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Troll
05-18-2009, 08:31 PM
A recent post by FlaGator got me thinking.


Too bad that we can't get two conservatives to agree on every point what conservates actually stand for.

It is hard, even amongst mainly like-minded conservatives, to beat out a set of issues, platforms and tenets that we can all agree on. We all have our pet issues, to say nothing of our day-to-day concerns. However, there is one issue that we should all be able to come together on.

That issue is the FairTax.

For those of you unfamiliar with the FairTax, I'll briefly sum it up. The FairTax would take away the government's power to directly tax income, and replace all of our current 'on the book' taxes with a national retail sales tax. You no longer have to think about what your gross and net incomes are - if you're hired at $40K a year, you bring home $40K a year. You pay 23% extra at the register (actually about the same price since the FairTax eliminates the embedded tax in goods) for the things you buy, and you receive a 'prebate' every month to cover the sales tax on the basic necessities of life.

Now I'd like to give you some of the implications of the FairTax. This would be a step in the right direction on our immigration problems, because only legal American citizens are eligible for the FairTax 'prebate'. This would be a step in the right direction in reducing the size of government, because the IRS would cease to exist in its current form. This would be a step in the right direction on the economy, because we would inject trillions more dollars just by bringing businesses operating overseas to American shores. This would be a step in the right direction on personal freedom, because any and all taxes you pay become voluntary.

So here's my proposal:

If you want tax reform,

If you are concerned about illegal immigration,

If you are concerned about government waste,

If you are concerned about the size of government,

If you would like to remove all involuntary taxes from your financial picture,

If you want to see price competition at work in the economy,

If you would like to start bringing businesses operating overseas into America,

If you would like to see economic and personal liberty take a huge leap forward,

look no further; the FairTax is your issue. Start writing your Congressmen about the FairTax. Tell them that the FairTax is the issue you're watching. Keep on top of them - they won't do this by themselves, because this is transferring power out of Washington directly to you. Are the 'tea parties' your thing? Bring FairTax signs to the next one.

When we get the FairTax passed, all the conservatives of every stripe can all re-adopt our pet issues, be it gay marriage, immigration, abortion or pork-barrel spending. But I cannot think of another piece of legislation currently in Congress that would at least partially address so many other issues.

Even to CU's lurking liberals, you should at least consider that the FairTax would completely remove the tax burden from the lower/middle class.

See here for more answers:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FairTax

http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer

FeebMaster
05-18-2009, 09:01 PM
Not that it wouldn't be nice, the black/gray market opportunities to avoid it would be amazing, but it is never going to happen. Ever. The people you guys repeatedly elect into government are not going to surrender power.

If they decided to move in this direction, they'll corrupt it so they don't have to give up any control. They'd phase it in and you'd have an income tax alongside the national sales tax. Then they'd never phase out the income tax.

You say it will only be at the retail level, but about nine seconds after they decide they need even more money, it's going to transform into a European style VAT.

Imagine the income tax we have now combined with a 20% VAT. That is the future of FairTax.

Rockntractor
05-18-2009, 09:15 PM
The politicians don't honor the Constitution or the laws we have now. There will never be a fair anything in this country.

Teetop
05-18-2009, 09:26 PM
The politicians don't honor the Constitution or the laws we have now. There will never be a fair anything in this country.

Sad to say, I agree.... :mad:

The fair tax system I have in mind is everyone, corporations and individuals, pay 10% or so...

No loopholes or deductions. Everyone wins.

Rockntractor
05-18-2009, 09:34 PM
Sad to say, I agree.... :mad:

The fair tax system I have in mind is everyone, corporations and individuals, pay 10% or so...

No loopholes or deductions. Everyone wins.
I would go with either tax in this thread. I listen to Neal Boortz every now and then how could you dissagree with it but it will never even come close to happening.

samurai
05-18-2009, 09:40 PM
Feeb is right, they'll never give up on the income tax, so this national sales tax will only be added IN ADDITION to what we are already paying.

Other negatives:
Every single person in the US will now be on the dole and dependent upon their government "prebate" check every month. Politicians (especially the left) will promise bigger "prebates" if you vote for them, and scare people by saying "the other guy will reduce/eliminate your prebate checks and starve poor people!" Think of the welfare rhetoric and fiddling, and the dependent psychology, and then expand it to EVERY US citizen...

Massive incentives for black market sales of goods under the table to pay no sales tax.

All online purchases that are currently free of taxes will then be taxed.

Sales taxes are some of the hardest taxes to collect and account for properly.


All in all, I think it's a bad idea and I don't know why people keep pushing it. Do they want nationwide universal welfare for all? Because that's what it amounts to.

AHeneen
05-19-2009, 12:20 AM
Instead of the 30-40% sales tax which FairTax advocates propose, how about a combined sales-income tax: 15% income tax, 15% sales tax...both fixed rates. Just like most current sales taxes, certain things like unprocessed foods will be exempt.

lacarnut
05-19-2009, 01:49 AM
Feeb is right, they'll never give up on the income tax, so this national sales tax will only be added IN ADDITION to what we are already paying.

Other negatives:
Every single person in the US will now be on the dole and dependent upon their government "prebate" check every month. Politicians (especially the left) will promise bigger "prebates" if you vote for them, and scare people by saying "the other guy will reduce/eliminate your prebate checks and starve poor people!" Think of the welfare rhetoric and fiddling, and the dependent psychology, and then expand it to EVERY US citizen...

Massive incentives for black market sales of goods under the table to pay no sales tax.

All online purchases that are currently free of taxes will then be taxed.

Sales taxes are some of the hardest taxes to collect and account for properly.


All in all, I think it's a bad idea and I don't know why people keep pushing it. Do they want nationwide universal welfare for all? Because that's what it amounts to.

The government can not run a whore house efficiently. How do you expect them to dole out prebate checks every month. The dummies at the IRS sent out those $250 checks to 35,000 dead people. The medicare/medicaid program, the post office, the defense department, etc, etc pisses away on average 20%of the money that they receive thru mismanagement and fraud. The fair tax would be a disaster. It will never happen because of the legal implications.

patriot45
05-19-2009, 05:26 AM
Instead of the 30-40% sales tax which FairTax advocates propose, how about a combined sales-income tax: 15% income tax, 15% sales tax...both fixed rates. Just like most current sales taxes, certain things like unprocessed foods will be exempt.

Wow, someone who hasn't read the fairtax is changing the wording to argue against it!

Here are the 5 myths;


The FairTax Five

The gloves are off as critics try to pick apart the FairTax. Trouble is, it's just a replay of the same five FairTax myths:

"The 23% rate is misleading. It's actually 30%"
Well, actually...
"It's not enforceable and evasion will be rampant"
Well, actually...
"It will not be revenue neutral at 23%"
Well, actually...
"The FairTax is not politically viable"
Well, actually...
"The FairTax is regressive and shifts the tax burden onto lower and middle income people"
Well, actually...


Any one can argue that it won't work or whatever, but the first thing you do is change the way it is written, thats not a fair assessment. Go here FairTax.org (http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer%3Fpagename%3Dabout_main&ei=ungSSuXVBNSLtge3uL2eBA&sa=X&oi=smap&resnum=1&ct=result&cd=1&usg=AFQjCNFldsQ6owKv34QEp_LnXMsdmszwvQ) and check it out the way it is meant to be.

and here (http://www.fairtax.org/PDF/Tax%20Notes%20article%20on%20FT%20rate.pdf) for more info.

FeebMaster
05-19-2009, 07:27 AM
Instead of the 30-40% sales tax which FairTax advocates propose, how about a combined sales-income tax: 15% income tax, 15% sales tax...both fixed rates. Just like most current sales taxes, certain things like unprocessed foods will be exempt.

Yes. A federal sales tax and a federal income tax. That would be awesome. Why not go for the trifecta and have a federal property tax too?

Jfor
05-19-2009, 08:52 AM
Yes. A federal sales tax and a federal income tax. That would be awesome. Why not go for the trifecta and have a federal property tax too?

You have no idea what you are talking about. In order for the Fairtax to become law, the 16th Amend ment HAS to be repealed. Of course you have known that if you would have gone to the links provided and actually read up on it.

FeebMaster
05-19-2009, 10:51 AM
You have no idea what you are talking about. In order for the Fairtax to become law, the 16th Amend ment HAS to be repealed. Of course you have known that if you would have gone to the links provided and actually read up on it.

I wasn't referring to the fair tax there. I was countering AHeneen's proposal.

I covered why the fairtax would fail earlier in the thread.

Molon Labe
05-19-2009, 11:37 AM
Troll
I don't want tax reform.....I want tax REPEAL. Reforming the way the government steals from us is not what I'd prefer.

Jfor
05-19-2009, 01:26 PM
I wasn't referring to the fair tax there. I was countering AHeneen's proposal.

I covered why the fairtax would fail earlier in the thread.

Gotcha!

Troll
05-19-2009, 06:24 PM
Allright! Lots of questions, comments and concerns! :D


If they decided to move in this direction, they'll corrupt it so they don't have to give up any control. They'd phase it in and you'd have an income tax alongside the national sales tax. Then they'd never phase out the income tax.

As has been noted, the legislation requires that the 16th Amendment be repealed before the FairTax becomes law. Congressman Linder was one step ahead of the Feds when the FairTax bill was written.


The fair tax system I have in mind is everyone, corporations and individuals, pay 10% or so...

I'll have to check my sources, but I believe that our current tax code began as a Flat Tax back in the 1980s. I would be more excited about a Flat Tax apart from the fact that it's already been tried.


Feeb is right, they'll never give up on the income tax, so this national sales tax will only be added IN ADDITION to what we are already paying.

See above.


I don't know why people keep pushing it.

1. Because it rewards achievement and punishes failure.

2. Because many of us operate under the assumption that anything would be better than what we have now.

3. Because a progressive income tax is a socialist platform.

4. Because it would bring a lot of overseas business to the US.

5. Because only legal US citizens would be eligible for a prebate.

6. Because it would reduce the size and power of government.

7. Because it is voluntary.

8. Because it would put price competition to work in the economy.

9. Because it advances economic and individual liberty.

10. Because apart from the Income Tax, it would eliminate the Death Tax, payroll taxes, the alternative minimum tax, capital gains tax, and others I can't recall at the moment.

So my question for you is: Why do you like the income tax so much?


]How do you expect them to dole out prebate checks every month.

As you're factoring in government incompetence, this is a legitimate concern. There will probably have to be a running head count of how many people are in which household, which will open the door for people committing fraud to get a bigger prebate. However, instead of thinking about $100 going missing here, $200 there, think about the trillions of dollars that will be injected into the economy from overseas businesses.


The medicare/medicaid program, the post office, the defense department, etc, etc pisses away on average 20%of the money that they receive thru mismanagement and fraud.

Look at it as a contest: Who can piss away more money between the government and taxpayers? My money's on the government. :D


I don't want tax reform.....I want tax REPEAL. Reforming the way the government steals from us is not what I'd prefer.

I won't argue with that - taxes, by nature, are taking from those who produce, and giving to those who do not. However, with regard to government and taxation in America, I see four avenues:

1. Status quo.

2. Flat Tax.

3. FairTax.

4. Repeal of all taxes, starting with the Income Tax.

The status quo sucks, a flat tax has been tried, and I think we both know number four will never happen.

Guys, I know it's scary. We're talking about taking power away from the federal government and giving it back to you. I'm not saying the FairTax is perfect, but look at all the tax fraud that goes on now - do you really think it'll get worse if we lessen the role of government in taxation?

FeebMaster
05-19-2009, 07:08 PM
As has been noted, the legislation requires that the 16th Amendment be repealed before the FairTax becomes law. Congressman Linder was one step ahead of the Feds when the FairTax bill was written.

That alone ensures that it will never happen.



Guys, I know it's scary. We're talking about taking power away from the federal government and giving it back to you. I'm not saying the FairTax is perfect, but look at all the tax fraud that goes on now - do you really think it'll get worse if we lessen the role of government in taxation?

I'm not sure it's fair to say it takes power away from the federal government. It just shifts that power into other areas. Hell, on the website it claims the FairTax will bring in an extra $358 billion for the feds. Is that supposed to be a selling point?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking it, really. I just question the supposed benefits it offers and I don't think it has a chance in hell of going anywhere.

lacarnut
05-19-2009, 07:20 PM
Allright! Lots of questions, comments and concerns! :D



As has been noted, the legislation requires that the 16th Amendment be repealed before the FairTax becomes law. Congressman Linder was one step ahead of the Feds when the FairTax bill was written.





Not only would the 16th Amendment have to be repealed but the 10th Amendment regarding the commerce clause banning the states from taxing interstate commerce providing that the entity did not have nexus would have to be tweaked in order for the fair tax to work. The states have tried for many years to tax internet sales and sales where nexus did not exist. The S.C. has shot them in most cases.

In my opinion, the best we could hope for is for the Congress to burn every Federal Income Tax law in existence and start over and come up with a simplified system. Tweaking the existing system just make it more complex and screwed up.