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View Full Version : Trying to Put Lipstick on a Pig (Planned Parenthood)



megimoo
06-29-2008, 02:41 PM
................"Is like trying to 'shine a sneaker !"

Planned Parenthood is in search of a makeover. For years, the organization has been the biggest abortionist in the business, but as abortion is losing its cachet, Planned Parenthood is trying to reinvent itself. It seems that killing children for cash is just not as fashionable as it used to be. According to Stephanie Simon of the Wall Street Journal, Planned Parenthood wants to "[open] new avenues for boosting revenue and, they hope, political clout." The first step in the organization's redo involves marketing itself to customers in a higher income bracket. Planned Parenthood is building new centers with larger... snip

In its early years Planned Parenthood was directed by Margaret Sanger who advocated for a "right" for women to choose to kill their unborn children. She also promoted a Congressional plan which would, in part, "apply a stern and rigid policy of sterilization and segregation to that grade of population whose progeny is already tainted or whose inheritance is such that objectionable traits may be transmitted to offspring."

Sanger wanted to use reproductive controls to halt the "vicious cycle" of poverty and ignorance. She argued, "There is only one cure for both, and that is to stop breeding these things. Stop bringing to birth children whose inheritance cannot be one of health or intelligence. Stop bringing into the world children whose parents cannot provide for them. Herein lies the key of civilization."

Sanger advocated "choice" as a tool for eugenics. "Only upon a free, self-determining motherhood can rest any unshakable structure of racial betterment." Yet she did not believe that this exalted idea of choice should apply to "the undeniably feeble-minded." In other words, Sanger thought the mentally handicapped should be sterilized by force, people should be sterilized to remove unwanted traits from the populace, and the country should seek racial perfection.


http://townhall.com/columnists/KenConnor/2008/06/29/trying_to_put_lipstick_on_a_pig

Lanie
06-29-2008, 08:00 PM
Planned Parenthood has always provided services outside of abortion. They are a place to get birth control (which leads out to less unwanted pregnancies and abortions). Women can get examined there. If they are poor, they might be able to get examined on a sliding scale.

The stuff Sanger said was wrong. Choicer activists today do not agree with her. However, I think historical context needs to be considered. There was an increase of poverty and immigration, and an increase of crime came with that. We also had a problem with Epileptics, handicaps, mentally retarded people, and others being institutionalized. If you had certain problems during the early 20th century, you had no future. You were going to be locked up for the rest of your life. To top it all off, people were ignorant about what caused certain problems. They thought it was always heredity.

The "Progressive" movement was actually trying to find more humane solutions to these problems. We *now* know that these were not good solutions and were dehumanizing.

One thing you learn when you study history is that people considered to be heroes normally do have a dark side. Seriously, name a "hero" in history, and I can probably find something wrong with them.

As an Epileptic and one who works with kids with disabilities, I find Sanger's ideas offensive. But as a woman, I'm happy that she and others laid it on the line for my right not to become a baby machine (because birth control used to be against the law in some areas). She actually went to jail for that.

MrsSmith
06-29-2008, 08:27 PM
Women have always had the right to not be baby machines. :rolleyes: My grandmother limited her children to one, because they got the son they wanted the first try. My great-grandmother stopped after 4. Neither of them had access or needed the services of Planned Parenthood. Of course, they were both intelligent and self-controlled ladies...something that seems to be rare these days.

The problem with Planned Parenthood isn't that they help women avoid getting pregnant...it's that they go ahead and kill the kids that are conceived despite all their birth control.

noonwitch
06-30-2008, 01:44 PM
My college friends preferred to go to Planned Parenthood for birth control and OB/GYN treatment than to the WMU Health Center (or, as we called it, the Death Center). They could get a month's supply of pills for $4, and I think it was $10 at the Health Center. Plus, PP was conveniently located near campus in Kalamazoo, and it is close to MSU's campus in E. Lansing. I took a friend to the one in K-zoo for an abortion once. I had to sit with her during her pre-procedure counseling (before there was the Michigan Law that mandated a 24 hour waiting period). The first question she was asked was "Do you have any reasons why you wouldn't want to go through with an abortion?", and I really think if my friend had said yes, they would have had a very long discussion about all of her options, not just abortion- a few years later, I knew someone who did a social work internship there, who said that's how it was handled. They didn't want a woman to have emotional problems later because she wasn't sure she wanted to go through with it.

Probably every Planned Parenthood office is different-the ones in K-zoo and Lansing did abortions, but the one in Grand Rapids only did birth control.

Junebug68
06-30-2008, 03:16 PM
What it all boils down to is they kill babies. No amount of spin can change that.

CLibertarian
06-30-2008, 03:51 PM
My college friends preferred to go to Planned Parenthood for birth control and OB/GYN treatment than to the WMU Health Center (or, as we called it, the Death Center). They could get a month's supply of pills for $4, and I think it was $10 at the Health Center. Plus, PP was conveniently located near campus in Kalamazoo, and it is close to MSU's campus in E. Lansing. I took a friend to the one in K-zoo for an abortion once. I had to sit with her during her pre-procedure counseling (before there was the Michigan Law that mandated a 24 hour waiting period). The first question she was asked was "Do you have any reasons why you wouldn't want to go through with an abortion?", and I really think if my friend had said yes, they would have had a very long discussion about all of her options, not just abortion- a few years later, I knew someone who did a social work internship there, who said that's how it was handled. They didn't want a woman to have emotional problems later because she wasn't sure she wanted to go through with it.

Probably every Planned Parenthood office is different-the ones in K-zoo and Lansing did abortions, but the one in Grand Rapids only did birth control.

Last summer, My wife and I offered to adopt the child of a teenage girl that we knew after we found out that she had scheduled one. She was the younger sister of my wife's coworker. Apparantly, she was pressured to continue with it even after we offered to adopt her child. She also told us that PP had not couseled her that adoption was even an option for her. Our state requires this to occur. However, the city in which this PP is located in a liberal haven. They counseled her on the one choice that they wanted her to make so that they could take in their money. PP is evil.

wilbur
06-30-2008, 03:59 PM
What it all boils down to is they kill babies. No amount of spin can change that.

I hear they eat them afterwards.

Straight from the pits of hell they are, just like all liberals!!

Shannon
06-30-2008, 04:06 PM
I hear they eat them afterwards.

Straight from the pits of hell they are, just like all liberals!!

Sometimes you really behave like an ass.:rolleyes:

YupItsMe
06-30-2008, 04:09 PM
I hear they eat them afterwards.

Straight from the pits of hell they are, just like all liberals!!


You just have a little party afterwards right asshole. It's not about religion, it's about life and death. But I have to admit i wish your mother had made a different choice.

LogansPapa
06-30-2008, 04:24 PM
I hear they eat them afterwards.

Straight from the pits of hell they are, just like all liberals!!

Full Marks in the Shit Stirring Dept., wilbur!:p

biccat
07-01-2008, 09:55 AM
Plus, PP was conveniently located near campus in Kalamazoo, and it is close to MSU's campus in E. Lansing.
PP is practically across the street from the Campus health center at Michigan State.

Although it does have the advantage of being near a tattoo parlor, potentially driving more clients.

It's also located almost next door to the comic book shop, but I think that is more coincidence than anything.

linda22003
07-01-2008, 09:57 AM
PP is practically across the street from the Campus health center at Michigan State.
Although it does have the advantage of being near a tattoo parlor, potentially driving more clients.


The tattoo parlor attracts Michigan State clients or Planned Parenthood clients? I guess college students are attracted to tattoos, but I don't see what the connection with Planned Parenthood would be.

biccat
07-01-2008, 10:01 AM
The tattoo parlor attracts Michigan State clients or Planned Parenthood clients? I guess college students are attracted to tattoos, but I don't see what the connection with Planned Parenthood would be.
Ever see Wedding Crashers?

"Tattoo on the lower back? Might as well be a bullseye."

linda22003
07-01-2008, 10:05 AM
No, I haven't seen it. It didn't look very interesting. I agree that back tattoos are disgusting and low class - I think ALL tattoos are disgusting and low class - but I still don't know if it's a college connection or Planned Parenthood connection you're making.

It also doesn't matter, now that I think about it for a moment.

LogansPapa
07-01-2008, 10:07 AM
Bottom Line (no pun intended), a woman's reproductive business is, well - just that: Her business.

biccat
07-01-2008, 10:09 AM
Bottom Line (no pun intended), a woman's reproductive business is, well - just that: Her business.
I agree completely.

...however once she reproduces, the state should be responsible for defending the life of the child against a murderous mother.

PS: Linda, I was suggesting that low-class women who get tattoos tend to be the same type who frequent the baby-killing factory.

LogansPapa
07-01-2008, 10:21 AM
I agree completely.

...however once she reproduces, the state should be responsible for defending the life of the child against a murderous mother.

If you feel that strongly about abortion and the disbanding of a woman’s right to control her bodily functions - then legislate these places out of existence. If you’re not hammering your local, state and federal representatives to do so - you being hypocritical. Personally, as an investor, I’ll take great pleasure into funding vacation clinics in the Carribian and Mexico to facilitate women of means right to chose - after you sucessfully closed our domestic options down.

Remember, in the end, the American taxpayer(via welfare) will pick up the tab for the mothers that don’t have the where withal to take those trips South.

linda22003
07-01-2008, 10:22 AM
PS: Linda, I was suggesting that low-class women who get tattoos tend to be the same type who frequent the baby-killing factory.

I'd bet they get more business from drunk college students! ;)

biccat
07-01-2008, 10:25 AM
I'd bet they get more business from drunk college students! ;)
Which one?


If you feel that strongly about abortion and the disbanding of a woman’s right to control her bodily functions - then legislate these places out of existence
Oh, if only it were possible. Except left wing judges, like those your candidate of choice, the Messiah Obama, wants to appoint to the Supreme Court, have made legislation in the realm of abortion illegal. Abortion is not just a choice for a woman, it is a Constitutional Right (although for the life of me I can't find it in the Constitution anywhere). And according to some liberals, and Planned Parenthood, it's practically a duty to get at least one.

linda22003
07-01-2008, 10:27 AM
The tattoo parlor, of course. As to the legality of abortion, I really think that is a Done Deal, no matter who's elected.

noonwitch
07-01-2008, 12:02 PM
PP is practically across the street from the Campus health center at Michigan State.

Although it does have the advantage of being near a tattoo parlor, potentially driving more clients.

It's also located almost next door to the comic book shop, but I think that is more coincidence than anything.


Yeah, I'd imagine the comic book store is not exactly providing a lot of business for PP. I don't think most patrons of comic book stores have much sex, and if they do, they aren't the gender that gets pregnant.

YupItsMe
07-01-2008, 12:43 PM
If you feel that strongly about abortion and the disbanding of a woman’s right to control her bodily functions - then legislate these places out of existence. If you’re not hammering your local, state and federal representatives to do so - you being hypocritical. Personally, as an investor, I’ll take great pleasure into funding vacation clinics in the Carribian and Mexico to facilitate women of means right to chose - after you sucessfully closed our domestic options down.

Remember, in the end, the American taxpayer(via welfare) will pick up the tab for the mothers that don’t have the where withal to take those trips South.


Maybe we could just start exterminating everybody on public assistance. Why just stop at babies. Those Down's Syndrome kids have always pissed me off. :mad::rolleyes:

linda22003
07-01-2008, 12:50 PM
Those Down's Syndrome kids have always pissed me off. :mad::rolleyes:

Then you're in luck. There are fewer of them these days, since antenatal testing has been available.

biccat
07-01-2008, 12:52 PM
disregard that...

YupItsMe
07-01-2008, 01:32 PM
Then you're in luck. There are fewer of them these days, since antenatal testing has been available.


Cool, then we're on our way to creating a superior race. I say blond hair, blue eyes even though I'm a small framed dark haired Austian with a stupid looking moustache. Oh, and right handed only. Always hated those lefties. Can't even use a normal pair of scissors.

linda22003
07-01-2008, 01:35 PM
Cool, then we're on our way to creating a superior race. I say blond hair, blue eyes even though I'm a small framed dark haired Austian with a stupid looking moustache.

Where are "Austians" from? The capital of Texas?

Eyelids
07-01-2008, 01:54 PM
Cool, then we're on our way to creating a superior race. I say blond hair, blue eyes even though I'm a small framed dark haired Austian with a stupid looking moustache. Oh, and right handed only. Always hated those lefties. Can't even use a normal pair of scissors.

I'd comment but I know one of you winners are just going to say something dumb about me being retarded or something.

megimoo
07-01-2008, 02:05 PM
Sometimes you really behave like an ass.:rolleyes:That's because ....!

CLibertarian
07-01-2008, 02:23 PM
I agree completely.

...however once she reproduces, the state should be responsible for defending the life of the child against a murderous mother.

PS: Linda, I was suggesting that low-class women who get tattoos tend to be the same type who frequent the baby-killing factory.

Only of she does drugs while pregnant. Otherwise, it's OK with the state if she has it killed via PP. All that the state cares about is which avenue that brings in revenue.

The state is more interested in protecting children from evil Conservative homeschooling parents. Killing them via PP prior to birth is completely acceptable to them.

YupItsMe
07-01-2008, 02:28 PM
Where are "Austians" from? The capital of Texas?

How appropriate a spelling Nazi.

YupItsMe
07-01-2008, 02:30 PM
I'd comment but I know one of you winners are just going to say something dumb about me being retarded or something.


Depends on your comment. Actually agreed with you on something the other day. If it just another one of your poor me, I'm black, but the Messiah Obama is coming to save me, don't bother.

linda22003
07-01-2008, 02:33 PM
I really had to read it a few times to figure out what you were saying. It sort of diluted the "clever" point you were trying to make.

biccat
07-01-2008, 02:47 PM
I'd comment but I know one of you winners are just going to say something dumb about me being retarded or something.
Yes, but then you'd misconstrue it into thinking we are in favor of racially based eugenics. (http://www.dianedew.com/sanger.htm)

YupItsMe
07-01-2008, 03:04 PM
I really had to read it a few times to figure out what you were saying. It sort of diluted the "clever" point you were trying to make.


Fair enough. Maybe since I knew to whom I was referring, one missing letter didn't mean much. Advantage of being the writer vs. the reader.

linda22003
07-01-2008, 03:08 PM
Fair enough. Maybe since I knew to whom I was referring, one missing letter didn't mean much. Advantage of being the writer vs. the reader.

You do raise an interesting point, though. My personal opinion is that abortion will not be outlawed wholesale in this country, and will never be outlawed for pregnancies with medical problems. It might be brave and noble for a family to have a child with handicaps, but I think the mindset has really changed on whether you can force people to take that on.

noonwitch
07-01-2008, 04:18 PM
Yes, but then you'd misconstrue it into thinking we are in favor of racially based eugenics. (http://www.dianedew.com/sanger.htm)


My grandpa told me once that he thought abortion should only be illegal for white people. I love grandpa, but....

MrsSmith
07-01-2008, 07:58 PM
If you feel that strongly about abortion and the disbanding of a woman’s right to control her bodily functions - then legislate these places out of existence. If you’re not hammering your local, state and federal representatives to do so - you being hypocritical. Personally, as an investor, I’ll take great pleasure into funding vacation clinics in the Carribian and Mexico to facilitate women of means right to chose - after you sucessfully closed our domestic options down.

Remember, in the end, the American taxpayer(via welfare) will pick up the tab for the mothers that don’t have the where withal to take those trips South.

No one here has a problem with women controlling their bodily functions. She can do anything she wants with her own body...until her "choice" involves the body of a second human being. Once there are more than one, it's only fair to ask the second one what his/her choice would be. Of course, that'll take a few years, but we have all the time in the world.

Oh, and as a mother of 5 who would never have had the money to "take a trip South," none of my children were raised on tax money. You're wrong twice.(in this post...I'm sure there are many others...)

MrsSmith
07-01-2008, 08:00 PM
Then you're in luck. There are fewer of them these days, since antenatal testing has been available.

No, there are no fewer of them. There are merely a lot more dying at a much younger age since antenatal testing has been available...along with quite a few perfectly normal babies who failed their test for some other reason.

MrsSmith
07-01-2008, 09:10 PM
I hear they eat them afterwards.

Straight from the pits of hell they are, just like all liberals!!

That's silly! Why would they eat them when they can sell them?



http://www.ppatp.org/FetalTissue.htm

A woman's choice to donate to medical research tissue that she has aborted begins and ends with her. Federal and state laws have been specifically written to ensure that her choice to donate tissue from her abortion to medical research is made in an informed and ethical manner. First, she is legally required to give her written consent to have an abortion. Only after she has consented to have an abortion can she provide the necessary written consent to donate the fetal tissue. She cannot be paid for the donation. She cannot know or designate the recipient (USCA, 1988; USCA, 1993).

Knowing she can donate her aborted fetus to potentially lifesaving medical research may help a woman turn an unintended pregnancy about which she may feel a sense of loss into a social good. The choice to donate fetal tissue often gives solace to women who may need to end their pregnancies (Anderson et al., 1994; Martin, 1993).



http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewPrint.asp?Page=\Culture\archive\CUL19991018a.h tml


Abortion providers are making money on the sale of fetal tissue by charging "site fees" to wholesalers who harvest the material and market it to researchers, thus circumventing federal laws, a Texas-based pro-life group alleges.

Life Dynamics of Denton, Texas, recently released a 64-page document that contains numerous invoices and price guides for the remains of aborted babies which they claim are being shipped to researchers working for universities, pharmaceutical companies and government agencies.

While it is against federal law to sell human tissue and body parts, clinics "donate" the material through wholesalers, who are charged "site fees" for the "processing" of intact organs, Life Dynamics said.

Calls by CNSNews.com to Planned Parenthood headquarters in News York, whose abortion clinics Life Dynamics said were the major financial benefactors in the sale of fetal tissue, were not returned.


http://www.cogforlife.org/fetalresearch.htm


Fetal Tissue Research Raises Disturbing Questions
By Paul Ranalli

(Dr. Paul Ranalli is a pro-life neurologist in the Faculty of Medicine at the University of Toronto.)

>>>
On the subject of the biomedical use of human fetal tissue, this is an important question to ponder. For alongside the promise of fetal-tissue research there are uncomfortable realities. As recent ghoulish news reports have revealed, medical researchers at universities in British Columbia, Nebraska, Colorado and likely other institutions do not simply order “fetal tissue” from providers—they order leg bones, livers, spleens, whole eyes and other organs.

And despite admonishment from the Canadian Royal Commission on New Reproductive Technologies and a U.S. congressional prohibition against a money-making marketplace for fetal tissue, there are clear indications that just such a marketplace has developed; human fetal parts are being sold for a profit. “In a civilized society there are things that should not be for sale,” Andrew Kimbrell, author of The Human Body Shop, said recently. “But right now we are in an ethical free fall.”

The most direct clinical application of human fetal tissue has been the decade-long experience in transplanting fetal brain tissue into the brains of patients with Parkinson’s disease. Herein lies a tale of desperate hope, moral anguish, initial scientific and public enthusiasm and ultimate though still strongly denied—failure. Parkinson’s disease is a progressive, degenerative brain disorder characterized chiefly by a loss of motor control, involuntary tremor, muscle rigidity, slowness of movement and problems with balance and walking. The exact cause of Parkinson’s disease is unknown, but we do know it is associated with a decline in the production of the brain chemical dopamine. In the early to moderate stages of the disease, neurologists have a fair degree of success treating patients with a variety of medications that either boost dopamine synthesis, or directly stimulate dopamine receptors in key deep brain structures. After a number of years, however, the effectiveness of these drugs wears off, or is accompanied by troubling side effects.

A search for novel therapies has led to a variety of experimental brain surgery procedures. The theory behind fetal transplantation is that dopamine-producing cells extracted from the brains of several aborted fetuses can be injected deep into critical brain regions of the recipient Parkinson’s disease patient, hopefully to take root and begin to produce the needed dopamine. However, a series of limited, uncontrolled case reports provided little evidence of real success, despite tremendous hype that continued to capture the public imagination.

linda22003
07-02-2008, 07:51 AM
My grandpa told me once that he thought abortion should only be illegal for white people. I love grandpa, but....

....but he's no Constitutional law expert. Is that how you were going to end the sentence? :)

Junebug68
07-02-2008, 10:42 AM
I hear they eat them afterwards.

Straight from the pits of hell they are, just like all liberals!!

Charming, just charming. Your parents must be so proud :rolleyes:

LogansPapa
07-02-2008, 10:52 AM
Charming, just charming. Your parents must be so proud :rolleyes:

They may not be - but I certain am. Gutty and funny. A winning combination. ;)

wilbur
07-02-2008, 11:21 AM
That's silly! Why would they eat them when they can sell them?

Damn them! Does their wretchedness have no limit? They actually use the aborted fetuses to further research that could save lives?! How horrible.

Obviously, even though abortion is perfectly legal, the moral thing to do is just throw them out, lest some innocent soul who is almost returned to the Lord, be tainted with the aborted cells from the Prince of Lies.

linda22003
07-02-2008, 11:48 AM
Well, the tone of this conversation is going down quickly. Those who are against abortion don't help things by demonizing those who have them, and those who advocate for abortion don't help things by making fun of the others. What's the answer that can please both sides? Is any compromise possible on this issue?

LogansPapa
07-02-2008, 12:00 PM
What about those who believe the subject is the woman’s business - only?:confused:

linda22003
07-02-2008, 12:10 PM
What about those who believe the subject is the woman’s business - only?:confused:

Well, women have always behaved that way, no matter what the law was at any given time.

YupItsMe
07-02-2008, 12:14 PM
What about those who believe the subject is the woman’s business - only?:confused:

We used to called them pussy-whipped when I was younger

biccat
07-02-2008, 12:40 PM
What about those who believe the subject is the woman’s business - only?:confused:
And what about those who believe it is the child's business only? :confused:

linda22003
07-02-2008, 12:49 PM
And what about those who believe it is the child's business only? :confused:

They've been out of luck since about 1967.

wilbur
07-02-2008, 02:13 PM
Well, the tone of this conversation is going down quickly. Those who are against abortion don't help things by demonizing those who have them, and those who advocate for abortion don't help things by making fun of the others. What's the answer that can please both sides? Is any compromise possible on this issue?

Yea, but here's the kicker. If some people here didn't know me, they'd be nodding in agreement with my posts.

biccat
07-02-2008, 02:22 PM
Yea, but here's the kicker. If some people here didn't know me, they'd be nodding in agreement with my posts.

So if we didn't already know you are an anti-Christian bigot, it would be evident from your posts?

No shit sherlock.

wilbur
07-02-2008, 02:35 PM
So if we didn't already know you are an anti-Christian bigot, it would be evident from your posts?

No shit sherlock.

Bigoted towards insanity and delusion maybe, not Christians in general... the useless little circle-jerk threads (like this one) really bring out the crazies. Simply invitations for mischief...

biccat
07-02-2008, 02:37 PM
Bigoted towards insanity and delusion maybe, not Christians in general... the useless little circle-jerk threads (like this one) really bring out the crazies. Simply invitations for mischief...
Believing that a child in the womb, prior to birth, is a human with the right to live is "insanity and delusion?"

I'm glad that I don't live in your world.

YupItsMe
07-02-2008, 02:44 PM
Believing that a child in the womb, prior to birth, is a human with the right to live is "insanity and delusion?"

I'm glad that I don't live in your world.

Count your blessings. most libs are bitter unhappy people. Pretty much of a stereotype, I know, but i've seen it to be true and some studies have shown it. Wilbur gets most of his joy in life from stirring shit.

LogansPapa
07-02-2008, 03:11 PM
Wilbur gets most of his joy in life from stirring shit.

Gee Wilbur - that coin rolled around for a long time! :D

wilbur
07-02-2008, 04:55 PM
Count your blessings. most libs are bitter unhappy people. Pretty much of a stereotype, I know, but i've seen it to be true and some studies have shown it. Wilbur gets most of his joy in life from stirring shit.

Not a liberal. Just a conservative who wants conservatives to be rational people again.

Junebug68
07-02-2008, 05:56 PM
Not a liberal. Just a conservative who wants conservatives to be rational people again.

And you think you are in a position to teach people to be rational?? Ha!

MrsSmith
07-02-2008, 10:49 PM
Damn them! Does their wretchedness have no limit? They actually use the aborted fetuses to further research that could save lives?! How horrible.

Obviously, even though abortion is perfectly legal, the moral thing to do is just throw them out, lest some innocent soul who is almost returned to the Lord, be tainted with the aborted cells from the Prince of Lies.


I seem to recall some history lessons about a group of humans that thought it was a good idea to segregate another specific group of humans, use them for medical research, and murder them at will. Our society is equivalent...we've chosen a group of humans that can be murdered and used for medical research at will. Hurray for us. We're so progressive.

Oh, and it was perfectly legal to do what the first group did, too. They even had the excuse of being ordered to do it, instead of doing it to avoid expense or inconvenience or whatever.

MrsSmith
07-02-2008, 10:49 PM
Not a liberal. Just a conservative who wants conservatives to be rational people again.
Rational people don't applaud the murder of innocent humans. :rolleyes: