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megimoo
02-02-2009, 10:39 PM
Holocaust-Denying Bishop Reinstated by Pope Explains His Belief That No Jews Died in Gas Chambers

Attacks on Pope Benedict XVI's decision to lift the excommunication of a Holocaust denier escalated Monday, with one theologian calling on him to step down as the head of the Roman Catholic Church.
Criticism following the pope's January 24 announcement has been particularly cutting in Germany, where denying the Holocaust is a crime punishable with a jail sentence.

"If the pope wants to do some good for the Church, he should leave his job," eminent liberal Catholic theologian Hermann Haering told the German daily Tageszeitung. "That would not be a scandal, a bishop has to relinquish his position at 75 years, a cardinal loses his rights at 80 years," he said. Pope Benedict is 81.

Meanwhile, a senior Vatican official acknowledged the Vatican administration may have made "management errors" with the decision to lift excommunication against four bishops, including Richard Williamson, whose comments sparked the controversy.

"I observe the debate with great concern. There were misunderstandings and management errors in the Curia," said Cardinal Walter Kasper, who is in charge of the Vatican department that deals with Jewish relations. "The Pope wanted to open the debate because he wanted unity inside and outside," the German cardinal told Vatican Radio. He also noted that "these bishops are still suspended."

An international uproar followed the decision to rehabilitate Williamson, an English bishop who has dismissed as "lies" historical evidence that six million Jews were gassed by the Nazis during World War II. Jews and Catholics alike have produced widespread criticism.

"A pardon that tastes of poison," wrote Franco Garelli, an expert in religious history, in Italy's daily La Stampa Monday. "The trouble caused by this complicated affair is evident not only outside the Church but within it," wrote the academic, who spoke of the "profound discomfort stirred up by the lifting of the excommunication in numerous Catholic circles."

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=CNG.8f87fb2a7e55fa1a4415bdfd6c915b3 e.521&show_article=1

linda22003
02-03-2009, 08:02 AM
The last pope broke down barriers between the Catholic Church and Judaism. The current pope seems intent on building them up again.

noonwitch
02-03-2009, 09:07 AM
Did the holocaust denier request to be readmitted into communion? Did he genuinely repent and state that his previous statements denying the holocaust were wrong and misinformed?

If those conditions were met, then it would be in line with christian teaching to readmit him into the church's communion.

linda22003
02-03-2009, 09:26 AM
Naw, he still gets to be a whacko. No repentence needed.

"Bishop Williamson, who has said that the Vatican is controlled by Satan and that the Jews are bent on world domination, reiterated in a broadcast last week on Swedish television that the historical evidence was “hugely against six million having been deliberately gassed in gas chambers as a deliberate policy of Adolf Hitler. I believe there were no gas chambers”. "

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article5585738.ece

Oh, and if you like his views on the holocaust, you'll love what he has to say about women. Apparently we offend God by wearing pants and going to college. :rolleyes:

http://blogs.ft.com/brusselsblog/2009/02/bishop-williamson-takes-aim-at-womens-trousers-and-the-sound-of-music/

noonwitch
02-03-2009, 09:30 AM
Naw, he still gets to be a whacko. No repentence needed.

"Bishop Williamson, who has said that the Vatican is controlled by Satan and that the Jews are bent on world domination, reiterated in a broadcast last week on Swedish television that the historical evidence was “hugely against six million having been deliberately gassed in gas chambers as a deliberate policy of Adolf Hitler. I believe there were no gas chambers”. "

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article5585738.ece

Oh, and if you like his views on the holocaust, you'll love what he has to say about women. Apparently we offend God by wearing pants and going to college. :rolleyes:

http://blogs.ft.com/brusselsblog/2009/02/bishop-williamson-takes-aim-at-womens-trousers-and-the-sound-of-music/


What a guy. I liked JPII, also, and I'm not a catholic. He did work very hard to heal the rift between the church and jews, probably because of his own backround in WWII Poland.

linda22003
02-03-2009, 09:32 AM
John Paul II rescinded the prayer for the conversion of the Jews, calling the Jews our "older brothers" and saying that they have a separate, older covenant with God.

Benedict re-introduced the prayer for the conversion of the Jews. :rolleyes:

Gingersnap
02-03-2009, 10:11 AM
This guy and the media attention he is receiving is sucking the oxygen out of a much more important issue which is dialog with the Lefebvrist leadership.

There are all kinds of misinformed or flat out crazy people who belong to the RCC or who even have leadership positions within it just as those same people turn up in Hasidic Judaism, Islam, atheism, or whatever. That's not important.

What's important is this pope is willing to begin a conversation with the millions of Catholics who view themselves as traditionalists and who have been put in the position of attending SSPX churches. Williamson's personal historical viewpoint is not accepted by the RCC and it has no impact on this decision. Lifting the excommunication is not a reinstatement of authority; it's an acknowledgment that certain specific religious conditions have been fulfilled according to Canon law. This in no way changes the position of the RCC toward Jews or any other non-Christian group.

This might begin the process of conceding that VCII was implemented in a harsh and destructive way by out-of-control bishops who twisted the genuine reforms in order to impose their own personal social and incorrect theological views on helpless Catholics. It might.

That's the real story here; not the personal opinion of one guy who also happened to be caught up in a much wider and more important issues.

linda22003
02-03-2009, 10:19 AM
Still, the actions Benedict is taking makes it appear that he is un-doing what his predecessor did. It was JPII who did the excommunications after Lefebvre consecrated the bishops, right?

Gingersnap
02-03-2009, 10:37 AM
Still, the actions Benedict is taking makes it appear that he is un-doing what his predecessor did. It was JPII who did the excommunications after Lefebvre consecrated the bishops, right?

Yes, but the issues involved here are extremely complex and very esoteric. The then Cardinal Ratzinger was very involved an effort to reconcile the Lefebvrists prior to the ordination. If anyone alive today understands the issues, both technical and doctrinal, it's the current pope.

There have been a number of abuses that grew out of the second council. To cultural Catholics, non-Catholics, and secular observers these abuses have been confused with the reforms. There is a growing movement to distinguish between these things and to identify and eliminate the abuses. This process can look as though Catholics are rejecting the actual reforms of VCII but that is absolutely not true. However, the observations of the media, politicians, and various poorly informed pundits is hurting, not helping, this process.

People in SSPX churches would like nothing better than to regularize their relationship with Rome.

linda22003
02-03-2009, 10:39 AM
There have been a number of abuses that grew out of the second council. To cultural Catholics, non-Catholics, and secular observers these abuses have been confused with the reforms.

If you mean "folk/guitar" masses, I couldn't agree more. :p

Gingersnap
02-03-2009, 11:05 AM
If you mean "folk/guitar" masses, I couldn't agree more. :p

That's actually a part of it - the diminishment of the solemn dignity of the mass but it extends to a lot of things. Some are obvious like the various erroneous prohibitions against kneeling to receive communion on the tongue or allowing Latin masses to be sung. Others are a deliberate rejection of doctrine or dogma in order to push certain social agendas such sanctioning collective absolution outside of emergencies or allowing the "cafeteria" approach to Catholic teachings in schools or in RCIA classes.

megimoo
02-03-2009, 11:16 AM
If you mean "folk/guitar" masses, I couldn't agree more. :p
You sound just like a disgruntled former Catholic theologian sweety ?

megimoo
02-03-2009, 11:32 AM
That's actually a part of it - the diminishment of the solemn dignity of the mass but it extends to a lot of things. Some are obvious like the various erroneous prohibitions against kneeling to receive communion on the tongue or allowing Latin masses to be sung. Others are a deliberate rejection of doctrine or dogma in order to push certain social agendas such sanctioning collective absolution outside of emergencies or allowing the "cafeteria" approach to Catholic teachings in schools or in RCIA classes.
You do continue to amaze me with the depth of your knowledge of the liturgy and dogma of the Catholic church.You put forth the church's tenants in a clear and concise way without judgemental comments and without the personal venom so often found in disillusioned Former Catholics .

Gingersnap
02-03-2009, 11:47 AM
You do continue to amaze me with the depth of your knowledge of the liturgy and dogma of the Catholic church.You put forth the church's tenants in a clear and concise way without judgemental comments and without the personal venom so often found in disillusioned Former Catholics .

I have no quarrel with the RCC or any other historic Christian tradition. There's a reason they are 'historic'. The doctrines of Orthodoxy, Catholicism, and the great reformed churches of Protestantism are all worthy of endless study. A lifetime of effort would only scratch the surface. ;)

linda22003
02-03-2009, 11:51 AM
You sound just like a disgruntled former Catholic theologian sweety ?

I went to a Jesuit university, which was enough to disgruntle me as far as the Catholic church, but I'm not, and never have been, Catholic.

megimoo
02-03-2009, 12:49 PM
I went to a Jesuit university, which was enough to disgruntle me as far as the Catholic church, but I'm not, and never have been, Catholic.
That in itself is sign of GOD'S mercy to the Catholic church .Let me guess ,Georgetown, if so that would explain much about you !Georgetown is no longer considered to be a Christian university .The Jesuits took down the crucifixes as a cause of embarrassment to them while teaching the heathen and Islamic students .

linda22003
02-03-2009, 01:13 PM
As usual, your guessing is wrong. So is referring to "tenants" of the Catholic Church; tenants are renters. The word you want is "tenets".

megimoo
02-03-2009, 01:29 PM
As usual, your guessing is wrong. So is referring to "tenants" of the Catholic Church; tenants are renters. The word you want is "tenets".I can always count on you to be there for me.Every word,every key stroke is screutinized and judged.You may continue to be a massive bore but you do have some small redeming uses,Arigato .

Gingersnap
02-03-2009, 01:44 PM
I can always count on you to be there for me.Every word,every key stroke is screutinized and judged.You may continue to be a massive bore but you do have some small redeming uses,Arigato .

LOL!

I have to say that watching you two go at it is vastly entertaining. It's like watching a professional tennis match played with badminton rackets and beach balls. :p

linda22003
02-03-2009, 02:16 PM
I can always count on you to be there for me.Every word,every key stroke is screutinized and judged.You may continue to be a massive bore but you do have some small redeming uses,Arigato .

It's never too late for literacy. I still have some amount of (fading) hope for you. :p

megimoo
02-03-2009, 03:03 PM
It's never too late for literacy. I still have some amount of (fading) hope for you. :pYour hope isn't the only thing that's fading ,sweet thang !http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JFFW1pp1r8&feature=related

Sonnabend
02-03-2009, 05:04 PM
Megi is very literate...in fact, megi is one of the most thoughtful people I know. The articles he catches and posts are diverse...and ALWAYS interesting.

He has a knack for feeling what the major issues are and what's relevant...and sometimes fun.

A priest that doesn't like women wearing pants..?

Knickerless women.....:D:D

I can live with that :D

*runs*