-23-2008, 12:30 PM
Keep in mind that, unlike a civilian, the police officer has a radio and is in touch with others in the area, so he has a better situational awareness than the crowd that he is trying to control. He will have information that a blogger with a camera won't have, and if he's been told to clear an area or get it under control quickly because something is going on a block or two away, then he's got to do that, and anyone who impedes him without knowing all of the facts may be endangering themself or others. An idiot who starts talking about his personal "right" to observe and record the police while they do their jobs, instead of backing off, is interfering with law enforcement.

And, if you are polite and respectful and the cop still treats you badly, document it and file a complaint. When a civilian complaint review board reviews the complaint, they will investigate the officer's conduct and yours, and if you did what you were told to do, and didn't make a scene, and were still spoken to in an abusive or disrespectful manner, or worse, they will come down on the officer.

That's usually true in larger cities and urban areas. Those departments are larger enough to have internal politics that make the officers have to watch their P&Q's. In the small towns, they all tend to cover for one another too closely. Even the good ones have trouble getting bad ones reprimanded. It's better to make your complaints to the state police even though they will initially try to get you to make your complaint at a more local level.

Odysseus
06-24-2008, 02:04 PM
That's usually true in larger cities and urban areas. Those departments are larger enough to have internal politics that make the officers have to watch their P&Q's. In the small towns, they all tend to cover for one another too closely. Even the good ones have trouble getting bad ones reprimanded. It's better to make your complaints to the state police even though they will initially try to get you to make your complaint at a more local level.

This is true. Funny thing is, since moving to Texas, I've gotten two speeding tickets, but the police (both locals) couldn't have been nicer. Made it almost worth the fine for their company.