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Gingersnap
01-23-2009, 10:30 AM
Winner in 100-0 girls game wants forfeit

Associated Press
Jan. 22, 2009, 2:18PM

Tony Gutierrez AP

DALLAS A Texas high school girls basketball team on the winning end of a 100-0 game has a case of blowout remorse.

Now officials from the winning school say they are trying to do the right thing by seeking a forfeit and apologizing for the margin of victory.

In a statement Thursday on The Covenant School's Web site, the head of school said, "It is shameful and an embarrassment that this happened.'' He went on to say that Covenant has made "a formal request to forfeit the game recognizing that a victory without honor is a great loss.''

Last week Covenant, a private Christian school in Dallas, defeated Dallas Academy 100-0. Covenant was up 59-0 at halftime.

A parent who attended the game told The Associated Press that Covenant continued to make 3-pointers - even in the fourth quarter. She praised the Covenant players but said spectators and an assistant coach were cheering wildly as their team edged closer to 100 points.

"I think the bad judgment was in the full-court press and the 3-point shots,'' said Renee Peloza, whose daughter plays for Dallas Academy. "At some point, they should have backed off.''

Dallas Academy coach Jeremy Civello told The Dallas Morning News that the game turned into a "layup drill,'' with the opposing team's guards waiting to steal the ball and drive to the basket. Covenant scored 12 points in the fourth quarter and "finally eased up when they got to 100 with about four minutes left,'' he said.

Dallas Academy has eight girls on its varsity team and about 20 girls in its high school. It is winless over the last four seasons. The academy boasts of its small class sizes and specializes in teaching students struggling with "learning differences,'' such as short attention spans or dyslexia.

This piece covers concepts that have broader implications than an ordinary Sports topic so I'm putting it up here.

Chron (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/6224985.html)

linda22003
01-23-2009, 10:33 AM
Apologizing for the margin of victory? Completely aside from the fact that this is a girls' team, that's pussy.

noonwitch
01-23-2009, 10:47 AM
Maybe a school that specializes in educating girls with special needs doesn't need to be playing basketball games against a general school.

Space Gravy
01-23-2009, 10:47 AM
I think that trend in youth sports where everyone gets a trophy and we don't keep score is silly. But how about a little common sense? If a lead gets up to 40 or 50 points in high school football or basketball let's call it a day.

signalsgt
01-23-2009, 10:49 AM
Don't apologize!!!

You play 100% till the buzzer.

The only thing that is unecessary would be if the winning team were going for circus shots or trick passes and acting like the Harlem Globetrotters.

Good game girls!!!

:)

linda22003
01-23-2009, 10:50 AM
Maybe a school that specializes in educating girls with special needs doesn't need to be playing basketball games against a general school.

The special needs are "short attention span" and "dyslexia". It's not like they whomped a girls' team playing from wheelchairs.

Space Gravy
01-23-2009, 10:52 AM
The special needs are "short attention span" and "dyslexia". It's not like they whomped a girls' team playing from wheelchairs.

Maybe they thought they only lost 001 - 0?

Gingersnap
01-23-2009, 10:57 AM
Maybe they thought they only lost 001 - 0?

Now that's funny! :D

linda22003
01-23-2009, 12:00 PM
Now that's funny! :D

I'm not proud of myself for this at all, but yes - yes, it is. :p

BadCat
01-23-2009, 12:06 PM
Back in the old days, Georgia Tech beat Cumberland 222-0 in a college football game.
Where was the outrage?

noonwitch
01-23-2009, 12:07 PM
The special needs are "short attention span" and "dyslexia". It's not like they whomped a girls' team playing from wheelchairs.


I'm reading between the lines, as someone who works with kids of all different need levels. Kids who are in a special school because they have a short attention span or dyslexia usually have other issues, too, or they would be able to maintain in a regular school setting. I don't mean wheelchairs, I mean emotional issues.

Gingersnap
01-23-2009, 12:38 PM
I'm reading between the lines, as someone who works with kids of all different need levels. Kids who are in a special school because they have a short attention span or dyslexia usually have other issues, too, or they would be able to maintain in a regular school setting. I don't mean wheelchairs, I mean emotional issues.

I think your point is well taken, though. "Competition" kind of automatically involves sorting people out into different skill levels. The loser kids here probably shouldn't have been matched up against a team with normal competitive goals.

The Special Olympics are heart-warming and all but they aren't interesting in terms of athletic performance. Playing on a team may be fun for these kids but they shouldn't kid themselves that they are playing at the same level as the other kids. A four year losing streak is a pretty strong indication that you are doing it wrong.

However, there's no reason why the winning team should forfeit. The losers don't magically gain skills or drive from that and the winners take home mixed messages about what fair competition is all about.

linda22003
01-23-2009, 12:44 PM
the winners take home mixed messages about what fair competition is all about.

So, it prepares them for life in America today. :cool:

BadCat
01-23-2009, 12:56 PM
So, it prepares them for life in America today. :cool:

I agree.
A small sporting trauma is good preparation for what life has in store for you.

Gingersnap
01-23-2009, 12:56 PM
So, it prepares them for life in America today. :cool:

True but don't you think they already feel cynical and bitter about achievement when they are forced to be graded as teams in academics and constantly told that hard work never trumps skin color or sex?

Let's give them a vacation from lunacy on the athletic field, at least. :D

PoliCon
01-23-2009, 01:15 PM
You don't bulid selfworth by giving people excuses and crutches. If these girls want to do what's right - they should go to the other school and have practices with them to help them build their skills and play better so that the next time - they might not lose so badly.

noonwitch
01-23-2009, 01:54 PM
The softball league I played in as a kid had a mercy rule-no team could score more than 5 runs in an inning. It was more to prevent unending games than to protect kids' feelings, though.

FlaGator
01-23-2009, 02:46 PM
Apologizing for the margin of victory? Completely aside from the fact that this is a girls' team, that's pussy.

Linda!!!!!!! :eek:

:D:D:D

Phillygirl
01-23-2009, 02:54 PM
The score should not have been run up like that. Once it's a 50 + point lead at half-time, put in all your scrubs. Let the other side score a basket or so. You don't need to forfeit, but it doesn't have to be humiliating either. There's such a thing as graciousness in winning that should have been remembered during the game. I am glad that they remembered it afterwards, at least.

PoliCon
01-23-2009, 03:59 PM
so we should teach our kids to only put in half efforts?

Phillygirl
01-23-2009, 04:09 PM
so we should teach our kids to only put in half efforts?

Nope. We teach our kids that once you've won, there is not a reason to shove it in the other side's face.

edit: sometimes there's a reason, but this game there wasn't.

PoliCon
01-23-2009, 04:24 PM
Nope. We teach our kids that once you've won, there is not a reason to shove it in the other side's face.

edit: sometimes there's a reason, but this game there wasn't.um . . . you realize that that is socialism right?

FlaGator
01-23-2009, 05:34 PM
The score should not have been run up like that. Once it's a 50 + point lead at half-time, put in all your scrubs. Let the other side score a basket or so. You don't need to forfeit, but it doesn't have to be humiliating either. There's such a thing as graciousness in winning that should have been remembered during the game. I am glad that they remembered it afterwards, at least.

Actually this is fairly simple. One team did their job (scored points and stopped the other team from scoring points) and the other team failed at their job miserably. The fact that one team hammered the point home is no reason to apologize. I don't every recall Bill Gates apologizing for being as successful as he is.

Phillygirl
01-23-2009, 05:47 PM
um . . . you realize that that is socialism right?

Socialism? Ummm, no. It's called grace in winning.

Arroyo_Doble
01-23-2009, 05:53 PM
I don't every recall Bill Gates apologizing for being as successful as he is.

True. But he doesn't go down to homeless shelters and light cigars with hundred dollar bills either.

Phillygirl
01-23-2009, 05:53 PM
Actually this is fairly simple. One team did their job (scored points and stopped the other team from scoring points) and the other team failed at their job miserably. The fact that one team hammered the point home is no reason to apologize. I don't every recall Bill Gates apologizing for being as successful as he is.

I don't think winning is cause for apologies. There is a lot more to learn in high school sports than what the scoreboard says.

Don't get me wrong, I am completely opposed to the "everybody gets a trophy" attitude that has crept into society. However, the Chinese have a long tradition of the value of "saving face". It is a great life lesson for kids to learn that part of being successful is knowing when to let the other side "save face". That doesn't mean that you roll over. That doesn't mean that you stop trying to succeed. It does mean that when you do succeed, you are as gracious in your winning as you should be in your losing. It's harder, sometimes, to accept graciousness in success than it is in defeat.

I deal with this issue constantly in negotiations. Too many people think that negotiating means you get every nickel on the table. Instead, it's knowing when which nickels are most important to get, and letting the other side have a few, so that the most valuable ones you still get.

I never played a sport that there wasn't a point when the coaches knew the game had been decided, and it's time now to put the scrubs in and refrain from absolute humiliation for the other team.

Again, while I don't think the team needs to apologize for winning, I do think they ought to look at themselves and determine if they acted like true winners, or if they acted like asses.

PoliCon
01-23-2009, 06:49 PM
Socialism? Ummm, no. It's called grace in winning.Nope. Grace in winning is playing your best - and winning without gloating. It is not holding yourself back so as to let the other team get part of what is yours by right of skill and effort - which is socialism. :p

Phillygirl
01-23-2009, 06:57 PM
Nope. Grace in winning is playing your best - and winning without gloating. It is not holding yourself back so as to let the other team get part of what is yours by right of skill and effort - which is socialism. :p

Running the score up to 100 is gloating. :p

PoliCon
01-23-2009, 07:28 PM
Running the score up to 100 is gloating. :pNo their attitude during that might have been gloating - but the score itself was now.

Gingersnap
01-23-2009, 08:22 PM
Running the score up to 100 is gloating. :p

Maybe, but not winning a game in 4 years shows a level of blind ignorance on somebody's part. Either the coach is simply evil or the school administration believes that throwing their students to the wolves repeatedly offers some kind of "lesson".

Either way, an adult is using these kids to score points (not game points) in a twisted kind of way. Now that's really unsporting.

Maybe these kids would be killer ping-pong players or Texas Hold 'Em champs or rope jumpers. In real life, people build on their strengths. Everybody has something that they are good at and basketball clearly isn't the answer here.

Phillygirl
01-23-2009, 08:30 PM
Maybe, but not winning a game in 4 years shows a level of blind ignorance on somebody's part. Either the coach is simply evil or the school administration believes that throwing their students to the wolves repeatedly offers some kind of "lesson".

Either way, an adult is using these kids to score points (not game points) in a twisted kind of way. Now that's really unsporting.

Maybe these kids would be killer ping-pong players or Texas Hold 'Em champs or rope jumpers. In real life, people build on their strengths. Everybody has something that they are good at and basketball clearly isn't the answer here.

It's high school. Usually people spend 4 years there. At what point do you stop hosting a team...1 year, figuring they're not going to improve? Or 2 years?

Maybe one of the stars from the "normal" schools will have a traumatic event in their lives, go fully blown ADD, and then get sent to the school, giving them hope for a championship season...or at least a basket or two.

Honestly, I don't see the issue here. So the kids suck. Okay. That doesn't mean that the opposing team needs to have layup practice on them. If the kids hated losing so much I would assume they'd quit the team. Perhaps they still liked playing and saw some improvement.

FlaGator
01-23-2009, 08:48 PM
True. But he doesn't go down to homeless shelters and light cigars with hundred dollar bills either.

Poor comparision...apples and oranges. He was known for putting competitors out of business and rolling over the competition.

Gingersnap
01-23-2009, 08:51 PM
It's high school. Usually people spend 4 years there. At what point do you stop hosting a team...1 year, figuring they're not going to improve? Or 2 years?

It is high school. Usually kids on teams have been playing for a while. I mean, normally you don't suddenly decide to try out in your senior year. In this school that may well be the case. These are kids who have been diverted or marginalized (depending on your viewpoint) out of regular school. They probably don't bring years of athletic experience and practice to the table.

These kids may lack the experience to be competitive against schools with athletic formation programs (which nowadays starts in grade school). Why not try ping-pong or something else? It's not like doing so would jeopardize their budding pro careers.

AmPat
01-23-2009, 08:58 PM
If their pool of potential players is only 20, the odds are that they will have maybe one girl who can play. Sounds like they couldn't even handle the ball. This game takes years to master the basics. By high school, they either can play already or they will more than likely never play with skill.

The opposing coach may have already had all his "scrubs" in the game and they were several skill levels above their opponents. I coached teams that fouled out where we payed 4 on five. We lost but kept playing.

Bubba Dawg
01-23-2009, 09:06 PM
The special needs are "short attention span" and "dyslexia". It's not like they whomped a girls' team playing from wheelchairs.


That also describes the NBA. I mean, I'm just sayin'....

Celtic Rose
01-23-2009, 11:23 PM
It is high school. Usually kids on teams have been playing for a while. I mean, normally you don't suddenly decide to try out in your senior year. In this school that may well be the case. These are kids who have been diverted or marginalized (depending on your viewpoint) out of regular school. They probably don't bring years of athletic experience and practice to the table.

These kids may lack the experience to be competitive against schools with athletic formation programs (which nowadays starts in grade school). Why not try ping-pong or something else? It's not like doing so would jeopardize their budding pro careers.

I say that unless it is a financial issue, if the girls want to keep playing basketball, the school should keep supporting them. I would encourage them to find another league if possible, but I doubt that the school is forcing any of the players to play.