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megimoo
05-22-2009, 11:59 AM
Satan Worship in America

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzxtH15A_D0
Hon. James David Manning preaches about people who praise Barack Hussein Obama, Saul Alinsky, and Satan.[/B]

wilbur
05-22-2009, 12:44 PM
Its a wonder more people don't praise Satan... he's an immenently more likeable character in the Bible than that God person:




A. Satan is religious.

B. Satan believes in God.

C. Satan believes in Jesus (Since salvation is based on faith alone (Protestant); then Satan has salvation).

D. Satan believes in all the doctrines that make up soteriology in the Bible since he is portrayed as working against them.

E. Satan is a good friend of God: 1. In the Book of Job, Satan and God were betting buddies who made life Hell for poor ole faithful Job. 2. In Numbers 22, Satan is one of God messenger angles and he acts in accordance with Yahweh‘s will. (Check out the Hebrew here!)

F. The fact that Jesus stated that those who love him do the will of his father (God), than Satan proved that he also loved Jesus as he did the will of God as stated above.

G. Satan has more morals than God himself as Satan has never murdered defenseless men, women children, babies and the unborn as God did in the Hebrew Bible. Now, compared to God, Satan has been an angle of love (Note the objection to Revelation below).

H. Satan has a code of morals and ethics and abides by them as seen in the temptation of Jesus (unlike the murderous Israelite god Yahweh, Satan values life).

I. Satan is willing to be God’s “whipping boy” to allow Jesus to look good. But we should note! Satan has never said he was the leader of the demons. Demons are Gods own creations to affect fallen humanity after their expulsion from Eden and are God’s eternal curse on them. (In the New Testament, the term Devil can mean demons (Mark 1:34, 3:22; Matt. 9:34, 12:24; Luke 8:2, 9:1, 11:15; 1 Tim. 4:1; James 2:19) as well as Satan (Matt. 4:5, 8:11; Luke 4:2,3, 13; John 13:2, 8:44; James 4:7 and so on).

J. The Book of Revelation is a late addition to the Canon objected to as heretical by a number of the Church Fathers and Luther.(1) Fact is, the Book of Revelation late creation (post 90CE) is simply revisionist theology written to shift all God’s historical faults onto Satan.

K. Since Satan can not create anything; the problems imposed by Hell, the Lake of Fire, the Pit
(Rev. 9: 1,2 ) as depicted in Revelation from which stinging the demons come forth (Rev. 9:10), the Beast and the false prophet are all Gods creations and was one reason Revelation was considered heretical which contributed to its late inclusion in the New Testament Canon.

Fact is, the woes in the Book of Revelation are God’s own doing to make him look like a Deity in control (Like the deranged fireman who starts a fire so he can get the glory of being the first on the scene to put it out). In this sense, the self destructive God of Revelation is the same self destructive God in the book of Job who gloried in Job’s suffering to make himself look great!

L. Satan was never hated for what he preached unlike Jesus whose so-called ministry of love went from zero to death in three years or less! The statement that Jesus himself said: “By their fruits you will know them.” Matt. 7:16 - 20 by which Satan’s actions are vindicated while Jesus’ actions definitely are not (Jesus was the “tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire”/ crucified). It’s funny how a man like Jesus, who is said to have loved all of humanity, ended up hated and killed by the end results of his own so called love (Talk about a moral and ethical contradiction)!

M. Jesus believed in and trusted Satan so much that during all three temptations, Jesus followed Satan for 40 days (Mark 1: 13, Luke 4:2) and enjoyed Satan’s preaching (if he did not, why did he hang out with him for 40 days?). In the end, Jesus was as faithful to Satan as Jesus’ own disciples were to him in that Jesus abandon Satan just as the Disciples were to later abandon Jesus: A time when they were needed the most.

N. While Satan is called a “Liar and the father of all lies” the Bible fails to give not one single incident of Satan lying. Even the serpent in the Garden of Eden is depicted as stating the truth while Yahweh lied (The very day you eat of it, you shall die). This serpent in the Garden of Eden has more in common with the medical rod of Asclepius noted for wisdom.

P. Since Satan is a fallen angel, the atoning death of Jesus only benefits fallen humanity and not the spirit world, so just as the Church Father Origen’s belief in universal salvation implied Satan will be given salvation at the last judgment just as all Christians (Commentary on John 32.229f.).

Q. Satan did not create this Fallen World outside the Garden of Eden, God did. Just as God created the woes in the Book of Revelation to sadistically extract prayers and praises for himself, God created the Fallen World to sadistically billed himself up and extract prayers and praises for himself.

R. Sure, God gave his only son to die for a mess God himself created just like God created Satan as his escape goat to blame for his evil side. God uses others to carry the blame for his screw ups.

S. If one was to take the Bible and list all the evil deeds God has done compared to those deeds of Satan, the evil deeds of God recorded in his own word, the Bible, would over whelm any so-called evil deeds of Satan.


T. Finally, since the Bible lists the acts of God as a witness to his many evil and sadistic deeds, by such a Biblical witness, Satan is indeed a Christian!


(1) The Book, which was probably known to Papias is already ascribed by Justin to the Apostle John. This attribution was accepted in the Muratorian Canon and by Tertullian and Hippolytus and generally followed in the west.

In the East it was widely rejected, most notably by Alogi, Dionysius of Alexandria (who argued against its Apostolic authorship on the ground that it differs in style and content from the Fourth Gospel and believed it to be the work of some other John). It was also rejected by Eusebius. Some Eastern Church Fathers and Councils (Cyril of Jerusalem, the Council of Laodicea, john Chrysostom, Theodore of Mopsuestia0 did not include it in the Canon. It was also omitted originally from the Syriac Peshitta and the Armenian versions.


http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2009/04/satan-is-christian.html

Lars1701a
05-22-2009, 12:52 PM
Its a wonder more people don't praise Satan... he's an immenently more likeable character in the Bible than that God person:



http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2009/04/satan-is-christian.html

were you born a tool or did you have to work on it?


Well your lack of faith in God is more then enough praise for Satan.

noonwitch
05-22-2009, 01:41 PM
I have never read Saul Alinsky's works, so I really can't comment on the content. The minister cites a passage from Rules For Radicals where Alinsky uses Lucifer as an example of how to lead a revolution, but Alinsky probably doesn't believe that Lucifer/Satan are real beings, but are like Hades or Zeus, fictional beings. Most liberals, christian or not, don't believe in the existence of Satan. I don't, but I believe in God. I have had personal experiences that have convinced me of the existence of God, especially of the Holy Spirit. I haven't had any personal experiences that convinced me that there was a supernatural personification of evil who was trying to steal my soul. Any evil I have witnessed in my life has had an obvious human orgin.

The things Wilbur listed in his post are funny. If you read the Hebrew Scriptures on a purely literal level, Yaweh is a pretty bloody God, who loves to mess with humanity, when he's not enjoying the burnt meat sacrifices given to him by the faithful Israelites.

Constitutionally Speaking
05-22-2009, 01:49 PM
Wilbur,


You demonstrate an unbelievable degree of ignorance about what Christians believe. I would suggest you actually take some time to find out what you are talking about before you make such silly comments.

I'll give you a hint, you can't learn about Christianity from your anti-Christian sites.

linda22003
05-22-2009, 01:49 PM
Yaweh is a pretty bloody God, who loves to mess with humanity, when he's not enjoying the burnt meat sacrifices given to him by the faithful Israelites.

Well, who doesn't love barbecue?

wilbur
05-22-2009, 03:22 PM
Wilbur,


You demonstrate an unbelievable degree of ignorance about what Christians believe. I would suggest you actually take some time to find out what you are talking about before you make such silly comments.

I'll give you a hint, you can't learn about Christianity from your anti-Christian sites.

The copy and paste in my post really elucidated little commentary on what Christians actually believe... it offered up an alternate (only partially whimsical) interpretation of two characters in the Bible and the contrast between the two... Yahweh and Satan. It came to two conclusions...

1. Satan must have been Christian, since he believed all the essential doctrines.
2. All and all, he's a much more moral being than Yahweh.

It wasnt really concerned with Christian interpretations on those matters.

And just FYI, that site is run by well credentialed, ex-ministers, ex-preachers, ex-theologians and ex-religious philosophers... many of whose writings and works make it into curriculum at seminary schools to train future apologists.

noonwitch
05-22-2009, 04:24 PM
Well, who doesn't love barbecue?


I don't like it burned.

Churches in Detroit are ahead of us on this. The best barbeque I've ever had has come from church parking lots in Detroit. It's usually expensive (like $10 for chicken and two sides), but you know if you pay for a meal, someone is probably going to get a free one who needs it.

Rockntractor
05-22-2009, 04:48 PM
I don't like it burned.

Churches in Detroit are ahead of us on this. The best barbeque I've ever had has come from church parking lots in Detroit. It's usually expensive (like $10 for chicken and two sides), but you know if you pay for a meal, someone is probably going to get a free one who needs it.
10.00 for children? You mean like baby back ribs?

djones520
05-22-2009, 05:45 PM
Memnoch The Devil offered up a very interesting view of the relationship between God and Satan. Granted, the entire thing is a peice of fiction, but it still got the brain a thinkin.

megimoo
05-22-2009, 05:54 PM
Its a wonder more people don't praise Satan... he's an immenently more likeable character in the Bible than that God person:



http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2009/04/satan-is-christian.html
Are you into Satan worship Wilbur ?Why do you find him so likable,he sure hates you and your kind !

Gingersnap
05-22-2009, 10:27 PM
And just FYI, that site is run by well credentialed, ex-ministers, ex-preachers, ex-theologians and ex-religious philosophers... many of whose writings and works make it into curriculum at seminary schools to train future apologists.

So I guess they have the level of authoritative experience as ex-gays, ex-atheists, ex-whores, and ex-post modernists in your eyes, right? I mean, those people have a lot of web sites too. :p

MrsSmith
05-22-2009, 11:59 PM
A. Satan is religious.

B. Satan believes in God.

C. Satan believes in Jesus (Since salvation is based on faith alone (Protestant); then Satan has salvation). FAIL


Satan is smarter than an atheist, for sure.

Whoever wrote this list had blown it by C. Salvation is based on the acceptance of the indwelling Holy Spirit, something a supposed "ex-Christian" "ex-minister" "ex-apologist" should understand. :rolleyes:

wilbur
05-23-2009, 12:04 AM
So I guess they have the level of authoritative experience as ex-gays, ex-atheists, ex-whores, and ex-post modernists in your eyes, right? I mean, those people have a lot of web sites too. :p

There are generally no academic requirements for any of those categories.

wilbur
05-23-2009, 12:16 AM
Satan is smarter than an atheist, for sure.

Whoever wrote this list had blown it by C. Salvation is based on the acceptance of the indwelling Holy Spirit, something a supposed "ex-Christian" "ex-minister" "ex-apologist" should understand. :rolleyes:

That is certainly not the view of the larger body of protestants (which C was tied to, explicitly).... where salvation is couched in terms like "acceptance of Christ" or "belief in Christ as Lord", or "faith alone" (ie. the doctrine of sola fide).

Perhaps it is you who needs to brush up on your soteriology.

Rockntractor
05-23-2009, 12:23 AM
That is certainly not the view of the larger body of protestants (which C was tied to, explicitly).... where salvation is couched in terms like "acceptance of Christ" or "belief in Christ as Lord", or "faith alone" (ie. the doctrine of sola fide).


James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Rockntractor
05-23-2009, 12:26 AM
Please explain James 2:20, "...that faith without works is dead."

Answer

“But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?” What does this mean: "Faith without works is dead"? Does this mean that to be saved we have to do works? Well let’s find out.

Back up, verse 14. We have got to get the context. “What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him?”

Now what he is saying, James, that’s why Marten Luther said that the Book of James was a right strawy [something of little value] epistle, he didn’t like it, because it kind of fouled up his doctrine of justification by faith. But that is only because he didn’t study it in deep detail to see what was really being said.

What does the Bible teach about salvation? Abraham was justified by works? Romans four, is that what it says? "Abraham was justified by what...? "Faith." Abraham was not justified by works. Romans chapter three says, "No man is justified by works. By the deeds of the law shall..." what? "No flesh be justified," none. There is no way that we can be justified. In Romans 3:28, “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.” Salvation is by faith, not by works. Galatians chapter three tells us the same thing, that you cannot be justified by works, you cannot be saved by what you do, in terms of deeds. He says, “…they that are of faith,” Galatians 3:9, “are blessed with faithful Abraham.” It’s all a matter of faith. The man that is justified, he says in verse 11, “But no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, … The just shall live by faith.” Now the Bible teaches that you are saved by faith, well you say that what in the world is James saying?

Can faith save him? James is looking at this from the stand point of evaluation. He is looking at a man who says, "I have faith!" And he is saying, all right if you have true saving faith then I ought to see some evidence of it, right? “By their fruits you shall...” what? "...know them.”

He is simply saying, if your faith is genuine then it’s going to manifest itself. “If any man be in Christ he is a new creation, old thing are passed away and behold all things become...” what? "…new.” There is going to be a manifestation. And so he says, what kind of faith have you got my friend, I don’t see any evidence?

For example, he says, “If a brother or sister be naked and destitute of daily food and one of you who claims to have saving faith says depart in peace be warm and filled.” Just what he needs. Condolence. Hope you feel better, hope you find some food. But you don’t give him the things needful to the body, what kind of faith is that? If you’re really saved it’s going to be a working kind of salvation that will bear fruit. That’s all he’s saying. So, in verse seventeen, “…so faith, if it doesn't have works, is dead, because it's alone.” So it’s a dead faith not a living faith. If “a man may say, thou hast faith, and I have works; show me your faith without your works, and I'll show you my faith by my works.” And he contrasts two kinds of faith.

One kind of faith is the faith that doesn’t have any works and it is dead faith and the other faith is the faith that produces something and its living faith. One saves and one doesn’t. That’s what he is saying, "Oh," but he says "I believe, I believe," "Yeah," he says, "The devils believe and they tremble." It’s not enough to believe unless that believing results in an act of commitment to Christ that results in a changed life that bears fruit. That’s his whole point.

http://www.biblebb.com/files/macqa/1301-E-10.htm

wilbur
05-23-2009, 12:28 AM
James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Not all Christian sects adhere to a "works" based soteriology.... Catholicism is one of the major ones that does. Protestants don't.

Rockntractor
05-23-2009, 12:34 AM
Not all Christian sects adhere to a "works" based soteriology.... Catholicism is one of the major ones that does. Protestants don't.
That was written by john MacAurther An evangelical protostant minister and you will find few who will dissagree with hiis exposition of scripture here. You asked a question I gave you an answer now give me the courtesy of reading and studying it.

CueSi
05-23-2009, 12:40 AM
The OP was not that great, but. . .I liken Satan and our attitude toward him as our attitudes towards . . .vampires. At first, we knew they were evil. They were out to take something from us, and to be destroyed. Then, they were to be "understood", then "desired" and now they fucking SPARKLE? DubyaTeeEff?

I want my Devil and my vampires to be evil again.

~QC

wilbur
05-23-2009, 12:42 AM
That was written by john MacAurther An evangelical protostant minister and you will find few who will dissagree with hiis exposition of scripture here. You asked a question I gave you an answer now give me the courtesy of reading and studying it.

I didnt ask a question, and I did read it... it actually doesn't disagree with what I said, that salvation is based on faith alone (sola fide) (again, which depends on the sect)... so not exactly sure what your point is.

Rockntractor
05-23-2009, 12:46 AM
I didnt ask a question, and I did read it... it actually doesn't disagree with what I said, that salvation is based on faith alone (sola fide) (again, which depends on the sect)... so not exactly sure what your point is.
You no very well what my point is. The devil believes jesus is God but does not follow him. His faith is dead. He is not saved. study the texts in the exposition. It is as clear as crystal.

wilbur
05-23-2009, 12:50 AM
You no very well what my point is. The devil believes jesus is God but does not follow him. His faith is dead. He is not saved. study the texts in the exposition. It is as clear as crystal.

Well, that was part of the copy and paste that I posted in the thread... that the works of Yahweh/Christ were demonstrably worse in many respects, than the works of Satan, as documented in the Bible... and that judging Satan by those works makes him a pretty swell character.

Rockntractor
05-23-2009, 12:56 AM
Well, that was part of the copy and paste that I posted in the thread... that the works of Yahweh/Christ were demonstrably worse in many respects, than the works of Satan, as documented in the Bible.
My position and the answers to your question are in the materials I posted. You haven't looked up the passages our studied the exposition in the amount of time since I posted it. Study what I posted and if you have any questions tommarow I will do my best to answer them for you.

MrsSmith
05-23-2009, 11:30 AM
I didnt ask a question, and I did read it... it actually doesn't disagree with what I said, that salvation is based on faith alone (sola fide) (again, which depends on the sect)... so not exactly sure what your point is.

Again, you demonstrate your ignorance. :rolleyes::rolleyes: Don't you ever get tired of looking dumb?

Faith in Christ is not just believing He exists...(obviously, Satan knows Him far better than you do, as do all the demons - {fallen angels} )...it is accepting His offer of salvation. Thousands of Jews and Gentiles believed in His existance during His time walking the Earth, but only those that accepted Him as Savior were saved.

wilbur
05-23-2009, 11:37 AM
Again, you demonstrate your ignorance. :rolleyes::rolleyes: Don't you ever get tired of looking dumb?

Faith in Christ is not just believing He exists...(obviously, Satan knows Him far better than you do, as do all the demons - {fallen angels} )...it is accepting His offer of salvation. Thousands of Jews and Gentiles believed in His existance during His time walking the Earth, but only those that accepted Him as Savior were saved.

According to sola fide, FAITH is the act of acceptance (wich Satan arguably has), thats the whole freakin point of the doctrine.

Rockntractor
05-23-2009, 11:47 AM
According to sola fide, FAITH is the act of acceptance (wich Satan arguably has), thats the whole freakin point of the doctrine.
You have either not read or studied any of the material I posted or your heart is hardened. You wish only to mock christ. For me this conversation is over.

MrsSmith
05-23-2009, 01:32 PM
According to sola fide, FAITH is the act of acceptance (wich Satan arguably has), thats the whole freakin point of the doctrine.

If Satan had accepted salvation from Christ, he wouldn't be Satan. Duh... :rolleyes: As always, you miss the whole freakin point.

Satan feels that he is better than Christ, better than God, in a position to judge, and that he should be God. Very similar to many atheists.

Constitutionally Speaking
05-23-2009, 02:12 PM
According to sola fide, FAITH is the act of acceptance (wich Satan arguably has), thats the whole freakin point of the doctrine.

Um, this is merely the belief that you cannot do good works to "buy" your way into heaven. You must have faith.

Part of that faith is accepting him as your savior - not merely acknowledging his existence.

You really need to learn a bit of something about which you speak - and I say again, you cannot get it from anti-Christian sites.

NJCardFan
05-23-2009, 05:29 PM
Satan is a Christian. This has got to be the funniest thing I've read today. Satan has never killed anyone? Huh. I guess Richard Ramirez has a bit of explaining to do. Satan is the tempter. He may not have directly killed anyone but he has used man as a tool for his deeds.

FlaGator
05-23-2009, 05:33 PM
Satan is a Christian. This has got to be the funniest thing I've read today. Satan has never killed anyone? Huh. I guess Richard Ramirez has a bit of explaining to do. Satan is the tempter. He may not have directly killed anyone but he has used man as a tool for his deeds.

In job, Satan kills Job's entire family by causing a building to collapse upon them.

Satan believes in the reality of Christ, however, Satan is not capable of repenting of his sins and that is the mitigating behavior that evidences true acceptence of Christ's offer of salvation. It is not a work in that repentance is not possible for falling man. It is a behavior change due to the restorative work of the Holy Spirit.

Rockntractor
05-23-2009, 05:40 PM
Satan is a Christian. This has got to be the funniest thing I've read today. Satan has never killed anyone? Huh. I guess Richard Ramirez has a bit of explaining to do. Satan is the tempter. He may not have directly killed anyone but he has used man as a tool for his deeds.
Atheists to mock Christians have used Wilbur’s argument for years. It is nothing new. If I was Wilbur and I planned on remaining an atheist I would not seek to gain more knowledge of the bible. The more he learns the more God will hold him accountable for his rejection of Christ. Why if you are an atheist would you waste the precious days of your life arguing with people that believe in some sky god on a forum? Soon you would be dead like a possum on the side of the road with no time left.

hazlnut
05-23-2009, 11:55 PM
Sorry, I thought this thread was about Dick Cheney apologists.
:eek::rolleyes::mad: