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Rebel Yell
04-06-2009, 12:04 PM
If the founding fathers knew what we would do with the nation, do you think they still would have revolted?


This is not an Obama attack, this is politics as a whole attack. Why would someone want to fight for something if they knew it would get fucked up anyway? We revolted and won our freedom from England only to turn around just over two hundred years later and emulate them? Why even bother fighting them, why lose so many lives if the end result would be to come full circle? Now we are overtaxed by our own government instead of another, is that really any better?


I'm not saying the founding fathers did the wrong thing. We are still the greatest nation on the planet, although not as great as we once were or should be. Just an interesting question to me.

linda22003
04-06-2009, 12:24 PM
"Well, posterity, you will never know what it cost us to preserve your freedom. I only hope that you will make a good use of it. If you do not, I shall repent in heaven that I ever took half the pains to preserve it."
~John Adams~

There's your answer.

Rebel Yell
04-06-2009, 12:39 PM
"Well, posterity, you will never know what it cost us to preserve your freedom. I only hope that you will make a good use of it. If you do not, I shall repent in heaven that I ever took half the pains to preserve it."
~John Adams~

There's your answer.

Good answer.:D

AlmostThere
04-06-2009, 10:33 PM
"Well, posterity, you will never know what it cost us to preserve your freedom. I only hope that you will make a good use of it. If you do not, I shall repent in heaven that I ever took half the pains to preserve it."
~John Adams~

There's your answer.

If that doesn't shame us, I don't know what will. :o

FlaGator
04-06-2009, 10:37 PM
If that doesn't shame us, I don't know what will. :o

I've been told that I have a pretty jaded view of mankind and this statement isn't going to help that impression but, I think that we have become a society that is incapable of shame.

gator
04-06-2009, 10:43 PM
The Founding Fathers did their job. We are just not doing our job very well.

ralph wiggum
04-06-2009, 11:07 PM
The Founding Fathers did their job. We are just not doing our job very well.

Hopefully we can elect a few that will do the right thing.

PoliCon
04-07-2009, 12:20 AM
If the founding fathers knew what we would do with the nation, do you think they still would have revolted? They didn't revolt - they rebelled - but to answer your question - yes. Because they would also know what we did along the way that helped to make the world a better place.

AlmostThere
04-07-2009, 12:36 AM
Hopefully we can elect a few that will do the right thing.

Seriously, what makes you think that by the time that can be done, it will make any difference what they do? You don't think that so much injury can be inflicted that the patient cannot survive no matter what life-saving means are used?

A representative of the IRS told lawyers for tax-exempt organizations that what they pay their executives is going to receive far more scrutiny in the same way banks and other corporations do who accept gov money. It seems they are taking gov money by being tax-exempt.

You are far more optimistic than I am.

PoliCon
04-07-2009, 12:38 AM
Seriously, what makes you think that by the time that can be done, it will make any difference what they do? You don't think that so much injury can be inflicted that the patient cannot survive no matter what life-saving means are used?

A representative of the IRS told lawyers for tax-exempt organizations that what they pay their executives is going to receive far more scrutiny in the same way banks and other corporations do who accept gov money. It seems they are taking gov money by being tax-exempt.

You are far more optimistic than I am.

do you have a link for that?

FlaGator
04-07-2009, 12:41 AM
Seriously, what makes you think that by the time that can be done, it will make any difference what they do? You don't think that so much injury can be inflicted that the patient cannot survive no matter what life-saving means are used?

A representative of the IRS told lawyers for tax-exempt organizations that what they pay their executives is going to receive far more scrutiny in the same way banks and other corporations do who accept gov money. It seems they are taking gov money by being tax-exempt.

You are far more optimistic than I am.

I hear you. I think that we've gone well beyond being able to trust politicans no matter how well intentioned they miight seem. The system has become an agent of corruptiion.

AlmostThere
04-07-2009, 12:49 AM
do you have a link for that?

Monday's Wall Street Journal.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123902531992992777.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

PoliCon
04-07-2009, 12:53 AM
Monday's Wall Street Journal.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123902531992992777.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

And Hazlnut wants to claim Barry isn't a socialist . . . .:rolleyes:

AlmostThere
04-07-2009, 01:13 AM
And Hazlnut wants to claim Barry isn't a socialist . . . .:rolleyes:

If a Republican President tried what Obama has, it would be a race between Republicans and Democrats to see who got his head on a pike first. I despise the Democrats for what they are doing to our country. I think I despise the Republicans more for not lifting a finger to stop it. One destroying our way of life and the other passively watching it happen, both for political gain. The bastards.

gator
04-07-2009, 08:10 AM
Hopefully we can elect a few that will do the right thing.

I think we are past the point where we can elect people that will straighten out this country. Congress has become an American House of Lords. There is too much money and power to be had by a politician to sell his/her representation.

I don't think the Founding Fathers ever envisioned a government that collects over a third of the GNP for the cost of government. I don't think they ever saw it coming and understood the propensity for greed and corruption and the fact that politicians will sell out their country.

I think the FFs were always under the impression that most elected representatives would be working for the common good of the country instead of selfish interest. They knew it wouldn’t always be the case and that is why we have the Second Amendment to make corrections when necessary. I guess they never thought the American people would get to the point where they wouldn’t care anymore.

I think the only way out of this mess is to have another revolution to restore the Constitution and the Republic. However, I don’t think we have the guts to do it. After all, we are much more interested in watching American Idol and going to the mall than restoring the Republic aren’t we?

linda22003
04-07-2009, 08:30 AM
After all, we are much more interested in watching American Idol and going to the mall than restoring the Republic aren’t we?

Right here on CU there's a thread which breathlessly asks which character is going to die on some network drama show, and it has as many posts as this one.

PoliCon
04-07-2009, 12:30 PM
Right here on CU there's a thread which breathlessly asks which character is going to die on some network drama show, and it has as many posts as this one.

you notice how many of those posts in the thread you mention are mine right? :cool:

PoliCon
04-07-2009, 12:32 PM
I am 1000% against a revolution. We do not have a populace - or a leadership here of the character of the the founding fathers. We have a populace of the character of Paris at the time of the french revolution. Only a fool wants to see that kind of carnage and militant selfishness prevail by way of revolution. :rolleyes:

linda22003
04-07-2009, 12:44 PM
No, PoliCon, I didn't notice how many posts were yours. Just that there seems to be more excitement over "House" and "24" than over issues like this.
I also disagree that our populace is like that of Paris at the time of the Revolution. It's more like Paris at the time of the collapse of Napoleon III's regime in 1870; the people had been living well for a good long time, and didn't adjust well to a sudden change downward.

PoliCon
04-07-2009, 12:50 PM
linda - what I mean is that should we have a revolution - the results would be akin to that of paris during the reign of terror.

noonwitch
04-07-2009, 01:53 PM
The founding fathers provided us with the means to choose our leaders, and by doing so, choosing the direction our nation will head. I think they would be proud of that, and if they didn't like where it was headed at this moment, would figure that either this is what most of the people wanted, and if they didn't like what they got, they could get rid of it in 2-4 years.

PoliCon
04-07-2009, 02:15 PM
The founding fathers provided us with the means to choose our leaders, and by doing so, choosing the direction our nation will head. I think they would be proud of that, and if they didn't like where it was headed at this moment, would figure that either this is what most of the people wanted, and if they didn't like what they got, they could get rid of it in 2-4 years.

They also provided us with a foundation of law - and a means to alter that law - ie the amendment process - as well as checks and balances - but leftist judges and leftists in general are not at all interested in abiding by that law and process and seek to change the law by judicial fiat. When a judge can raise the taxes levied on people - there is a serious problem.

MrsSmith
04-07-2009, 08:44 PM
From all I've read, the founding fathers became aware that they'd left a loophole open for the judiciary branch to become an oligarchy...and Jefferson hoped that we'd find a way to close that loophole. Of course, we didn't, so we now live in a country that is controlled by a powerful ruling elite that possesses the power to "interpret" anything they please into the Constitution.

I believe the founding fathers would have cheered the end of slavery, but would be aghast and ashamed of many of the "progressive" decisions made through the judicial branch...especially the many Pastors and Ministers that signed the Declaration, those who have been carefully eliminated from American History classes in the name of a "separation" they supposedly supported.

Fergus
04-07-2009, 11:47 PM
I've been told that I have a pretty jaded view of mankind and this statement isn't going to help that impression but, I think that we have become a society that is incapable of shame.

Speak for yourself, FlaGator...

Im sorry you feel shame and disgust for our country and society. I cannot speak for everyone, just myself, but I feel shame when I, as an individual does something wrong. When that happens I fully expect retribution.


Conversely, I feel great pride in America.




Someday maybe you will too.

Last Samurai
04-08-2009, 12:17 AM
I used to feel that pride also. The primary reason I decided long ago that no finer career path could I be called to than to "serve my Country".

But somewhere during those twenty years I was in uniform we went from a hard working, relatively ethical Nation of individuals to a Nation of self serving, self centered and greedy spoiled brats in adult clothing who ask not "what they can do for their Country....", but "What's in it for me?"

I stand aghast at what this once fine Nation is devolving into.

My only consolation is that I can say that "my time" of living in this Nation was the best of times for it, until recently, at any rate. I would have liked to have seen it passed on to subsequent generations with the strength and integrity intact. Alas! This is apparently not to be.

Our present greed is being added to the debt your children will have to pay off (or default on, more likely). A sad ending to the once richest Nation on the planet.

I say "your children" because, by mutual prenuptial agreement with my present wife of 27 years, we have no children to leave burdened with the "State of the Union" as it is. I "saw" this coming all those years ago, I just didn't realize it would get this bad before my time was done.

LS

FlaGator
04-08-2009, 05:04 AM
Speak for yourself, FlaGator...

Im sorry you feel shame and disgust for our country and society. I cannot speak for everyone, just myself, but I feel shame when I, as an individual does something wrong. When that happens I fully expect retribution.


Conversely, I feel great pride in America.




Someday maybe you will too.

First of all I was speaking for myself, but you seem to be putting a lot of words in my mouth that I didn't say. It seems that you are the one attempting to speak for me. I wasn't speaking about America in specific. I was speaking about mankind in general. I do have a lot of pride in my country. What I said was we have become a society of no shame. Children are born out of wedlock and there is no shame. Children are sucked out of the womb and there is no shame. Politicians get caught stealing and lying and their is no shame. People get killed because someone else wants their shoes or jackets or money and there is no shame. People make a career out of living off government handouts and there is no shame.

Molon Labe
04-08-2009, 11:55 AM
Speak for yourself, FlaGator...

Im sorry you feel shame and disgust for our country and society. I cannot speak for everyone, just myself, but I feel shame when I, as an individual does something wrong. When that happens I fully expect retribution.


Conversely, I feel great pride in America.

Someday maybe you will too.

He's right on. Alot of us feel pride in the values that America "stands for" as they are written in the founding documents. It's the living up to those standards and how they are treated in practice lately that gives us pause.

stsinner
04-08-2009, 01:29 PM
"Well, posterity, you will never know what it cost us to preserve your freedom. I only hope that you will make a good use of it. If you do not, I shall repent in heaven that I ever took half the pains to preserve it."
~John Adams~

There's your answer.

Awesome! Gonna have to borrow that one for my blog...

PoliCon
04-08-2009, 02:49 PM
I have this one as part of the signature on my email -
"Let the American youth never forget, that they possess a noble inheritance, bought by the toils, and sufferings, and blood of their ancestors; and capacity, if wisely improved, and faithfully guarded, of transmitting to their latest posterity all the substantial blessings of life, the peaceful enjoyment of liberty, property, religion, and independence." —Justice Joseph Story

MrsSmith
04-08-2009, 07:03 PM
Once upon a time...even Democrats could say, "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country."

Now the Democratic answer is...I hate repukes, the second amendment, common sense and work. I've done enough. Where's my stimulus money/free healthcare/24x7 entertainment/pony?

PoliCon
04-08-2009, 10:26 PM
Thy are very fixated on class envy as well as their bread and circus's's's's.

enslaved1
04-08-2009, 10:54 PM
If the founding fathers knew what we would do with the nation, do you think they still would have revolted?


This is not an Obama attack, this is politics as a whole attack. Why would someone want to fight for something if they knew it would get fucked up anyway? We revolted and won our freedom from England only to turn around just over two hundred years later and emulate them? Why even bother fighting them, why lose so many lives if the end result would be to come full circle? Now we are overtaxed by our own government instead of another, is that really any better?


I'm not saying the founding fathers did the wrong thing. We are still the greatest nation on the planet, although not as great as we once were or should be. Just an interesting question to me.

What I've read of the founding fathers (admittedly not nearly enough), I think they had a deep enough understanding of human nature to know that the system they created would get screwed up by people at some point. But they also knew that was not a good enough reason not to set an example of liberty and freedom for future people to follow, even if it was followed on the ashes of their original attempt. Demanding and encouraging free speech, as well as making sure the people had means to defend themselves are both strong indicators of this, IMHO.

Rebel Yell
04-09-2009, 11:34 AM
What I've read of the founding fathers (admittedly not nearly enough), I think they had a deep enough understanding of human nature to know that the system they created would get screwed up by people at some point. But they also knew that was not a good enough reason not to set an example of liberty and freedom for future people to follow, even if it was followed on the ashes of their original attempt. Demanding and encouraging free speech, as well as making sure the people had means to defend themselves are both strong indicators of this, IMHO.

They also thought "We the People" would have the balls to physically run the hooligans out of the captiol when needed, about every 20 years or so.

enslaved1
04-09-2009, 12:03 PM
They also thought "We the People" would have the balls to physically run the hooligans out of the captiol when needed, about every 20 years or so.

That's why I included the line about building on the ashes of their original nation. I hope it doesn't come to that, but sometimes you have to burn the field before you replant it.