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FlaGator
03-25-2009, 08:31 PM
African American Pastor Sent to Jail for Offering Abortion Alternatives on Public Sidewalk

OAKLAND, CA, March 23, 2009 (LifeSiteNews.com) - On Friday the Rev. Walter Hoye of Berkeley, California, was ordered to serve 30 days in county jail by Judge Stuart Hing of the Alameda Superior Court. Rev. Hoye had been found guilty on January 15, 2009, of unlawfully approaching two persons entering an abortion facility in Oakland. Judge Hing had also ordered him to stay one hundred yards away from the abortion facility for three years. However, Rev. Hoye refused this term of probation and would not agree to a stay-away order. Therefore, the judge denied the defense motion to stay the sentence pending appeal. Mr Hoye was taken into custody from the courtroom.

At a hearing on February 19, Judge Hing stated that he had not intended to impose any fine or jail time on Rev. Hoye if he would agree to stay away from the abortion facility. After Rev. Hoye refused to agree not to offer alternatives to abortion-minded women, Judge Hing imposed a 30-day sentence and $1130 fine.

Dozens in the African-American and pro-life communities from around the nation who came out in support of Rev. Hoye were outraged by the sentence.

"It is absolutely incredible that in America an individual can be sentenced to jail for engaging in peaceful free speech activity on a public sidewalk," remarked Allison Aranda, Staff Counsel for Life Legal Defense Foundation. "Rev. Hoye is being singled out for particularly harsh punishment because he refused to agree not to offer help to women considering abortion. Where is the justice in that?"


I really enjoyed the icing on the cake that the Oakland city council added.

Read it all here (http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2009/mar/09032305.html)

PoliCon
03-25-2009, 09:30 PM
so it's legal to coerce people into abortion - but illegal to ask them not to have one? :rolleyes:

FlaGator
03-26-2009, 06:30 AM
so it's legal to coerce people into abortion - but illegal to ask them not to have one? :rolleyes:

Apparently. And intent is now illegal. What is next? With the arrest people who approach others to offer them an alternative to voting for their current or party affilication or an alternative to whatever faith or denomination they are? This sounds like some law that someone on DU concocted like the deleting of all posts that are critical of Obama.

noonwitch
03-26-2009, 07:39 AM
This is an extreme decision against someone who was acting peacefully.

It never would have happened, however, if not for some of the more radical and sometimes violent behavior of more extremist anti-abortion activists in the past. The laws that create a safety zone (or whatever term is used legally) around the clinics were put there to protect the employees and patients from direct threats, like the people who have murdered abortion providers and who have burned down clinics. I understand that most people who are opposed to abortion are not associated with those actions, but the courts and city councils have had to deal with the small group who are frequently over the last few decades.

I think the Reverend probably would do more good if he worked with a clinic that provided abortion alternatives and counseling for pregnant women. He could counsel women, or he could do fundraising and a public awareness campaign about the programs. I have no problem with people making women aware of their options, as long as those doing so are upfront and honest about their intentions.

Rebel Yell
03-26-2009, 10:12 AM
Dozens in the African-American and pro-life communities from around the nation who came out in support of Rev. Hoye were outraged by the sentence.

Why? This has nothing to do with race.:confused:

Lars1701a
03-26-2009, 10:19 AM
This is an extreme decision against someone who was acting peacefully.

It never would have happened, however, if not for some of the more radical and sometimes violent behavior of more extremist anti-abortion activists in the past. The laws that create a safety zone (or whatever term is used legally) around the clinics were put there to protect the employees and patients from direct threats, like the people who have murdered abortion providers and who have burned down clinics. I understand that most people who are opposed to abortion are not associated with those actions, but the courts and city councils have had to deal with the small group who are frequently over the last few decades.

I think the Reverend probably would do more good if he worked with a clinic that provided abortion alternatives and counseling for pregnant women. He could counsel women, or he could do fundraising and a public awareness campaign about the programs. I have no problem with people making women aware of their options, as long as those doing so are upfront and honest about their intentions.



Can you come up with the number of abortion providers killed? has to be tons if they restricting Free speech like this.


Its murder pure and simple Noon you dont sit down and "work" with murderers, you stop them.

Phillygirl
03-26-2009, 11:10 AM
Dozens in the African-American and pro-life communities from around the nation who came out in support of Rev. Hoye were outraged by the sentence.

Why? This has nothing to do with race.:confused:

I had some trouble with that as well. Although there is a fairly valid argument (I don't remember the statistics, though), that abortion is being pushed on the AA community in an effort to affect that population in particular. To that extent I can see this as a valid concern of the AA community, as well as the pro-life community.

Rebel Yell
03-26-2009, 11:12 AM
I had some trouble with that as well. Although there is a fairly valid argument (I don't remember the statistics, though), that abortion is being pushed on the AA community in an effort to affect that population in particular. To that extent I can see this as a valid concern of the AA community, as well as the pro-life community.

That, I can see. I just figured it was because the preacher was black.

noonwitch
03-26-2009, 12:22 PM
Can you come up with the number of abortion providers killed? has to be tons if they restricting Free speech like this.


Its murder pure and simple Noon you dont sit down and "work" with murderers, you stop them.


Stats for the years 1989-2004 are available at www.religioustolerance.org/abo_vio.htm

The numbers are broken down in categories, like murders/attempted murders, arson/attempted arsons, and so on.

The first link doesn't bring up the page, so this one will

www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/violence/murders.asp

Lars1701a
03-26-2009, 01:45 PM
Stats for the years 1989-2004 are available at www.religioustolerance.org/abo_vio.htm

The numbers are broken down in categories, like murders/attempted murders, arson/attempted arsons, and so on.

The first link doesn't bring up the page, so this one will

www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/violence/murders.asp



10 killings vs 100 of millions, they should really go after people like the OP described we need to nip this in the bud. :rolleyes:

noonwitch
03-26-2009, 02:36 PM
10 killings vs 100 of millions, they should really go after people like the OP described we need to nip this in the bud. :rolleyes:


Like it or not, the law recognizes the 10 killings as murders, not the "100 of millions" of abortions. Therefore, the law is going to protect the doctors, patients and clinic employees from threats of violence.

Legitimate anti-abortion organizations, like Right To Life, do not advocate violence against abortion providers or clinics. They encourage peaceful protests and working to change people's minds. Fringe extremist groups encourage and condone violence.

You could get into the whole Dietrich Bonhoeffer argument about whether violence against evil is acceptable in God's eyes (as he was convicted by the Nazis of plotting Hitler's assassination). I believe his argument went along the lines of "if a madman got into a car, isn't it your responsibility to stop him from driving?". Most americans don't buy into a comparison of legalized abortion and the Holocaust, though, for one thing.

Rebel Yell
03-26-2009, 03:00 PM
Like it or not, the law recognizes the 10 killings as murders, not the "100 of millions" of abortions. Therefore, the law is going to protect the doctors, patients and clinic employees from threats of violence.

Legitimate anti-abortion organizations, like Right To Life, do not advocate violence against abortion providers or clinics. They encourage peaceful protests and working to change people's minds. Fringe extremist groups encourage and condone violence.

You could get into the whole Dietrich Bonhoeffer argument about whether violence against evil is acceptable in God's eyes (as he was convicted by the Nazis of plotting Hitler's assassination). I believe his argument went along the lines of "if a madman got into a car, isn't it your responsibility to stop him from driving?". Most americans don't buy into a comparison of legalized abortion and the Holocaust, though, for one thing.

By that rationale, young, black males shouldn't be allowed near Korean owned convenience stores.:rolleyes:

noonwitch
03-26-2009, 03:42 PM
By that rationale, young, black males shouldn't be allowed near Korean owned convenience stores.:rolleyes:


You know, in Detroit, it's chaldean and arab-owned convenience stores.

But by Lars' standards, it's okay to kill abortion clinic providers because he thinks that they are responsible for killing "100 of millions".

Rebel Yell
03-26-2009, 03:51 PM
You know, in Detroit, it's chaldean and arab-owned convenience stores.

But by Lars' standards, it's okay to kill abortion clinic providers because he thinks that they are responsible for killing "100 of millions".

It's not OK to kill anyone, unless you're in imenent danger from them or they're in your house without permission.

But they shouldn't get special safety precautions either.

AlmostThere
03-26-2009, 04:20 PM
According to the article, it is perfectly legal to approach someone to encourage them to enter the clinic, but illegal to approach someone with an alternative to entering. An alternative such as an adoption agency.

This strikes me as unfair business practices. The state is legalizing speech which directs business to one industry and making speech illegal which directs business to their "competitors". If morality isn't a good enough reason, maybe existing laws on business practices might work.

Phillygirl
03-26-2009, 04:27 PM
This is an extreme decision against someone who was acting peacefully.

It never would have happened, however, if not for some of the more radical and sometimes violent behavior of more extremist anti-abortion activists in the past. The laws that create a safety zone (or whatever term is used legally) around the clinics were put there to protect the employees and patients from direct threats, like the people who have murdered abortion providers and who have burned down clinics. I understand that most people who are opposed to abortion are not associated with those actions, but the courts and city councils have had to deal with the small group who are frequently over the last few decades.

I think the Reverend probably would do more good if he worked with a clinic that provided abortion alternatives and counseling for pregnant women. He could counsel women, or he could do fundraising and a public awareness campaign about the programs. I have no problem with people making women aware of their options, as long as those doing so are upfront and honest about their intentions.

My guess is that he does that as well. Most that are that committed to the issue, and engage in the kind of activity described in the article, do. It's where I meet most of the sincere pro-lifers...at places like Mother's Home and Birthright, etc. There is no reason to assume that his activity in this regard is limited to going directly to those that are about to kill their unborn.

MrsSmith
03-26-2009, 05:16 PM
Stats for the years 1989-2004 are available at www.religioustolerance.org/abo_vio.htm

The numbers are broken down in categories, like murders/attempted murders, arson/attempted arsons, and so on.

The first link doesn't bring up the page, so this one will

www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/violence/murders.asp


Looking at your link, I see one US doctor killed and one injured in 1993, both perpetrators are in jail. One doctor and escort killed in 1994, perpetrator executed. 2 killed and 5 injured in 1994, perpetrator dead. In 1997, one doctor shot, no outcome, suspect has committed several crimes in Canada. In 1998, a clinic bombing by a guy who also targetted gay bars and the Olympics...so somewhat suspect as an actual "anti-abortion" crime. And in 1998, one doctor killed, perpetrator was probably the same as the 1997 guy.


In comparison, from 1993 through 1997, in addition to millions of fetal murders, 36 women died from legal abortions. Maybe it's safer to be an abortion provider than to be the patient.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5103a1.htm

Odysseus
03-26-2009, 05:44 PM
I had some trouble with that as well. Although there is a fairly valid argument (I don't remember the statistics, though), that abortion is being pushed on the AA community in an effort to affect that population in particular. To that extent I can see this as a valid concern of the AA community, as well as the pro-life community.
A great deal of the early eugenics movement revolved around using various means to reduce the breeding of "undesirables" which included African-Americans. Abortion was one of the means advocated, as was forced sterilization and eventually, mass extermination. Margaret Sanger promoted what she referred to as the "Negro Project," which was part of her overall family planning agenda, which proposed to reduce the African-American population through abortion. Jesse Jackson used to be pro-life for just this reason, but switched to the other side when he became a player in the Democratic Party.

10 killings vs 100 of millions, they should really go after people like the OP described we need to nip this in the bud. :rolleyes:
The liberal position has always been that it is better that 100 guilty people go free rather than one innocent be punished. Now, it's better to abort a million babies than let one woman be inconvenienced.