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FlaGator
01-30-2009, 07:01 PM
Interesting...

www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2CaBR3z85c

Gingersnap
01-30-2009, 10:36 PM
No, he wasn't and good on Mom for seeing it through. Regardless of how we view his political ascendancy, she did the right thing during an era when some in her class just flew to Puerto Rico.

BSR
01-30-2009, 10:52 PM
Hmmm, I like that.. It turns the tables on the pro-abortion crowd and their leader.

Fergus
01-31-2009, 01:28 AM
You could say the same for the fetus that became Adolf Hitler or Mao Zedong or Ted Kennedy. Whats your point? That if a woman makes a decision to abort then another Nobel Prize winning genius goes down the drain and there goes humanity?

Guess what, not all Republicans are god fearing christians. Some of us don't believe in god and we're not superstitious either.

Unless we step on a crack 'cause we don't want to break our mother's back.


Acid Rain
Global Warming
Abortion
Taxes
Rap Music
Muslims
Christians
Bush
Obama
Ford
Chevy
Cardinals
Steelers


Yawn.

FlaGator
01-31-2009, 08:51 AM
You could say the same for the fetus that became Adolf Hitler or Mao Zedong or Ted Kennedy. Whats your point? That if a woman makes a decision to abort then another Nobel Prize winning genius goes down the drain and there goes humanity?

Guess what, not all Republicans are god fearing christians. Some of us don't believe in god and we're not superstitious either.

Unless we step on a crack 'cause we don't want to break our mother's back.


Acid Rain
Global Warming
Abortion
Taxes
Rap Music
Muslims
Christians
Bush
Obama
Ford
Chevy
Cardinals
Steelers


Yawn.

The point is that every child/fetus has a right to become whoever he or she is fated to become, be it Albert Einstein or Aloph Hilter.

linda22003
01-31-2009, 10:42 AM
The point is that every child/fetus has a right to become whoever he or she is fated to become, be it Albert Einstein or Aloph Hilter.

I've never even HEARD of Aloph Hitler. Was he a relative of the German dictator's?

FlaGator
01-31-2009, 12:12 PM
I've never even HEARD of Aloph Hitler. Was he a relative of the German dictator's?

I guess you never heard of a typo either:rolleyes: That doesn't really surprise me.

Gingersnap
01-31-2009, 12:18 PM
I guess you never heard of a typo either:rolleyes: That doesn't really surprise me.

She's just yanking his tail. Linda Numbers is our Spelling Nazi, I'm the resident clean freak, Moo is our window into the esoteric, and you are our Better Nature.

We've all got something. :p

FlaGator
01-31-2009, 12:26 PM
She's just yanking his tail. Linda Numbers is our Spelling Nazi, I'm the resident clean freak, Moo is our window into the esoteric, and you are our Better Nature.

We've all got something. :p

It's nice to be a part of a not so seemless whole. :D

Gingersnap
01-31-2009, 12:28 PM
It's nice to be a part of a not so seemless whole. :D

For a second there, I thought you wrote "seedy hole" which is amazingly apt. :D

linda22003
01-31-2009, 12:30 PM
I guess you never heard of a typo either:rolleyes: That doesn't really surprise me.

Certainly I have. However, I've also heard of proofreading.

FlaGator
01-31-2009, 12:31 PM
For a second there, I thought you wrote "seedy hole" which is amazingly apt. :D

You scared me. I thought one of my near famous typos slipped through again :eek:

Mythic
01-31-2009, 01:41 PM
Guess what, not all Republicans are god fearing christians. Some of us don't believe in god and we're not superstitious either.

And not all Christians counter pro-choice with the argument that God said so. :rolleyes:

MrsSmith
01-31-2009, 04:33 PM
You could say the same for the fetus that became Adolf Hitler or Mao Zedong or Ted Kennedy. Whats your point? That if a woman makes a decision to abort then another Nobel Prize winning genius goes down the drain and there goes humanity?

Guess what, not all Republicans are god fearing christians. Some of us don't believe in god and we're not superstitious either.

Unless we step on a crack 'cause we don't want to break our mother's back.


Acid Rain
Global Warming
Abortion
Taxes
Rap Music
Muslims
Christians
Bush
Obama
Ford
Chevy
Cardinals
Steelers


Yawn.

Ok, here's a good question for you. Can you tell me which item on your list has cost the US over 40 million human lives?

Fergus
01-31-2009, 06:54 PM
Ok, here's a good question for you. Can you tell me which item on your list has cost the US over 40 million human lives?

Okay, Mrs. Smith, I'll participate in your discussion.

I'm guessing the correct answer, the answer you are looking for is, "Abortion".

Now, with that said I'll have to disagree with you.

I don't agree with you that a fetus is a human being. I don't believe that an aborted fetus is another human life and is lost forever. I don't think that abortion is murder. I think that a fetus is just that, a clump of cells without the ability to formulate the concept of self and thought.

I simply feel that abortion is a choice.

I feel that the right of a woman that is pregnant to make a decision to abort or to not abort is her decision, not yours and not mine. I believe that she should be able to make that decision and to act on it without harassment from the public.

My opinion is not based on any sort of religious belief as I do not believe in god or a higher being. I believe that when you die that things go dark and thats it. The end...nada, nothing.

Okay, now I was pretty harsh there. I said some things that are absolute and don't give you much room to argue/discuss with me. Let me add some stuff that we can discuss. I know there are inconsistencies in my argument, feel free to flame me.

I do think there should be a limit on the age of the fetus that is eligible for abortion. For example, I think third trimester abortions should be outside the limit. I am a little bit squeemish about aborting a fetus at that age. Yes, I know, I'm being inconsistent but heck, it's my post.

I don't think government should provide abortions for woman free of charge. If the woman can't afford it then she and the father will need to pay for it over time. I have no problem if third party groups, (Planned Parenthood for example) pay for it.

There, that should be enough to start with.

Best regards

FlaGator
01-31-2009, 07:17 PM
Okay, Mrs. Smith, I'll participate in your discussion.

I'm guessing the correct answer, the answer you are looking for is, "Abortion".

Now, with that said I'll have to disagree with you.

I don't agree with you that a fetus is a human being. I don't believe that an aborted fetus is another human life and is lost forever. I don't think that abortion is murder. I think that a fetus is just that, a clump of cells without the ability to formulate the concept of self and thought.

I simply feel that abortion is a choice.

I feel that the right of a woman that is pregnant to make a decision to abort or to not abort is her decision, not yours and not mine. I believe that she should be able to make that decision and to act on it without harassment from the public.

My opinion is not based on any sort of religious belief as I do not believe in god or a higher being. I believe that when you die that things go dark and thats it. The end...nada, nothing.

Okay, now I was pretty harsh there. I said some things that are absolute and don't give you much room to argue/discuss with me. Let me add some stuff that we can discuss. I know there are inconsistencies in my argument, feel free to flame me.

I do think there should be a limit on the age of the fetus that is eligible for abortion. For example, I think third trimester abortions should be outside the limit. I am a little bit squeemish about aborting a fetus at that age. Yes, I know, I'm being inconsistent but heck, it's my post.

I don't think government should provide abortions for woman free of charge. If the woman can't afford it then she and the father will need to pay for it over time. I have no problem if third party groups, (Planned Parenthood for example) pay for it.

There, that should be enough to start with.

Best regards

Who said abortion wasn't a choice? But like most choices some are right and some are wrong. Seeing, however, that you don't recognize a higher authority for which moral decisions must be answered for I must conclude that your moral values are ultimately meaningless because they have no authority behind them other than yourself. I suppose you're happy with a pliable view of right and wrong but to me it seems to lack something. I am much more confortable knowing that what was right and wrong when I go to bed hasn't changed when I get up. It is the changing morality of society that now finds abortion to be an amoral choice. But a higher authority can't exist for you since there is nothing after death in your opinion and the killing of the unborn has no moral complications for you. I guess it makes thing easier to view the world that way.

MrsSmith
01-31-2009, 08:59 PM
Okay, Mrs. Smith, I'll participate in your discussion.

I'm guessing the correct answer, the answer you are looking for is, "Abortion".

Now, with that said I'll have to disagree with you.

I don't agree with you that a fetus is a human being. I don't believe that an aborted fetus is another human life and is lost forever. I don't think that abortion is murder. I think that a fetus is just that, a clump of cells without the ability to formulate the concept of self and thought.

I simply feel that abortion is a choice.

I feel that the right of a woman that is pregnant to make a decision to abort or to not abort is her decision, not yours and not mine. I believe that she should be able to make that decision and to act on it without harassment from the public.

My opinion is not based on any sort of religious belief as I do not believe in god or a higher being. I believe that when you die that things go dark and thats it. The end...nada, nothing.

Okay, now I was pretty harsh there. I said some things that are absolute and don't give you much room to argue/discuss with me. Let me add some stuff that we can discuss. I know there are inconsistencies in my argument, feel free to flame me.

I do think there should be a limit on the age of the fetus that is eligible for abortion. For example, I think third trimester abortions should be outside the limit. I am a little bit squeemish about aborting a fetus at that age. Yes, I know, I'm being inconsistent but heck, it's my post.

I don't think government should provide abortions for woman free of charge. If the woman can't afford it then she and the father will need to pay for it over time. I have no problem if third party groups, (Planned Parenthood for example) pay for it.

There, that should be enough to start with.

Best regards
You say, "I do not believe in god or a higher being. I believe that when you die that things go dark and thats it. The end...nada, nothing." Just gone, done, nothing left. In other words, every human, every living thing, has only one shot at life. Once it's done, that's it. Even if you were correct in your opinion that the developing offspring is only a clump of cells, that "clump" is obviously alive and growing, and looking more and more live a "real" human every minute. Yet you are perfectly fine with the idea that a mother can make that choice for her offspring...to send that life into darkness, to wipe out that one and only chance that particular life has to actually live. If we do each have only one chance, and if we did just end up as nothing, how horrible to have that one and only chance destroyed by the one person on earth who is supposed to love us more than any other...

and how sick, that our government is more concerned with reducing "acid rain" and fixing non-existant global warming than in stopping the bloody slaughter of millions of lives.

Constitutionally Speaking
02-01-2009, 07:06 AM
Okay, Mrs. Smith, I'll participate in your discussion.

I'm guessing the correct answer, the answer you are looking for is, "Abortion".

Now, with that said I'll have to disagree with you.

I don't agree with you that a fetus is a human being. I don't believe that an aborted fetus is another human life and is lost forever. I don't think that abortion is murder. I think that a fetus is just that, a clump of cells without the ability to formulate the concept of self and thought.

Best regards

That is very scientific of you. :rolleyes:


A "fetus" fits ANY scientific definition of life. Also going on SCIENCE, a "fetus'" has a COMPLETE set of UNIQUE, HUMAN, DNA.

That makes it, by SCIENTIFIC methods of derivation, a LIVE HUMAN BEING.

Saying otherwise is just denying science.

wilbur
02-01-2009, 10:25 AM
That is very scientific of you. :rolleyes:


A "fetus" fits ANY scientific definition of life. Also going on SCIENCE, a "fetus'" has a COMPLETE set of UNIQUE, HUMAN, DNA.

That makes it, by SCIENTIFIC methods of derivation, a LIVE HUMAN BEING.

Saying otherwise is just denying science.

Annnnnnd here we go again. How many times do I have to point out that DNA is irrelevant, even by your own standards... as is easily revealed since you, nor any reasonable person, would say a solo skin cell should have rights. Every pro-lifer here makes distinctions between something that simply has human DNA, and something that is a human being with rights. Simply extend that reasoning to an embryo or a fetus and you should be able to understand pro-choice philosophy.

Fergus
02-01-2009, 10:29 AM
That is very scientific of you. :rolleyes:


A "fetus" fits ANY scientific definition of life. Also going on SCIENCE, a "fetus'" has a COMPLETE set of UNIQUE, HUMAN, DNA.

That makes it, by SCIENTIFIC methods of derivation, a LIVE HUMAN BEING.

Saying otherwise is just denying science.

Okay, so aborting a fetus which is a LIVE HUMAN BEING is murder right? Using your strict SCIENTIFIC methods of derivation, (whatever that is), how else could it not be? So what is your solution or rather what is your alternative to abortion? Not getting pregnant in the first place is a good idea, what are your ideas?

I'll ratchet myself down a few notches, I have no problem with woman that choose to keep their baby but conversely I also have no problem with women that decide to abort. It's their personal decision and I don't believe that you or I have any right to stick our nose into their personal decision. You won't hear me tell you that you cant have a child of our own.

Some people use religious reasons for being against abortion, some use personal reasons. Ironically, some people think it's okay to kill other human beings because they're so against the concept of abortion.

Constitutionally Speaking
02-01-2009, 10:31 AM
Annnnnnd here we go again. How many times do I have to point out that DNA is irrelevant? Even by your own judgements... as is easily revealed since no reasonable person would say a solo skin cell should have rights. Every pro-lifer here makes distinctions between something that simply has human DNA, and something that is a human being already. Simply extend that reasoning to an embryo or a fetus and you should be able to understand pro-choice philosophy.

Except you ignore the FACT that this is a UNIQUE and separate living organism. The DNA is not a "solo skin cell" - or ANY THING ELSE, that exists as a piece from another living being. It exists as a living being all by itself. The combination of the two (being alive and existing as a unique entity) makes it a live human being.

Ignoring that fact is nothing less than dishonest.

wilbur
02-01-2009, 10:35 AM
Except you ignore the FACT that this is a UNIQUE and separate living organism. The DNA is not a "solo skin cell" - or ANY THING ELSE, from another living being. It exists as a living being all by itself. The combination of the two makes it a live human being.

Ignoring that fact is nothing less than dishonest.

Then its not DNA that you really use to make your case.... I'm simply trying to keep YOU honest.

Fergus
02-01-2009, 10:39 AM
You say, "I do not believe in god or a higher being. I believe that when you die that things go dark and thats it. The end...nada, nothing." Just gone, done, nothing left. In other words, every human, every living thing, has only one shot at life. Once it's done, that's it. Even if you were correct in your opinion that the developing offspring is only a clump of cells, that "clump" is obviously alive and growing, and looking more and more live a "real" human every minute. Yet you are perfectly fine with the idea that a mother can make that choice for her offspring...to send that life into darkness, to wipe out that one and only chance that particular life has to actually live. If we do each have only one chance, and if we did just end up as nothing, how horrible to have that one and only chance destroyed by the one person on earth who is supposed to love us more than any other...

and how sick, that our government is more concerned with reducing "acid rain" and fixing non-existant global warming than in stopping the bloody slaughter of millions of lives.

Yes, I agree, how horrible it is. I'll tell you what else is horrible, six year old children dying of cancer, a wounded soldier on a battlefield taking a week to die, or a teenage boy committing suicide because he cant live with himself after being mistreated by his priest. Life if pretty unfair, ugly and horrible sometimes. Some lucky few get to live charmed lives and die at 92 with little or no grief in their lives. Most of us don't.

I'll still defend your right to have children or not have children. It's your decision and your business, not mine.

Constitutionally Speaking
02-01-2009, 10:41 AM
Okay, so aborting a fetus which is a LIVE HUMAN BEING is murder right? Using your strict SCIENTIFIC methods of derivation, (whatever that is), how else could it not be? So what is your solution or rather what is your alternative to abortion? Not getting pregnant in the first place is a good idea, what are your ideas?

That is it. If you are not prepared to be a parent, you are not prepared to have sex. The obfuscation of the FACT that it is a live human being leads to the weak justifications for abortion and the rationalizations for sex outside the bounds of viable parents.




I'll ratchet myself down a few notches, I have no problem with woman that choose to keep their baby but conversely I also have no problem with women that decide to abort. It's their personal decision and I don't believe that you or I have any right to stick our nose into their personal decision. You won't hear me tell you that you cant have a child of our own.

If you believe it is a human being, then stepping in to prevent it's death is NOT "sticking our nose" into personal decisions any more than arresting a serial killer is. Both prevent an innocent death.



Some people use religious reasons for being against abortion, some use personal reasons. Ironically, some people think it's okay to kill other human beings because they're so against the concept of abortion.

Innocence is the key. Liberals have trouble with the distinction between taking of an innocent life, and the just sentence after due process. (not arguing for death sentences for women who have abortions).

Constitutionally Speaking
02-01-2009, 10:44 AM
Then its not DNA that you really use to make your case.... I'm simply trying to keep YOU honest.

I made my qualifications perfectly clear in my original post. Separate unique DNA and living unique life.


A "fetus" fits ANY scientific definition of life. Also going on SCIENCE, a "fetus'" has a COMPLETE set of UNIQUE, HUMAN, DNA.

Fergus
02-01-2009, 10:52 AM
Innocence is the key. Liberals have trouble with the distinction between taking of an innocent life, and the just sentence after due process. (not arguing for death sentences for women who have abortions).

Why not? If abortion is murder and woman get abortions then aren't woman who get abortions murderers?

Your inconsistencies are interesting to me. Hey, I'm guilty of it too, remember I said that I support abortion but not in the third trimester?

Maybe you're just a bumper sticker pro-lifer?

Constitutionally Speaking
02-01-2009, 12:47 PM
Why not? If abortion is murder and woman get abortions then aren't woman who get abortions murderers?

Your inconsistencies are interesting to me. Hey, I'm guilty of it too, remember I said that I support abortion but not in the third trimester?

Maybe you're just a bumper sticker pro-lifer?.


Nope, Some murders are suited for capital punishment and others are not. Although I am not denying some ambiguity and inconsistencies on my part.

Truth be told, I feel guilty for my past feeling of NOT thinking this is more important than I did. I struggle with it, but every time I sit down to think about it, I keep reaching the logical conclusion that it really is about killing another human, and an innocent one, merely for convenience. I cannot rationalize that as I used to and still struggle with the implications of it.

linda22003
02-01-2009, 12:55 PM
That is it. If you are not prepared to be a parent, you are not prepared to have sex.

I have to disagree with that. I'm 53, married for almost 23 years, and I've had sex simply dozens and dozens of times. I've never been prepared to be a parent, never wanted to be a parent, and never had any intention of it. :)

Fergus
02-01-2009, 01:32 PM
Truth be told, I feel guilty for my past feeling of NOT thinking this is more important than I did. I struggle with it, but every time I sit down to think about it, I keep reaching the logical conclusion that it really is about killing another human, and an innocent one, merely for convenience. I cannot rationalize that as I used to and still struggle with the implications of it.

Fair enough. We all have demons and guilt to bear. I wish you the best with yours.

Take care.

MrsSmith
02-01-2009, 01:46 PM
Yes, I agree, how horrible it is. I'll tell you what else is horrible, six year old children dying of cancer, a wounded soldier on a battlefield taking a week to die, or a teenage boy committing suicide because he cant live with himself after being mistreated by his priest. Life if pretty unfair, ugly and horrible sometimes. Some lucky few get to live charmed lives and die at 92 with little or no grief in their lives. Most of us don't.

I'll still defend your right to have children or not have children. It's your decision and your business, not mine.

Those things are all horrible. On the other hand, all people die eventually. It's a simple fact of life. It does not ever excuse those that deliberately end another life.

I will defend anyone's right to have or not have kids. I just will never defend a person's "right" to murder the child they've started. If you don't want to have kids, don't start one.


I do wonder how many countries will start to follow China's lead in forcing abortion...


Two children should be limit, says green guru

Sarah-Kate Templeton, Health Editor (http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/families/article5627634.ece)

COUPLES who have more than two children are being “irresponsible” by creating an unbearable burden on the environment, the government’s green adviser has warned.

Jonathon Porritt, who chairs the government’s Sustainable Development Commission, says curbing population growth through contraception and abortion must be at the heart of policies to fight global warming. He says political leaders and green campaigners should stop dodging the issue of environmental harm caused by an expanding population.



It's suggested more and more...force people to reduce their children to 2 in order to stop the non-existant global warming...our new religion of death.

FlaGator
02-01-2009, 02:22 PM
Annnnnnd here we go again. How many times do I have to point out that DNA is irrelevant, even by your own standards... as is easily revealed since you, nor any reasonable person, would say a solo skin cell should have rights. Every pro-lifer here makes distinctions between something that simply has human DNA, and something that is a human being with rights. Simply extend that reasoning to an embryo or a fetus and you should be able to understand pro-choice philosophy.

Here we go again. Just be cause you say something isn't relative doesn't mean that it's not relative. It just means that you have no answers for it so you decide something isn't relative.

FlaGator
02-01-2009, 02:25 PM
Why not? If abortion is murder and woman get abortions then aren't woman who get abortions murderers?

Your inconsistencies are interesting to me. Hey, I'm guilty of it too, remember I said that I support abortion but not in the third trimester?

Maybe you're just a bumper sticker pro-lifer?

Just because the anti-abortion side feels that it is murder doesn't mean we can be compassionate to the mother. We have already dealt with this question.

FlaGator
02-01-2009, 02:27 PM
I have to disagree with that. I'm 53, married for almost 23 years, and I've had sex simply dozens and dozens of times. I've never been prepared to be a parent, never wanted to be a parent, and never had any intention of it. :)

And if you would have gotten pregnant then what would you have done?

MrsSmith
02-01-2009, 03:58 PM
Annnnnnd here we go again. How many times do I have to point out that DNA is irrelevant, even by your own standards... as is easily revealed since you, nor any reasonable person, would say a solo skin cell should have rights. Every pro-lifer here makes distinctions between something that simply has human DNA, and something that is a human being with rights. Simply extend that reasoning to an embryo or a fetus and you should be able to understand pro-choice philosophy.


fe·tus
Pronunciation: \ˈfē-təs\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin, act of bearing young, offspring; akin to Latin fetus newly delivered, fruitful — more at feminine
Date: 14th century
: an unborn or unhatched vertebrate especially after attaining the basic structural plan of its kind ; specifically : a developing human from usually two months after conception to birth

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


fe⋅tus   /ˈfitəs/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [fee-tuhs] Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun, plural -tus⋅es. Embryology. (used chiefly of viviparous mammals) the young of an animal in the womb or egg, esp. in the later stages of development when the body structures are in the recognizable form of its kind, in humans after the end of the second month of gestation.

Also, especially British, foetus.
Compare embryo (def. 2).


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Origin:
1350–1400; ME < L fētus bringing forth of young, hence that which is born, offspring, young still in the womb, equiv. to fē- (v. base attested in L only in n. derivatives, as fēmina woman, fēcundus fecund, etc.; cf. Gk thēsthai to suck, milk, OHG tāan to suck, OIr denid (he) sucks) + -tus suffix of v. action


<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

fe·tus (fts) KEY

NOUN:
pl. fe·tus·es
The unborn young of a viviparous vertebrate having a basic structural resemblance to the adult animal.
In humans, the unborn young from the end of the eighth week after conception to the moment of birth, as distinguished from the earlier embryo.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ETYMOLOGY:
Middle English, from Latin ftus, offspring; see dh(i)- in Indo-European roots



Weirdly enough, every dictionary seems to distinguish between a fetus and a single skin cell. :eek:


Even weirder, the left-leaning wikipedia says:

A fetus (or foetus or fœtus) is a developing human, after the embryonic stage and before childbirth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetus


Did you ever think about seeking professional help for your hatred of human fetuses, wil?

Constitutionally Speaking
02-01-2009, 04:16 PM
Then its not DNA that you really use to make your case.... I'm simply trying to keep YOU honest.


DNA simply proves it is human.

wilbur
02-01-2009, 04:32 PM
Weirdly enough, every dictionary seems to distinguish between a fetus and a single skin cell. :eek:


Even weirder, the left-leaning wikipedia says:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetus


Did you ever think about seeking professional help for your hatred of human fetuses, wil?

You continue to show off your talent for focusing on the irrelevant, missing the point, and shallow thinking.

And left leaning wikipedia? For goodness sake, its a paranoid little place in your brain isnt it.... I thought I was bad.

Mythic
02-01-2009, 05:16 PM
You continue to show off your talent for focusing on the irrelevant, missing the point, and shallow thinking.
Why is it irrelevant? If you can't figure out why a fetus is different than a skin cell then you shouldn't even be arguing.

The bottom line is that a human fetus is the only thing that will ever become a human baby. A baby will then become and adult. Nothing else will become a fully grown human.

Do you not understand the process of development? Why should a fetus have any less worth than a fully grown person? The only answer to that question is that a fetus does not have all the traits of a human and does not have a complete thinking process etc. But guess what...the reason that it does not have all those characteristics is because it is still developing them. Development. A baby in the third trimester of pregnancy lacks many of those traits as well. A human baby cannot fully make decisions on its own.


And left leaning wikipedia? For goodness sake, its a paranoid little place in your brain isnt it.... I thought I was bad.
The wikipedia argument is what is irrelevant.

wilbur
02-01-2009, 05:23 PM
Why is it irrelevant? If you can't figure out why a fetus is different than a skin cell then you shouldn't even be arguing.


The difference isn't DNA now is it?

If it was the DNA you and CS valued, those skin cells would be just as important wouldn't they?

Constitutionally Speaking
02-01-2009, 05:29 PM
The difference isn't DNA now is it?

If it was the DNA you and CS valued, those skin cells would be just as important wouldn't they?

I already told you Wilbur, the DNA simply shows that the live being is a human.

MrsSmith
02-01-2009, 05:33 PM
The difference isn't DNA now is it?

If it was the DNA you and CS valued, those skin cells would be just as important wouldn't they?

The difference is that the human skin cell is part of a human fetus. Just as a feline skin cell would be part of a feline fetus...which, since they are not routinely aborted, are commonly agreed to be the living offspring of an adult feline. Meanwhile, the living offspring of humans are considered "not human enough," not living, clumps of cells, non-persons, and every other dehumanizing name you can imagine...just so ignorant suckers will buy the line that it's OK to murder them.

By the way, did you ever find the foundation for the human right to life in your moral framework without having to borrow it from God's laws? Or are you still limping along under the impression that most human cultures really do work the same way Western Civilization works?

Mythic
02-01-2009, 05:35 PM
The difference isn't DNA now is it?

If it was the DNA you and CS valued, those skin cells would be just as important wouldn't they?
No, its not just DNA. DNA is simply what defines what a human is. Which is why animals do not have equal rights to humans. The point is relevant, but not the whole thing.

The main point I have is stated in my above post.

wilbur
02-01-2009, 05:46 PM
No, its not just DNA. DNA is simply what defines what a human is.

Again, except if its a skin cell or a corpse. Geneticly human yes... but thats not what's of value.



Which is why animals do not have equal rights to humans. The point is relevant, but not the whole thing.

The main point I have is stated in my above post.

So we've established that DNA doesn't provide value in and of itself. So can we shelve the whole DNA thing, once and for all?

You say the first instant DNA is created is simply the starting line where some value comes into being.. but its not actually the DNA that provides it... I say its when the project is a little more complete and the brain begins in its first stirrings of thought. Make arguments for those values, and your reasonings for why those things are valuble... (and you have to some extent, sort of)

But in any case... lets start saying what we mean... instead of serving up rhetorical smokescreens like "Its got DNA!"

linda22003
02-01-2009, 06:09 PM
And if you would have gotten pregnant then what would you have done?

I would have had it, but I would not have been a happy or willing mother. Many people here may know what having one of those is like. Fortunately, I understood contraceptive technology quite thoroughly.

Constitutionally Speaking
02-01-2009, 08:12 PM
Geneticly human yes... but thats not what's of value.

So now you are trying to force your value set (religion) on us - and have it sanctioned by govt.????

Constitutionally Speaking
02-01-2009, 08:16 PM
So we've established that DNA doesn't provide value in and of itself. So can we shelve the whole DNA thing, once and for all?


No one said it did, that is a straw man you keep putting up. DNA establishes it's species - and the FACT that it is NOT simply part of the mother. By leaving out the accompanying data that it is a live being, you are being dishonest.






But in any case... lets start saying what we mean... instead of serving up rhetorical smokescreens like "Its got DNA!"

You are the only one who said that.

FlaGator
02-01-2009, 08:28 PM
The difference isn't DNA now is it?

If it was the DNA you and CS valued, those skin cells would be just as important wouldn't they?

I'm sorry to say this, but that is about the most ignorant comment I've ever seen you make. Gosh you are really reaching again with a completely senseless comparision. A skin cell left to its own devices will not develop in to a child. Howerver, DNA determines that the fetus is human and its growth and development makes the fetus a living organism. The fetus needs food, oxygen and shelter to maintain it's life... just like you and I do. The only difference is the mother supplies these needs until the baby is born. After birth the only thing the baby gets on its own is oxygen.

wilbur
02-01-2009, 08:30 PM
So now you are trying to force your value set (religion) on us - and have it sanctioned by govt.????

Why is this point so elusive? I think its simply years of repetition of the "its got DNA!" rhetoric.... its disguise as some sort of deep thought has convinced people that it actually means something.

And you have it backwards. Pro-life movement is all about removing the freedom of a person to consider the philosophies, the arguments and make their own decision. I don't want the government to "sanction" any beliefs except to maintain the good sense policy to stay out of the way and let people come to their own conclusions in this matter... and act on those conclusions.

wilbur
02-01-2009, 08:34 PM
I'm sorry to say this, but that is about the most ignorant comment I've ever seen you make. Gosh you are really reaching again with a completely senseless comparision. A skin cell left to its own devices will not develop in to a child.

Then its not the DNA you care about! The DNA rhetoric is empty, vapid and meaningless, as you demonstrate right here!

FlaGator
02-01-2009, 08:34 PM
I would have had it, but I would not have been a happy or willing mother. Many people here may know what having one of those is like. Fortunately, I understood contraceptive technology quite thoroughly.

My ex and I did as well. We never wanted children so we (like you and yours) took the appropriate precautions. We made our choice where it should have been made... at the beginning. Had she gotten pregnant then we would have kept it because we knew that a child could result from our act and it was our responsibility to live up to the obligations we knew would ensue if an 'accident' occurred. There are some here who advocate shucking their responsibilities because they are inconvenient.

FlaGator
02-01-2009, 08:38 PM
Then its not the DNA you care about! The DNA rhetoric is empty, vapid and meaningless, as you demonstrate right here!

Again you persist in ignorance. The DNA make is human... not a frog or a chimp or anything else. I demonstrated no such thing as DNA being meaningless. Your failure to grasp the significance of the point does not render the point moot. It only highless your lack of understanding of the issue.

wilbur
02-01-2009, 08:43 PM
Again you persist in ignorance. The DNA make is human... not a frog or a chimp or anything else. I demonstrated no such thing as DNA being meaningless. Your failure to grasp the significance of the point does not render the point moot. It only highless your lack of understanding of the issue.

Skin cells have DNA. They don't get human rights.
Embryo's have DNA. Do they get human rights? If so, why?

You will then go on to list a whole bunch of things (other than DNA) as to why they get rights. Get it?

The DNA itself, is meaningless as far as rights are concerned, except as a symbolic marker for some inherent value that you see in the organism. The reason I harp on this is because simply saying "it has DNA" is not a meaningful argument. Its all the other stuff behind it that needs to be talked about.

FlaGator
02-01-2009, 08:51 PM
Skin cells have DNA. They don't get human rights.
Embryo's have DNA. Do they get human rights? If so, why?

You will then go on to list a whole bunch of things (other than DNA) as to why they get rights.

The DNA itself, is meaningless as far as rights are concerned, except as a symbolic marker for some inherent value that you see in the organism. The reason I harp on this is because simply saying "it has DNA" is not a meaningful argument. Its all the other stuff behind it that needs to be talked about.

You are pigeon holing the DNA and then claiming it doesn't matter and refuse to look at the whole which is the egg having 1/2 of the DNA and the sperm having the other half combining to create a self replicating cell which because of its DNA, is human. If it weren't for the propagation of the DNA there would be no point for the existence egg and sperm to begin with. Thus the DNA is important. No verbal sleight of hand changes this.

FlaGator
02-01-2009, 08:56 PM
Oh, I left this out. The skin cell does have rights as long as it is attached to the human body. When removed from the human body it is dead and has no rights.

wilbur
02-01-2009, 09:05 PM
You are pigeon holing the DNA and then claiming it doesn't matter and refuse to look at the whole which is the egg having 1/2 of the DNA and the sperm having the other half combining to create a self replicating cell which because of its DNA, is human.

If it weren't for the propagation of the DNA there would be no point for the existence egg and sperm to begin with. Thus the DNA is important. No verbal sleight of hand changes this.

I'm simply responding to the rhetoric as its presented, Fla...

I'm not pigeon-holing anything, I am simply trying to get people to actually recognize that half the stuff they post as arguments about this issue are actually empty, vapid, meaningless rhetoric... such as when someone says "An embryo has DNA therefore it has human rights! Duh!". This started with someone pulling that same stunt, yet again.

wilbur
02-01-2009, 09:07 PM
Oh, I left this out. The skin cell does have rights as long as it is attached to the human body. When removed from the human body it is dead and has no rights.

Well, yes, I havent bothered to addendum every mention of 'skin cell' with "in a pitri dish" for brevity... but we all know thats what I'm talking about.

And you also illuminate here, yet again, that the DNA is not the reason you consider people valuable and deserving of rights.... although it is a vitally important enabler of those things, it is not those things. Skin cells have DNA while in the body, and after theyve fallen off. At one point it has rights... at another it's of absolutely no concern to us.

FlaGator
02-01-2009, 09:10 PM
I'm simply responding to the rhetoric as its presented, Fla...

I'm not pigeon-holing anything, I am simply trying to get people to actually recognize that half the stuff they post as arguments about this issue are actually empty, vapid, meaningless rhetoric... such as when someone says "An embryo has DNA therefore it has human rights! Duh!". This started with someone pulling that same stunt, yet again.

I can accept that, I suppose I read your reply out of context and for that I apologize. For myself I was just trying to establish the big picture which is the embryo makes the DNA important and vicea versa because the whole point of reproduction is the propagation of DNA.

Fergus
02-01-2009, 09:11 PM
Oh god, you are all frickin' hilarious...

Arguing about the importance and validity of human DNA. I'm laughing my ass off.

You people that are against choice are a bunch of wimps.

If abortion is murder, as you like to say, then anyone and everyone that is involved in abortion is guilty of it as well.

You people, you wimps, are disgusting in your inability to call it what you define it as, which is murder. You don't act on your convictions, you simply talk about it and gripe and whine about all the babies that are being slaughtered while the government stands by and watches. Boo' hoo.

If you feel that strongly about it then do something. This is your call to action. Change the law, get a constitutional amendment, do something other than lighting candles.

Oh, I almost forgot, some of you like to get down on your knees and pray about it, begging the baby Jesus to end the horror. Superstitious idolatry always gives me a chuckle.

How about this, if you dont like abortion then don't get an abortion.

FlaGator
02-01-2009, 09:24 PM
Oh god, you are all frickin' hilarious...

Arguing about the importance and validity of human DNA. I'm laughing my ass off.

You people that are against choice are a bunch of wimps.

If abortion is murder, as you like to say, then anyone and everyone that is involved in abortion is guilty of it as well.

You people, you wimps, are disgusting in your inability to call it what you define it as, which is murder. You don't act on your convictions, you simply talk about it and gripe and whine about all the babies that are being slaughtered while the government stands by and watches. Boo' hoo.

If you feel that strongly about it then do something. This is your call to action. Change the law, get a constitutional amendment, do something other than lighting candles.

Oh, I almost forgot, some of you like to get down on your knees and pray about it, begging the baby Jesus to end the horror. Superstitious idolatry always gives me a chuckle.

How about this, if you dont like abortion then don't get an abortion.

I do call it murder, but I also believe in showing compassion for the mother who felt the need to make this decision. It is sad that a life must be taken for what ever reason but abortion seems to be such a needless way for someone to absolve themselves of their responsibility.

For the record, I do pray about it and I find that it helps me to find peace with what I consider to be a very horrible situation. Also I do work to change the laws. For the most part I vote for those who are against abortion. As for superstitious idolatry, I abhor it as well which is why I don't worship idols.

wilbur
02-01-2009, 09:31 PM
Oh god, you are all frickin' hilarious...

Arguing about the importance and validity of human DNA. I'm laughing my ass off.

You people that are against choice are a bunch of wimps.

If abortion is murder, as you like to say, then anyone and everyone that is involved in abortion is guilty of it as well.

You people, you wimps, are disgusting in your inability to call it what you define it as, which is murder. You don't act on your convictions, you simply talk about it and gripe and whine about all the babies that are being slaughtered while the government stands by and watches. Boo' hoo.


While I tend to get pretty sardonic sometimes, I don't generally go quite this far.... sometimes its best to take a breather before you post.

But yes, I agree, there is a laughable double standard when one compares the rhetoric about murder and baby slaughter and what is to be done about it after the fact. Is it not the most egregious miscarriage of justice to let an abortionist go free after they have partook in the worst imaginable violation of human rights possible? Fetuses are supposed to have them too, I thought.... murdering one of them is just like murdering you or I... I guess not. No appeals to 'enhanced spiritual toolboxes' or what-ever can resolve this discrepancy.... they don't believe their own rhetoric... or have too much cognitive dissonance on the matter to recognize their rhetoric has really outgrown what they actually believe.. but have failed to notice.

Although pro-lifers do exist that have the courage of their convictions... and would advocate treating any woman or doctor who participated in an abortion as murderers.... I don't think its necessarily a small number either, but I'm not sure.



If you feel that strongly about it then do something. This is your call to action. Change the law, get a constitutional amendment, do something other than lighting candles.


I don't think they need encouragement in this regard. They make attempts continuously at all those things. That is part of the problem... it is conceivable that they could succeed at some point.

FlaGator
02-01-2009, 09:36 PM
While I tend to get pretty sardonic sometimes, I don't generally go quite this far.... sometimes its best to take a breather before you post.

But yes, I agree, there is a laughable double standard when one compares the rhetoric about murder and baby slaughter and what is to be done about it after the fact. Is it not the most egregious miscarriage of justice to let an abortionist go free after they have partook in the worst imaginable violation of human rights possible? Fetuses are supposed to have them too, I thought.... murdering one of them is just like murdering you or I... I guess not. No appeals to 'enhanced spiritual toolboxes' or what-ever can resolve this discrepancy.... they don't believe their own rhetoric... or have too much cognitive dissonance on the matter to recognize their rhetoric has really outgrown what they actually believe.. but have failed to notice.

Although pro-lifers do exist that have the courage of their convictions... and would advocate treating any woman or doctor who participated in an abortion as murderers.... I don't think its necessarily a small number either, but I'm not sure.



I don't think they need encouragement in this regard. They make attempts continuously at all those things. That is part of the problem... it is conceivable that they could succeed at some point.


I think that he is more contemptious of the Christian nature that some of the debate contains than the actual anti-abortion view itself. At least that's the feel I get from the post. Any ways, I'll pray for him. :D

Fergus
02-01-2009, 09:45 PM
I do call it murder, but I also believe in showing compassion for the mother who felt the need to make this decision. It is sad that a life must be taken for what ever reason but abortion seems to be such a needless way for someone to absolve themselves of their responsibility.

For the record, I do pray about it and I find that it helps me to find peace with what I consider to be a very horrible situation. Also I do work to change the laws. For the most part I vote for those who are against abortion. As for superstitious idolatry, I abhor it as well which is why I don't worship idols.

Interesting. So how do you distinguish between the woman that has an abortion, (murder), and Ottis Toole, the guy from Jacksonville that killed Adam Walsh? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottis_Toole

I realize that one is a woman, young and weak and the other is homicidal manic that killed a child but really, what is the difference?

BTW, my inappropriate phase about the baby Jesus and idolatry was a bit dramatic and over the top. You disarmed me by being a gentleman about it. Im sorry about that.

Constitutionally Speaking
02-01-2009, 09:46 PM
Why is this point so elusive? I think its simply years of repetition of the "its got DNA!" rhetoric.... its disguise as some sort of deep thought has convinced people that it actually means something.

And you have it backwards. Pro-life movement is all about removing the freedom of a person to consider the philosophies, the arguments and make their own decision. I don't want the government to "sanction" any beliefs except to maintain the good sense policy to stay out of the way and let people come to their own conclusions in this matter... and act on those conclusions..

Except your "values" deny an innocent human being the right to exist.

NonConformist
02-01-2009, 09:47 PM
I cant help but wonder how many Einsteins, or Beethovens, or even George Washingtons dont exist because of selfish action of people w/ a 'choice' :(

wilbur
02-01-2009, 09:50 PM
I cant help but wonder how many Einsteins, or Beethovens, or even George Washingtons dont exist because of selfish action of people w/ a 'choice' :(

Do you balance that with a nice bout of wondering how many Hitlers, Pol Pots or Jeffery Dahmers, or just plain murderers were never born?

MrsSmith
02-01-2009, 09:53 PM
Oh god, you are all frickin' hilarious...

Arguing about the importance and validity of human DNA. I'm laughing my ass off.

You people that are against choice are a bunch of wimps.

If abortion is murder, as you like to say, then anyone and everyone that is involved in abortion is guilty of it as well.

You people, you wimps, are disgusting in your inability to call it what you define it as, which is murder. You don't act on your convictions, you simply talk about it and gripe and whine about all the babies that are being slaughtered while the government stands by and watches. Boo' hoo.

If you feel that strongly about it then do something. This is your call to action. Change the law, get a constitutional amendment, do something other than lighting candles.

Oh, I almost forgot, some of you like to get down on your knees and pray about it, begging the baby Jesus to end the horror. Superstitious idolatry always gives me a chuckle.

How about this, if you dont like abortion then don't get an abortion.Never did. Raised 5 kids, mostly on my own. Get this straight, pro-lifers walk the walk. Huge numbers have not only never murdered their own kids, they've adopted kids, worked as foster parents, volunteered at pregnancy centers, worked to assist adoptions, & donated to assist pregnant women and those in need. There are churches that make it a point to provide homes for as many children as possible, and others with adoption services that will charge only what parents can afford instead of the 10s of thousands demanded elsewhere.

Pro-lifers are arrested all the time for trying to talk women out of murdering their children. They are arrested for driving trucks with pictures of aborted babies on them. They are working every day to enact laws against abortion and change public opinion from the ignorance and heartlessness you show to a proper understanding of the medical facts of the unborn. And all that hard work can be undone with one stroke of O's pen.

What would YOU have us do, turn into murderers ourselves? Be assured, God will deal quite thoroughly with abortion doctors, and He knows what the mothers of murdered babies deserve. The problem is that WE don't. We don't know their hearts, AND we don't have a law to stop their actions. For those that are as stupid as wilbur, they truly BELIEVE they are not murdering a human being. Those that know better will most likely suffer for the crime for the rest of their lives. Either way, God will know the proper way to even the scales. Revenge is His, remember.

FlaGator
02-01-2009, 09:56 PM
Interesting. So how do you distinguish between the woman that has an abortion, (murder), and Ottis Toole, the guy from Jacksonville that killed Adam Walsh? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottis_Toole

I realize that one is a woman, young and weak and the other is homicidal manic that killed a child but really, what is the difference?

BTW, my inappropriate phase about the baby Jesus and idolatry was a bit dramatic and over the top. You disarmed me by being a gentleman about it. Im sorry about that.

No need to apologize. I understand that things can get heated when discussing topics like this. As for your question concerning O'toole and a young pregnant woman... as you pointed out, Otis was a homicidal maniac who choose to kill for no other reason than he liked killing. The woman does it because in some cases she sees no alternative. A harder choice might be to ask what the difference is between the woman getting an abortion and a woman who kills an abusive husband. Both had other choices and both took the expedient way to escape their respective situations. Depending on the circumstances I might choose to show both compassion.

FlaGator
02-01-2009, 10:00 PM
Do you balance that with a nice bout of wondering how many Hitlers, Pol Pots or Jeffery Dahmers, or just plain murderers were never born?


I believe that each type have a right to be born and become whatever it is that they will become. No future is guaranteed to bring happiness and all are free to choose evil as will as good.

wilbur
02-01-2009, 10:01 PM
Never did. Raised 5 kids, mostly on my own. Get this straight, pro-lifers walk the walk. Huge numbers have not only never murdered their own kids, they've adopted kids, worked as foster parents, volunteered at pregnancy centers, worked to assist adoptions, & donated to assist pregnant women and those in need. There are churches that make it a point to provide homes for as many children as possible, and others with adoption services that will charge only what parents can afford instead of the 10s of thousands demanded elsewhere.

Pro-lifers are arrested all the time for trying to talk women out of murdering their children. They are arrested for driving trucks with pictures of aborted babies on them. They are working every day to enact laws against abortion and change public opinion from the ignorance and heartlessness you show to a proper understanding of the medical facts of the unborn. And all that hard work can be undone with one stroke of O's pen.

What would YOU have us do, turn into murderers ourselves? Be assured, God will deal quite thoroughly with abortion doctors, and He knows what the mothers of murdered babies deserve. The problem is that WE don't. We don't know their hearts, AND we don't have a law to stop their actions. For those that are as stupid as wilbur, they truly BELIEVE they are not murdering a human being. Those that know better will most likely suffer for the crime for the rest of their lives. Either way, God will know the proper way to even the scales. Revenge is His, remember.

So on some level, you are actually agreeing that you cannot conclusively prove, or even support well enough your concept of life to enforce what society has already decided are just punishments for murder when it comes to abortion... since when do we place so much emphasis on what is in the 'heart' of a murderer.... the most difference that will generally make is when we decide where to send them.... to mental institution for the criminally insane, or prison for the rest of their lives... at the very least we must protect society from them.... to protect more 'innocents' from being put at risk.

Deep down you all seem to understand that abortion IS NOT equivalent to murdering a real live person.

Fergus
02-01-2009, 10:01 PM
I cant help but wonder how many Einsteins, or Beethovens, or even George Washingtons dont exist because of selfish action of people w/ a 'choice' :(

And conversely what? How many lives would have been saved if Hitler and Husein's mother had an abortion? Please, your argument makes no sense.

Humanity has the work of Einstein, Beethoven and Washington not because their mothers didnt have an abortion. We have it because those men created brilliance on their own volition and on the backs of their gigantic character. Now, I'll give you this, if they hadn't been born we would never have their genius but how could we know the difference?

If something doesn't exist then how can we know what we are missing?

I dont buy your argument that we should ban choice out of fear of executing the next Einstein.

NonConformist
02-01-2009, 10:04 PM
Ok, heres sense...its murder, and therefore a violation of the Constitutional right to LIFE!

/Thread :cool:

Fergus
02-01-2009, 10:32 PM
Never did. Raised 5 kids, mostly on my own. Get this straight, pro-lifers walk the walk. Huge numbers have not only never murdered their own kids, they've adopted kids, worked as foster parents, volunteered at pregnancy centers, worked to assist adoptions, & donated to assist pregnant women and those in need. There are churches that make it a point to provide homes for as many children as possible, and others with adoption services that will charge only what parents can afford instead of the 10s of thousands demanded elsewhere.

Pro-lifers are arrested all the time for trying to talk women out of murdering their children. They are arrested for driving trucks with pictures of aborted babies on them. They are working every day to enact laws against abortion and change public opinion from the ignorance and heartlessness you show to a proper understanding of the medical facts of the unborn. And all that hard work can be undone with one stroke of O's pen.

What would YOU have us do, turn into murderers ourselves? Be assured, God will deal quite thoroughly with abortion doctors, and He knows what the mothers of murdered babies deserve. The problem is that WE don't. We don't know their hearts, AND we don't have a law to stop their actions. For those that are as stupid as wilbur, they truly BELIEVE they are not murdering a human being. Those that know better will most likely suffer for the crime for the rest of their lives. Either way, God will know the proper way to even the scales. Revenge is His, remember.

I have no idea who wilbur is but I dont get the impression that he is stupid. He/she strings nouns and verbs together just as well as you do and you seem quite bright so until he shows a different side I'll treat him with respect.

Anyway....the problem I have with your argument is that you look at everything from a religious perspective. Get a clue, there is no god. You're just being superstitious and fearful of the dark. You need to get used to the idea that when you die thats it. Your run on this earth will be over and done with and a new person will take your place. You'll be forgotten as soon as the last person that knew you dies. In a hundred years you'll be nothing but an invisible headstone in a nameless cemetery. In 500 years a high rise condo will be built over you without regard to who you were or your accomplishments.

Procreate! Make babies and fill the world with your DNA. But in the end it just doesn't matter. A day will come, for both you and I. Darkness and the sensation of thought will end.

Personally, I'm going to do the best I can on this planet before that moment comes to me. I'm going to help, volunteer, be kind, and lend a hand whenever I can. My life is way too short to spend it frittering away in church worshiping a supernatural being that doesn't exist on Sundays and Wednesdays.

Mythic
02-02-2009, 01:28 AM
So we've established that DNA doesn't provide value in and of itself. So can we shelve the whole DNA thing, once and for all?

You say the first instant DNA is created is simply the starting line where some value comes into being.. but its not actually the DNA that provides it... I say its when the project is a little more complete and the brain begins in its first stirrings of thought. Make arguments for those values, and your reasonings for why those things are valuble... (and you have to some extent, sort of)

But in any case... lets start saying what we mean... instead of serving up rhetorical smokescreens like "Its got DNA!"

DNA simply differentiates a human from something else. I am against ending human life and human DNA is what makes that life a human. A skin cell cannot think or do anything other than be a skin cell. It will never develop into a thinking human. A fetus will. Thats the difference. But I think that the whole DNA thing has been argued enough over.

Anyway....the problem I have with your argument is that you look at everything from a religious perspective. Get a clue, there is no god. You're just being superstitious and fearful of the dark. You need to get used to the idea that when you die thats it. Your run on this earth will be over and done with and a new person will take your place. You'll be forgotten as soon as the last person that knew you dies. In a hundred years you'll be nothing but an invisible headstone in a nameless cemetery. In 500 years a high rise condo will be built over you without regard to who you were or your accomplishments..
Before you go on and on about how religion is completley false etc. know that you cannot prove that God does not exist. I happen to remember people whom I never knew, I remember many historical figures. I look back at old 19th century family photos and remember my relatives whom I never knew. But not all arguments against abortion have to do with religion. Many don't. I personally do not use relgious arguments against abortion because I know that people like you will not listen.


Never did. Raised 5 kids, mostly on my own. Get this straight, pro-lifers walk the walk. Huge numbers have not only never murdered their own kids, they've adopted kids, worked as foster parents, volunteered at pregnancy centers, worked to assist adoptions, & donated to assist pregnant women and those in need. There are churches that make it a point to provide homes for as many children as possible, and others with adoption services that will charge only what parents can afford instead of the 10s of thousands demanded elsewhere.

Pro-lifers are arrested all the time for trying to talk women out of murdering their children. They are arrested for driving trucks with pictures of aborted babies on them. They are working every day to enact laws against abortion and change public opinion from the ignorance and heartlessness you show to a proper understanding of the medical facts of the unborn. And all that hard work can be undone with one stroke of O's pen.

Those arguments don't look to be completely based on a religious perspective. You see one comment about religion and automatically discredit everything else that she said.


As for the whole argument about all the Hitlers and Ben Franklins etc. that would be in the world without abortion:
Why not let the fetus develop into a child and become what it will become? If it grows up to be a genious then the world will be a better place. If it grows up to be a Hitler then eventually that person will be brought to justice. What about all of the brilliant minds of good and evil being born even with abortion?

linda22003
02-02-2009, 08:46 AM
Ok, heres sense...its murder, and therefore a violation of the Constitutional right to LIFE!


Where is that in the Constitution, exactly? I mostly see it addressing the powers of the executive and judicial branches, and the powers of the States. Is it in one of the amendments?

YupItsMe
02-02-2009, 11:00 AM
Okay, so aborting a fetus which is a LIVE HUMAN BEING is murder right? Using your strict SCIENTIFIC methods of derivation, (whatever that is), how else could it not be? So what is your solution or rather what is your alternative to abortion? Not getting pregnant in the first place is a good idea, what are your ideas?

I'll ratchet myself down a few notches, I have no problem with woman that choose to keep their baby but conversely I also have no problem with women that decide to abort. It's their personal decision and I don't believe that you or I have any right to stick our nose into their personal decision. You won't hear me tell you that you cant have a child of our own.

Some people use religious reasons for being against abortion, some use personal reasons. Ironically, some people think it's okay to kill other human beings because they're so against the concept of abortion.



Duh!, well I don't know, maybe adoption.

YupItsMe
02-02-2009, 11:03 AM
I have to disagree with that. I'm 53, married for almost 23 years, and I've had sex simply dozens and dozens of times. I've never been prepared to be a parent, never wanted to be a parent, and never had any intention of it. :)


Good your kids would have "compleckes" :p

linda22003
02-02-2009, 11:08 AM
Good your kids would have "compleckes" :p

They'd at least know how to spell "complexes". :p

MrsSmith
02-02-2009, 06:44 PM
I have no idea who wilbur is but I dont get the impression that he is stupid. He/she strings nouns and verbs together just as well as you do and you seem quite bright so until he shows a different side I'll treat him with respect.

Anyway....the problem I have with your argument is that you look at everything from a religious perspective. Get a clue, there is no god. You're just being superstitious and fearful of the dark. You need to get used to the idea that when you die thats it. Your run on this earth will be over and done with and a new person will take your place. You'll be forgotten as soon as the last person that knew you dies. In a hundred years you'll be nothing but an invisible headstone in a nameless cemetery. In 500 years a high rise condo will be built over you without regard to who you were or your accomplishments. And given that belief, you feel justified in supporting the absolute end for millions of lives every year. We each have only one shot at it, then nothing...and you are fine with millions being deliberately murdered before they have any chance at all.

Aside from the breathtaking selfishness of an attitude like that, you're also wrong about my perspective. I've only been a Christian for 6 years now. I've always been pro-life because I've never been able to lie to myself effectively enough to believe it was OK to murder a child.



Procreate! Make babies and fill the world with your DNA. But in the end it just doesn't matter. A day will come, for both you and I. Darkness and the sensation of thought will end.

Personally, I'm going to do the best I can on this planet before that moment comes to me. I'm going to help, volunteer, be kind, and lend a hand whenever I can. My life is way too short to spend it frittering away in church worshiping a supernatural being that doesn't exist on Sundays and Wednesdays. You're going to help! :D What will you volunteer to do, assist in a few abortions on your day off? :D

The facts are that Christians donate more time and money than any other segment of society. Conservatives as a whole come next. Those bleeding-heart liberals donate less than every other segment of society. So, which one are you?? :D

MrsSmith
02-02-2009, 06:53 PM
So on some level, you are actually agreeing that you cannot conclusively prove, or even support well enough your concept of life to enforce what society has already decided are just punishments for murder when it comes to abortion... since when do we place so much emphasis on what is in the 'heart' of a murderer.... the most difference that will generally make is when we decide where to send them.... to mental institution for the criminally insane, or prison for the rest of their lives... at the very least we must protect society from them.... to protect more 'innocents' from being put at risk.

Deep down you all seem to understand that abortion IS NOT equivalent to murdering a real live person.

No, I'm saying that Christians are not to take the law into their own hands. We have a government that is responsible for writing and enforcing law. They are currently completely failing in regard to the human right to life.

Christians can work to save babies, to change laws and to elect leaders who will change laws...and we are. Beyond that, God does know the heart, and the final judgement is in His hands.

At least I know that the murdered children are now cared for, even though they should have never been murdered...especially at their mother's hand. I also know that God will judge every person, all those murdered innocents, and all those that support their murders. I am as sorry for the mothers and the doctors as the children...such horrible damage they've done to themselves. Just as your support of murder damages you in ways you don't fully grasp...yet.

wilbur
02-02-2009, 07:54 PM
No, I'm saying that Christians are not to take the law into their own hands. We have a government that is responsible for writing and enforcing law. They are currently completely failing in regard to the human right to life.

Christians can work to save babies, to change laws and to elect leaders who will change laws...and we are. Beyond that, God does know the heart, and the final judgement is in His hands.



I'm not talking about blowing up abortion clinics or vigilante, eye for an eye justice... simply looking for consistency in regards to punishments for murder.... and when I don't find it, it makes the rest of your beliefs, and most especially your rhetoric, suspect.



At least I know that the murdered children are now cared for, even though they should have never been murdered...especially at their mother's hand. I also know that God will judge every person, all those murdered innocents, and all those that support their murders. I am as sorry for the mothers and the doctors as the children...such horrible damage they've done to themselves. Just as your support of murder damages you in ways you don't fully grasp...yet.

I'm sorry for murderers who participate in drive by shootings, and armed robberies on some level too... something in their life truly sent them on the wrong path... not only is it wasteful when they kill a person, but also ensure that they truly miss out on whats great about life... but in the end they are responsible, whether they fully comprehend their wrongs or were cast into such desperate situations unfairly.. in the end they still are accountable.. and as regrettable as it is (in some cases) we have to send them to prison to protect the rest of lawful living people.

If an embryo is equivelant to a real live, lawful, innocent person, you MUST advocate similar justice for mothers and doctors who do such a thing. At the very least, you should be strongly behind sending them to prison.... so they don't harm anyone else (since an embryo is a person to you). Your arguments all rely on convincing us that an innocent being is MURDERED... your words, not mine... so what are we to think about your convictions when you say "weeelll.... we'll just have compassion for the mothers, her ordeal was punishment enough"? What about an unrepentant woman who had an abortion... and made it known that she would have another if she got pregnant again... and plans to be sexually active. Is that not equivelent to a death threat? Are you not obligated to lock her up? Why would we not treat it the same.... more importantly, how can we not treat it the same, yet still believe you when you call abortion the murder of an innocent human being?

You guys have some explaining to do ;)

Mythic
02-02-2009, 08:03 PM
You guys have some explaining to do
:rolleyes:


I'm not talking about blowing up abortion clinics or vigilante, eye for an eye justice... simply looking for consistency in regards to punishments for murder.... and when I don't find it, it makes the rest of your beliefs, and most especially your rhetoric, suspect.
Currently abortion is legal. So there should not be any punishments under the current law. But if abortion is made illegal then the number of people who still have abortions illegally should obviously be imprisoned for breaking the law.

If an embryo is equivelant to a real live, lawful, innocent person, you MUST advocate similar justice for mothers and doctors who do such a thing. At the very least, you should be strongly behind sending them to prison.... so they don't harm anyone else (since an embryo is a person to you). Your arguments all rely on convincing us that an innocent being is MURDERED... your words, not mine... so what are we to think about your convictions when you say "weeelll.... we'll just have compassion for the mothers, her ordeal was punishment enough"? What about an unrepentant woman who had an abortion... and made it known that she would have another if she got pregnant again... and plans to be sexually active. Is that not equivelent to a death threat? Are you not obligated to lock her up? Why would we not treat it the same.... more importantly, how can we not treat it the same, yet still believe you when you call abortion the murder of an innocent human being?
Again abortion is legal currently. If abortion were made illegal then mothers who already had abortions in the past should not be punished because "the game has already been played". If there is a punishment for abortion and it is made illegal, there will be far less abortions. For example, in CA if you drive while talking on a cell phone you will be fined $20. Nobody really follows that law and I see people using phones all the time. But if the fine were changed $2000 then I can assure you that few people would be driving with phones. People who were fined $20 would not be fined an additional $1800 after the law change.

MrsSmith
02-02-2009, 08:32 PM
I'm not talking about blowing up abortion clinics or vigilante, eye for an eye justice... simply looking for consistency in regards to punishments for murder.... and when I don't find it, it makes the rest of your beliefs, and most especially your rhetoric, suspect.
When did I ever say that it shouldn't be prosecuted as murder? It is, after all. What I said was that our laws are wrong, but I still can't take them into my own hands. That doesn't change the fact that it'll all come right in the end.



I'm sorry for murderers who participate in drive by shootings, and armed robberies on some level too... something in their life truly sent them on the wrong path... not only is it wasteful when they kill a person, but also ensure that they truly miss out on whats great about life... but in the end they are responsible, whether they fully comprehend their wrongs or were cast into such desperate situations unfairly.. in the end they still are accountable.. and as regrettable as it is (in some cases) we have to send them to prison to protect the rest of lawful living people.

If an embryo is equivelant to a real live, lawful, innocent person, you MUST advocate similar justice for mothers and doctors who do such a thing. At the very least, you should be strongly behind sending them to prison.... so they don't harm anyone else (since an embryo is a person to you). Your arguments all rely on convincing us that an innocent being is MURDERED... your words, not mine... so what are we to think about your convictions when you say "weeelll.... we'll just have compassion for the mothers, her ordeal was punishment enough"? What about an unrepentant woman who had an abortion... and made it known that she would have another if she got pregnant again... and plans to be sexually active. Is that not equivelent to a death threat? Are you not obligated to lock her up? Why would we not treat it the same.... more importantly, how can we not treat it the same, yet still believe you when you call abortion the murder of an innocent human being?

You guys have some explaining to do ;)Murder is murder. Those that murder deserve punishment. I think I've said that before. I do have compassion for those stupid enough to believe that "it's only a clump of cells," or "it's not a real person until x date." I'd even have enough compassion to start a prison ministry for them.

Fergus
02-02-2009, 11:44 PM
And given that belief, you feel justified in supporting the absolute end for millions of lives every year. We each have only one shot at it, then nothing...and you are fine with millions being deliberately murdered before they have any chance at all.

Aside from the breathtaking selfishness of an attitude like that, you're also wrong about my perspective. I've only been a Christian for 6 years now. I've always been pro-life because I've never been able to lie to myself effectively enough to believe it was OK to murder a child.


You're going to help! :D What will you volunteer to do, assist in a few abortions on your day off? :D

The facts are that Christians donate more time and money than any other segment of society. Conservatives as a whole come next. Those bleeding-heart liberals donate less than every other segment of society. So, which one are you?? :D

Mrs. Smith,

Yes, I'm fine with all that stuff you accuse me of. Yes, I'm fine with millions and millions of perfectly good babies getting slaughtered every year. I will sleep very well tonight, I might even sleep in late! The fact that woman are making a choice to have or not have a baby is perfectly fine with me.

But that is not the reason I've been active in this discussion thread. You started it by calling me out. I'm disgusted by people like you that love to call woman and the people that work in the abortion industry "murderers". Your propensity to fling names at people and to pass your own personal judgement without knowing any of the circumstances disappoint me.

People like you, people that judge without knowing any of the details make me think that you are nothing more than a lazy minded dolt. I actually feel sorry for people like you.

Before you judge, know you are talking about and then take a moment to maybe resconsider your hate and direct it towards understanding and compassion.

Oh, and by the way, I volunteer a huge amount of time to various social organizations here in my hometown. Not to toot my own horn but I haven't slept in on Christmas morning in 20 years. But seriously, I give quite a bit of time to my community.

In closing, I have never assisted in an abortion, Mrs. Smith.

Mythic
02-03-2009, 12:15 AM
The fact that woman are making a choice to have or not have a baby is perfectly fine with me.

They should have made that choice BEFORE having sex and not AFTER the baby had already started to develop.

I'm disgusted by people like you that love to call woman and the people that work in the abortion industry "murderers". Your propensity to fling names at people and to pass your own personal judgement without knowing any of the circumstances disappoint me.

Oh, so it is all about the circumstances. Well say I know someone whom has been harassing me and doing terrible things to me and there is nothing I can do about it. Would that justify the killing of that person? No.
People in the abortion industry are removing a developing human child from the mother. Essentially that means murdering the child before it has a chance to even fend for itself.
The fact that you have resorted to immature insults does not help further your cause; in fact it only degrades your ability to have an intelligent debate.

MrsSmith
02-03-2009, 06:48 PM
Mrs. Smith,

Yes, I'm fine with all that stuff you accuse me of. Yes, I'm fine with millions and millions of perfectly good babies getting slaughtered every year. I will sleep very well tonight, I might even sleep in late! The fact that woman are making a choice to have or not have a baby is perfectly fine with me.

But that is not the reason I've been active in this discussion thread. You started it by calling me out. I'm disgusted by people like you that love to call woman and the people that work in the abortion industry "murderers". Your propensity to fling names at people and to pass your own personal judgement without knowing any of the circumstances disappoint me.

People like you, people that judge without knowing any of the details make me think that you are nothing more than a lazy minded dolt. I actually feel sorry for people like you.

Before you judge, know you are talking about and then take a moment to maybe resconsider your hate and direct it towards understanding and compassion.

Oh, and by the way, I volunteer a huge amount of time to various social organizations here in my hometown. Not to toot my own horn but I haven't slept in on Christmas morning in 20 years. But seriously, I give quite a bit of time to my community.

In closing, I have never assisted in an abortion, Mrs. Smith.Do you approve of women killing their children after birth because of their circumstances? Exactly which details would you need to know to approve of someone murdering a 2 year old? If the kid is really nasty and breaks a lot of stuff? If the kid is Downs Syndrome, or doesn't sleep at night, or Mom's new boyfriend doesn't like kids? Seriously, Fergy, what circumstances allow murder?

Oh, and by the way, in case you missed it, I've given birth to 5 kids, and miscarried 2. I've walked the pro-life road in every circumstance.
No money...check.
Dad split...check.
No job...check.
No family or other support...check.
I considered abortion, but could not committ murder...check.

I've held in my hand the body of an 11-week fetus...and he was perfect. He was a boy, perfectly formed, completely a human being...and he now lies in the cemetary with my great-grandparents and the son they lost at birth.

There are NO circumstances that make it OK to murder your child...at any age.

Just for the record, I hate no one. I feel great pity for those deluded enough to embrace murder, and great sorrow for those innocent lives sacrificed to the god of money or convenience.

Fergus
02-03-2009, 10:14 PM
Do you approve of women killing their children after birth because of their circumstances? Exactly which details would you need to know to approve of someone murdering a 2 year old? If the kid is really nasty and breaks a lot of stuff? If the kid is Downs Syndrome, or doesn't sleep at night, or Mom's new boyfriend doesn't like kids? Seriously, Fergy, what circumstances allow murder?

Oh, and by the way, in case you missed it, I've given birth to 5 kids, and miscarried 2. I've walked the pro-life road in every circumstance.
No money...check.
Dad split...check.
No job...check.
No family or other support...check.
I considered abortion, but could not committ murder...check.

I've held in my hand the body of an 11-week fetus...and he was perfect. He was a boy, perfectly formed, completely a human being...and he now lies in the cemetery with my great-grandparents and the son they lost at birth.

There are NO circumstances that make it OK to murder your child...at any age.

Just for the record, I hate no one. I feel great pity for those deluded enough to embrace murder, and great sorrow for those innocent lives sacrificed to the god of money or convenience.

MrsSmith,

Before I respond to you I want to tell you that I believe everything you say. I believe that you've had a difficult time and it's a testament to your character that you've been able to make the decisions that you have, and then actually act on them. Men that can't support their family and take off are scum and weak.

I think I need, again, to ratchet back my attitude and practice some compassion instead of pontificating in the way I like to do. Clearly you are a woman of great character, a trait I need to work on.

With that said, I'd like to add a new twist to our discussion. Imagine, if you will, a society where you don't have a choice. Imagine that you are only allowed, by your government, to have one and only one child.

As you know, for decades China has had a policy where if you have a child you will be forced to have an abortion if you get pregnant again. Imagine that, imagine that you are forced to have an abortion just because you get pregnant!

Now for me, it's not a big leap to imagine a world where a woman is forced to NOT have an abortion if she gets pregnant. Am I correct that in your utopia abortion would be illegal?

So the way I see it, you're all for no choice. If a woman gets pregnant, no matter what the circumstance she has to bear the baby. But conversely, you're against forced abortion for all woman that get pregnant a second time. How can you be? If the country gets over populated everyone will die, not just a few unborn babies. Seems like quite a conundrum to me.

P.S. What about woman that will die if they take their baby to term? What if the baby's father is the father/brother/uncle of the mother and was raped? Does that woman get to murder the innocent baby or are you going to force her to carry to term?

Mythic
02-04-2009, 01:24 AM
Now for me, it's not a big leap to imagine a world where a woman is forced to NOT have an abortion if she gets pregnant.
Abortion=murder of innocent developing child.
No Abortion=no murder of innocent developing child.

I see a difference in a place where murdering innocent children is illegal then a place where you are forced to murder innocent children.

So the way I see it, you're all for no choice.
The choice comes before not after sex. Once someone has made the choice to have sex the results must be accepted. People need to be responsible. If you don't want to have a child, dont put yourself in situations, or as you would coin it circumstances, that will cause you to have sex and become pregnant. In the case of rape, that is only 1% of pregnancies. I still do not see how it would be justified to have an abortion because of the fault of the raper. The woman will go through emotional struggles and physical pain during birth, but the child should not suffer because of the sin of the father. But again, many women who are raped had already put themselves in dangerous situations that could have been avoided beforehand.


If the country gets over populated everyone will die, not just a few unborn babies.
Strange you say that when you talk in a negative light about China. If you are so worried about overpopulation then maybe this country should stop focusing so much of its advertisement on sex. Preventing unwanted pregnancies in the first place is what needs to be done.


I think I need, again, to ratchet back my attitude and practice some compassion instead of pontificating in the way I like to do. Clearly you are a woman of great character, a trait I need to work on.
That was very noble of you, you gained my "respect" back (in terms of debatability ;))

The only time I would ever consider allowing an abortion would be in the case of a mother who had no chance of living if the baby was born. Often times the baby will not be healthy either. A choice in this case will have to be made: Save the life of the mother or save the life of the child. A natural result of sex is pregnancy and if that mother did not want a child she should have been more careful. But death during pregnancy is not natural but an error.

MrsSmith
02-04-2009, 06:41 PM
MrsSmith,

Before I respond to you I want to tell you that I believe everything you say. I believe that you've had a difficult time and it's a testament to your character that you've been able to make the decisions that you have, and then actually act on them. Men that can't support their family and take off are scum and weak.

I think I need, again, to ratchet back my attitude and practice some compassion instead of pontificating in the way I like to do. Clearly you are a woman of great character, a trait I need to work on.

With that said, I'd like to add a new twist to our discussion. Imagine, if you will, a society where you don't have a choice. Imagine that you are only allowed, by your government, to have one and only one child.

As you know, for decades China has had a policy where if you have a child you will be forced to have an abortion if you get pregnant again. Imagine that, imagine that you are forced to have an abortion just because you get pregnant!

Now for me, it's not a big leap to imagine a world where a woman is forced to NOT have an abortion if she gets pregnant. Am I correct that in your utopia abortion would be illegal?

So the way I see it, you're all for no choice. If a woman gets pregnant, no matter what the circumstance she has to bear the baby. But conversely, you're against forced abortion for all woman that get pregnant a second time. How can you be? If the country gets over populated everyone will die, not just a few unborn babies. Seems like quite a conundrum to me.

P.S. What about woman that will die if they take their baby to term? What if the baby's father is the father/brother/uncle of the mother and was raped? Does that woman get to murder the innocent baby or are you going to force her to carry to term?Once a woman is pregnant, there are 2 lives at stake. She has no moral right to murder her child at any time in the child's life. If she was raped, it wasn't the child who committed the crime, and the child should not be punished for the father's crime. In fact, allowing rape as an excuse for abortion may well instead end up with women claiming a rape that didn't happen. The fathers already have no say in the fate of their children...the woman makes the choice between killing his child or taking him for support for 18 - 21 years. To then tell a woman that she can have an abortion if she swears she was raped...especially if she's angry at the guy for some reason...talk about giving her a way to really get even.

If the mother will certainly die, as in the case of tubal pregnancy, then it is always best to save one life instead of losing both. As for a woman that will die if she carries to term, that is very seldom cut and dried, but still, if her actual life is at risk, a risk that a c-section cannot abate, then it is always better to save one. However, if her health condition is a risk of depression, her emotions are not more valuable than her child's life.

I think the biggest disconnect between the pro-choice and the pro-life view is the view of the child. That child is the same child whether he or she dies 11 weeks after conception, 11 years after conception, or 110 years after conception.

How many women do you know who had a child after considering abortion...and wish they'd gone ahead with the procedure? How many are endlessly grateful that they didn't?

Fergus
02-05-2009, 07:24 PM
I see a difference in a place where murdering innocent children is illegal then a place where you are forced to murder innocent children.

I'm not the grammar police, far from it. I think you meant that you can see the difference between a world where a woman is forced to not have an abortion and a world where she is allowed to have an abortion. If I have that wrong correct me. Again, I'm not pouncing on what I think is a simple miswording. I do it all the time.

The entire thesis of my thread here is this: I believe a woman should have a choice. Maybe she screwed up and go pregnant while having fun with her boyfriend, or maybe she got knocked up by her uncle, I believe she should have the choice to abort the pregnancy. I do not think abortion is murder.

Now with that said, what do you think should be the consequences for a woman that gets an abortion? You are very clear, abortion = murder. Therefore, all woman that get abortions are murderers. What is your solution to that? Should all women that get abortions be executed? Should they be hung, electrocuted, or shot in the head? How about gassed? Cyanide works, that kills. Should we as a society fill a room with woman that has had an abortion with cyanide and kill her?

I would love to know your solution to this problem of murdering babies.




The only time I would ever consider allowing an abortion would be in the case of a mother who had no chance of living if the baby was born. Often times the baby will not be healthy either. A choice in this case will have to be made: Save the life of the mother or save the life of the child. A natural result of sex is pregnancy and if that mother did not want a child she should have been more careful. But death during pregnancy is not natural but an error.
Who gets to make the call/decision that the baby has no chance if the mother is forced to carry the baby to term? You, the doctor, the husband, the girls parents, the woman? Thats a pretty subjective thing to say. Who are you to say who lives and who dies. After all, history is full of extraordinary men/women that were weak infants. If I recall President Eisenhower was a weak child. What if Ike had been aborted because his mother had some morning sickness?

Fergus
02-05-2009, 07:36 PM
Once a woman is pregnant, there are 2 lives at stake. ....

After reading your reply I have to say that is one of the best posts I have ever read. I don't agree with you, but you clearly show your commitment and are resolute. Again, I don't agree with you, but you are the only person in this discussion thread that has shown backbone and commitment. For what it's worth, I respect that.



How many women do you know who had a child after considering abortion...and wish they'd gone ahead with the procedure? How many are endlessly grateful that they didn't?

I personally know three woman that are happy, 20 years after the fact, that they had abortions and are quite happy with their decision.

If I can be presumptuous, I think you are making a mistake by thinking that everyone thinks like you do. Some of us aren't religious and some of us don't melt at the sight of a defenseless infant. Some of us don't get all gooey inside when we hold a baby and think they are cute and cuddly and adorable.

Mythic
02-06-2009, 12:14 AM
I'm not the grammar police, far from it. I think you meant that you can see the difference between a world where a woman is forced to not have an abortion and a world where she is allowed to have an abortion. If I have that wrong correct me. Again, I'm not pouncing on what I think is a simple miswording. I do it all the time.

By all means I take no offense. I am just as prone to typos as anyone else. I meant to put "between" and "and" if that was confusing. But the rest of it is what I meant to say.

I see a difference between a place where murdering innocent children is illegal and a place where you are forced to murder innocent children.
I consider abortion the murder of innocent children.
So in terms of plain old abortion, there is a difference between a place where abortion is illegal and a place where abortion is forced.
Place A: People are forced to murder innocent children (forced abortion)
Place B: People are forced not to murder innocent children (forced no abortion)

I was replying to your "choice" theory that the two are the same. The difference is that outlawing murder is a good thing, while forcing it is a bad thing.


The entire thesis of my thread here is this: I believe a woman should have a choice. Maybe she screwed up and go pregnant while having fun with her boyfriend, or maybe she got knocked up by her uncle, I believe she should have the choice to abort the pregnancy. I do not think abortion is murder.Call it what you want, but abortion does end human life. My fundamental thesis would be: If a woman doesn't want a baby, she shouldn't have sex. If sex was forced upon a woman, the ending of the human life that has started the long process of development is in no way justified. The human life is innocent and has done no wrong.


Now with that said, what do you think should be the consequences for a woman that gets an abortion? You are very clear, abortion = murder. Therefore, all woman that get abortions are murderers. What is your solution to that? Should all women that get abortions be executed? Should they be hung, electrocuted, or shot in the head? How about gassed? Cyanide works, that kills. Should we as a society fill a room with woman that has had an abortion with cyanide and kill her?
Currently there can be no punishment because abortion is legal. But if it were made illegal I do not see why the death penalty would be the option to chose. The mother did not want to kill the child out of a desire to accumulate wealth or out of anger or because she hated it...it would have been more likely that she had been raped or that she simply could not take care of a child and did not want to use the adoption option. Obviously the small amount of women who would go into an alley and get an illegal abortion would be smaller than those getting it legally today. The mother may fear giving birth. Death should not be punishment, that is far to extreme. I would say that a month in prison would suffice. Or maybe 9 months considering that is the amount of time the woman would have been pregnant. She killed the baby so instead she gets jailtime. Baby or jail? For those giving the abortions, a harsher punishment is fit. They just want the money. They provide the illegal service. The illegal abortion doctor would also be the one killing the child, not the mother (but the mother has equal blame because of her action to go to the doctor in the first place). I longer jail sentence and a fine should be given to illegal abortion doctors. Thats what I have to say for punishment.


Who gets to make the call/decision that the baby has no chance if the mother is forced to carry the baby to term? You, the doctor, the husband, the girls parents, the woman? Thats a pretty subjective thing to say. Who are you to say who lives and who dies. After all, history is full of extraordinary men/women that were weak infants. If I recall President Eisenhower was a weak child. What if Ike had been aborted because his mother had some morning sickness?
My point wasn't that the baby should be killed because it has no chance. I actually use that argument against abortion ironically. If the woman will die in childbirth, I see justice in allowing her to abort the pregnacny. This is where the choice comes in. Someone will die in either outcome.
1. The woman chooses to save her life and abort her baby.
2. The woman chooses to give birth and in doing so loses her life.
Choice two sounds much more noble, but because in both cases a life (all lives are equal in worth) will be lost, somebody has to make the choice.

I have been constantly changing my position on this particular case.

wilbur
02-06-2009, 01:08 AM
Currently there can be no punishment because abortion is legal. But if it were made illegal I do not see why the death penalty would be the option to chose. The mother did not want to kill the child out of a desire to accumulate wealth or out of anger or because she hated it...it would have been more likely that she had been raped or that she simply could not take care of a child and did not want to use the adoption option. Obviously the small amount of women who would go into an alley and get an illegal abortion would be smaller than those getting it legally today. The mother may fear giving birth. Death should not be punishment, that is far to extreme. I would say that a month in prison would suffice. Or maybe 9 months considering that is the amount of time the woman would have been pregnant. She killed the baby so instead she gets jailtime. Baby or jail? For those giving the abortions, a harsher punishment is fit. They just want the money. They provide the illegal service. The illegal abortion doctor would also be the one killing the child, not the mother (but the mother has equal blame because of her action to go to the doctor in the first place). I longer jail sentence and a fine should be given to illegal abortion doctors. Thats what I have to say for punishment.


There's reason to think making abortion illegal will not do much to reduce the amount of abortions obtained.

Abortion is just as common, or more-so in countries where it is illegal.

This is the "if you build it, he will come" mentality of pro-lifers. Change the law, God will be happy, good things will happen... don't worry about how, don't bother to study or research to find out if the change will have the desired effect. Just build it, and he will come!

snuglet
02-06-2009, 06:45 AM
So we've established that DNA doesn't provide value in and of itself. So can we shelve the whole DNA thing, once and for all?

You say the first instant DNA is created is simply the starting line where some value comes into being.. but its not actually the DNA that provides it... I say its when the project is a little more complete and the brain begins in its first stirrings of thought. Make arguments for those values, and your reasonings for why those things are valuble... (and you have to some extent, sort of)

But in any case... lets start saying what we mean... instead of serving up rhetorical smokescreens like "Its got DNA!"

DNA absolutely provides value. It's the blueprint for how you develop. It's what makes us human and not trees or fish. A fetus at 8 weeks has all the organs a newborn baby has, with exception of level of development, and brainwaves have been recorded as early as 40 days' gestation. Most women don't even know they're pregnant by then. The growing embryo/fetus is a child, with a complete life of its own.

By your reasoning, perhaps we should also go ahead an kill those disabled people who have questionable though capacity as well?

snuglet
02-06-2009, 06:49 AM
There's reason to think making abortion illegal will not do much to reduce the amount of abortions obtained.

Perhaps not, but the same argument could be said for the illegal act of murder as well. It's ILLEGAL, but that hasn't stopped it from happening, in large numbers, all over the world.



Abortion is just as common, or more-so in countries where it is illegal. Which attests to how sick our world has become



This is the "if you build it, he will come" mentality of pro-lifers. Change the law, God will be happy, good things will happen... don't worry about how, don't bother to study or research to find out if the change will have the desired effect. Just build it, and he will come!

God is already here. And He's laid the law down about murder for thousands of years.

Man's selfishness now decides to define "murder" so the conscience will feel better, but it doesn't change the ultimate fact that abortion is killing of innocent human life (aka murder).

wilbur
02-06-2009, 09:17 AM
I've really addressed everything you have said about 50 times over by now... so I'm tired of repeating myself... but..


Which attests to how sick our world has become

When exactly was man or the world better or more civilized than it is today?

snuglet
02-06-2009, 09:19 AM
I've really addressed everything you have said about 50 times over by now... so I'm tired of repeating myself... but..



When exactly was man or the world better or more civilized than it is today?

Eden.

linda22003
02-06-2009, 09:27 AM
Eden.

Smaller population, and they still screwed it up.

snuglet
02-06-2009, 09:34 AM
Smaller population, and they still screwed it up. Not if you don't believe in God.

Mythic
02-06-2009, 05:31 PM
Abortion is just as common, or more-so in countries where it is illegal.
The countries where abortion is illegal are primarily located in Africa, South America, and South Asia. These countries are already poor, and laws of all types are broken much more frequently. Those countries do not have developed adoption centers. They do not have all of the options we in the United States take for granted. We cannot compare the effects of laws on developing countries with the United States. The situations are totally different.


This is the "if you build it, he will come" mentality of pro-lifers. Change the law, God will be happy, good things will happen... don't worry about how, don't bother to study or research to find out if the change will have the desired effect. Just build it, and he will come!
I never brought God into my argument at all...but go ahead and make stuff up again. I have done plenty of research.
Do you honestly believe that if abortion is made illegal and all clinics are closed there will be more abortions?
If abortion is made illegal and the government supports safer sex programs warning of the consequences of sex, people will think twice before having sex knowing that abortion is not a legal option. It is not logical to say that "Oh, abortion is illegal! I should have sex more and get more abortions!"

wilbur
02-06-2009, 06:13 PM
The countries where abortion is illegal are primarily located in Africa, South America, and South Asia. These countries are already poor, and laws of all types are broken much more frequently. Those countries do not have developed adoption centers. They do not have all of the options we in the United States take for granted. We cannot compare the effects of laws on developing countries with the United States. The situations are totally different.


I never brought God into my argument at all...but go ahead and make stuff up again. I have done plenty of research.
Do you honestly believe that if abortion is made illegal and all clinics are closed there will be more abortions?
If abortion is made illegal and the government supports safer sex programs warning of the consequences of sex, people will think twice before having sex knowing that abortion is not a legal option. It is not logical to say that "Oh, abortion is illegal! I should have sex more and get more abortions!"

Laws simply don't deter some things effectively, is all. Especially when over half the country is sympathetic to the idea or act in question.

wilbur
02-06-2009, 06:15 PM
Eden.

<facepalm>

MrsSmith
02-06-2009, 06:26 PM
After reading your reply I have to say that is one of the best posts I have ever read. I don't agree with you, but you clearly show your commitment and are resolute. Again, I don't agree with you, but you are the only person in this discussion thread that has shown backbone and commitment. For what it's worth, I respect that.




I personally know three woman that are happy, 20 years after the fact, that they had abortions and are quite happy with their decision.

If I can be presumptuous, I think you are making a mistake by thinking that everyone thinks like you do. Some of us aren't religious and some of us don't melt at the sight of a defenseless infant. Some of us don't get all gooey inside when we hold a baby and think they are cute and cuddly and adorable.

That's not what I asked. How many women do you know who considered abortion, had the baby, and now wish they'd aborted?

How many had abortions they will regret forever?

That some are OK with it is well known. That many, many are not is well known. How many did NOT abort, and can look at the child and wish they had?

Mythic
02-06-2009, 10:18 PM
Laws simply don't deter some things effectively, is all. Especially when over half the country is sympathetic to the idea or act in question.
It will take laws + enforcement + time for something to work. Over half the country was sympathetic to slavery at the time of the abolitionists. Yet does that make slavery right? Of course not. Many people followed Hitler. Does that justify his acts? No. Terrorists are also supported by many people, but are their killings right? No. Because some people think something is right does not make it right.


<facepalm>
I can second that...even though I am a Christian that was a pretty lame answer considering that wilbur isn't and doesn't believe in any of that. Useless argument. You can't convince Muslims that Jesus said not to do something because Muslims are not Christians.

MrsSmith
02-06-2009, 10:25 PM
I've really addressed everything you have said about 50 times over by now... so I'm tired of repeating myself... but..



When exactly was man or the world better or more civilized than it is today?

So, because we've always practiced evil, we should not attempt to reduce the evil we do?

wilbur
02-06-2009, 10:57 PM
So, because we've always practiced evil, we should not attempt to reduce the evil we do?

I didnt say that at all. But if one is going to talk about today as if everythings going downhill and to hell and a handbasket, while referencing some unspecified time in the past when everything was allegedly peachy, you are going to get called on it.

Its a myth... such things arent even practically quantifiable.