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patriot45
06-01-2009, 09:55 AM
Doug Giles. (http://townhall.com/columnists/DougGiles/2009/05/30/wwjt_who_would_jesus_torture?page=full&comments=true)

Always witty and to the point!


A Christian radio show host asked me the other day how I could, as a believer, be cool with waterboarding terrorists for intel crucial to our national securityóor, as I like to call it, the implementation of the Irrigation for Information Act. Irrigation sounds so much more pleasant than torture, oui? Oui.

I told my inquiring host that as a patriotic white male Christian redneck, as far as I can deduce from the holy text, Jesus and the balance of Scripture seem to be okay with dunking Achmed if said butt munch has the 411 regarding the 10/20 of the next mass slaughter of innocent Americans. Call me crazy. Iím well aware, however, that I could be committing an exegetical error given the fact that Iím white and male and all. This is my cross.

Please note: If Christ wasnít cool with irrigating irate Islamicists for facts, I must admit, I would still have to green light our boys getting data from enemy combatants 007 style. Stick a fire hose up their tailpipe and turn it on full blast. I donít care. Iím not as holy as most of you super saints or as evolved as some of you progressive atheists purport to be. Security beats spirituality in this scenario, as far as Iím concerned.

Now, as you can imagine, the holier-than-I show host was a tad bit taken aback by my confidence and giddiness over teaching captured terrorists how to snorkel minus the snorkeling gear if it would keep our country safe. He saw that as somehow incongruent with the Clay Aikenization of the sassy Christ a stack of Americans now worship. He then asked me, in kind of a tsk-tsk tone, for a proof text or two from Jesusí lips and la Biblia that would come even close to him wishing or implementing ill on those who would harm or kill the innocent. This was like taking candy from a baby for me.

Howís this for starters, Slappy? In John 2:12-17 Jesus whipped religious hacks who were turning Godís temple into a Costco for religious crap. According to San Juanís account, it was the second thing Jesus did after John baptized him in the river Jordan. The first thing he did was turn water into wine. Thatís two things lame evangelicals canít imagine Jesus doing: making wine or using a whip, but I digress.

Yep, Jesus opened up a can of whup ass on charlatans in the temple. He didnít pray for them or write them an angry email with the caps lock on or call them ďman-made religious disastersĒ that we need to apologize to for forcing them to sell overpriced spiritual curios. Nope, he methodically sat down, got ticked, made a whip and cleared the punks.

Having that snapshot of Christ violently snapping on the 1st century televangelists in the temple, Iím a thinkiní that if he got that riled up over overpriced Precious Moments figurines, personally whipped the culprits for it and then ransacked their product display tables, more than likely he would be cool with submerging a couple of murderous morons who have information regarding the pending liquidation of thousands of innocent civilians. (And by the way, Iíll take water in the face over a whip to the back any day of the week.)


Continued (http://townhall.com/columnists/DougGiles/2009/05/30/wwjt_who_would_jesus_torture?page=2)

FlaGator
06-01-2009, 10:41 AM
I disagree with every point that Doug Giles made concerning Jesus and his feelings on torture and I would point him to the Sermon on the Mount to get a more accurate picture of how Jesus believes Christians should handle this issue. As for the whipping of the sellers in the temple, I would like to point out that Jesus is God who knew the hearts of men beyond all doubt and did not need to use torture to get information. To say that such behavior is acceptable because Jesus did it is to equate oneself with God and be capable of perfect justice and thus able to dole out a punishment that fits the crime. Does the commentator realize that innocent people have to go through this as well? People who do not have the information they are looking for? If the commentator's mother was undergoing this in order for interrogators to find his location but his mother didn't know where he was, I wonder if Mr. Giles would still condone this?

patriot45
06-01-2009, 11:00 AM
I think this would have to apply to what you said. And I guess if he knew his mother was a terrorist he would condone it.


Please note: If Christ wasn’t cool with irrigating irate Islamicists for facts, I must admit, I would still have to green light our boys getting data from enemy combatants 007 style. Stick a fire hose up their tailpipe and turn it on full blast. I don’t care. I’m not as holy as most of you super saints or as evolved as some of you progressive atheists purport to be. Security beats spirituality in this scenario, as far as I’m concerned.

Rebel Yell
06-01-2009, 11:07 AM
I disagree with every point that Doug Giles made concerning Jesus and his feelings on torture and I would point him to the Sermon on the Mount to get a more accurate picture of how Jesus believes Christians should handle this issue. As for the whipping of the sellers in the temple, I would like to point out that Jesus is God who knew the hearts of men beyond all doubt and did not need to use torture to get information. To say that such behavior is acceptable because Jesus did it is to equate oneself with God and be capable of perfect justice and thus able to dole out a punishment that fits the crime. Does the commentator realize that innocent people have to go through this as well? People who do not have the information they are looking for? If the commentator's mother was undergoing this in order for interrogators to find his location but his mother didn't know where he was, I wonder if Mr. Giles would still condone this?

I don't really disagree with what you're saying, but if we fought this war the way God commanded his armies to fight there would be a living terrorist left to torture. Or his wife, children, or livestock. Personally, I thought from the beginning if they wanted a holy wor, we shoud have given them one. Kill every living thing in Iraq and Afganistan, turn the desert to glass, and come home.

FlaGator
06-01-2009, 11:19 AM
I don't really disagree with what you're saying, but if we fought this war the way God commanded his armies to fight there would be a living terrorist left to torture. Or his wife, children, or livestock. Personally, I thought from the beginning if they wanted a holy wor, we shoud have given them one. Kill every living thing in Iraq and Afganistan, turn the desert to glass, and come home.

Please understand this. I am not by my comments stating that I am against using torture to gain information. I am against the comments that Jesus would condone it. I am against Jesus being used to justify any doctrine (moral or social) that someone want's to put some theological weight behind or to attempt to excuse human behavior merely because God had a physical body for a while. If Doug Giles wants to justify torture then leave Jesus out of it. It is not a proper comparison. Justify the action on human grounds.

Rebel Yell
06-01-2009, 11:20 AM
Please understand this. I am not by my comments stating that I am against using torture to gain information. I am against the comments that Jesus would condone it. I am against Jesus being used to justify any doctrine (moral or social) that someone want's to put some theological weight behind or to attempt to excuse human behavior merely because God had a physical body for a while. If Doug Giles wants to justify torture then leave Jesus out of it. It is not a proper comparison. Justify the action on human grounds.

And on those grounds, I agree with you whole heartedly.

FlaGator
06-01-2009, 11:28 AM
I think this would have to apply to what you said. And I guess if he knew his mother was a terrorist he would condone it.


Please note: If Christ wasn’t cool with irrigating irate Islamicists for facts, I must admit, I would still have to green light our boys getting data from enemy combatants 007 style. Stick a fire hose up their tailpipe and turn it on full blast. I don’t care. I’m not as holy as most of you super saints or as evolved as some of you progressive atheists purport to be. Security beats spirituality in this scenario, as far as I’m concerned.

The highlighted comments are merely an attempt to justify his discussion to bring God and Jesus in to this. As I stated in the previous post, I have no issues with the use of torture to gain information from terrorists. I do have issues with using Jesus as some sort of defacto approval for any action someone wants to condone. It is a bad analogy because Jesus doesn't need torture to get information so how can a comparison be drawn? Also Christ tells Christians that they are expected to behave differently. The whole love you enemy and pray from him thing doesn't not have an exception for terrorists and other evil individuals and groups. His comments on this, in my opinion, apply only to Christians and not to the world at large. Someone who is not in communion with the Lord does not have the same restrictions applied to their behavior as a believer does.

I hope that cleared things up a bit.

Sorry, but I accidentally edited your post instead of quoting it. I believe I restored back to the way it was but you may want to review it and make sure I didn't add something by accident.

Odysseus
06-01-2009, 11:46 AM
One of the benefits of Judaism is not having to worry about what Jesus would do. Our example is Moses. So, asking myself, what would Moses do, I arrive at the edge of the Red Sea, where Pharoah's army was waterboarded without the boards (I guess you could say that they were just watered, a lot). No ethical dilemma there. Surf's up! :D

Molon Labe
06-01-2009, 11:51 AM
I disagree with every point that Doug Giles made concerning Jesus and his feelings on torture and I would point him to the Sermon on the Mount to get a more accurate picture of how Jesus believes Christians should handle this issue. As for the whipping of the sellers in the temple, I would like to point out that Jesus is God who knew the hearts of men beyond all doubt and did not need to use torture to get information. To say that such behavior is acceptable because Jesus did it is to equate oneself with God and be capable of perfect justice and thus able to dole out a punishment that fits the crime. Does the commentator realize that innocent people have to go through this as well? People who do not have the information they are looking for? If the commentator's mother was undergoing this in order for interrogators to find his location but his mother didn't know where he was, I wonder if Mr. Giles would still condone this?

Me too. I have a big problem equating the Temple "Den of thieves" text with suggesting Jesus being Okee Dokee with toruture. He's been right on before in some articles on raising kids, but he's off his nut here.