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megimoo
03-29-2009, 02:24 PM
Turkey's crackdown on the practice of honor killing has resulted in unintended consequences – instead of being murdered by a close male relative for bringing dishonor to their families, Muslim women are being pressured to commit suicide.

And the numbers of "honor suicides" are soaring, reported the UK's Independent.

Despite a 2005 change in the nation's penal code requiring a mandatory life sentence for honor killers, the number of women killed by male relatives is at a record level – more than 200 a year, half of all murders committed in Turkey. But it is that change in the law that has given rise to the growing phenomenon of women taking their own lives. Prior to 2005, killers were able to receive reduced sentences by claiming provocation.

Controversial DVD reveals fundamentalist Islamic mob justice in all its ugliness. 'The Stoning of Soraya M' refuses to let such horror go unremembered.

Elif, 18, from Batman in southeast Turkey, was told by her father she must kill herself so he would not be sent to prison for murdering her after she refused an offer of an arranged marriage with an older man.

"I loved my father so much, I was ready to commit suicide for him even though I hadn't done anything wrong," she said. "But I just couldn't go through with it. I love life too much."

The young woman was forced to flee and go into hiding. Her uncles and other relatives have been hunting her for the past eight months, even conducting an armed raid of a women's shelter where she had been.

"I managed to escape," said Elif. "When I was at school, a few girls I knew were killed by their families in the name of honor – one of them for simply receiving a text message from a boy."

In her hometown of Batman – nicknamed "Suicide City" – 75 percent of all suicides are committed now by women.

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=93252

FlaGator
03-29-2009, 02:48 PM
I wonder how many are commiting suicide and how many are, to use DU's verbage, being suicided?

AlmostThere
03-29-2009, 07:25 PM
These women are being murdered by their families either way. Excuse me but any culture or religion that tells a young woman to commit suicide or kills her outright all in the name of honor is just bullshit. To think there's been a single young woman who has taken her own life to appease some medieval lunacy is total insanity. What kind of father could ask his daughter to do that?

PoliCon
03-29-2009, 07:30 PM
What kind of father could ask his daughter to do that? A muslim one. :rolleyes:

AlmostThere
03-29-2009, 08:23 PM
A muslim one. :rolleyes:

That's a pretty big brush, don't ya think?

PoliCon
03-29-2009, 08:28 PM
That's a pretty big brush, don't ya think?
How many are being asked to kill themselves by Christian fathers? Jewish fathers? Hindu fathers?

FlaGator
03-30-2009, 01:36 AM
How many are being asked to kill themselves by Christian fathers? Jewish fathers? Hindu fathers?

As we have dicussed in the past, this is cultural and not religious as any father from a culture that supports this behavior would ask this of their daughters, that includes Hindu, Buddhist and Christian fathers from parts of African and Western Asia. You do paint with a big brush when assigning blame strictly to the Muslims for this type of behavior.

AlmostThere
03-30-2009, 02:25 AM
How many are being asked to kill themselves by Christian fathers? Jewish fathers? Hindu fathers?

"A Muslim one" makes it sound as though any Muslim father would do as much. That is a broad brush. Killing your daughter in some honor killing or trying to get her to commit suicide is barbaric. Do you really think in America most Muslim fathers, or even half would do that? Even a third? My guess is a much smaller percentage than that. A Muslim one makes it sound like each and every one.

I mean, really, think about it. There must be at least a million Muslim fathers in America. Probably a lot more, but 1 million is an easy number to work with. If we knew that 1/4 would commit an honor killing, that's 250,000 murderers and at least as many victims we should be able to recognize because of their radical behavior. That is, we recognize before they commit the crime. As a society, are we leaving a quarter million women in potentially deadly danger because of something as simple as wearing the wrong clothes. That wouldn't say much about us, now, would it?

PoliCon
03-30-2009, 09:02 AM
"A Muslim one" makes it sound as though any Muslim father would do as much. That is a broad brush. Killing your daughter in some honor killing or trying to get her to commit suicide is barbaric. Do you really think in America most Muslim fathers, or even half would do that? Even a third? My guess is a much smaller percentage than that. A Muslim one makes it sound like each and every one. We do have honour killings here in the US you know. :( Look if you want to read it as an attack on all muslims - be my guest - but I think I have made it abundantly clear where I stand on such issues.


I mean, really, think about it. There must be at least a million Muslim fathers in America. Probably a lot more, but 1 million is an easy number to work with. If we knew that 1/4 would commit an honor killing, that's 250,000 murderers and at least as many victims we should be able to recognize because of their radical behavior. That is, we recognize before they commit the crime. As a society, are we leaving a quarter million women in potentially deadly danger because of something as simple as wearing the wrong clothes. That wouldn't say much about us, now, would it?Are you talking about the same society which is hamstrung by political correctness?

PoliCon
03-30-2009, 09:05 AM
As we have dicussed in the past, this is cultural and not religious as any father from a culture that supports this behavior would ask this of their daughters, that includes Hindu, Buddhist and Christian fathers from parts of African and Western Asia. You do paint with a big brush when assigning blame strictly to the Muslims for this type of behavior.And as I have stated in the past - culture and religion and politics in islamic countries are one and the same with some very rare exceptions. Sorry - but you're going to have to prove a buddhist father would ask such of a daughter. If a Christian father would do it - it would only be because that family is immersed already in islamic culture. And as for the hindu - they wouldn't ask - they'd do it themselves.

FlaGator
03-30-2009, 09:30 AM
And as I have stated in the past - culture and religion and politics in islamic countries are one and the same with some very rare exceptions. Sorry - but you're going to have to prove a buddhist father would ask such of a daughter. If a Christian father would do it - it would only be because that family is immersed already in islamic culture. And as for the hindu - they wouldn't ask - they'd do it themselves.

Upper Caste Village in Northern India Proud of “honour Killing” of Couple (http://www.medindia.net/news/Upper-Caste-Village-in-Northern-India-Proud-of-honour-Killing-of-Couple-36797-1.htm)

British police probing `honour killings' of Asian women (http://www.hinduonnet.com/2003/03/11/stories/2003031103781200.htm)

Bodies of 2 men found in Rehovot apt.; 1 of men's wife also found dead (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=816401&contrassID=1&subContrassID=7)

I would also like to point out all the murders in America where the husband or wife kills their spouse because they suspect that the spouse cheated on them or in some way embarrassed the. Would you not classify those as honor killings? If not they what is the difference when someone from India set's his wife on fire because of a poor dowry or suspected affair? What about those who claim to be Christian who are in jail right now because a neighbor offended them and they killed the neighbor?

PoliCon
03-30-2009, 09:57 AM
Upper Caste Village in Northern India Proud of “honour Killing” of Couple (http://www.medindia.net/news/Upper-Caste-Village-in-Northern-India-Proud-of-honour-Killing-of-Couple-36797-1.htm)

British police probing `honour killings' of Asian women (http://www.hinduonnet.com/2003/03/11/stories/2003031103781200.htm)

Bodies of 2 men found in Rehovot apt.; 1 of men's wife also found dead (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=816401&contrassID=1&subContrassID=7)

I would also like to point out all the murders in America where the husband or wife kills their spouse because they suspect that the spouse cheated on them or in some way embarrassed the. Would you not classify those as honor killings? If not they what is the difference when someone from India set's his wife on fire because of a poor dowry or suspected affair? What about those who claim to be Christian who are in jail right now because a neighbor offended them and they killed the neighbor?Gator how does this rebut the statement you quoted?

linda22003
03-30-2009, 10:09 AM
[I would also like to point out all the murders in America where the husband or wife kills their spouse because they suspect that the spouse cheated on them or in some way embarrassed them. Would you not classify those as honor killings?

No. I would classify those as "I'm mad as hell at you, asshole, and we have guns in the house" killings.

Odysseus
03-30-2009, 10:28 AM
As we have dicussed in the past, this is cultural and not religious as any father from a culture that supports this behavior would ask this of their daughters, that includes Hindu, Buddhist and Christian fathers from parts of African and Western Asia. You do paint with a big brush when assigning blame strictly to the Muslims for this type of behavior.
Except for Sihks, it's almost entirely a Moslem phenomenon, and Moslems are the only group where the practice extends beyond south Asian ethnicity. We see this wherever Islam, especially Wahhabi Islam, takes root, even in the US.

Upper Caste Village in Northern India Proud of “honour Killing” of Couple (http://www.medindia.net/news/Upper-Caste-Village-in-Northern-India-Proud-of-honour-Killing-of-Couple-36797-1.htm)

British police probing `honour killings' of Asian women (http://www.hinduonnet.com/2003/03/11/stories/2003031103781200.htm)

Bodies of 2 men found in Rehovot apt.; 1 of men's wife also found dead (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=816401&contrassID=1&subContrassID=7)

I would also like to point out all the murders in America where the husband or wife kills their spouse because they suspect that the spouse cheated on them or in some way embarrassed the. Would you not classify those as honor killings? If not they what is the difference when someone from India set's his wife on fire because of a poor dowry or suspected affair? What about those who claim to be Christian who are in jail right now because a neighbor offended them and they killed the neighbor?
The Islamists attempt to lump honor killings under domestic violence in order to mask the unique nature of the culture that encourages them, but there are significant differences.

First, in most domestic violence, the rest of the family does not participate. It is extremely rare for a husband to kill his wife with the aid of other family members, except when it is an honor killing. In fact, honor killings often involve many other family members, including female relatives, who actively aid and abet the act.
This leads to the second major difference, which is that in a non-honor-related domestic violence case, the perpetrator is a pariah. We, as a culture and a nation, detest men who abuse women and children and punish them. The families and communities of abusers invariably side with the victim, not the perpetrator, but in honor killings, the family and larger community sides with the killer.
Third, most conventional domestic violence is done in the heat of the moment and is rarely planned, and even if it is premeditated, the instigation involves more than simply not following the orders of a male relative. A spousal murder usually involves and affair or money, while honor killings are motivated by shame, and they are premeditated, often involving months of planning and coordination between family members, community members and, in some countries, the authorities.
Finally, honor killings aren't just husband/wife violence. In almost no other context of domestic violence do you see brothers, uncles and cousins killing adult relatives, or parents killing children.

Don't be confused by the broad brushstrokes. This is a unique issue within Islam, where it transcends the Arab and south Asian cultures. Turks, for example, are not Arabs, nor are Moros in the Philippines. A practice that is prevalent among Moslems from the United States to Thailand is a practice that is sanctioned by the religious authorities in Islam and the culture that Islam fosters.

FlaGator
03-30-2009, 10:58 AM
Except for Sihks, it's almost entirely a Moslem phenomenon, and Moslems are the only group where the practice extends beyond south Asian ethnicity. We see this wherever Islam, especially Wahhabi Islam, takes root, even in the US.

The Islamists attempt to lump honor killings under domestic violence in order to mask the unique nature of the culture that encourages them, but there are significant differences.

First, in most domestic violence, the rest of the family does not participate. It is extremely rare for a husband to kill his wife with the aid of other family members, except when it is an honor killing. In fact, honor killings often involve many other family members, including female relatives, who actively aid and abet the act.
This leads to the second major difference, which is that in a non-honor-related domestic violence case, the perpetrator is a pariah. We, as a culture and a nation, detest men who abuse women and children and punish them. The families and communities of abusers invariably side with the victim, not the perpetrator, but in honor killings, the family and larger community sides with the killer.
Third, most conventional domestic violence is done in the heat of the moment and is rarely planned, and even if it is premeditated, the instigation involves more than simply not following the orders of a male relative. A spousal murder usually involves and affair or money, while honor killings are motivated by shame, and they are premeditated, often involving months of planning and coordination between family members, community members and, in some countries, the authorities.
Finally, honor killings aren't just husband/wife violence. In almost no other context of domestic violence do you see brothers, uncles and cousins killing adult relatives, or parents killing children.

Don't be confused by the broad brushstrokes. This is a unique issue within Islam, where it transcends the Arab and south Asian cultures. Turks, for example, are not Arabs, nor are Moros in the Philippines. A practice that is prevalent among Moslems from the United States to Thailand is a practice that is sanctioned by the religious authorities in Islam and the culture that Islam fosters.

Then how do you account for the large number of hindu honor killings over dowries or that honor killings occur in areas with mixed religious affiliations? Also, honor killings have historically happened long before the invention of Islam.

It seems the difinition of honor killings has been has been set up to exclude must other groups other than muslims. I personally use a broader difinition of honor killings.

linda22003
03-30-2009, 11:01 AM
From what I have read about them, they are more about tribal interests than they are about a religious mandate.

PoliCon
03-30-2009, 11:39 AM
From what I have read about them, they are more about tribal interests than they are about a religious mandate.

linda - those are one and the same in islam.

PoliCon
03-30-2009, 11:40 AM
Then how do you account for the large number of hindu honor killings over dowries or that honor killings occur in areas with mixed religious affiliations? Also, honor killings have historically happened long before the invention of Islam.

It seems the difinition of honor killings has been has been set up to exclude must other groups other than muslims. I personally use a broader difinition of honor killings.

did you even read his post? lol

FlaGator
03-30-2009, 11:40 AM
From what I have read about them, they are more about tribal interests than they are about a religious mandate.

Exactly. I from everything that I have read, the are cultural and in the case of Islam, they predate the establishment of the Muslim belief system. We happen to associate honor killings with Islamic beliefs because the areas where Islam was originally established practiced honor killings and the concept was incorporated in to the acceptable practices of the religion. The area's that are now predominately Muslim, the Middle East and the Near East were originally Verdic (Hindu) and honor killings are a custom of that philosophy/religion as will and predates Islam by a thousand years or more.

PoliCon
03-30-2009, 11:41 AM
Exactly. I from everything that I have read, the are cultural and in the case of Islam, they predate the establishment of the Muslim belief system. We happen to associate honor killings with Islamic beliefs because the areas where Islam was originally established practiced honor killings and the concept was incorporated in to the acceptable practices of the religion. The area's that are now predominately Muslim, the Middle East and the Near East were originally Verdic (Hindu) and honor killings are a custom of that philosophy/religion as will and predates Islam by a thousand years or more.

Honour kills were a part of pre-islamic arabian beliefs - the self same be4lief set which because islamic beliefs.

FlaGator
03-30-2009, 11:46 AM
did you even read his post? lol

Yes I did and your sarcasm is not appreciated. I still think that the definition for honor killings has been intentionally redefined to exclude most everyone but muslims. It is a example of hate transforming culture and makes those who practice it not much different than the Mohammadans. You dispise the Muslims (I use you in a general way not you specifically) so you lay every negative practice at their feet, not much different than they do with Jews and Christians.

FlaGator
03-30-2009, 11:52 AM
Honour kills were a part of pre-islamic arabian beliefs - the self same be4lief set which because islamic beliefs.

Did you read my post? Pre-arabian beliefs where Verdic. I have recently read, thanks to someone from CU, where Mohammed's father and uncle where Verdic Priests. The Verdic belief system is one of the forms of Hinduism.

http://members.fortunecity.com/sitaram/page123.htm

PoliCon
03-30-2009, 11:56 AM
Yes I did and your sarcasm is not appreciated. I still think that the definition for honor killings has been intentionally redefined to exclude most everyone but muslims. It is a example of hate transforming culture and makes those who practice it not much different than the Mohammadans. You dispise the Muslims (I use you in a general way not you specifically) so you lay every negative practice at their feet, not much different than they do with Jews and Christians.

I have no problem with muslims. My issues are with ISLAM. NOR do I think anyone is trying to lay everything negative at their feet - but rather people are pointing out what is already at their feet.

NOW as for reading what Odysseus posted - did you catch this part?
and Moslems are the only group where the practice extends beyond south Asian ethnicity.

FlaGator
03-30-2009, 12:00 PM
I have no problem with muslims. My issues are with ISLAM. NOR do I think anyone is trying to lay everything negative at their feet - but rather people are pointing out what is already at their feet.

NOW as for reading what Odysseus posted - did you catch this part?

and Moslems are the only group where the practice extends beyond south Asian ethnicity.


Thus my comment that the definition of Honor Killings is being redefined to exclude non-Muslims.

PoliCon
03-30-2009, 12:18 PM
Thus my comment that the definition of Honor Killings is being redefined to exclude non-Muslims.

that doesn't fit though. He and I both have allowed for it to happen in other south asian cultures. so . . . .

FlaGator
03-30-2009, 12:27 PM
that doesn't fit though. He and I both have allowed for it to happen in other south asian cultures. so . . . .

All I am saying is that this is not necessarily a Islamic thing. Some Hindu's practice this from of cultural cleansing and it has a longer historic tradition with them than with Islam. It seems that originally you did try to tie this strictly to Islamic practice and when I pointed out that it was cultural you stated that was because the cultures in question were Islamic. That doesn't seem to me as having allowed for it to happen in other South Asian cultures.

PoliCon
03-30-2009, 12:34 PM
All I am saying is that this is not necessarily a Islamic thing. Some Hindu's practice this from of cultural cleansing and it has a longer historic tradition with them than with Islam. It seems that originally you did try to tie this strictly to Islamic practice and when I pointed out that it was cultural you stated that was because the cultures in question were Islamic. That doesn't seem to me as having allowed for it to happen in other South Asian cultures.

I have already allowed on this site for examples of hindu honour killings. But lets stick to the topic of the thread. Can you point to any examples outside of islam where women are being pressured by their families to kill themselves for the honor of the family? The only other cultures outside of Islam where this MIGHT be a problem would be the Japanese or Korean cultures if the families are particularly old school and suicide is considered honourable.

Odysseus
03-30-2009, 01:02 PM
Then how do you account for the large number of hindu honor killings over dowries or that honor killings occur in areas with mixed religious affiliations? Also, honor killings have historically happened long before the invention of Islam.

It seems the difinition of honor killings has been has been set up to exclude must other groups other than muslims. I personally use a broader difinition of honor killings.
That you do. But honor killings have a specific definition, which is the murder to prevent or avenge the shame of a clan or family by the conduct, often sexual, of a family member, almost always female (although there are cases in which Sharia courts have authorized the rape of a female from another family in order to avenge dishonor caused by a male relative of that female). Honor killing predate Islam among the tribal groups that inhabited the region of the Umayyad and Abassid Caliphates, but a major part of Islam is tied to Arab culture and society, honor killing has become part of Islamic tradition. The three codes by which Moslems conduct themselves are the Koran, which is the explicit revelation of Mohammed, the Hadith, which are stories from the life of Mohammed and his immediate followers, and the Sunnah, which are the practices and traditions of the Islamic people. The Koran does not explicitly state that women may be murdered for disobedience, but it does explicitly authorize capital punishment for adultery and fornication, and the Hadiths provide numerous examples of Mohammed ordering the execution of adulterers and fornicators. But, the Sunnah is where things become dicey, because that is where the tribal customs of Arabs become the tradition and practice of Islam, but even this understates the connection between Islam and honor killings, because if honor killing were solely cultural, then non-Moslem Arabs would also do it, but there is no documentation of Arab Christians, B'Hais or others indulging in it.

As to the other question, which refers to dowry murders, that is indeed a cultural issue among Hindus, but while family honor is one consideration, it is primarily a financially motivated crime. Also, the honor killings that occur in areas of mixed religious affiliations do not occur among different religions in those areas. Texas is not an Islamic state, but a Moslem murdered his two daughters near Dallas. This doesn't make honor killings endemic to Texas. As I pointed out above, even in the Moslem world, one does not find non-Moslem Arabs committing honor killings. It is a uniquely Moslem phenomenon.

Thus my comment that the definition of Honor Killings is being redefined to exclude non-Muslims.
No, it's the other way around. The definition of honor killings is dilluted in order to include other forms of domestic violence in order to create the impression that it is a unique practice among Moslems.

FlaGator
03-30-2009, 01:58 PM
I have already allowed on this site for examples of hindu honour killings. But lets stick to the topic of the thread. Can you point to any examples outside of islam where women are being pressured by their families to kill themselves for the honor of the family? The only other cultures outside of Islam where this MIGHT be a problem would be the Japanese or Korean cultures if the families are particularly old school and suicide is considered honourable.

I can not, but the reason I can not is that Turkey is the only country that is seriously cracking down on honor killings enough for families to ask this of their daughters. If Inda was cracking down in this manner, I suspose there would be families there who would request their daughters to do this. However, since that is not the case and the government basically looks the other way, then they still will go on.

My point through this whole debate has been that it is not just Muslims who have honor killings. I stated that they were cultural in nature and in this cause the culture calling for this action was mostly Muslim.

FlaGator
03-30-2009, 02:29 PM
That you do. But honor killings have a specific definition, which is the murder to prevent or avenge the shame of a clan or family by the conduct, often sexual, of a family member, almost always female (although there are cases in which Sharia courts have authorized the rape of a female from another family in order to avenge dishonor caused by a male relative of that female). Honor killing predate Islam among the tribal groups that inhabited the region of the Umayyad and Abassid Caliphates, but a major part of Islam is tied to Arab culture and society, honor killing has become part of Islamic tradition. The three codes by which Moslems conduct themselves are the Koran, which is the explicit revelation of Mohammed, the Hadith, which are stories from the life of Mohammed and his immediate followers, and the Sunnah, which are the practices and traditions of the Islamic people. The Koran does not explicitly state that women may be murdered for disobedience, but it does explicitly authorize capital punishment for adultery and fornication, and the Hadiths provide numerous examples of Mohammed ordering the execution of adulterers and fornicators. But, the Sunnah is where things become dicey, because that is where the tribal customs of Arabs become the tradition and practice of Islam, but even this understates the connection between Islam and honor killings, because if honor killing were solely cultural, then non-Moslem Arabs would also do it, but there is no documentation of Arab Christians, B'Hais or others indulging in it.



I understand what you posted and I agree with much of it, but it is not just Muslims who practice honor killings. Setting the issue of inadequate dowries aside there are plenty of events like this:


Nearly nine years after a young Sikh woman mysteriously disappeared while on a visit to India, her husband and mother-in-law were on Wednesday jailed for life for arranging her murder after it emerged that she was having an affair and wanted a divorce.

The body of the victim, Surjit Athwal (27), a customs officer at Heathrow airport, was never found and the mystery of her disappearance might have remained had her mother-in-law Bachan Athwal not happened to boast to her family that she got her brother to strangle Surjit and throw her body into a river.

From http://www.hindu.com/2007/09/20/stories/2007092055681600.htm

In the above case the honor killing was performed by a Sikh family. The following is a link to an op-ed piece from The Telegraph of Calcutta noting that honor killings are still a problem in India.

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1041010/asp/opinion/story_3848937.asp

In northern India honor killings are becoming epidemic among not only the Muslims but also the Hindus. In India strict adherence to that caste system is to blame for most of the honor killings. Marriage outside of the caste can and does earn both male and females death at the hands of offended relatives.

There are less honor killings out side of the Muslim mindset, but I do believe that the concept of honor killings was imported from India into the Middle East by Verdic Hinduism that was the majority religion in the Arab states long before Islam arose.

I am sorry to drag out this discussion like this, but I have learned a lot about the subject from you gentlement and it has forced me to do a bit of research on my own. I was hoping to get my new blog software configured and working today but this conversation has been much more enlightening.

Odysseus
03-30-2009, 03:18 PM
I understand what you posted and I agree with much of it, but it is not just Muslims who practice honor killings. Setting the issue of inadequate dowries aside there are plenty of events like this:


In the above case the honor killing was performed by a Sikh family. The following is a link to an op-ed piece from The Telegraph of Calcutta noting that honor killings are still a problem in India.


In northern India honor killings are becoming epidemic among not only the Muslims but also the Hindus. In India strict adherence to that caste system is to blame for most of the honor killings. Marriage outside of the caste can and does earn both male and females death at the hands of offended relatives.
If you read back, you'll note that I mentioned the Sikhs as the other major source of honor killings, but it is far less prevalent among Sikhs and Hindus than it is among Moslems.

There are less honor killings out side of the Muslim mindset, but I do believe that the concept of honor killings was imported from India into the Middle East by Verdic Hinduism that was the majority religion in the Arab states long before Islam arose.

Except that hinduism wasn't the majority religion in the Arab states. The former Roman provinces, which encompassed North Africa and western Asia, were Christian, Persia was Zoroastrian and the Arab states of the Middle East that were not Christian were a mix of pagan faiths, including the Greek pantheon that had been spread by Alexander. Honor killings are a tribal function, in which polygamous societies see women as a trade good, and female value is defined by chastity. We see this in the early Biblical stories of the tribes of Israel. However, as cultures move away from tribal norms, honor, as understood to be a function of clan power and female chastity, is replaced by a more individualized honor code, in which personal conduct is more critical than tribal or famililial conduct, just as the flip side of tribal honor, shame, the public humiliation caused by the loss of honor, is replaced by guilt, an internalized, individual sense of wrongdoing. So long as Islam remains a tribal faith and culture, it will turn a blind eye to honor killings, which will continue to be a major factor in the relations between men and women in that culture.