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FlaGator
02-18-2009, 11:23 AM
More "what the heck" news out of England


A foster mother with ten years' experience has been struck off after a Muslim girl she was looking after converted to Christianity, it has been reported.

By Matthew Moore
Last Updated: 5:10PM GMT 08 Feb 2009

A local council removed the woman from their register for failing to "respect and preserve" the teenager's faith, even though the girl made her own decision to change religion when she was 16.

The carer, a churchgoer in her 50s who has fostered more than 80 children, is now planning legal action against the council, amid complaints from religious groups that Christians are increasingly becoming victims of discrimination.

She claims that she did not pressurise the girl, who was put in care after being assaulted by a family member, to convert, and actually tried to discourage her initial interest in Christianity.

"We had a multicultural household and I had no problems helping the young person maintain her faith of birth," the woman, who cannot be named for legal reasons, told the Mail on Sunday.

"I have always prided myself on being very professional in what I do."

She added: "I offered her alternatives. I offered to find her places to practise her own religion. I offered to take her to friends or family. But she said to me from the word go: 'I am interested and I want to come [to church]'."

The carer claims that social services from the counvil, which also cannot be named for legal reason, were aware that the girl was attending a Christian church, but her foster manager became "incandescent with rage" when she was baptised.

Council officials advised the teenager to reconsider her decision, and in November struck the carer off their register, citing a breakdown of trust.

The rest can be read here (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/4557618/Christian-foster-mother-struck-off-after-Muslim-girl-converts.html)

Odysseus
02-18-2009, 12:26 PM
More "what the heck" news out of England
The rest can be read here (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/4557618/Christian-foster-mother-struck-off-after-Muslim-girl-converts.html)


She claims that she did not pressurise the girl, who was put in care after being assaulted by a family member, to convert, and actually tried to discourage her initial interest in Christianity.
SNIP!
The girl, who is now 17 and back with her family who are thought to be unaware of her conversion, is supporting the woman's legal action, which is being funded by the Christian Institute.
How much you want to bet that the assault involved an "honor" issue? For that matter, how screwed up is a council that considers an abusive family to be a better place to put a girl than with a Christian foster home?

noonwitch
02-18-2009, 01:20 PM
The book I've been reading, Infidel, by Ayaan Hirsi Ali, is very enlightening on these matters.

In the system I work in, we don't coerce kids into any type of religious preference and make accomodations for whatever belief they have. If a 16 year old rejects her family's religion and chooses a different one, we may all discuss it in a family session but the kid is allowed more freedom than my mother allowed me in that sense.

I'll bet Odysseus is right and it was an honor-related issue. She probably didn't cover her ankles, or looked a man directly in the eye.

AlmostThere
02-19-2009, 01:26 AM
I apologize in advance for hijacking this thread. It seems like it's every day where we read about some, for lack of a better word, attack on Christianity. To make matters worse, many times this attack on Christianity is just part of an unfair and unwarranted accommodation made to Islam. We throw up our hands, we moan, we might even bitch and then the next day we go through the same little routine for the offense du jour.

I know that no one has an answer for me. I guess I'm just venting. But if I may pose a question that is just for your consideration, "When does this crap stop? What will be the straw?"

FlaGator
02-19-2009, 08:37 AM
I apologize in advance for hijacking this thread. It seems like it's every day where we read about some, for lack of a better word, attack on Christianity. To make matters worse, many times this attack on Christianity is just part of an unfair and unwarranted accommodation made to Islam. We throw up our hands, we moan, we might even bitch and then the next day we go through the same little routine for the offense du jour.

I know that no one has an answer for me. I guess I'm just venting. But if I may pose a question that is just for your consideration, "When does this crap stop? What will be the straw?"

If I am to judge by the teachings of Christ it will not stop, it will only get worse. As PC as our country can seem to be at times North America, South America and Africa may eventually be the final refuges for Christians and America is tittering.

noonwitch
02-19-2009, 09:17 AM
I apologize in advance for hijacking this thread. It seems like it's every day where we read about some, for lack of a better word, attack on Christianity. To make matters worse, many times this attack on Christianity is just part of an unfair and unwarranted accommodation made to Islam. We throw up our hands, we moan, we might even bitch and then the next day we go through the same little routine for the offense du jour.

I know that no one has an answer for me. I guess I'm just venting. But if I may pose a question that is just for your consideration, "When does this crap stop? What will be the straw?"


This case isn't in the USA, it's in England, where they are making far more accomodations to Islam than I think would happen here.

I think that you have to look at the differences between the two religions. Jesus taught his followers to love their enemies and to be good to people whether they like you or thank you or not. There's nothing in the Koran that admonishes muslims to treat non-muslim people well-quite the opposite, from my understanding (I have not read the Koran, just seen quotes from it here and there).

In this case, the issue should not be what religion the teen chose, but that she has the right to choose her own faith. Making it about the foster mother's religion, when you are talking about a 16 year old kid, is not correct. It is a normal phase in human development for young people to explore other religious ideas and maybe decide to join a different religious tradition than their parents.

Odysseus
02-19-2009, 11:35 AM
"When does this crap stop? What will be the straw?"
According to the Imams, when we're all on our knees, facing Mecca

This case isn't in the USA, it's in England, where they are making far more accomodations to Islam than I think would happen here.
We're starting down that road. The flying Imams lawsuit was an attempt to intimidate Americans in the face of questionable behavior by Moslems. Fortunately, it failed (they should have filed in the Ninth Circus, er... Circuit), but there will be other attempts. Unfortunately, Islam is a religion as well as a political project, and is protected under the First Amendment in a way that communism and fascism are not. Thus, when an Imam demands the overthrow of the US government (which is what a demand for the institution of Sharia law is), he is not simply guilty of sedition, he is engaging in protected religious practice as guaranteed by the First Amendment. I don't know how we can stop that so long as the only religious practice that the ACLU will defend seems to be advocacy of violent jihad.


I think that you have to look at the differences between the two religions. Jesus taught his followers to love their enemies and to be good to people whether they like you or thank you or not. There's nothing in the Koran that admonishes muslims to treat non-muslim people well-quite the opposite, from my understanding (I have not read the Koran, just seen quotes from it here and there).

In this case, the issue should not be what religion the teen chose, but that she has the right to choose her own faith. Making it about the foster mother's religion, when you are talking about a 16 year old kid, is not correct. It is a normal phase in human development for young people to explore other religious ideas and maybe decide to join a different religious tradition than their parents.

There are a number of issues involved here. First is the safety issue. The teen, having converted from Islam, is now in serious danger (apostasy carries a death sentence in Islam), and given the violence already established in her family, she should not have been returned to them. If they find out about her conversion, we'll be reading about her murder, or at the very least, her return to foster care or some other protective custody.

Second, while I can understand rules that would prevent a foster family from prosletyzing or otherwise trying to coerce religious conversions on a captive audience, it seems apparent that the foster mother in this case not only did not prosletyze, but actively discouraged the conversion, but was assumed to be guilty because she was a Christian and the girl converted to Christianity. If the girl had decided to become a Buddhist, nobody would have thought that the foster mom was behind it, and there would not have been a reprisal. Of course, if the foster mom had been a Buddhist or some other non-Judeo-Christian religion and encouraged the conversion, the council would have probably been a lot more lenient. The PC religious dynamics at work here are anti-Christian bigotry and fear of offending Moslems. As for where one ends and the other begins, it's hard to say, since the same multicultural weasel words about sensitivity and the like would be used with either motive.

noonwitch
02-19-2009, 12:01 PM
There are a number of issues involved here. First is the safety issue. The teen, having converted from Islam, is now in serious danger (apostasy carries a death sentence in Islam), and given the violence already established in her family, she should not have been returned to them. If they find out about her conversion, we'll be reading about her murder, or at the very least, her return to foster care or some other protective custody.

Second, while I can understand rules that would prevent a foster family from prosletyzing or otherwise trying to coerce religious conversions on a captive audience, it seems apparent that the foster mother in this case not only did not prosletyze, but actively discouraged the conversion, but was assumed to be guilty because she was a Christian and the girl converted to Christianity. If the girl had decided to become a Buddhist, nobody would have thought that the foster mom was behind it, and there would not have been a reprisal. Of course, if the foster mom had been a Buddhist or some other non-Judeo-Christian religion and encouraged the conversion, the council would have probably been a lot more lenient. The PC religious dynamics at work here are anti-Christian bigotry and fear of offending Moslems. As for where one ends and the other begins, it's hard to say, since the same multicultural weasel words about sensitivity and the like would be used with either motive.[/QUOTE]



One of my coworkers used to work in a runaway shelter, which is totally voluntary on both the kids' and the parents' parts. She had a young muslim girl who ran away and then left voluntarily to go back to her parents. Her father killed her on her birthday, for having a boyfriend that he didn't approve of.

Under US law, I really think that a similar matter would best be covered as a religious freedom issue. The young lady has a right to choose her own religion, without fear of death or beatings. I agree with you that there is anti-christian bigotry involved in this matter, that is why I think the focus on the kid's rights is the best approach.

I'm glad I no longer work at the office that covers the Dearborn area, and that when I did, I was a delinquency worker, not a foster care or protective services worker.

Odysseus
02-19-2009, 12:57 PM
One of my coworkers used to work in a runaway shelter, which is totally voluntary on both the kids' and the parents' parts. She had a young muslim girl who ran away and then left voluntarily to go back to her parents. Her father killed her on her birthday, for having a boyfriend that he didn't approve of.
Apparently, there are a lot more honor killings in the US than most people are aware of.


Under US law, I really think that a similar matter would best be covered as a religious freedom issue. The young lady has a right to choose her own religion, without fear of death or beatings. I agree with you that there is anti-christian bigotry involved in this matter, that is why I think the focus on the kid's rights is the best approach.

I'm glad I no longer work at the office that covers the Dearborn area, and that when I did, I was a delinquency worker, not a foster care or protective services worker.
The focus on the kid's rights is secondary to the focus on the kid's safety. She's going to have a hard time singing hymns if her throat has been cut. Returning her to her family, which already has a history of violence towards her and to her community, which has a history of violence towards everyone, after she's converted is tantamount to a death sentence.

AlmostThere
02-19-2009, 02:57 PM
This case isn't in the USA, it's in England, where they are making far more accomodations to Islam than I think would happen here.
San Bernardino County paid $45,000 to settle a lawsuit where a woman, legally arrested, sued for having to remove her hijab for mugshots in front of a male deputy. I think we're well on our way in catching up with Europe in appeasement. It's almost funny how when a Westerner commits an offense against local custom in an Islamic land, they are considered disrespectful and punished for the offense. When a Muslim is required to adhere to our customs and laws, we are intolerant and are punished for offending them. Yea, we're on our way.

PoliCon
02-19-2009, 03:13 PM
More "what the heck" news out of England



The rest can be read here (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/4557618/Christian-foster-mother-struck-off-after-Muslim-girl-converts.html)

Would they have done the same to a muslim woman if the a Christian child became a mulsim? I think not. :rolleyes:

FlaGator
02-19-2009, 03:15 PM
Would they have done the same to a muslim woman if the a Christian child became a mulsim? I think not. :rolleyes:

Probably would have given the woman's husband the keys to the city.

Odysseus
02-19-2009, 04:24 PM
San Bernardino County paid $45,000 to settle a lawsuit where a woman, legally arrested, sued for having to remove her hijab for mugshots in front of a male deputy. I think we're well on our way in catching up with Europe in appeasement. It's almost funny how when a Westerner commits an offense against local custom in an Islamic land, they are considered disrespectful and punished for the offense. When a Muslim is required to adhere to our customs and laws, we are intolerant and are punished for offending them. Yea, we're on our way.
True. Remember the teacher whose class named their teddy bear "Mohammed" in Sudan? Jailed and threatened with 40 lashes (which would have killed her), and she didn't even pick the name. Meanwhile, Moslem cabbies refuse to carry passengers from the airport if they have alcohol. If a Christian cabby refused to carry a Moslem for any reason ("The plaintiff was wearing an 'I love jihad' t-shirt under his suicide vest, your honor...."), he'd be buried in lawsuits, not to mention the loss of his hack license.

Would they have done the same to a muslim woman if the a Christian child became a mulsim? I think not. :rolleyes:
I can't imagine a Moslem family taking in non-Moslems in a foster care program unless the deliberate intent were to convert the child. The culture is so insular and the attitude towards infidels is so negative that it would preclude charitable impulses for someone outside of the clan and faith.

Probably would have given the woman's husband the keys to the city.
While she stood a respectful distance back.

noonwitch
02-20-2009, 09:23 AM
The focus on the kid's rights is secondary to the focus on the kid's safety. She's going to have a hard time singing hymns if her throat has been cut. Returning her to her family, which already has a history of violence towards her and to her community, which has a history of violence towards everyone, after she's converted is tantamount to a death sentence.



I suspect that this is one of the things we will have to be addressing in my field over the next ten years or so, especially in the Detroit area. We do have a good arab-american agency in metro Detroit, but it works because it's leadership is not exclusively muslim, but also has many chaldeans and lebenese christians. They help women get away from abusive partners or parents, I have witnessed this in a professional sense. It's unfortunate that the girl my coworker knew didn't seek their help.


So, of course, we will have to go to more ethnic sensitivity trainings (which can be interesting, depending on who is teaching and the group being taught). I went to one in Lansing where we found out about Laotion culture, because the CRC and RCA settled a lot of Laotion refugees in West Michigan. But our policy, as it stands now, is that we won't return children to a home where we know she is going to face abuse again. If my coworker's kid at the shelter had been in the foster care system, she probably wouldn't have been sent home. And, our community partners at the private agency would have backed us and helped her get away to college or something. We have a deal for our kids with one of the state universities in West Michigan.