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MrsSmith
06-04-2009, 09:35 PM
You need to go to the web page and read entire article.

I knew Jesus had siblings, my question was about Joseph being much older - something never mentioned in the Bible, and having children from a previous marriage, also something I've never seen mentioned. I wondered if FlaGator had actual Scripture references.

Rockntractor
06-04-2009, 09:56 PM
I knew Jesus had siblings, my question was about Joseph being much older - something never mentioned in the Bible, and having children from a previous marriage, also something I've never seen mentioned. I wondered if FlaGator had actual Scripture references.
I don't think he does. There have been a lot of assumptions made about that in theological circles for years. I personaly have never put to much weight in those theories. I guess it doesn't really matter anyway. I am self taught so don't put to much weight in what I say. I am not qualified to critique anyone.

MrsSmith
06-04-2009, 10:08 PM
I don't think he does. There have been a lot of assumptions made about that in theological circles for years. I personaly have never put to much weight in those theories. I guess it doesn't really matter anyway. I am self taught so don't put to much weight in what I say. I am not qualified to critique anyone.Well, we'll see if he does. :)

FlaGator
06-05-2009, 08:08 AM
The Gospel says nothing on the age of Joseph other to imply that he had children before Jesus was born. It was common in Hebrew custom for men to marry only after they established themselves financially. For a carpenter this might take a while. Matthew 13:55 references Jesus having 4 brothers and some sisters. Some or all of these must have been prior to Jesus' birth. There are some of the Apocryphal gospels that mention Jesus having 6 siblins, 4 brothers and 2 sisters. I believe in the Protoevangelium (an Apocryphal Book) it states that Joseph was 49 when he was married to Mary. He was married at 40 to another woman, they had 6 children and then she died. One year later Joseph married Mary.

I have to take the Apocryphal gospels with a grain of salt, but I don't see any obvious reason to doubt the above account in that it does not violate any Hebrew customs nor were these relationships looked down on in other cultures of the time. I thought that Joseph would have been maybe 10 years younger than this, but the ages cited are within the realm of possibility.

MrsSmith
06-05-2009, 06:31 PM
The Gospel says nothing on the age of Joseph other to imply that he had children before Jesus was born. It was common in Hebrew custom for men to marry only after they established themselves financially. For a carpenter this might take a while. Matthew 13:55 references Jesus having 4 brothers and some sisters. Some or all of these must have been prior to Jesus' birth. There are some of the Apocryphal gospels that mention Jesus having 6 siblins, 4 brothers and 2 sisters. I believe in the Protoevangelium (an Apocryphal Book) it states that Joseph was 49 when he was married to Mary. He was married at 40 to another woman, they had 6 children and then she died. One year later Joseph married Mary.

I have to take the Apocryphal gospels with a grain of salt, but I don't see any obvious reason to doubt the above account in that it does not violate any Hebrew customs nor were these relationships looked down on in other cultures of the time. I thought that Joseph would have been maybe 10 years younger than this, but the ages cited are within the realm of possibility.

Exactly WHY would some or all of these have to be born before Jesus? :confused: Scripture mentions only Mary and Joseph going to Bethlehem; only Mary, Joseph and Jesus going to Egypt. Unless you just assume that Joseph abandoned his older children, it seems most possible that Jesus' siblings were all born after Him, to Mary and Joseph.

FlaGator
06-06-2009, 12:24 AM
Exactly WHY would some or all of these have to be born before Jesus? :confused: Scripture mentions only Mary and Joseph going to Bethlehem; only Mary, Joseph and Jesus going to Egypt. Unless you just assume that Joseph abandoned his older children, it seems most possible that Jesus' siblings were all born after Him, to Mary and Joseph.

Try that theory on a Catholic. :-)

thinker
06-06-2009, 12:34 AM
Try that theory on a Catholic. :-)

I'll step halfway in the pond here and say that of the half dozen priests I've had theological discussions and classes with/from, the three that even deign to discuss the subject all are of the opinion that they were from a prior marriage. The other three wouldn't even discuss the apocryphal literature.

Yes, I am Catholic. Please don't make me regret posting this.

Rockntractor
06-06-2009, 12:44 AM
I'll step halfway in the pond here and say that of the half dozen priests I've had theological discussions and classes with/from, the three that even deign to discuss the subject all are of the opinion that they were from a prior marriage. The other three wouldn't even discuss the apocryphal literature.

Yes, I am Catholic. Please don't make me regret posting this.
I have catholic relatives. To me there is a lot of good in the catholic church. I just can't get past the doctrine of Mary( St. Thomas Aquinas) and also the hot waiting room before you get to heaven.

thinker
06-06-2009, 12:47 AM
I have catholic relatives. To me there is a lot of good in the catholic church. I just can't get past the doctrine of Mary( St. Thomas Aquinas) and also the hot waiting room before you get to heaven.

There's a lot of different interpretations of purgatory. I know I for one am headed there if I even have a shot at the pearly gates. Mary is *very* misinterpreted - trust me, my wife was a Southern Baptist, and her entire family still is. Not to mention that I lived in the backyard of the capital of the bible belt for years.

Rockntractor
06-06-2009, 12:52 AM
There's a lot of different interpretations of purgatory. I know I for one am headed there if I even have a shot at the pearly gates. Mary is *very* misinterpreted - trust me, my wife was a Southern Baptist, and her entire family still is. Not to mention that I lived in the backyard of the capital of the bible belt for years.
I'm in the tulsa area if that is where you are talking about. It is the charismatic capital of the world.

thinker
06-06-2009, 01:23 AM
I'm in the tulsa area if that is where you are talking about. It is the charismatic capital of the world.

Try within 20 miles of Bob Jones University and right on top of the former President of the SBA's church (Greenville, South Carolina!). Lots of very, very, VERY seriously religious people.

Rockntractor
06-06-2009, 01:27 AM
Try within 20 miles of Bob Jones University and right on top of the former President of the SBA's church (Greenville, South Carolina!). Lots of very, very, VERY seriously religious people.
You have those snake charmers out that way don't you?

thinker
06-06-2009, 01:30 AM
That's more south tennessee/northwestern corner of north carolina (Appalachian Foothills). We have the very serious, did not allow handholding on BJU campus, would not allow mixed race relationships, have the security cameras turned in charmers.

megimoo
06-06-2009, 02:02 AM
Exactly WHY would some or all of these have to be born before Jesus? :confused: Scripture mentions only Mary and Joseph going to Bethlehem; only Mary, Joseph and Jesus going to Egypt. Unless you just assume that Joseph abandoned his older children, it seems most possible that Jesus' siblings were all born after Him, to Mary and Joseph.

St Joseph wasn't actually Jesus father but his provider and protector on earth .There isn't any mention of Joseph and the blessed mother having children and any reference to the brothers of Jesus is vague at best .

There many spurious writings from that period about Jesus and his supposed exploits that aren't part of the church cannon having been excluded by the early church doctors as unsubstantiated and fictitious .

Scripture tells us that St Joseph was betrothed to Mary a virgin and when he found that she was with child was about to dissolve the marrage contract but was unwilling to put her to shame and at danger.Scripture again tells us that in a dream St Joseph was assured by an angel that the child the Blessed Virgin was carrying was of GOD .There is no mention when St Joseph died but he was alive when Jesus was found in the temple when he was about twelve .

It seems reasonable to expect that if St.Joseph died during Jesus ministry he would have cut short his travels and returned to bury him but there isn't any mention of this .It seems reasonable to conclude that St Joseph died sometime before Jesus began his public life as Savior and that his mother as a widow followed him during all of his ministry as we know she did !
...............................
Very little other information on Joseph is given in the Gospels, in which he never speaks. He is mentioned in the Gospels as present on the visit to Jerusalem when Jesus was 12, but no mention can clearly be placed later than that one.
....................................
The final compilation of the new Testament was done at the Third Council of Carthage (A.D. 397).And states :

It was also determined that besides the Canonical Scriptures nothing be read in the Church under the title of divine Scriptures.
The Canonical Scriptures are these:
Genesis,
Exodus,
Leviticus,
Numbers,
Deuteronomy,
Joshua the son of Nun,
Judges,
Ruth,
four books of Kings,
3 two books of Paraleipomena,
4 Job,
the Psalter,
five books of Solomon,
5 the books of the twelve prophets,
Isaiah,
Jeremiah,
Ezechiel,
Daniel,
Tobit,
Judith,
Esther,
two books of Esdras,
6 two books of the Maccabees.
....................
Of the New Testament:
four books of the Gospels,
one book of the Acts of the Apostles,
thirteen Epistles of the Apostle Paul,
one epistle of the same [writer] to the Hebrews,
two Epistles of the Apostle Peter,
three of John,
one of James,
one of Jude,
one book of the Apocalypse of John.

Let this be made known also to our brother and fellow-priest Boniface, or to other bishops of those parts, for the purpose of confirming that Canon.

because we have received from our fathers that those books must be read in the Church. Let it also be allowed that the Passions of Martyrs be read when their festivals are kept.

MrsSmith
06-06-2009, 09:04 AM
Try that theory on a Catholic. :-)

OK, so it's based on the tradition that Mary stayed a virgin...not on Scripture. :)

FlaGator
06-06-2009, 09:50 AM
OK, so it's based on the tradition that Mary stayed a virgin...not on Scripture. :)

Did I say that? It's Catholic tradition that she stayed a virgin after the birth of Jesus but as we both know Scripture is definite when it states that she was a virgin at the time of Jesus' conception by the Holy Spirit. Personally, I don't think that she stayed a virgin but as Megi pointed out, Scripture does not mention her giving birth any other children. The lack of information does not, however, confirm either view. It just means that it is irrelevant to Salvation and the establishment of the Kingdom of God. Some of the popular stories of the time give a fuller history of Mary and Joseph but not being part of scripture they have to be taken with a grain of salt. Some may be accurate and some are surely not. I feel that you can read them and if what they tell you doesn't stand in contradiction to Scripture or stands in opposition to the lifestyles and traditions we know existed at the time we can assume the possibility that these extra-Biblical stories my be true.

thinker
06-06-2009, 11:17 AM
"Hail Mary, full of Grace, the LORD is with thee...blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of hour death. Amen."

From the Confiteor (the act of confession during Mass):

"I confess to Almighty God, and to you, my brothers and sisters, that I have sinned through my own fault, in my thoughts, and in my words, in what I have done, and what I have failed to do; and I ask the the blessed Mary, ever virgin, all the angels and saints, and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the LORD our God."

Rockntractor
06-06-2009, 11:19 AM
"Hail Mary, full of Grace, the LORD is with thee...blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of hour death. Amen."

From the Confiteor (the act of confession during Mass):

"I confess to Almighty God, and to you, my brothers and sisters, that I have sinned through my own fault, in my thoughts, and in my words, in what I have done, and what I have failed to do; and I ask the the blessed Mary, ever virgin, all the angels and saints, and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the LORD our God."
Are you good to go now for the week or do you have to recite that everyday?

thinker
06-06-2009, 11:39 AM
Are you good to go now for the week or do you have to recite that everyday?

I'll say it in Mass tomorrow...It doesn't really have the same effect without being in Church. I was just quoting in relevant part. Although no, the confessional prayer isn't something I feel moved to recite daily. Lord's prayer and Hail Mary, different story.

megimoo
06-06-2009, 12:16 PM
Did I say that? It's Catholic tradition that she stayed a virgin after the birth of Jesus but as we both know Scripture is definite when it states that she was a virgin at the time of Jesus' conception by the Holy Spirit. Personally, I don't think that she stayed a virgin but as Megi pointed out, Scripture does not mention her giving birth any other children. The lack of information does not, however, confirm either view. It just means that it is irrelevant to Salvation and the establishment of the Kingdom of God. Some of the popular stories of the time give a fuller history of Mary and Joseph but not being part of scripture they have to be taken with a grain of salt. Some may be accurate and some are surely not. I feel that you can read them and if what they tell you doesn't stand in contradiction to Scripture or stands in opposition to the lifestyles and traditions we know existed at the time we can assume the possibility that these extra-Biblical stories my be true.

.....................................
God, who is almighty, can do all things by himself,
without making use of the concurrence of creatures. Nevertheless he vouchsafes. in his exterior works, most frequently to use their co-operation. If he reveals his will and speaks to men, it is by the intervention of his prophets, and these he often enlightens by the ministry of angels.

Many of the ancient patriarchs were honored by him with the most sublime commissions. By Moses he delivered his people from the Egyptian slavery, by him he gave them his law, and he appointed him mediator in his alliance with them.

When the Son of God became man, he could have taken upon him our nature without the co-operation of any creature; but was pleased to be born of a woman.

In the choice of her whom he raised to this most sublime of all dignities to which any pure creature could be exalted, he pitched upon her who, by the riches of his grace and virtues, was of all others the most holy and the most perfect.

The design of this embassy of the archangel is as extraordinary as the persons concerned in it. It is to give a Saviour to the world, a victim of propitiation to the sinner, a model to the just, a son to this Virgin, remaining still a virgin, and a new nature to the Son of God, the nature of man, capable of suffering pain and anguish in order to the satisfaction of God's justice for our transgressions.

"Blessed Mary Ever Virgin The Perfection of All Of GODS Creations !!"
"Beata Marķa de los Angeles siempre virgen."

And the Son of God being to take a human body formed of her substance,

the Holy Ghost, who, by a power all-divine, was to her in place of a spouse, was not content to render her body capable of giving life to a Man-God, but likewise enriched her soul with a fulness of grace, that there might be a sort of proportion between the cause and the effect, and she the better qualified to co-operate towards this mystery of sanctity.
.............................................
SECTION I. Of the Humility of Mary.

‘Humility,’ says Saint Bernard, ‘is the foundation and guardian of virtues;’10 and with reason, for without it no other virtue can exist in a soul. Should she possess all virtues, all will depart when humility is gone. But, on the other hand, as Saint Francis of Sales wrote to Saint Jane de Chantal, ‘God so loves humility, that wherever He sees it, He is immediately drawn thither.’ This beautiful and so necessary virtue was unknown in the world; but the Son of God Himself came on earth to teach it by His own example, and willed that in that virtue in particular we should endeavour to imitate Him: “Learn of Me, because I am meek and humble of heart.”11 Mary, being the first and most perfect disciple of Jesus Christ in the practice of all virtues, was the first also in that of humility, and by it merited to be exalted above all creatures. It was revealed to Saint Matilda that the first virtue in which the Blessed Mother particularly exercised herself, from her very childhood, was that of humility.12

..........................................
The Humility of The Blessed Virgin Mary :
The Magnificat

My soul doth magnify the Lord:
And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Savior.
Because He hath regarded the lowliness of His Handmaid:
for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
For He that is mighty hath done great things to me: and holy is His Name. And His mercy is from generation unto generations,
to them that fear Him.

He hath showed might with His arm: He hath scattered the proud
in the conceit of their heart. He hath put down the mighty from their seat, and hath exalted the lowly. He hath filled the hungry with good things: and the rich He hath sent empty away. He hath received Israel His servant, being mindful of His mercy;
As He spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to his seed forever.

-----Luke 1: 46-55
............................................
Catholics and Orthodox call Mary ever-virgin. Isn't the Bible clear that Mary had other children?

Does the New Testament say Mary had other children? Read carefully now. St. Matthew (13: 55) and St. Mark (6:3) do give the names of those it calls Jesus' "brothers," namely, James, Joses, Simon, and Jude. However, if you look at Matthew 27: 56 and Mark 15: 40 you will see both Evangelists tell us quite clearly that James and Joses were NOT sons of Mary or Joseph but children of a different "Mary" who is called both the Wife of Alphaeus/Cleopas AND the Virgin Mary's "sister." Now, it would have been highly unlikely in those days for two Jewish sisters to have the same first name, but obviously some close relationship is implied among all these people. It's really fairly easily solved: Alphaeus/Cleopas was the brother of St. Joseph, hence Alphaeus' wife, Mary, was the sister-in-law of the Virgin, making James, Joses, Simon, Jude, and the "sisters" to be Jesus' cousins. That the Evangelists call such cousins "brothers and sisters" isn't surprising but quite in line with Semitic thought where close kin were often called brothers/sisters.

Also, read John 19:25-27 (NJB): Seeing his mother and the disciple whom he loved standing near her, Jesus said to his mother, "woman this is your son." Then to the disciple he said, "This is your mother." Thus, Jesus gave away his mother to the care of St. John the apostle, which would be very strange and probably even illegal had Mary had children of her own who could have cared for her.

One must also take into account the almost universal belief of Christians throughout the ages that Mary, the Mother of Jesus, whom we call the God-bearer, was ever-virgin. The majority of the ancient Fathers of the Church believed Mary was ever-virgin, including Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and St. Jerome. Many Reformers did as well (surprisingly to most Protestants) including Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, and John Wesley.

7. Doesn't Scripture say that Joseph "knew her not until she brought forth her firstborn son," implying other children?
In the Old Testament it is written that Michal had no child until the day of her death; does that mean she had one after she died? Of course not! The Evangelist, by stating that Joseph did not "know" Mary "until" she had given birth to Jesus, is simply re-emphasizing that this was a virgin birth, a birth caused by God and not man. St. Jerome, a language scholar, explained that the use of "until" is a Hebrew idiom which does not necessarily imply Mary had other children. Even John Calvin believed "firstborn" simply indicated that Mary was a virgin, and agreed with St. Jerome's assertions about the use of "until."

As for "first-born," Colossians 1: 15 calls Jesus the Firstborn of all creation in God's image.

Does this mean that there is a second, third, fourth born? That would be heresy. A first-born can be the only born. The term "firstborn" also had an important meaning in Judaic religion: The firstborn was considered holy and belonging solely to God as it was written in the Torah, "The first son that opens the womb shall be holy to the Lord." The parents had to "redeem" the firstborn son with offerings and sacrifice. Firstborn also is a synonym for "preeminent" in this ancient usage.

linda22003
06-06-2009, 02:15 PM
By Dory Previn, who was married to Andre Previn when he left her for Mia Farrow (she wrote "Beware of Young Girls" about Mia).

Did jesus have a baby sister?
Was she bitter?
Was she sweet?
Did she wind up in a convent?
Did she end up on the street?
On the run?
On the stage?
Did she dance?
Did he have a sister?
A little baby sister?
Did jesus have a sister?
Did they give her a chance?

Did he have a baby sister?
Could she speak out
By and large?
Or was she told by mother mary
Ask your brother he's in charge
He's the chief
He's the whipped cream
On the cake
Did he have a sister?
A little baby sister?
Did jesus have a sister?
Did they give her a break?

Her brother's
Birth announcement
Was pretty big
Pretty big
I guess
While she got precious
Little notice
In the local press
Her mother was the virgin
When she carried him
Carried him
Therein
If the little girl came later
Then
Was she conceived in sin?
And in sorrow?
And in suffering?
And in shame?
Did jesus have a sister?
What was her name?

And did she cry for mary's comfort
As she watched him
On the cross?
And was mary too despairing
Ask your brother
He's the boss
He's the chief
He's the man
He's the show
Did he have a sister?
A little baby sister?
Did jesus have a sister?
Doesn't anyone know?