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AlmostThere
05-31-2009, 01:24 PM
Just heard that Doctor Tiller was shot to death entering church this morning.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,523581,00.html

MrsSmith
05-31-2009, 02:03 PM
Just heard that Doctor Tiller was shot to death entering church this morning.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,523581,00.html

Prayers for that man's soul.

CueSi
05-31-2009, 02:12 PM
Aw, FUCK.

And you know who they're blaming, right? OH yeah. . .good times, good times. . ./sarc

~QC

blueyonder
05-31-2009, 02:23 PM
OK FOLKS...it is now time to come together on the “right”. As much as I do not like it when someone is killed, Tillers death is not what I am addressing here. The left will use this against the right (we are bad, terrorist, extremist, etc.). Our job is not to play defense, it is to NOT ALLOW them to box us in to begin with. You know they will try to lump us all together with the shooter. Be vigilant. Do not allow them to categorize us as one in the same!!! You now know how the game will be played, stand firm.

Prayers for the family.

Dan D. Doty
05-31-2009, 03:12 PM
OK FOLKS...it is now time to come together on the “right”. As much as I do not like it when someone is killed, Tillers death is not what I am addressing here. The left will use this against the right (we are bad, terrorist, extremist, etc.). Our job is not to play defense, it is to NOT ALLOW them to box us in to begin with. You know they will try to lump us all together with the shooter. Be vigilant. Do not allow them to categorize us as one in the same!!! You now know how the game will be played, stand firm.

Prayers for the family.

Blue, you're right. DU has already gone ape sh*t over this.

Hate to think this could be the start of something really bad for this country; Moonbats are looking for an excuse to hurt people who disagree with them, and this just might be it.

Get ready for the worse kids. The dark storm is here.

A man got murdered to today and the Moonbats will want to punish millions for it.

wilbur
05-31-2009, 03:19 PM
Blue, you're right. DU has already gone ape sh*t over this.

Hate to think this could be the start of something really bad for this country; Moonbats are looking for an excuse to hurt people who disagree with them...


Actually, this tragedy is quite an example of such ugliness.

FlaGator
05-31-2009, 03:28 PM
It just goes to show you that evil can infest and use any cause or desire it wishes if there are people who are open to the lure of revenge or some perverted sense of justice. It is sad that people whether, they are babies or abortionists, have to be murdered to appease someone elses idea of morality.

Rockntractor
05-31-2009, 03:54 PM
Blue, you're right. DU has already gone ape sh*t over this.

Hate to think this could be the start of something really bad for this country; Moonbats are looking for an excuse to hurt people who disagree with them, and this just might be it.

Get ready for the worse kids. The dark storm is here.

A man got murdered to today and the Moonbats will want to punish millions for it.
DU has something to focus on for a while. It has been Dick Chenney and torture. The gays will continue to rant and rave about gay marrage. Now the rest can move on to a real criminal for awhile.

hazlnut
05-31-2009, 08:04 PM
Very sad.

My heart goes out to Tiller's family.

A 51-year-old male has been arrested (http://www.kansascity.com/657/story/1225769.html?storylink=omni_popular).

Teetop
05-31-2009, 09:14 PM
Very sad.

My heart goes out to Tiller's family.

A 51-year-old male has been arrested (http://www.kansascity.com/657/story/1225769.html?storylink=omni_popular).

Especially the 51 year old, What his family must think...


Tiller 'the baby killer's" family also, it's not easy being slapped by Karma..., or reality.

I won't lose any sleep over this. Life goes on......

AHeneen
05-31-2009, 09:46 PM
While I think what Tiller has done was deplorable, church is a holy place and murdering someone there is nearly as deplorable.

MrsSmith
05-31-2009, 09:50 PM
While I think what Tiller has done was deplorable, church is a holy place and murdering someone there is nearly as deplorable.
Murdering anyone, anywhere, is deplorable. Especially someone who has obviously not repented and accepted Christ. :(

Rockntractor
05-31-2009, 09:52 PM
Murdering anyone, anywhere, is deplorable. Especially someone who has obviously not repented and accepted Christ. :(
I envy the degree of your faith!

Lars1701a
05-31-2009, 10:26 PM
Very sad.

My heart goes out to Tiller's family.

A 51-year-old male has been arrested (http://www.kansascity.com/657/story/1225769.html?storylink=omni_popular).

I hope you can also feel some sadness for the hundreds of babies he had murdered. :rolleyes:


but i doubt it.

hazlnut
05-31-2009, 11:59 PM
Tiller's Family's Statement


"Today we mourn the loss of our husband, father and grandfather. Today's event is an unspeakable tragedy for all of us and for George's friends and patients. This is particularly heart wrenching because George was shot down in his house of worship, a place of peace.

We would like to express the family's thanks for the many messages of sympathy from our friends and from all across the nation. We also want to thank the law enforcement officers who are investigating this crime.

Our loss is also a loss for the City of Wichita and women across America. George dedicated his life to providing women with high-quality heath care despite frequent threats and violence. We ask that he be remembered as a good husband, father and grandfather and a dedicated servant on behalf of the rights of women everywhere."

Arrest Update:


Johnson County Sheriff's deputies stopped Scott Roeder on I-35 between the two main Gardner exits around 1:30 p.m. He surrendered without incident. Deputies did not find any weapons on him...

According to Phannestiel, Roeder is on temporary hold for Sedgwick County at the Johnson County New Century Detention Center near Gardner. Roeder is considered a person of interest at this time

AmPat
06-01-2009, 03:01 AM
Actually, this tragedy is quite an example of such ugliness.

It's on that scale of ugliness that we see whenever liberal weirdos protest every other day. :cool:

Teetop
06-01-2009, 06:07 AM
I hope you can also feel some sadness for the hundreds of babies he had murdered. :rolleyes:


but i doubt it.

Of course, I do. Tiller, not so much, just his family.

FlaGator
06-01-2009, 06:29 AM
I see this as a tragedy all around, for the unborn who where aborted, for Tiller, for his family, for the murderer and for the doctor who will step in to take Tiller's place.

wilbur
06-01-2009, 07:49 AM
It's on that scale of ugliness that we see whenever liberal weirdos protest every other day. :cool:

Actually, if you wanna see ugly... head on over to the freep and look at threads about this case. Many cannot hide their joy.

gator
06-01-2009, 08:51 AM
The sonofabitch deserved to be whacked. He was a murderer of children. Just because the friggin government allowed him to do it doesn't make it right.

He may have been in church but he has a lot of explaining to do to the Lord about why he killed children for the sake of convenience of the mother. I don't think he has a very good explanation.

I look at it as somebody performed a "late term abortion" on his murderous ass. Turn about is fair play, isn't it?

It is time that Conservatives started to stand up for something. Trying to be politically correct when it comes to abortion is very weak minded. I don't give a shit what the dickheads on DU are saying. It was a good thing that real justice was performed in this case.

hazlnut
06-01-2009, 11:53 AM
The sonofabitch deserved to be whacked. He was a murderer of children. Just because the friggin government allowed him to do it doesn't make it right.

He may have been in church but he has a lot of explaining to do to the Lord about why he killed children for the sake of convenience of the mother. I don't think he has a very good explanation.

I look at it as somebody performed a "late term abortion" on his murderous ass. Turn about is fair play, isn't it?

It is time that Conservatives started to stand up for something. Trying to be politically correct when it comes to abortion is very weak minded. I don't give a shit what the dickheads on DU are saying. It was a good thing that real justice was performed in this case.

You seem to advocating this violent vigilantism. This is a nation of laws and the law of the land is that you CAN NOT kill someone just because you disagree with him.

The man who killed Tiller did not save lives. Another doctor will step in and follow the state laws. I have saved more lives than Tiller's murderer in supporting adoption charities that help underage girls carry to term. How many children have you adopted? How many children has Tiller's murderer adopted?

From early reports, it seems Scott Roeder was a very disturbed loaner--arrested in 1996 for possession of bomb-making materials. To the extent individuals are praising him is sick and anti-American as they have no respect for laws of the land.

Do you understand anything about Kansas law regarding late-term abortion? It is a quality of life issue and two doctors must agree.

Do you think a mother should be forced to bring a child into this world with severe physical, brain, or heart defects? My understanding is that Tiller followed state and federal law, therefore, whether we agree with the law or not, he NEVER committed murder.

I believe 2nd term and late-term abortion laws should be more restrictive. How do we move the law in that direction--I don't know? What I do know is that murdering a doctor who never broke the law does not help the cause.

wilbur
06-01-2009, 12:21 PM
You seem to advocating this violent vigilantism. This is a nation of laws and the law of the land is that you CAN NOT kill someone just because you disagree with him.

The man who killed Tiller did not save lives. Another doctor will step in and follow the state laws. I have saved more lives than Tiller's murderer in supporting adoption charities that help underage girls carry to term. How many children have you adopted? How many children has Tiller's murderer adopted?

From early reports, it seems Scott Roeder was a very disturbed loaner--arrested in 1996 for possession of bomb-making materials. To the extent individuals are praising him is sick and anti-American as they have no respect for laws of the land.

Do you understand anything about Kansas law regarding late-term abortion? It is a quality of life issue and two doctors must agree.

Do you think a mother should be forced to bring a child into this world with severe physical, brain, or heart defects? My understanding is that Tiller followed state and federal law, therefore, whether we agree with the law or not, he NEVER committed murder.

I believe 2nd term and late-term abortion laws should be more restrictive. How do we move the law in that direction--I don't know? What I do know is that murdering a doctor who never broke the law does not help the cause.

What you are seeing is seeing with people such as Gator, and the lunatics at the freep, is the philosophy of a 'just war' being applied to abortion... the inevitable end product of years and years of the radical pro-life rhetoric in a nation that doesnt agree with them.

I'm not sure if things have always been as extreme as they are now, but it certainly seems like its getting more and more radical.. perhaps its just the climate... with a democrat president, societal acceptance of homosexuality and abortion, the desperation in the air, emanating from the radical right, is thick... thicker than I have ever seen it. Calls for war, revolution, are common place... one has to seriously wonder if this lunacy won't eventually end in a civil war, unless the petulant radicals get their way. And then we will have yet another conflict to credit to the bunk ideologies of ancient middle eastern shepherds.

Hopefully, the cooler heads prevail.

Rebel Yell
06-01-2009, 12:32 PM
What you are seeing is seeing with people such as Gator, and the lunatics at the freep, is the philosophy of a 'just war' being applied to abortion... the inevitable end product of years and years of the radical pro-life rhetoric in a nation that doesnt agree with them.

I'm not sure if things have always been as extreme as they are now, but it certainly seems like its getting more and more radical.. perhaps its just the climate... with a democrat president, societal acceptance of homosexuality and abortion, the desperation in the air, emanating from the radical right, is thick... thicker than I have ever seen it. Calls for war, revolution, are common place... one has to seriously wonder if this lunacy won't eventually end in a civil war, if the petulant radicals don't get their way. And then we will have yet another conflict to credit to the bunk ideologies of ancient middle eastern shepherds.

There are extremes on both sides. Don't act like you haven't seen the same things at the DUmp, only in much greater quantity, for the last eight years. When that church was attacked a few months ago, remember the loony left saying the parishoners deserved it for disagreeing with the homosexual lifestyle?

If there wasn't a civil war during the last eight years there won't be one now. The only way a civil war will happen, will be if the government instigates it. The "gun nuts" collect guns to protect themselves from an oppressive government, not to overthrow it. Look at the difference in the major protests from both sides. the right had "tea parties". No one was destroying state or private property, everything went off without a hitch. Have you seen the anti-war/gay rights/environmental protests? You have people throwing whatever they can pick up, people snatching religious symbols from the elderly and stomping on them, Sea Shephard attacking and ramming commercial whaling vessels (who, like the abortion doctor are practicing within the law).

So, let's be careful where we cast stones.

Molon Labe
06-01-2009, 12:32 PM
You seem to advocating this violent vigilantism. This is a nation of laws and the law of the land is that you CAN NOT kill someone just because you disagree with him.

I believe 2nd term and late-term abortion laws should be more restrictive. How do we move the law in that direction--I don't know? What I do know is that murdering a doctor who never broke the law does not help the cause.

Of course it doesn't help the cause and I won't justify his killing, but his death speaks to something much more problematic.
That this is just one more way government has failed to protect it's citizens...ALL citizens. You're going to see alot more of this type behavior. It's the same thing that breeds other forms of radicalism. When the rule of law fails and when you aren't protected (in this case the rights of all persons born and unborn), then the radical kook gets a voice and a sympathtic ear from people who would ordinarily not entertain it.
I finally figured out that the Republican party doesn't give a frak about ending abortion....never really has cared.....it's all just lip service to get votes and SCOTUS judges who wouldn't dare touch it.
Now this guy is the target of that failure from the failure of the system. It's a shame really.

And just why is "quality of life" such an important issue before a birth....but not so much of one with say a teenage peson with a similar "quality of life" defect?

wilbur
06-01-2009, 12:35 PM
There are extremes on both sides. Don't act like you haven't seen the same things at the DUmp, only in much greater quantity, for the last eight years. When that church was attacked a few months ago, remember the loony left saying the parishoners deserved it for disagreeing with the homosexual lifestyle?


I don't know.. theres quite a lot of looney radicalism at the freep too... CU is generally a luke-warm version of the freep (I dare-say much more sensible, most of the time), but the freep is more comparable to DU than CU is, volume wise.... and the freep is a scary scary place.

AlmostThere
06-01-2009, 12:36 PM
Do you understand anything about Kansas law regarding late-term abortion? It is a quality of life issue and two doctors must agree.

I've heard reported that Tiller would have an associate who worked for him act as the second opinion. Hardly a independent diagnosis. Hasn't the state of Kansas found Tiller's practices to at least be suspect? I'm not sure I'd argue he was just an honest guy doing a tough job.

wilbur
06-01-2009, 12:37 PM
Of course it doesn't help the cause and I won't justify his killing, but his death speaks to something much more problematic.
That this is just one more way government has failed to protect it's citizens...ALL citizens. You're going to see alot more of this type behavior. It's the same thing that breeds other forms of radicalism. When the rule of law fails and when you aren't protected (in this case the rights of all persons born and unborn), then the radical kook gets a voice and a sympathtic ear from people who would ordinarily not entertain it.
I finally figured out that the Republican party doesn't give a frak about ending abortion....never really has cared.....it's all just lip service to get votes and SCOTUS judges who wouldn't dare touch it.
Now this guy is the target of that failure from the failure of the system. It's a shame really.

And just why is "quality of life" such an important issue before a birth....but not so much of one with say a teenage peson with a similar "quality of life" defect?

So the system fails because pro-lifer's didnt get their way? Perhaps some need to come to grips with the possibility that the system did work, and that its not the system which needs to be adjusted here....

Rebel Yell
06-01-2009, 12:51 PM
I don't know.. theres quite a lot of looney radicalism at the freep too... CU is generally a luke-warm version of the freep (I dare-say much more sensible, most of the time), but the freep is more comparable to DU than CU is, volume wise.... and the freep is a scary scary place.

That's was the point of the post. It goes on, on both sides, I don't go to Free Republic. I'm not gonna be lumped in with a bunch of keyboard warriors. 99% of people on these sites are just that. To really get a grip of the loonies, look at real life protests.

Molon Labe
06-01-2009, 01:00 PM
So the system fails because pro-lifer's didnt get their way? Perhaps some need to come to grips with the possibility that the system did work, and that its not the system which needs to be adjusted here....

Roe V Wade is bad law. There has never been a honest solution for the abortion issue that gives it to the public to decide what it will tolerate. You leave it in the hands of a minoirty to dictate to the rest of us for 30years and you breed radicalism. This isn't something akin to some body blowing away someone because he has to wear a seatbelt or can't smoke pot or pays too much taxes. There's an issue where people believe that someone is taking a life. There are some of us you believe that abortion is as much a modern holocaust as any other perpetuated.

FlaGator
06-01-2009, 01:01 PM
The sonofabitch deserved to be whacked. He was a murderer of children. Just because the friggin government allowed him to do it doesn't make it right.

He may have been in church but he has a lot of explaining to do to the Lord about why he killed children for the sake of convenience of the mother. I don't think he has a very good explanation.

I look at it as somebody performed a "late term abortion" on his murderous ass. Turn about is fair play, isn't it?

It is time that Conservatives started to stand up for something. Trying to be politically correct when it comes to abortion is very weak minded. I don't give a shit what the dickheads on DU are saying. It was a good thing that real justice was performed in this case.

That's God's choice not ours, since abortion is the law of the land. I direct you to Romans 13 if youre interested.

hazlnut
06-01-2009, 01:02 PM
I've heard reported that Tiller would have an associate who worked for him act as the second opinion. Hardly a independent diagnosis. Hasn't the state of Kansas found Tiller's practices to at least be suspect? I'm not sure I'd argue he was just an honest guy doing a tough job.

I've heard that too. I just think we need to trust the process and not take matters into our own hands.

Also, since I don't know the circumstances behind every late-term abortion he performed, it's hard for me to say anything beyond it's of great concern to me, and I'd like the laws to demand more independence between the two doctors. Although, this may put a undue burden on victims of incest and rape who don't come forward right way.

Legislating this issue is difficult, but this shooting will only serve to hurt the non-violent pro-life effort.

FlaGator
06-01-2009, 01:07 PM
Roe V Wade is bad law. There has never been a honest solution for the abortion issue that gives it to the public to decide what it will tolerate. You leave it in the hands of a minoirty to dictate to the rest of us for 30years and you breed radicalism. This isn't something akin to some body blowing away someone because he has to wear a seatbelt or can't smoke pot or pays too much taxes. There's an issue where people believe that someone is taking a life. There are some of us you believe that abortion is as much a modern holocaust as any other perpetuated.

Bad law or not, I think the Romans 13 gives us God's thought on matters such as this. Christians are to forgive both murderers and leave the ultimate just to God. The state has now required to step in and issue justice because the law right or wrong must be applied evenly. If the murderer had just let things be then God would have issued his verdict on the abortionist in His time. Now he is doubly wrong he has broken the law of God and man.

gator
06-01-2009, 01:24 PM
Bad law or not, I think the Romans 13 gives us God's thought on matters such as this. Christians are to forgive both murderers and leave the ultimate just to God. The state has now required to step in and issue justice because the law right or wrong must be applied evenly. If the murderer had just let things be then God would have issued his verdict on the abortionist in His time. Now he is doubly wrong he has broken the law of God and man.


I don't think there is anything in the Bible that requires that we let people murder little children, even if is legal.

Children cannot protect themselves and it is up to us to protect them, even when the law fails.

The doctor will be judged by God but in the meantime he has been judged by Man and held accountable for the slaughter of the Innocents.

FlaGator
06-01-2009, 01:29 PM
I don't think there is anything in the Bible that requires that we let people murder little children, even if is legal.

Children cannot protect themselves and it is up to us to protect them, even when the law fails.

The doctor will be judged by God but in the meantime he has been judged by Man and held accountable for the slaughter of the Innocents.

The Bible says that we should obey the law of the land. If we can't keep man's laws then God knows that we can't keep his laws which are much stricter.

Molon Labe
06-01-2009, 01:34 PM
Bad law or not, I think the Romans 13 gives us God's thought on matters such as this. Christians are to forgive both murderers and leave the ultimate just to God. The state has now required to step in and issue justice because the law right or wrong must be applied evenly. If the murderer had just let things be then God would have issued his verdict on the abortionist in His time. Now he is doubly wrong he has broken the law of God and man.

And I don't intend to justify what this guy did to the Dr. , but I do understand how this subject can radicalize others into doing something this rash. I tend to have a personal conflict with whether I agree with the death penalty or not for exactly the same reasons you outline.
I agree with you're assessment. I'll also add that is there a possibility that one day this doctor may have repented for his actions? Who knows, now that possibility has been extinguished. That too is a tragedy.

gator
06-01-2009, 01:41 PM
The Bible says that we should obey the law of the land. If we can't keep man's laws then God knows that we can't keep his laws which are much stricter.

Laws are made by men and they are fallible. Look at the laws that were made by Germany prior to WWII as an extreme example.

I reserve the right to oppose any law that allows the murder of children. Knowing that you are a moral man I am surprised that you do not feel the same.

FlaGator
06-01-2009, 01:47 PM
And I don't intend to justify what this guy did to the Dr. , but I do understand how this subject can radicalize others into doing something this rash. I tend to have a personal conflict with whether I agree with the death penalty or not for exactly the same reasons you outline.
I agree with you're assessment. I'll also add that is there a possibility that one day this doctor may have repented for his actions? Who knows, now that possibility has been extinguished. That too is a tragedy.

I struggle with this myself because I understand the anger and frustration that seeming led the killer to do what he has done. Because I understand it, however, doesn't mean I agree with it. From a sociological point of view he has broken the law and killed someone who was not breaking the law. From a Christian point of view he took the duties of God upon himself and executed his own sense of justice without knowing the big picture. As you pointed out, perhaps Dr. Tiller would have repented and become a strong advocate against abortion but now that potential voice has been silenced. The really sad thought is that a man is dead, another man's life is over for all practical purposes and no babies were saved. How is that justice? What is this but an emotional bone thrown to our animal nature for us to chew on for a while? At best it accomplished nothing and at worse it will provide cause for the government to issue further regulations and restrictions on sharing the truth of abortion.

FlaGator
06-01-2009, 01:48 PM
Laws are made by men and they are fallible. Look at the laws that were made by Germany prior to WWII as an extreme example.

I reserve the right to oppose any law that allows the murder of children. Knowing that you are a moral man I am surprised that you do not feel the same.

But God says you don't have that right, he does. Do you consider your justice on the same level as God's?

Lars1701a
06-01-2009, 01:53 PM
What you are seeing is seeing with people such as Gator, and the lunatics at the freep, is the philosophy of a 'just war' being applied to abortion... the inevitable end product of years and years of the radical pro-life rhetoric in a nation that doesnt agree with them.

I'm not sure if things have always been as extreme as they are now, but it certainly seems like its getting more and more radical.. perhaps its just the climate... with a democrat president, societal acceptance of homosexuality and abortion, the desperation in the air, emanating from the radical right, is thick... thicker than I have ever seen it. Calls for war, revolution, are common place... one has to seriously wonder if this lunacy won't eventually end in a civil war, unless the petulant radicals get their way. And then we will have yet another conflict to credit to the bunk ideologies of ancient middle eastern shepherds.

Hopefully, the cooler heads prevail.


This is not about smoking pot or "doing your thing" its about innocent lives being snuffed out. I dont give a shit that it is the "law of the land" its still wrong.

I beg to disagree with you on societal acceptance of homos, 90 percent of the time society gets a chance to vote on wither or not to accept their putrid lifestyle they almost always vote against said lifestyle choices. You people need a court to push your agenda.

Lars1701a
06-01-2009, 01:55 PM
I've heard that too. I just think we need to trust the process and not take matters into our own hands.

Also, since I don't know the circumstances behind every late-term abortion he performed, it's hard for me to say anything beyond it's of great concern to me, and I'd like the laws to demand more independence between the two doctors. Although, this may put a undue burden on victims of incest and rape who don't come forward right way.

Legislating this issue is difficult, but this shooting will only serve to hurt the non-violent pro-life effort.

Its sad he did it in a church but I am glad the scum bag is dead.


In case of rape I dont see why the child should suffer.

FlaGator
06-01-2009, 02:34 PM
This is not about smoking pot or "doing your thing" its about innocent lives being snuffed out. I dont give a shit that it is the "law of the land" its still wrong.

I beg to disagree with you on societal acceptance of homos, 90 percent of the time society gets a chance to vote on wither or not to accept their putrid lifestyle they almost always vote against said lifestyle choices. You people need a court to push your agenda.

I hope you and wilbur aren't about to stray off topic...;) I don't know who to split thread yet.

Lars1701a
06-01-2009, 02:35 PM
I hope you and wilbur aren't about to stray off topic...;) I don't know who to split thread yet.

Sorry, you may flog me now. :D

gator
06-01-2009, 02:40 PM
But God says you don't have that right, he does. Do you consider your justice on the same level as God's?

Laws are made by men and "justice" is dispensed on a daily basis throughout the realm of Man. Sometime it is right and sometimes it is wrong.

Justice was dispensed on Sunday when a killer of little children was held accountable for his crimes. Just because a ruling by a few members of some court did not make it a crime to kill little children does not make it right nor does it put it in favor with the Lord. Not the Lord that I know.

I am sure the Lord wept for all the children the man killed. Maybe it was God's will that somebody put a stop to it and to warn others not to do the same.

By the way, you and I may be in the same boat. Except for typing a few words on the Internet now and then I have really never did much to oppose the slaughter of the little children. How can I explain to the Lord on Judgment Day that I did nothing while the children were being killed?

The only other thing that I have done is that my wife and I did work at our church a few years ago to council unwed mothers not to get an abortion.

The doctor did a hideous crime against innocent children. He got his just reward. I don’t care if what he did was legal or not. The fact that it was legal is an indictment of how weak we all are to allow our government to sanction the slaughter of children. Shame on all of us!

Lager
06-01-2009, 02:43 PM
I don't know.. theres quite a lot of looney radicalism at the freep too... CU is generally a luke-warm version of the freep (I dare-say much more sensible, most of the time), but the freep is more comparable to DU than CU is, volume wise.... and the freep is a scary scary place.

Oh thank you, your smugness. We live for such benevolent judgements from one such as yourself. What a burden it must be, living exactly in the center of what is right and true and just and normal and having to constantly be the arbitrator of how close others are to your modern standards. What challenge is there for one who is squarely on the right side of every issue?

wilbur
06-01-2009, 02:52 PM
Oh thank you, your smugness. We live for such benevolent judgements from one such as yourself. What a burden it must be, living exactly in the center of what is right and true and just and normal and having to constantly be the arbitrator of how close others are to your modern standards. What challenge is there for one who is squarely on the right side of every issue?

I don't know what you are on about here... I actually said CU was much more sensible most of the time than the Freep. Perhaps your accusations of smugness should be more properly levied at those who claim to have "absolute truth".

FlaGator
06-01-2009, 03:02 PM
Laws are made by men and "justice" is dispensed on a daily basis throughout the realm of Man. Sometime it is right and sometimes it is wrong.

Justice was dispensed on Sunday when a killer of little children was held accountable for his crimes. Just because a ruling by a few members of some court did not make it a crime to kill little children does not make it right nor does it put it in favor with the Lord. Not the Lord that I know.

I am sure the Lord wept for all the children the man killed. Maybe it was God's will that somebody put a stop to it and to warn others not to do the same.

By the way, you and I may be in the same boat. Except for typing a few words on the Internet now and then I have really never did much to oppose the slaughter of the little children. How can I explain to the Lord on Judgment Day that I did nothing while the children were being killed?

The only other thing that I have done is that my wife and I did work at our church a few years ago to council unwed mothers not to get an abortion.

The doctor did a hideous crime against innocent children. He got his just reward. I don’t care if what he did was legal or not. The fact that it was legal is an indictment of how weak we all are to allow our government to sanction the slaughter of children. Shame on all of us!

I am sure that it was God's will that the murder commit his crime. I believe that God controls everythign. However, the murder gets no kudo's from God for doing it. For example, God used the pagan empire of Babylon to punish the Jews for idolatry but that didn't save Babylon from punishment. How about Joseph? He was sold in to slavery in Egypt and jailed for years. An evil act by perpetrated by his brothers but God used their evil for His benefit. That, however, doesn't mean that what they did was right.

The killer disobeyed God's command not to murder. There are no exemptions to this. The murderer disobeyed man's laws by murdering someone who was operating with in the frame work of the law. God want us to combat evil within the frame work he has given us. We are to do good and not to bring shame upon God. Utilmate justice belongs to God and so does ultimate punishment. Becoming as bad as the thing we fight against does not make us heros. It makes us them. It makes us the very thing that we fight against. In fact it makes us hypocrites.

You are right, the law is wrong and we are weak, but the weakness lies in those who adopt this law as right not in those who stand morally against it. But it is God's duty to punish the abortionist not mans. Perhaps that is what God has done but also maybe God is just tightening the noose around the neck of this country. No babies have been saved by this. The laws governing the actions of the prolife groups will now be tightened up. Fewer people will hear the truth. Some people who sat on the fence have been pushed in to the enemies camp and I don't think any fence sitters were persuaded to our side by this action. This society as become just a little less moral than it was on Saturday. There is no moral clarity in this. An immoral act to perpetrated on the immoral does not breed morality. So I ask you, other than one dead doctor what was accomplished?

gator
06-01-2009, 03:22 PM
So I ask you, other than one dead doctor what was accomplished?

I think three things were accomplished:

1. The killer can now answer to his conscience.

2. A strong warning was sent to other killer of children that they too may be held accountable for their crime.

3. The doctor will not be killing any other children. No telling how many lives will be saved.

I can understand that a righteous man like you would argue that we should obey the laws of the land. However, what I don’t understand is how you can argue so vehemently that we should be complacent to allow this to happen in our country. We allow the abortion clinics to be open and we allow doctors that kill children to walk the streets.

What have we become?

The guy that did the killing should be revered as other heroes that have killed to protect the innocent.

We are talking about children here. Children that art mostly killed only for the convenience of the mother. The doctor that performs that service is a murderer, whether the law allows it or not.

This is a war to save the children. In war people die.

FlaGator
06-01-2009, 04:16 PM
I think three things were accomplished:

1. The killer can now answer to his conscience.

2. A strong warning was sent to other killer of children that they too may be held accountable for their crime.

3. The doctor will not be killing any other children. No telling how many lives will be saved.

I can understand that a righteous man like you would argue that we should obey the laws of the land. However, what I don’t understand is how you can argue so vehemently that we should be complacent to allow this to happen in our country. We allow the abortion clinics to be open and we allow doctors that kill children to walk the streets.

What have we become?

The guy that did the killing should be revered as other heroes that have killed to protect the innocent.

We are talking about children here. Children that art mostly killed only for the convenience of the mother. The doctor that performs that service is a murderer, whether the law allows it or not.

This is a war to save the children. In war people die.

I wish I was a righteous man then perhaps I wouldn't feel as conflicted about this as I do, but I am humbled that you would use those words in reference to me. I never stated that we should be complacent; I just said that as Christians we should work within the frame work that God has given us. We can protest, we can elect officials who represent what is right and who have a solid moral foundation, inform and we can pray. I just don't think that we should kill. I don't think that we should become like the very thing we struggle against. Isn't this what the Jihadists are doing? They kill under some perverted notion that God wants them to do this and it an approved act. 9/11 transpired for the exact same reasons that this abortionist was murdered. I can't in all good consciousness call one act evil and the other act good. In all honesty, and maybe it is just me my friend, but I can't see much difference between the two actions.

I am as abhorred by the use of abortion as you are. I find it offensive to my core that babies are murdered for the convenience of the mother because of her (and his) lack of foresight to take measures to prevent the conception of the child. With that being said, even those people should have the opportunity to recognize their sin and repent and seek forgiveness. Even Dr. Tiller should have been left free to seek God's forgiveness because no matter what he has done, Dr Tiller was still a creation of God who could have asked God to forgive him. Now he will not get that chance because his life as been taken from him. Our zealousness to do something as denied God the chance to show the world His glory by forgiving a sinner. I am not comfortable with denying God what He most desires. When God made us in his image part of that image consists of the gift to forgive those who may not deserve it. I know that I don't deserve God's forgiveness but I'm so very glad that I have it.

OK, I guess I've spent enough time on my soapbox. I hope I haven't overstepped any bounds. I just wanted to share my vision of God and what I believe to be His view on this. You have allowed me that opportunity and I thank you.

Peace,
Gary

BadCat
06-01-2009, 04:21 PM
What have we become?

A nation of spineless twits who are more interested in American Idol than they are in the rape of the country, who are cowed into submission by disgusting and vocal minorities and led to believe the lies told by a culpable press.

That is what we have become.

Molon Labe
06-01-2009, 04:22 PM
Here's a question? Would any of you kill someone in self defense of someone else? Say your wife, child etc. I know I would.
What if we look at this as gator pointed out that children are indeed being killed everday.

I heard an interesting take last night that our court system routinely ignored the crime of slavery for 300 years. Would it be moral for a man to defend a slave being raped or beaten to death even though it was legal? Even if that defense lead to the death of the slave owner?

The person suggested the man was simply performing a late term abortion on the Doctor. As crass as that may be to some, it struck me as ironic.

wilbur
06-01-2009, 04:47 PM
Here's a question? Would any of you kill someone in self defense of someone else? Say your wife, child etc. I know I would.
What if we look at this as gator pointed out that children are indeed being killed everday.


Thats where the philosphy of a 'just war' comes in, or at least 'justified homicide'.

Those tempted to indulge in such notions (like those who find the killing "understandable", or in some sense 'just') need to ask themselves why on earth they should be so confident in their beliefs that they might even be justified in using deadly force (or even the force of law), when it cannot be reasonably demonstrated that alternative views to the "pro-life" philosophy are false.

FlaGator
06-01-2009, 05:38 PM
Here's a question? Would any of you kill someone in self defense of someone else? Say your wife, child etc. I know I would.
What if we look at this as gator pointed out that children are indeed being killed everday.

I heard an interesting take last night that our court system routinely ignored the crime of slavery for 300 years. Would it be moral for a man to defend a slave being raped or beaten to death even though it was legal? Even if that defense lead to the death of the slave owner?

The person suggested the man was simply performing a late term abortion on the Doctor. As crass as that may be to some, it struck me as ironic.

Florida law allows individuals who are armed and who have the proper carry licenses to use lethal force to defend themselves and others if they have a reasonable belief that they are or others are in danger. The law in Florida recognizes the right of individuals to "stand their ground" in defense of themselves and others. This is either in the home or in public. Since the law allows for self-defense and protection of others then I would not hesitate to use lethal force (if I deem it necessary). Scripture does not prevent me from doing this and neither does the law.

Now I must ask you to elaborate on the situation above before I can answer it. Will the death of the slave owner be my intention or would it have resulted as an accident? I would try to protect them (with the current state of my moral beliefs) if in defense the slave owner now attacked me then I would have to defend myself with lethal force if necessary. I would not, however, walk in to the situation with the intention of killing the slave owner.

gator
06-01-2009, 05:41 PM
Thats where the philosphy of a 'just war' comes in, or at least 'justified homicide'.

Those tempted to indulge in such notions (like those who find the killing "understandable", or in some sense 'just') need to ask themselves why on earth they should be so confident in their beliefs that they might even be justified in using deadly force (or even the force of law), when it cannot be reasonably demonstrated that alternative views to the "pro-life" philosophy are false.

The filthy Obama administration just dropped charges against the Black Panthers that intimidated voters at the polls. I guess he figured they really didn’t do much of a crime and besides, what they did was justified, right? Doesn’t being Black in America pretty well justifies doing anything you want?

If Obama can see to forgive his fellow Black men for preventing the people from voting then why can’t he pardon the killer for the act of protecting children? It seems like committing a crime to protect children from being murdered is more forgivable than committing a crime to make sure that nobody votes against Obama, don’t you think?

Constitutionally Speaking
06-01-2009, 06:07 PM
Thats where the philosphy of a 'just war' comes in, or at least 'justified homicide'.

Those tempted to indulge in such notions (like those who find the killing "understandable", or in some sense 'just') need to ask themselves why on earth they should be so confident in their beliefs that they might even be justified in using deadly force (or even the force of law), when it cannot be reasonably demonstrated that alternative views to the "pro-life" philosophy are false.


It CAN be reasonably demonstrated that the alternative to the pro-life philosophy is false. You just have to have a reasonable audience in the first place.

hazlnut
06-01-2009, 07:23 PM
Sara Palin's statement:


"I feel sorrow for the Tiller family. I respect the sanctity of life and the tragedy that took place today in Kansas clearly violates respect for life. This murder also damages the positive message of life, for the unborn, and for those living. Ask yourself, 'What will those who have not yet decided personally where they stand on this issue take away from today's event in Kansas?'

Regardless of my strong objection to Dr. Tiller's abortion practices, violence is never an answer in advancing the pro-life message."

Governor Sarah Palin


Let it be said, that on this day, June 1, 2009, I agree with something Sara Palin said and something Dick Cheney (http://www.conservativeunderground.com/forum505/showthread.php?t=14832) said. They have both spoken the truth on this day.--IMO.

Rockntractor
06-01-2009, 07:44 PM
Sara Palin's statement:




Let it be said, that on this day, June 1, 2009, I agree with something Sara Palin said and something Dick Cheney (http://www.conservativeunderground.com/forum505/showthread.php?t=14832) said. They have both spoken the truth on this day.--IMO.
Hallelujah! There is hope for hazle. An angel is singing in heaven.

Rockntractor
06-01-2009, 07:46 PM
Sara Palin's statement:




Let it be said, that on this day, June 1, 2009, I agree with something Sara Palin said and something Dick Cheney (http://www.conservativeunderground.com/forum505/showthread.php?t=14832) said. They have both spoken the truth on this day.--IMO.
Can I send you anything. A voters registration card or a Bible. I would be glad to help!

lacarnut
06-01-2009, 08:12 PM
Can I send you anything. A voters registration card or a Bible. I would be glad to help!

You are too generous. I do have some old golf medals and trophies I need to get rid of. I could send him one of those.:)

enslaved1
06-01-2009, 08:18 PM
Go camping for a few days and look what I miss.....

Tiller getting killed is the worst possible thing that can come to the pro-life movement out of the whole situation. 1) Now he is a martyr for the pro choice cause, B)instead of getting hauled in front of a court by a state attorney who isn't scared or ordered to not touch the man or the issue, 3) any celebrating or condoning of the murder just helps the moonbats paint their own colors over us

Did he deserve it? No doubt,but do we really want to get into discussions about what we all deserve, especially from a theological standpoint? Meeting our what is deserved is not the job of a lone nutjob (we're getting local reports about the man's mental state), nor should we be celebrating. My heart goes out to his family and friends, and to others who will feel the ripples of this act in ways we can't imagine.

hazlnut
06-01-2009, 08:51 PM
Can I send you anything. A voters registration card or a Bible. I would be glad to help!

I'm happy as a right of center independent.

And the KJV Bible we used at my daughter's first communion last week seems to be in good working order. But I'll let you know.;):)

BadCat
06-01-2009, 08:54 PM
I just heard that over his career, Tiller performed

OVER 60000 ABORTIONS

And by doing so, he made MILLIONS OF DOLLARS

He made Mengele look like a saint.

Shannon
06-01-2009, 08:55 PM
60,000 abortions and millions of dollars. I feel sick.

NJCardFan
06-01-2009, 08:56 PM
Here's a question? Would any of you kill someone in self defense of someone else? Say your wife, child etc. I know I would.
My training says that I can. However, I just can't randomly shoot at someone. There has to be an imminent threat of loss of life or serious bodily injury to me or someone else. And this is as a uniformed police officer.

BadCat
06-01-2009, 09:47 PM
Let's look at this conundrum.

Tiller killed about as many people as Josef Mengele did.
What Mengele did was legal in his country at the time.
What Mengele did was sanctioned by his government.

If a person could be sent back in time to shoot Mengele one week before he was sent to Auschwitz-Birkenau, should that person be sent?

What is the difference between Mengele and Tiller?

FlaGator
06-01-2009, 09:53 PM
Let's look at this conundrum.

Tiller killed about as many people as Josef Mengele did.
What Mengele did was legal in his country at the time.
What Mengele did was sanctioned by his government.

If a person could be sent back in time to shoot Mengele one week before he was sent to Auschwitz-Birkenau, should that person be sent?

What is the difference between Mengele and Tiller?

I would vote no because it would alter history and then I might not be here to tell you that I would vote no.

Shannon
06-01-2009, 09:55 PM
I would vote no because it would alter history and then I might not be here to tell you that I would vote no.

That's a bit selfish, isn't it?;)

MrsSmith
06-01-2009, 09:55 PM
I've heard reported that Tiller would have an associate who worked for him act as the second opinion. Hardly a independent diagnosis. Hasn't the state of Kansas found Tiller's practices to at least be suspect? I'm not sure I'd argue he was just an honest guy doing a tough job.
We have tried repeatedly to get him shut down legally, but those millions of dollars he "earned" went a long way into buying the courts and the favor of the governor. He bought his way out of every case, even the one that proved the "independent" doctor, required by Kansas law, worked for no one except him. She even made it clear on the stand that she would OK a late term abortion for ANY REASON, period...and he STILL won the case. He owned the Kansas judiciary.

Plus, his death didn't even put a dent in the murders. There is already a new "doctor" in his clinic, making sure that no babies survive today's appointments. :mad:

Lager
06-02-2009, 12:04 AM
Thats where the philosphy of a 'just war' comes in, or at least 'justified homicide'.

Those tempted to indulge in such notions (like those who find the killing "understandable", or in some sense 'just') need to ask themselves why on earth they should be so confident in their beliefs that they might even be justified in using deadly force (or even the force of law), when it cannot be reasonably demonstrated that alternative views to the "pro-life" philosophy are false.

Just curious if you break down everything in your view of life into two opposing sides that are totally equal, with none having no more moral weight than the other. To maintain an absolute neutrality on everything must take a lot of the spice out of one's existence. If someone at a movie theater is talking on a cell phone, instead of considering it rude, do you just attribute it to someone with an alternative view to the "pro-manners" philosophy?

Rockntractor
06-02-2009, 12:09 AM
Just curious if you break down everything in your view of life into two opposing sides that are totally equal, with none having no more moral weight than the other. To maintain an absolute neutrality on everything must take a lot of the spice out of one's existence. If someone at a movie theater is talking on a cell phone, instead of considering it rude, do you just attribute it to someone with an alternative view to the "pro-manners" philosophy?
http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv230/upyourstruly/roadkill.jpg?t=1243915657


If you spend to much time in the middle of the road you'll get run over!

Japandroid
06-02-2009, 03:28 AM
Guns and religion ladies and gentlemen... guns and religion.

lacarnut
06-02-2009, 06:20 AM
Guns and religion ladies and gentlemen... guns and religion.

Any sorry SOB that performs late term abortions is in need of some serious religion. Facing his maker is going to be a bitch for him.

Lars1701a
06-02-2009, 10:33 AM
Guns and religion ladies and gentlemen... guns and religion.

IMHO he deserved death. You deserve a good ass beating.

Rebel Yell
06-02-2009, 10:38 AM
Guns and religion ladies and gentlemen... guns and religion.

Old people and cars, what's your point?

Rockntractor
06-02-2009, 10:41 AM
IMHO he deserved death. You deserve a good ass beating.
Let's just waterboard him!

BadCat
06-02-2009, 10:46 AM
Guns and religion ladies and gentlemen... guns and religion.

Ok Japassdroid, here's a bet for you.

When the people who have the guns come after your communist ass, I bet you get religion very quickly.

wilbur
06-02-2009, 12:25 PM
Just curious if you break down everything in your view of life into two opposing sides that are totally equal, with none having no more moral weight than the other. To maintain an absolute neutrality on everything must take a lot of the spice out of one's existence. If someone at a movie theater is talking on a cell phone, instead of considering it rude, do you just attribute it to someone with an alternative view to the "pro-manners" philosophy?

I don't maintain absolute neutrality on much of anything... I'm perfectly fine with asserting that certain things, including beliefs that might govern our actions, are better or worse than others.... I can certainly say talking on a cellphone in a movie theater is rude... or even worse... bringing infants and toddlers to R-rated thriller movies, who are certain to scream and cry at the first startling scene (now there's a situation where I might advocate some good ol vigilante justice).

But there is a problem when people start claiming their purely aesthetic preferences, which cannot be supported empirically at all, are objective fact... such as situations above... or the preference to believe that 'abortion is equivalent to murder', or 'moral concern begins at conception'. And it becomes an even bigger problem, when they claim that their own aesthetic preferences here are so indisputably objectively true, that violence is justified to enforce them.

Lager
06-02-2009, 01:15 PM
The trouble is, a lot of what society might consider positive character traits can't always be supported empiraclly. We value honesty, for example, but there might be a logical argument that being able to lie -- and doing it well -- might actually be an advantage for an individual.

hazlnut
06-02-2009, 01:25 PM
Guns and religion ladies and gentlemen... guns and religion.

I think that's a little unfair.

Guns, maybe. We need to make sure mentally unstable individuals don't posses firearms. Roeder was arrested in 1996 for possession of bomb making materials. Was the firearm he used legal? If it was, I question the law that allowed him to own that gun.

Religion. -- Absolutely not. Scott Roeder's murderous act had nothing to do with God as I understand Him. It was the result of one man's self-will run riot. Wrath/rage is a deadly sin and Scott Roeder was obviously consumed by it. Had he gotten more religion, more spiritual guidance, this never would have happened.

noonwitch
06-02-2009, 01:46 PM
I don't have much to say on this, and I'm not going to get into any arguments over the abortion issue itself. No one here is going to change my mind, and I'm not going to change theirs.

I don't blame conservatives for being paranoid about the left using this as an excuse to go after legitimate, non-violent anti abortion protestors, though. I don't think any government agency is going to chase after Right To Life or Catholics for Life, but some of the less-established groups should be wary, especially if they have any connections to the loons who run the Nuremburg Files website or to the militia movement. That's who the government will be focusing on.


Being connected to the militia movement will make the police think twice about dealing peaceably with you. They will then get in an armed standoff with you so that they have an excuse to burn your house down, take your property and kill everyone they can. It doesn't matter if you are anti-abortion or pro-marijuana.

AmPat
06-03-2009, 09:12 AM
I think that's a little unfair.

Guns, maybe. We need to make sure mentally unstable individuals don't posses firearms. Roeder was arrested in 1996 for possession of bomb making materials. Was the firearm he used legal? If it was, I question the law that allowed him to own that gun.

Religion. -- Absolutely not. Scott Roeder's murderous act had nothing to do with God as I understand Him. It was the result of one man's self-will run riot. Wrath/rage is a deadly sin and Scott Roeder was obviously consumed by it. Had he gotten more religion, more spiritual guidance, this never would have happened.

Well said.

thinker
06-03-2009, 10:45 AM
Oh, gator. Nice to see the vitriol is still as high-powered as it ever was.

quick note to those of you who don't know me: I'm against abortion.

That said, I can do nothing but shake my head every time I watch the liberal/conservative debate on on the death penalty and abortion. Both are wrong, and what this man's killer did was no more justified than what that doctor practiced for a living; and no, they're not comparable on a scale. Yes, this doctor performed hundreds of abortions, and yes, this is one act of murder against him.

Matthew 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

John 2:10 He who says he is in the light and hates his brother is in the darkness still. (one of my favorite verses).

Hate the sin, not the sinner. Killing an abortion doctor is just one more sin, and it does nothing to make it right.