PDA

View Full Version : Now the debris is NOT from the Air France plane that disappeared



stsinner
06-05-2009, 05:04 PM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1190760/Debris-Atlantic-NOT-Air-France-jet-say-red-faced-investigators.html

thinker
06-05-2009, 11:58 PM
WTG Brazilian authorities. There are no A's for efforts on stuff like this...if you can't handle it, ask for help! This is not the time nor the place to be seen to be above needing help. You have citizenry to respond to.

megimoo
06-06-2009, 12:38 AM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1190760/Debris-Atlantic-NOT-Air-France-jet-say-red-faced-investigators.html
If the aircraft exploded/imploded at thirty seven thousand feet while doing .85 mach there wouldn't be much left to float .

megimoo
06-06-2009, 01:04 AM
Similar flights deepen Air France 447 mystery

At least 12 flights traveled from Brazil to Europe around same time as 447

None of the other flights reported bad weather or other problems
Aviation experts say weather alone would not normally cause a crash
They also say weather can change quickly and vary over short distances


(CNN) -- At least 12 airplanes shared the trans-Atlantic sky with doomed Air France Flight 447, but none reported any problems, deepening the mystery surrounding the cause of the plane's disappearance.


Image released by the Brazilian Air Force shows oil slicks in the water near a debris site.

Airlines confirmed that at least a dozen aircraft departed roughly at the same time and traversed approximately the same route, but did not report problematic weather conditions. This has led some aviation experts to suggest that technical problems on the airplane might be the main cause of the crash, though they may have combined with weather conditions to create serious problems.

The new information raises more questions than answers about Air France 447, believed to have plunged into the Atlantic Ocean somewhere between the coasts of Brazil and West Africa on May 31, presumably killing all 228 aboard. The plane's computer system reported a series of technical problems about four hours after takeoff and immediately after entering a large storm system a few hundred miles from the far eastern

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/06/05/france.plane.investigation/

thinker
06-06-2009, 01:34 AM
5 bucks says lightning strike on the cockpit. One of the very few things that would cause rapid descent, no mayday, and no deceleration.

megimoo
06-06-2009, 02:18 AM
5 bucks says lightning strike on the cockpit. One of the very few things that would cause rapid descent, no mayday, and no deceleration.
Try this one .
http://www.planebuzz.com/2009/04/atlantic_southeast_airlines_li.html
............................

Planes are really, really REALLY strong. Here's everyone's favorite video showing just how strong wings are:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBUCyRgtmv0&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Faviationblog%2Edallasnews%2Ecom% 2Farchives%2F2009%2F06%2Fmystery%2Dover%2Dthe%2Din tertropical%2Ehtml&feature=player_embedded
.................................
Lightning doesn't really affect planes all that much - the strikes are designed to flow right through the plane and not affect them so much, especially their electronics. All we know was that the Air France aircraft sent a signal alerting that its electrical systems weren't working. The Airbus has a little turbine fan that drops from the bottom of the plane to generate emergency power if there's a power failure.

The Intertropical Convergence Zone is a tough place for aircraft, but modern radar and avoidance tactics should allow the plane to dodge anything too terrible. There's no hurricane or tropical storm activity on the radar out there that suggests a monster storm of some type.

Wild, speculative theories after the click:

1. Lightning strike hits cockpit, somehow injures or kills pilots, and they can't even get a mayday off before hitting water.

2. Lightning strike somehow defeats plane's built-in systems, ignites fuel tanks. Very, very unlikely, but I guess in theory it might have happened.

3. Meteor strike. Really, really, REALLY unlikely, but if you get anything moving that quickly that hits a plane, it's a very bad outcome at any altitude. It would explain the radio silence.

4. Explosive cargo?. Terrorism doesn't seem likely here - France and Brazil aren't exactly at the forefront of things. Maybe there were special passengers on board - wire reports are saying the chairman of a large German steelmaker was on the plane.

Anyone else out there who reads us have a theory? (please avoid any "Lost"-related theories - please respect the victims and their families here) This is a very tested and true aircraft with engines that are very reliable and it's just literally falling off the radar screen. The sad truth is that recovering the plane wreckage and black boxes could take months, and then perhaps not enlighten too much. What in the world happened last night?

thinker
06-06-2009, 03:12 AM
Flew Cessna 210s for a while (N30285 was the tail number, dad sold the plane off when I went to college). Trust me, any pilot worth sh*t is scared to death of a lightning strike. It's a very nice theory to say that a lightning strike is no big deal - but an engine hit, a direct cockpit hit, or a general failure in the avionics could easily do what happened here.

The NTSB report, according to the comment from your post on the plane with the "lightning strike", says that it was an internal fire while the plane was grounded, no passengers on board.

Also, interestingly, the FAA released this AD (Airworthiness Directive, for those unfamiliar with aviation lingo) regarding Airbus A300-340s (i.e., problems that would be catastrophic midflight):

http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2008/pdf/E8-15708.pdf

Which states, in relevant part:


We are adopting a new airworthiness directive (AD) for the products listed above. This AD results from mandatory continuing airworthiness information (MCAI) originated by an aviation authority of another country to identify and correct an unsafe condition on an aviation product. The MCAI describes the unsafe condition as: During fatigue tests (EF3) on the A340–600, multiple damage were found in the upper side shell structure at skin and frame (FR) 84 & 85 interface (note from thinker: this is the section immediately to the rear of the cockpit, according to relevant anatomical blueprints), from stringer 6 to 15 LH/RH. This damage occurred between 58,341 and 72,891 simulated Flight Cycles (FC). Due to the higher Design Service Goal and different design (e.g. skin thickness) for A330–200 and A340–300 aircraft series, the damage assessment concluded on [a] potential impact on these aircraft series.
* * * * *
The unsafe condition is loss of integrity of the upper shell structure of the fuselage. We are issuing this AD to require actions to correct the unsafe condition on these products.


Smells to me like the same kind of situation that happened to the airliner over New Jersey that had the double bird strike, without the happy ending. Major confluence of rare occurences - loss of hull integrity + very bad weather, possibly including a lightning strike. VERY few other things explain no mayday call coupled with no deceleration.

megimoo
06-06-2009, 12:37 PM
Flew Cessna 210s for a while (N30285 was the tail number, dad sold the plane off when I went to college). Trust me, any pilot worth sh*t is scared to death of a lightning strike. It's a very nice theory to say that a lightning strike is no big deal - but an engine hit, a direct cockpit hit, or a general failure in the avionics could easily do what happened here.

The NTSB report, according to the comment from your post on the plane with the "lightning strike", says that it was an internal fire while the plane was grounded, no passengers on board.

Also, interestingly, the FAA released this AD (Airworthiness Directive, for those unfamiliar with aviation lingo) regarding Airbus A300-340s (i.e., problems that would be catastrophic midflight):

http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2008/pdf/E8-15708.pdf

Which states, in relevant part:



Smells to me like the same kind of situation that happened to the airliner over New Jersey that had the double bird strike, without the happy ending. Major confluence of rare occurences - loss of hull integrity + very bad weather, possibly including a lightning strike. VERY few other things explain no mayday call coupled with no deceleration.With twelve aircraft all flying in approximately the same piece of sky would seem to rule out the weather or extreme turbulence but perhaps it could be a very localized condition .Aircraft handle extremes of turbulence all of the time without loss of aircraft,again look at Lockheed Electra retired commercial aircraft as hurricane hunters for an example of extremes of airframe stress .At any rate the explosive decompression of a piece of C4 plastic fits rather well don't you think ?

As for lightning strikes :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=036hpBvjoQw
...........................
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eX6Xk0DRVvE
.................................
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlVdb1U6qjw&NR=1
................................
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVnOxOwa2L8&feature=related
................................
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbSLXzcUpMQ&feature=related
...........................................
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4I-vckU3lmk&NR=1

thinker
06-06-2009, 12:44 PM
explosive decompression of a piece of C4 plastic fits rather well don't you think ?

Doesn't explain the no mayday unless it was in the cockpit, so unless the theoretical terroist had access to the cockpit (highly unlikely, given current air security protocols), it doesn't fit. There were cumulonimbus cloud formations reported in the area, which are known to have internalized thunderstorms.

megimoo
06-06-2009, 01:38 PM
Doesn't explain the no mayday unless it was in the cockpit, so unless the theoretical terroist had access to the cockpit (highly unlikely, given current air security protocols), it doesn't fit. There were cumulonimbus cloud formations reported in the area, which are known to have internalized thunderstorms.Security protocol in Recife, Brazil :Airport Security
While the airport is patrolled by guards and has adequate lighting and perimeter fencing, security lapses occur frequently. Security guards have been known to accept bribes from criminals.
http://www.professionaltravelguide.com/Flight-Centre/Airports/Recife-Brazil/Guararapes-Intl
.............................

Did you happen to examine those lightning strike video's ? Or Am i just wasting my time explaining facts to a stone headed dope ?

Do you have any concept of how powerful an explosion is on an an aircraft with the pressure differentials involved ?Even a small explosion that breaches the thin skin will cause the airframe skin to disintegrate and the force of air flow will strip the skin off in short order.

At that speed of well over five hundred mph and thirty seven thousand feet (over 7.0 miles) altitude the outside temperature is about seventy below zero and combined with the force of the wind all would be dead with frozen, ruptured lungs in short order ..

thinker
06-06-2009, 02:33 PM
Considering you edited them in after I posted, that's a rather pathetic comment.

Poste edited by megimoo at 12:58 p.m.

Last post by thinker at 12:44 p.m.

You're pretty sad, you know that?

megimoo
06-06-2009, 02:41 PM
Considering you edited them in after I posted, that's a rather pathetic comment.

Poste edited by megimoo at 12:58 p.m.

Last post by thinker at 12:44 p.m.

You're pretty sad, you know that?Grow up !

thinker
06-06-2009, 02:45 PM
And furthermore, of the six videos you posted, 4 of them are body strikes, 1 of them is a video that *may* have been a lightning strike, but it's 100% impossible to tell where, considering the video is shot from the interior of the cockpit and slows to around 5 frames per second during the relevant portion. The final video is a fraps simulation and has NOTHING to do with lightning strikes. You're a failure as a poster.

The professional guide you posted is interesting, and has merit as a possibility. It still proves nothing, and only lends weight to the scenario you suggest, rather than proving it to the point where you can reliably spout crap like you're currently spewing.

Nice job ignoring the AD I posted, by the way, BEFORE you responded. Since me ignoring things that haven't even been posted yet counts in your mind as being a "dope", does that make you worse since you can't even respond to things that have already been posted (when you can actually see them, as opposed to having to have mindreading skills to not qualify as a dope?)

I'm not discounting sabotage - I've just seen zero evidence, and none of your googlefu and postedit skills can produce any. Only the Brazilian/French authorities will be able to produce anything of an actual evidentary standard, and that looks rather unlikely at this point.

thinker
06-06-2009, 02:47 PM
Grow up !

Get a life and learn to do something other than spam. You're a broken record in less than 40 posts. It's a good thing your bank account isn't as limited as your vocabulary - you'd be on the street with no internet access somewhere, and I have a feeling that could cause you to have some serious withdrawal issues.

megimoo
06-06-2009, 09:03 PM
Considering you edited them in after I posted, that's a rather pathetic comment.

Poste edited by megimoo at 12:58 p.m.

Last post by thinker at 12:44 p.m.

You're pretty sad, you know that?
It was an attempt to clarify the post for you .I don't know how else to explain it to you other than videos and that doesn't seem to help much .If the lightning flash strikes the aircraft at any point it flows through the entire airframe and in most cases it resets all of the on-board systems.As I mentioned before the electrical systems are all redundant that means there are more than one system for each function .Got It ? This is a waste of time so forget the whole thing ,it's not worth the effort !!.

thinker
06-06-2009, 09:12 PM
Did you happen to examine those lightning strike video's ? Or Am i just wasting my time explaining facts to a stone headed dope ?

That's a pretty hostile method of "clarifying" something before the other person even posts again.

1/10 for effort. I'm fully aware that all commerical airliners have redundancies, circuit breakers, cold start generators, and everything else you mention. But a full on lighting strike to the cockpit is different from a wing or body strike, period.

No system is perfect and no failsafe works every time. Until more evidence comes to light (if it ever does), it's pretty pointless to bash anyone for any plausible theory. You really should try working on your communication abilities (note: these are different from your ability to punch the "post reply" button and unload a new chunk of spam).