PDA

View Full Version : Anti-abortion group stalked Dr Tiller and aided and abbetted his murder



wilbur
06-06-2009, 08:19 PM
This is just flabbergasting...


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22425001/vp/31093911#31093911

Lars1701a
06-06-2009, 08:24 PM
This is just flabbergasting...


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22425001/vp/31093911#31093911

Guy should be giving a medal IMHO.


Remember 60000 some odd abortions and late term ones, versus one douche bag provider.


I know you dont believe in God but I sure wish I could watch him explane himself to God.

wilbur
06-06-2009, 08:30 PM
I know you dont believe in God but I sure wish I could watch him explane himself to God.

The murderer who shot Dr Tiller? Yes, he does have some explaining to do.

Shannon
06-06-2009, 08:34 PM
I don't condone this but I have come to understand the thinking in my old age. Pro lifers truly believe that abortion is murder. Murder of innocent babies. You can do the Hitler analogy here. Would you have killed him to stop the murder of millions of people? (etc. etc.)

Lars1701a
06-06-2009, 08:37 PM
The murderer who shot Dr Tiller? Yes, he does have some explaining to do.

Wrong I was reffering to Dr Tiller bone head, but you knew that.

Lars1701a
06-06-2009, 08:38 PM
I don't condone this but I have come to understand the thinking in my old age. Pro lifers truly believe that abortion is murder. Murder of innocent babies. You can do the Hitler analogy here. Would you have killed him to stop the murder of millions of people? (etc. etc.)

I dont compare them to Hitler, he was a piker compared to abortion doctors.

20 some million killed by Hitler while many more by abortion.

wilbur
06-06-2009, 08:40 PM
I don't condone this but I have come to understand the thinking in my old age. Pro lifers truly believe that abortion is murder. Murder of innocent babies. You can do the Hitler analogy here. Would you have killed him to stop the murder of millions of people? (etc. etc.)

I understand this point all to well. I don't miss this aspect of that belief system, and its precisely why it is wrong.

That is partly why I maintain such a firm stance against the nonsense... it kills ACTUAL people... or builds an environment that will actually lead to deaths, just like in this case.. look at lars, here... Pro-life philosophy (or lack-there-of) is responsible for this, completely..


You shall know them by their fruits.

Even look at the reactions from most pro-lifers after this incident... which was to lament, not over the murder, but at the trouble this will cause their belief system. Absolutely horrific.

Lars1701a
06-06-2009, 08:44 PM
I understand this point all to well. I don't miss this aspect of that belief system, and its precisely why it is wrong.

That is partly why I maintain such a firm stance against the nonsense... it kills ACTUAL people... or builds an environment that will actually lead to deaths, just like in this case.. look at lars, here... Pro-life philosophy (or lack-there-of) is responsible for this, completely..


You shall know them by their fruits.

Who said I was prolife? I am pro innocent like babies in their mothers wombs not people who have murdered others in the commission of a crime. I know killing that piece of trash (Dr tiller) wont stop abortion but its a start.

I am all for executing criminals for murder, rape and abortion doctors.

thinker
06-06-2009, 09:03 PM
Then you're for the execution of the man who killed Dr. Tiller, then?

MrsSmith
06-06-2009, 09:08 PM
This is just flabbergasting...the same religious group that has murdered thousands of innocent civilians and US soldiers assisted in this murder

While in Yemen, Hensley said Muhammad married and converted to Islam. (http://www.witn.com/home/headlines/47046687.html)

:eek::eek:

Coverage uneven for abortion doctor, soldier

Two apparent politically motivated slayings within 24 hours resulted in some very uneven news coverage. The press paid far more attention to the killing of late-term abortion provider Dr. George Tiller than it did to Army recruiter Pvt. William Andrew Long.

>>>

"Big media, which is doing its best to link the killing of George Tiller to the mainstream pro-life movement, is going out of its way to assert that there is no evidence that Abdulhakim Muhammad had any connection to Muslim groups," said Gary Bauer, president of American Values. "The few exceptions where there is coverage only prove the rule. For the mainstream media, this is a nonstory."

(http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/jun/05/coverage-uneven-for-abortion-doctor-soldier/)


49 MILLION TO FIVE (http://www.anncoulter.org/)

>>>

Why aren't liberals rushing to assure us this time that "most pro-lifers are peaceful"? Unlike Muslims, pro-lifers actually are peaceful.

According to recent polling, a majority of Americans oppose abortion -- which is consistent with liberals' hysterical refusal to allow us to vote on the subject. In a country with approximately 150 million pro-lifers, five abortionists have been killed since Roe v. Wade.

In that same 36 years, more than 49 million babies have been killed by abortionists. Let's recap that halftime score, sports fans: 49 million to five.

>>>

But the killing of about one abortionist per decade leads liberals to condemn the entire pro-life movement as "domestic terrorists." At least liberals have finally found some terrorists they'd like to send to Guantanamo.

>>>

I wouldn't kill an abortionist myself, but I wouldn't want to impose my moral values on others. No one is for shooting abortionists. But how will criminalizing men making difficult, often tragic, decisions be an effective means of achieving the goal of reducing the shootings of abortionists?

Following the moral precepts of liberals, I believe the correct position is: If you don't believe in shooting abortionists, then don't shoot one.

Shannon
06-06-2009, 09:12 PM
Then you're for the execution of the man who killed Dr. Tiller, then?

That's the argument, isn't it? If someone kills somebody to "save" (however many) people, is it cold blooded murder? Should they be prosecuted? The man who killed the "doctor" thought he was saving babies. I guess it all comes back to that whole "when does life begin" argument....and that never ends.

thinker
06-06-2009, 09:16 PM
Not the question I was asking, Shannon. I'm interested in hearing Lars' answer. Murder is murder is murder is murder. By the way, I happen to believe that abortion (especially late term) is murder.

The question stands. Lars, you just posted that you believe murderers should be executed....how about the man who murdered Dr. Tiller?

Lars1701a
06-06-2009, 09:28 PM
Then you're for the execution of the man who killed Dr. Tiller, then?

No I thought I was clear that he should be giving a medal

thinker
06-06-2009, 09:29 PM
So it's not murder to kill another human being if they're evil enough, huh? And who makes that judgement call? You?

Lars1701a
06-06-2009, 09:30 PM
Not the question I was asking, Shannon. I'm interested in hearing Lars' answer. Murder is murder is murder is murder. By the way, I happen to believe that abortion (especially late term) is murder.

The question stands. Lars, you just posted that you believe murders should be executed....how about the man who murdered Dr. Tiller?

No I think he killed him in the attempt to save un-born babies lives thats killing not murder.

I know what you are trying to pull and it wont work.

Lars1701a
06-06-2009, 09:31 PM
So it's not murder to kill another human being if they're evil enough, huh? And who makes that judgement call? You?

Well I guess 60,000 murders on your ledger kind of makes you evil enough.

Lars1701a
06-06-2009, 09:32 PM
Well since you and wulbur dont believe in God maybe you believe in Karma and it sure came around in bit him on the ass.

thinker
06-06-2009, 09:34 PM
No I think he killed him in the attempt to save un-born babies lives thats killing not murder.

Defense of the defenseless, hm? Alright, if he's so right, why haven't YOU done it? Or are you comfortable letting other people fight your battles for you?

Moreover, why do you get to impose your definition on people who don't agree with you? Don't try to assume that it's not my definition, just answer the question objectively.

And if I see anyone attempting to kill an innocent, does that instantly make it okay to kill them?


I know what you are trying to pull and it wont work.

Really? Then why don't you lay it out on the table, because I really don't think you do.

Lars1701a
06-06-2009, 09:34 PM
Thinker err WC or CW whatever incarnation you are using today please go F yourself and have a nice day. :)

Lars1701a
06-06-2009, 09:36 PM
Defense of the defenseless, hm? Alright, if he's so right, why haven't YOU done it? Or are you comfortable letting other people fight your battles for you?

Moreover, why do you get to impose your definition on people who don't agree with you? Don't try to assume that it's not my definition, just answer the question objectively.

And if I see anyone attempting to kill an innocent, does that instantly make it okay to kill them?



Really? Then why don't you lay it out on the table, because I really don't think you do.

Right and wrong look up the terms and get back to me.

If you think what Tiller did was right then maybe you need to at it more objectively.


IF you see someone trying to murder another you should help. BTW (killing and murder are different)

thinker
06-06-2009, 09:36 PM
Well since you and wulbur dont believe in God maybe you believe in Karma and it sure came around in bit him on the ass.

Nice to see another hothead.

Reality check, smart guy. My wife got pregnant when we were still engaged and both in school.

I've worked my ass off for the last 2 and a half years so that my now 14 month old son can have as good a life as I can provide. I'm a practicing Roman Catholic and happen to believe abortion is murder.

So now that you've made a COMPLETE ass of yourself by completely misjudging me, why don't you try again, and start with an apology.

Shannon
06-06-2009, 09:36 PM
Thinker err WC or CW whatever incarnation you are using today please go F yourself and have a nice day. :)

Thinker is not any incarnation of CW. That has already been established. Let's move along now.

Lars1701a
06-06-2009, 09:38 PM
Nice to see another hothead.

Reality check, smart guy. My wife got pregnant when we were still engaged and both in school.

I've worked my ass off for the last 2 and a half years so that my now 14 month old son can have as good a life as I can provide. I'm a practicing Roman Catholic and happen to believe abortion is murder.

So now that you've made a COMPLETE ass of yourself by completely misjudging me, why don't you try again, and start with an apology.

um no

Lars1701a
06-06-2009, 09:39 PM
Thinker is not any incarnation of CW. That has already been established. Let's move along now.

Well WC came to mind when I read this guy.

thinker
06-06-2009, 09:39 PM
um no

Congratulations, you're a total piece of trash. Run along now and keep up the good work playing at eleet keyboard w4rri0r.

Lars1701a
06-06-2009, 09:39 PM
Nice to see another hothead.

Reality check, smart guy. My wife got pregnant when we were still engaged and both in school.

I've worked my ass off for the last 2 and a half years so that my now 14 month old son can have as good a life as I can provide. I'm a practicing Roman Catholic and happen to believe abortion is murder.

So now that you've made a COMPLETE ass of yourself by completely misjudging me, why don't you try again, and start with an apology.

So if you believe Abortion is murder then why are you against what Tillers killer did?

thinker
06-06-2009, 09:39 PM
Well WC came to mind when I read this guy.

Rat comes to mind when I read you, actually.

Lars1701a
06-06-2009, 09:40 PM
Rat comes to mind when I read you, actually.

/yawn

Lars1701a
06-06-2009, 09:42 PM
I dont give a flying F#$K what you think about buddy, I just gave my opinion that the person who shot Dr Tiller should be giving a medal. I dont have to explane why to you. You have a high opinion of yourself.

thinker
06-06-2009, 09:42 PM
So if you believe Abortion is murder then what are you against what Tillers killer did?

Because I happen to believe murder of any kind is wrong. Thou shalt not kill does not contain any exception clauses, genius. Killing a single abortion doctor does nothing to stop the pace of abortions in this country. All it does is make people who are anti-abortion look like terrorists (yes, terrorists, and that makes me angry as all hell because it probably means more babies end up in a wastebin somewhere), and it is nothing more than vengeance killing, which is specifically prohibited, repeatedly, in the Bible.

The Lord God will judge abortion doctors at the appropriate time. No one man or institution has the right, capability, or means to adequately do the same.

thinker
06-06-2009, 09:44 PM
I dont give a flying F#$K what you think about buddy, I just gave my opinion that the person who shot Dr Tiller should be giving a medal. I dont have to explane why to you. You have a high opinion of yourself.

And I attempted to engage you in meaningful conversation. You responded in the most immature, incorrect, and generally pathetic manner possible. If it gets your rocks off to be a hotshot on an online message board, go right ahead, but I actually come here to discuss issues that get posted about, not watch hotbutton idiots echo themselves to death.

Lars1701a
06-06-2009, 09:46 PM
Because I happen to believe murder of any kind is wrong. Thou shalt not kill does not contain any exception clauses, genius. Killing a single abortion doctor does nothing to stop the pace of abortions in this country. All it does is make people who are anti-abortion look like terrorists (yes, terrorists, and that makes me angry as all hell because it probably means more babies end up in a wastebin somewhere), and it is nothing more than vengeance killing, which is specifically prohibited, repeatedly, in the Bible.

The Lord God will judge abortion doctors at the appropriate time. No one man or institution has the right, capability, or means to adequately do the same.

No the commandment says thou shalt not MURDER not thou shalt not KILL.

Lars1701a
06-06-2009, 09:48 PM
And I attempted to engage you in meaningful conversation. You responded in the most immature, incorrect, and generally pathetic manner possible. If it gets your rocks off to be a hotshot on an online message board, go right ahead, but I actually come here to discuss issues that get posted about, not watch hotbutton idiots echo themselves to death.

I am not open for debate about what he did (Dr Tiller) it was murder for money.

thinker
06-06-2009, 09:48 PM
No the commandment says thou shalt not MURDER not thou shalt KILL.

Depends on both which version you're reading and how you like to interpret the original Greek.

Never mind that vengeance killing is never anything but murder. See my previous point about how he wasn't saving any babies by killing Tiller. There are plenty more sickos where he [Tiller] came from. No one is going to be unable to get an abortion because he's dead; however, a few were probably delayed by the gluing shut of the clinic doors and other nonviolent means the man who was arrested pursued.

thinker
06-06-2009, 09:49 PM
I am not open for debate about what he did (Dr Tiller) it was murder for money.

I never attempted to defend what Dr. Tiller did. I never will. My concern is over how you seem to think murder is okay in some cases, but not in others, which speaks to a rather ugly ethical flaw.

Lars1701a
06-06-2009, 09:49 PM
Depends on both which version you're reading and how you like to interpret the original Greek.

Never mind that vengeance killing is never anything but murder. See my previous point about how he wasn't saving any babies by killing Tiller. There are plenty more sickos where he came from.

How do you know the man had vengeance in his heart? maybe he thought he was saving them.

Lars1701a
06-06-2009, 09:52 PM
I never attempted to defend what Dr. Tiller did. I never will. My concern is over how you seem to think murder is okay in some cases, but not in others, which speaks to a rather ugly ethical flaw.

Ok I was type this nice and slow for you KILLING is not the same as MURDER. What tiller did was MURDER what his killer did was NOT. (if his actions were based on trying to stop abortions) which I will agree with you wont work but maybe in his mind he thought he was.. There are plenty of twisted people to fill in the gaps.

thinker
06-06-2009, 09:58 PM
Ok I was type this nice and slow for you KILLING is not the same as MURDER. What tiller did was MURDER what his killer did was NOT. (if his actions were based on trying to stop abortions) which I will agree with you wont work but maybe in his mind he thought he was.. There are plenty of twisted people to fill in the gaps.

Progress. So you realize that the only way it could have *possibly* been justified is if his actions actually saved an innocent life. You also seem to recognize that killing Tiller doesn't achieve that.

It's been ruled many, many, many times in US courts that intent, after a certain point, is irrelevant. His actions meet the qualifications for murder, not defending the defenseless. He did not kill Dr. Tiller in the midst of prying a foetus out of a woman's womb; he murdered him, IN COLD BLOOD, in a CHURCH. He's going to burn in Hell for a long time for that one. I doubt strongly that the Good Lord looks kindly on killing in His name.

And let's be clear: Killing is *ALWAYS* wrong. The only reason you have half a leg to stand on is because it's more wrong to let someone be murdered - and it's fair to say that no one isn't going to be murdered because of this action, so we're back to square one. Killing is always wrong.

Lars1701a
06-06-2009, 10:01 PM
Progress. So you realize that the only way it could have *possibly* been justified is if his actions actually saved an innocent life. You also seem to recognize that killing Tiller doesn't achieve that.

It's been ruled many, many, many times in US courts that intent, after a certain point, is irrelevant. His actions meet the qualifications for murder, not defending the defenseless. He did not kill Dr. Tiller in the midst of prying a foetus out of a woman's womb; he murdered him, IN COLD BLOOD, in a CHURCH. He's going to burn in Hell for a long time for that one. I doubt strongly that the Good Lord looks kindly on killing in His name.

And let's be clear: Killing is *ALWAYS* wrong. The only reason you have half a leg to stand on is because it's more wrong to let someone be murdered - and it's fair to say that no one isn't going to be murdered because of this action, so we're back to square one. Killing is always wrong.

Ok killing someone who is trying to kill or rape your wife is wrong? God doesnt think its wrong and neither would the law think killing that person is wrong.

Again the Bible says thou shalt not MURDER, killing someone in the defence of another is not murder.


BTW I dont care what the courts say. They gave us Abortion for crying out loud.


On edit: I just got my new computer up and running with some boss new speakers. I am going to do something more fun and important. LIKE playing wow. Toodles.

Shannon
06-06-2009, 10:05 PM
I'm just wondering who he should be giving a medal to.

Lars1701a
06-06-2009, 10:07 PM
I'm just wondering who he should be giving a medal to.


Shannon it was tounge and cheek comment. I dont think he should be rewarded in any way but I dont think he should be punnished.

Lars1701a
06-06-2009, 10:08 PM
SOOOO PISSEDS I could murder :(


My buddy didnt put wow on this system

Rockntractor
06-06-2009, 10:08 PM
I'm just wondering who he should be giving a medal to.
And what would it look like? Maybe it should be a trophy?

Shannon
06-06-2009, 10:10 PM
Shannon it was tounge and cheek comment. I dont think he should be rewarded in any way but I dont think he should be punnished.

Lars...what you meant to say was..."he should be given a medal. I was just being a smartass.

thinker
06-06-2009, 10:19 PM
Ok killing someone who is trying to kill or rape your wife is wrong? God doesnt think its wrong and neither would the law think killing that person is wrong.

Taking a life is a sin, and taking a life to protect someone you love doesn't absolve you of it. Your belief that it's somehow possible to walk through life without sin if only the "right" thing were done in every instance smacks of a rather shallow and naive outlook on the world.


Again the Bible says thou shalt not MURDER, killing someone in the defence of another is not murder.

I take it you prefer the Old Testament to the New? You certainly seem like an eye for an eye kind of person. Hope you never end up on the wrong end of someone like yourself. It must be nice to live in a state of moral superiority.

Nice job ignoring my point on different interpretations of the Bible. My King James Bible clearly states:

Dueteronomy 5:17 Thou shalt not kill.

More clarification, for those who care:

http://jbrooks2.tripod.com/THOU_SHALT_NOT_KILL.html


<snip>In Matthew Chapter 19, Verse 18, it is rendered, “THOU SHALT DO NO MURDER.” Only a few chapters previously, Matthew 5:21, Christ, in His Sermon on the Mount, quotes this command as “THOU SHALT NOT KILL,” and the whole tenor of His sermon was intended to emphasize and strengthen the Law. How is it then, that this vital Alteration has crept into our Bibles? In the Greek, Latin. French, German, Italian, Spanish and Welsh translations of the Scriptures the wording of this verse, Matthew Chapter 19, Verse 18, is the same as in Exodus 20, “THOU SHALT NOT KILL.” Why then has this been changed in our English version to “THOU SHALT DO NO MURDER,” which has such a different meaning? And what is still more important for us to know, is why this changing of Gods Law which occurs only once in Matthew Chapter 19, Verse 18, is printed not only in our Prayer Books, both in the Catechism and in the Communion Service, but is often engraved on the Altars of our Churches instead of :— “THOU SHALT NOT KILL” — Exodus Chapter 20, Verse 13.
“Thou shalt not kill” — Deut. 5:17.
“Thou shalt not kill” — Matthew 5:21.
“Do not kill” — Mark 10:19.
“Do not kill” — Luke 18:20.
“Thou shalt not kill” — Romans 8:9.
“Do not kill” — James 2:11.
The command in the Hebrew Talmud is distinctly “THOU SHALT NOT KILL.” The Greek word “Mephoneuseis,” as well as the Latin “non occides,” remain the same in all the eight instances. Luther's Bible, which is quoted by many critics as the purest interpretation of the Bible, and which shows deep insight and knowledge of the Hebrew Scriptures, retains the original wording, “THOU SHALT NOT KILL” <snip>

So now that we've established that it's a perfectly legitimate interpretation, either admit that your perspective isn't nearly as airtight as you'd like, or realize that you're nothing more than a hack.



BTW I dont care what the courts say. They gave us Abortion for cry out loud.

..from the very same post!


neither would the law think killing that person is wrong.

Damn, you're selective, aren't you?


On edit: I just got my new computer up and running with some boss new speakers. I am going to something more fun and important. LIKE playing wow. Toodles.

Righto. That seems more within your comprehension range. Have fun :)

thinker
06-06-2009, 10:24 PM
Shannon it was tounge and cheek comment. I dont think he should be rewarded in any way but I dont think he should be punnished.

Gee, that was hard. See what happens when you go off halfcocked and let SR's tag for meh inform every perception you hold?

FlaGator
06-06-2009, 10:26 PM
So if you believe Abortion is murder then why are you against what Tillers killer did?

I believe that abortion is murder, but I also believe that you don't answer murder with murder. That makes you no different that the person(s) you have killed.

"Once you use the weapons of your enemy against him, you have already lost" N. T. Wright.

To me that means that you have given validation to the actions of the person you oppose by adopting the same behavior for yourself.

thinker
06-06-2009, 10:27 PM
I believe that abortion is murder, but I also believe that you don't answer murder with murder. That makes you no different that the person(s) you have killed.

" Once you use the weapons of your enemy against him, you have already lost" N. T. Wright.

My point exactly.

There, now that you have it from someone you fully trust the conservative credentials of, Lars, do you see what I'm saying?

*laying off the post reply button to not cram this thread up any further*

Shannon
06-06-2009, 10:29 PM
" Once you use the weapons of your enemy against him, you have already lost" N. T. Wright.

I think that's bullshit.

FlaGator
06-06-2009, 10:31 PM
I think that's bullshit.

What you think doesn't make the quote wrong. It is basically the opinion of Christ and I value His judgment over yours.

Shannon
06-06-2009, 10:34 PM
What you think doesn't make the quote wrong. It is basically the opinion of Christ and I value His judgment over yours.

As you should.

Lars1701a
06-06-2009, 10:51 PM
Taking a life is a sin, and taking a life to protect someone you love doesn't absolve you of it. Your belief that it's somehow possible to walk through life without sin if only the "right" thing were done in every instance smacks of a rather shallow and naive outlook on the world.



I take it you prefer the Old Testament to the New? You certainly seem like an eye for an eye kind of person. Hope you never end up on the wrong end of someone like yourself. It must be nice to live in a state of moral superiority.

Nice job ignoring my point on different interpretations of the Bible. My King James Bible clearly states:

Dueteronomy 5:17 Thou shalt not kill.

More clarification, for those who care:

http://jbrooks2.tripod.com/THOU_SHALT_NOT_KILL.html



So now that we've established that it's a perfectly legitimate interpretation, either admit that your perspective isn't nearly as airtight as you'd like, or realize that you're nothing more than a hack.




..from the very same post!



Damn, you're selective, aren't you?



Righto. That seems more within your comprehension range. Have fun :)



Did you say something?

Rockntractor
06-06-2009, 10:54 PM
http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv230/upyourstruly/piggy.gif?t=1244343183

Shannon
06-06-2009, 10:56 PM
http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv230/upyourstruly/piggy.gif?t=1244343183

Again with the swine.

Lars1701a
06-06-2009, 11:00 PM
http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv230/upyourstruly/piggy.gif?t=1244343183

Man where do you get all this stuff? :)

Lars1701a
06-06-2009, 11:03 PM
My point exactly.

There, now that you have it from someone you fully trust the conservative credentials of, Lars, do you see what I'm saying?

*laying off the post reply button to not cram this thread up any further*

listen WC err thinker you shed a tear for that murderer and I wont. Did the killer of Dr Tiller break the law? YES happy? Did I think what he did was wrong? NO

God will Judge I am just glad Tiller wont kill anymore babies.

Shannon
06-06-2009, 11:07 PM
God will Judge I am just glad Tiller wont kill anymore babies.

There are tons lined up to take his place. Abortion "doctors" will be around as long as there is a demand for them.

Lars1701a
06-06-2009, 11:09 PM
There are tons lined up to take his place. Abortion "doctors" will be around as long as there is a demand for them.

There are only 2 others that do what he did (late term abortions) if what i hear in the papers are true.

Well just goes to prove how sick this country is getting.

Shannon
06-06-2009, 11:23 PM
There are only 2 others that do what he did (late term abortions) if what i hear in the papers are true.

Well just goes to prove how sick this country is getting.

Late term abortions are worse than early term?

Lars1701a
06-06-2009, 11:24 PM
Late term abortions are worse than early term?

No but I am refering to what he did for a living (late term abortions).

Shannon
06-06-2009, 11:36 PM
My offficial reply on abortion:


I think it's disgusting. I get physically ill just thinking about it. In my view, there is never an excuse for it.

HOWEVER... I've started a slide toward Ginger's people. I don't want the government involved in anything involving...well...anything, really.

Is it wrong to kill an abortion "doctor"? I dunno. I gues it all depends on who you ultimately answer to.

thinker
06-07-2009, 01:24 AM
I don't comprehend basic logic, can't respond coherently when other people counter my one liners, and generally fail at life. Did you say something I have any hope of responding to?

In a word, no.

AmPat
06-07-2009, 01:32 AM
[QUOTE=wilbur;143101]I understand this point all to well. I don't miss this aspect of that belief system, and its precisely why it is wrong.
I don't believe you do. You miss it as evidenced below


That is partly why I maintain such a firm stance against the nonsense... it kills ACTUAL people... or builds an environment that will actually lead to deaths
Pro life people believe that the baby that was hacked to death is an "actual" person.

In the second bold text, the environment the baby is in, the womb, is one that supports and leads to life. The abortion by its very meaning already has an environment. That environment is death. That is precisely the end state.

While the liberals and other pro-death supporters rally round Dr Death, who mourns the 40 million babies hacked to death in the womb?

I wish this were not so political. I don't understand it from a political point of view. Abortion just seems wrong to me, and in the case of this "Dr" who ironically swore to the hipocratic oath, evil.:(

FlaGator
06-07-2009, 06:52 AM
[QUOTE]
I don't believe you do. You miss it as evidenced below


Pro life people believe that the baby that was hacked to death is an "actual" person.

In the second bold text, the environment the baby is in, the womb, is one that supports and leads to life. The abortion by its very meaning already has an environment. That environment is death. That is precisely the end state.

While the liberals and other pro-death supporters rally round Dr Death, who mourns the 40 million babies hacked to death in the womb?

I wish this were not so political. I don't understand it from a political point of view. Abortion just seems wrong to me, and in the case of this "Dr" who ironically swore to the hipocratic oath, evil.:(

People who share wilbur's atheistic views have killed far more people than those who profess Christian views.

Lars1701a
06-07-2009, 07:49 AM
In a word, no.


WC you are getting boring. :p

Lars1701a
06-07-2009, 07:50 AM
[quote=AmPat;143248]

People who share wilbur's atheistic views have killed far more people than those who profess Christian views.

communisim which was a atheistic cult that killed over 100 million people last century.

Nubs
06-07-2009, 09:24 AM
Maybe the killer of Tiller decided he would trade his life, his soul, for the next 60,000? Who shall lay down his life for anothers......

I've spent a week trying to find sympathy, even some empathy, for Tiller but I just can't find it.

thinker
06-07-2009, 11:02 AM
WC you are getting boring. :p

Whatever you say, Rat ;)

thinker
06-07-2009, 11:09 AM
Maybe the killer of Tiller decided he would trade his life, his soul, for the next 60,000? Who shall lay down his life for anothers......

I've spent a week trying to find sympathy, even some empathy, for Tiller but I just can't find it.

At this point it really has nothing to do with Tiller, per se. The news media now gets to use the words "anti-abortion movement" and "terrorist" in the same breath, thanks to this whackjob and possibly thanks to this anti abortion group. That only hurts the unborn in the long run, wouldn't you agree?

Space Gravy
06-07-2009, 11:23 AM
At this point it really has nothing to do with Tiller, per se. The news media now gets to use the words "anti-abortion movement" and "terrorist" in the same breath, thanks to this whackjob and possibly thanks to this anti abortion group. That only hurts the unborn in the long run, wouldn't you agree?

I don't think it matters. I don't ever see abortion going away.

thinker
06-07-2009, 11:30 AM
I don't think it matters. I don't ever see abortion going away.

Perhaps not, in the widespread social sense. On the individual level? I've known several very close friends and a few family members who have had to struggle with it, and events like this do inform their opinions.

Beyond that, whether it's possible to revert to an abortion free society or not, the morality of the situation doesn't just go away if there's no goal to be achieved. It's STILL wrong to kill the doctor, just like it's STILL wrong to kill the unborn.

linda22003
06-07-2009, 12:55 PM
Beyond that, whether it's possible to revert to an abortion free society or not, the morality of the situation doesn't just go away if there's no goal to be achieved. It's STILL wrong to kill the doctor, just like it's STILL wrong to kill the unborn.

"Revert" to an "abortion-free" society? That assumes we ever were abortion free in the first place, which we never were.

thinker
06-07-2009, 01:03 PM
"Revert" to an "abortion-free" society? That assumes we ever were abortion free in the first place, which we never were.

In modern history, you're right. They don't do many abortions in India or Africa. In order for abortions to completely disappear, you'd have to make the demand for population so great that it would be not just a moral imperative but a social imperative, which it hasn't been for well over a century in this country.

FlaGator
06-07-2009, 02:49 PM
Maybe the killer of Tiller decided he would trade his life, his soul, for the next 60,000? Who shall lay down his life for anothers......

I've spent a week trying to find sympathy, even some empathy, for Tiller but I just can't find it.

And it probably didn't prevent one abortion.

CorwinK
06-07-2009, 07:40 PM
I doubt strongly that the Good Lord looks kindly on killing in His name.

THOU SHALT NOT KILL

Murder. But when you think about it, religion has never really had a big problem with murder. More people have been killed in the name of god than for any other reason. All you have to do is look at Northern Ireland, Cashmire, the Inquisition, the Crusades, and the World Trade Center to see how seriously the religious folks take thou shalt not kill. The more devout they are, the more they see murder as being negotiable. It depends on who's doin the killin' and who's gettin' killed.

George Carlin, excerpt from his 10 commandments routine, figured we could use a laugh after the last 8 pages of negativity.

On a serious note, Lars...the killing of one who killed is still wrong no matter how you look at it. It doesn't matter if its soldiers killing enemy soldiers, vigilantes killing drug dealers or pimps or abortion doctors, random street thugs shooting each other and hitting innocents in the process its all wrong, however necessary it may be at the time to prevent further evil, the act of murder is still wrong. The one thing everyone here is failing to realize (or simply not acknowledging) is the forgiveness factor. Anyone who truly repents of their actions will be forgiven by God and be able to enter his presence...its all over the new testament but you shouldn't have to go past the first 4 books to get it repeated enough. Did Dr. Tiller repent? probably not, true repentance means he wouldn't be performing abortions anymore...but since he was shot going into church, who can possibly know that the ministers message that morning wouldn't have put such a burden on Dr. Tiller's heart that he repented and his murder be entirely unnecessary to save the lives of babies as is the reason for the murder?

hazlnut
06-07-2009, 11:39 PM
Then you're for the execution of the man who killed Dr. Tiller, then?

Absolutely, and torture of Scott Roeder if he knows of other domestic terrorist acts in the planning stages.

We got enough problems to tackle in this country without these sick monsters running around making bombs and shooting people.

Lars1701a
06-08-2009, 06:12 AM
Absolutely, and torture of Scott Roeder if he knows of other domestic terrorist acts in the planning stages.

We got enough problems to tackle in this country without these sick monsters running around making bombs and shooting people.

You would torture a real American hero. :rolleyes:

They would stop shooting people if the people would stop murdering babies.

FlaGator
06-08-2009, 06:21 AM
You would torture a real American hero. :rolleyes:

They would stop shooting people if the people would stop murdering babies.

I wouldn't call him a hero. More like a misguided soul who gave gave away his life for absolutely nothing.

Lars1701a
06-08-2009, 06:28 AM
I wouldn't call him a hero. More like a misguided soul who gave gave away his life for absolutely nothing.

You are wrong, Dr tiller will not kill anymore. He was an above the average abortion doctor. ;)


Its funny most here think abortion is murder and a blight on our country but seem perfectly fine to allow it to continue or slam the one person who is at least trying to end it. People like WC err thinker think (while opposing abortion) is fine dont offer any other viable alternatives to trying to end abortion.

Lars1701a
06-08-2009, 06:31 AM
THOU SHALT NOT KILL

Murder. But when you think about it, religion has never really had a big problem with murder. More people have been killed in the name of god than for any other reason. All you have to do is look at Northern Ireland, Cashmire, the Inquisition, the Crusades, and the World Trade Center to see how seriously the religious folks take thou shalt not kill. The more devout they are, the more they see murder as being negotiable. It depends on who's doin the killin' and who's gettin' killed.

George Carlin, excerpt from his 10 commandments routine, figured we could use a laugh after the last 8 pages of negativity.

On a serious note, Lars...the killing of one who killed is still wrong no matter how you look at it. It doesn't matter if its soldiers killing enemy soldiers, vigilantes killing drug dealers or pimps or abortion doctors, random street thugs shooting each other and hitting innocents in the process its all wrong, however necessary it may be at the time to prevent further evil, the act of murder is still wrong. The one thing everyone here is failing to realize (or simply not acknowledging) is the forgiveness factor. Anyone who truly repents of their actions will be forgiven by God and be able to enter his presence...its all over the new testament but you shouldn't have to go past the first 4 books to get it repeated enough. Did Dr. Tiller repent? probably not, true repentance means he wouldn't be performing abortions anymore...but since he was shot going into church, who can possibly know that the ministers message that morning wouldn't have put such a burden on Dr. Tiller's heart that he repented and his murder be entirely unnecessary to save the lives of babies as is the reason for the murder?

I cant for the life of me understand why a Christian Church would allow this man in until he at least stop murdering unborn babies. In WC's err thinkers mind a church should be fine with his "job".

FlaGator
06-08-2009, 06:37 AM
You are wrong, Dr tiller will not kill anymore. He was an above the average abortion doctor. ;)


Its funny most here think abortion is murder and a blight on our country but seem perfectly fine to allow it to continue or slam the one person who is at least trying to end it. People like WC err thinker think (while opposing abortion) is fine dont offer any other viable alternatives to trying to end abortion.

Murdering someone is not the solution. In this case others have stepped in to replace him. He has been made a martyr and zealots have been created. You will now have more doctors doing this type of abortion and more babies dying because of it. When the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor did that scare the U.S. out of becoming involved? No, it solidified our resolve and brought us in to the war.

Murder is never a valid solution to a problem. Once people take justice in to their own hands they have made acceptable chaos.In this case since abortion is legal then the justice should be left to God. And we as citizens of a government that God has ordained must use the law to change things. If we can not keep the laws of man then we show God that we can not keep his laws. Most people here are true to their conviction, if it is wrong to kill babies then it is wrong to kill the killer of babies. It can not be both ways.

noonwitch
06-08-2009, 08:56 AM
I cant for the life of me understand why a Christian Church would allow this man in until he at least stop murdering unborn babies. In WC's err thinkers mind a church should be fine with his "job".


There are plenty of churches that don't take a stand on abortion. There are even more that don't ask too many questions of their members about their political beliefs or professional practices.

linda22003
06-08-2009, 08:58 AM
You would torture a real American hero. :rolleyes:


I suppose it's no surprise that you would find a mentally ill loser to be an American hero. :p Since he says there are more killings planned, maybe you could get in touch with him and find out how to get in on the action! He should be pretty easy to find, care of the Sedgewick County Jail. ;)

movie buff
06-08-2009, 10:12 AM
Then you're for the execution of the man who killed Dr. Tiller, then?

That's for the courts to decide.
If they feel it's called for, then yes.

thinker
06-08-2009, 11:37 AM
You are wrong, Dr tiller will not kill anymore. He was an above the average abortion doctor. ;)


Its funny most here think abortion is murder and a blight on our country but seem perfectly fine to allow it to continue or slam the one person who is at least trying to end it. People like WC err thinker think (while opposing abortion) is fine dont offer any other viable alternatives to trying to end abortion.

This another one of your "not up for discussion" statements, little man? There are plenty of viable options to avert an abortion, none of which involve one of the greatest sins you can possibly commit.

What have you ever done to end a single abortion? For myself, I offer financial support to anyone I know that decides to go through with the pregnancy. Our church runs a hotline for women that need counseling, which I've volunteered for a few times.

I suppose it's easier to just toss out trite little one liners and go back to living in your mother's basement playing WoW, and act like you give a shit. Put up or shut up.

thinker
06-08-2009, 11:39 AM
I cant for the life of me understand why a Christian Church would allow this man in until he at least stop murdering unborn babies. In WC's err thinkers mind a church should be fine with his "job".

You don't have a clue.

Rebel Yell
06-08-2009, 12:04 PM
I think what Tiller's murderer did was done with the best intentions (saving innocent babies). I don't agree with what he did, and I don't mourn the loss of Dr. Tiller ( I don't mourn the loss of people who have no impact on my life). Actually, I feel the world is a better place without him. Would I gun someone down for performing abortions? No, I wouldn't, my duty is to my family and my friends.

Why didn't this guy gun down the women coming out of the abortion clinic? Are they not even more evil by paying someone to murder their babies? No, let God judge them.

If this guy truly believes in his cause (which I think he does), then he should be willing to suffer the consequences. The Bible also says that you have to follow man's law, which means you have to be prepared to be sublect to man's punishment on Earth. If this man begs for sympathy or tries to escape punishment, then he is a hypocrit and deserves sympathy from no one.

linda22003
06-08-2009, 12:07 PM
With the best of intentions.... yep, great guy. For a lot of America now, THIS is the face of the pro-life movement - I think that's unfair, but this is the current poster boy.

http://www.lifenews.com/roed2.jpg

Rebel Yell
06-08-2009, 12:13 PM
With the best of intentions.... yep, great guy. For a lot of America now, THIS is the face of the pro-life movement - I think that's unfair, but this is the current poster boy.

http://www.lifenews.com/roed2.jpg

In his mind, he did have the best intentions. I guess I should have included "in his mind".

PoliCon
06-08-2009, 12:37 PM
has anyone read Coulter's article on this subject?

hazlnut
06-08-2009, 01:23 PM
I don't think it matters. I don't ever see abortion going away.

Exactly. I don't like how Tiller pushed the legal envelope and I don't believe that every late term he performed was for the extreme medical scenarios that reasonable people believe are understandable and very sad.

But this hard-liner rhetoric of painting every women and girl who walks into a clinic as an irresponsible tramp gains little ground for pro-lifers.

I especially can't stand hearing from people without kids. You really don't know what you're talking about in terms of the many complex emotional, psychological, and medical issues involved in a pregnancy.

Put down the 'baby killer' signs and become a foster parent or adopt a child.

FlaGator
06-08-2009, 01:56 PM
In his mind, he did have the best intentions. I guess I should have included "in his mind".

From what I have been reading about the guy, he has spent most of his life angry at something or another and he was angry with abortionists at the time he went off the deep end. He hates government and he falsely views religion as a mechanism that allows him to stand against all government rule. He has obviously never actually comprehended that the New Testament stays just the opposite.

MrsSmith
06-08-2009, 05:01 PM
Exactly. I don't like how Tiller pushed the legal envelope and I don't believe that every late term he performed was for the extreme medical scenarios that reasonable people believe are understandable and very sad.

But this hard-liner rhetoric of painting every women and girl who walks into a clinic as an irresponsible tramp gains little ground for pro-lifers.

I especially can't stand hearing from people without kids. You really don't know what you're talking about in terms of the many complex emotional, psychological, and medical issues involved in a pregnancy.

Put down the 'baby killer' signs and become a foster parent or adopt a child.
I'm sure you're aware that most pro-life people HAVE adopted and/or fostered kids, right? You're aware that they donate time and money to pregnancy centers to assist pregnant women with pre-natal care? You're aware that they donate "after-birth" items like diapers, clothing, formula, baby furniture? You're aware that they run and donate to food pantries? That many churches and pro-life organizations will assist people with adoption costs? That they have funds set up to assist with all kinds of other expenses like utilities and rent, in addition to providing shelters? Then they ALSO do what they legally can to talk women into letting their babies live. Wow, such nasty people. I'm sure NONE of them have gone through the complex emotional, psychological, and medical issues involved in a pregnancy. :rolleyes:


Speaking as a pro-lifer who has gone through all the complex emotional, psychological, and medical issues involved in 7 pregnancies, ending with 5 living children and 2 that were miscarried, I can assure you that abortion is NEVER the answer. NEVER! So a woman is broke (except she can come up with enough to kill the kid), no boyfriend for support, no family for support...so what?? There is help available everywhere!! I have been there, and I know from first-hand experience that any woman worth that term can make it. I've been faced with very tough choices multiple times, and in no case would I have killed a child AFTER birth for financial reasons...so there is no excuse for killing one BEFORE birth for financial reasons. Our sick, sick society pushes that answer as the "easy out," and millions upon millions of women have bought that lie.

Lars1701a
06-08-2009, 06:04 PM
This another one of your "not up for discussion" statements, little man? There are plenty of viable options to avert an abortion, none of which involve one of the greatest sins you can possibly commit.

What have you ever done to end a single abortion? For myself, I offer financial support to anyone I know that decides to go through with the pregnancy. Our church runs a hotline for women that need counseling, which I've volunteered for a few times.

I suppose it's easier to just toss out trite little one liners and go back to living in your mother's basement playing WoW, and act like you give a shit. Put up or shut up.

First off WC err thinker what do I do to stop abortion? I dont get women pregnant in the first place. I still have not heard what you would do to end abortion. What you said only helps to stop a few here and there but what idea's do you have to end it for good? If you dont have any please dont ridicule a man thats a real go getter :)

My Mother is dead so it would be pretty hard playing wow in her basement. I get paid to play wow so fuck off and die.

Lars1701a
06-08-2009, 06:10 PM
There are plenty of churches that don't take a stand on abortion. There are even more that don't ask too many questions of their members about their political beliefs or professional practices.

If you are in some hippy do as you want church I can see but correct me if I am wrong Jesus loved children and said what you do to the least among us you do to me.

IMHO No Bible believing Christian church would accept this murderer. I dont know why they dont change the name of this board to Moderateunderground. :rolleyes:


Enplane to me if its alright to take up arms to overthrow a Dictator and kill people while doing it, its a grievous sin to take up arms to end murdering children? unless most here just pay lip service to that whole murdering thing. If I could get away with it I would prolly do it.

linda22003
06-08-2009, 06:28 PM
If I could get away with it I would prolly (sic) do it.

The actual murderer went ahead and did it without regard to whether he'd get caught (which didn't take long at all), so at least he had the courage of his convictions. You just type bravely. :p

Lars1701a
06-08-2009, 06:34 PM
The actual murderer went ahead and did it without regard to whether he'd get caught (which didn't take long at all), so at least he had the courage of his convictions. You just type bravely. :p

Fuck that no way I am going to prison. :p


Jesus I just agreed with the guy for crying out loud, I am not saying I would repeat what he did. You know you can agree without killing someone. :rolleyes:

marinejcksn
06-08-2009, 06:38 PM
People like this are no better than men like Tiller who murder babies. Anyone involved should be prosecuted and punished IMO.

linda22003
06-08-2009, 07:21 PM
I am not saying I would repeat what he did. You know you can agree without killing someone. :rolleyes:

Oh, then what did "If I could get away with it, I would 'prolly' do it" mean? :confused:

Lars1701a
06-08-2009, 07:36 PM
Oh, then what did "If I could get away with it, I would 'prolly' do it" mean? :confused:

I am yanking someones chain lindaliteral calm down.

Space Gravy
06-08-2009, 07:52 PM
The actual murderer went ahead and did it without regard to whether he'd get caught (which didn't take long at all), so at least he had the courage of his convictions. You just type bravely. :p

OT: By the way. Welcome back. Any pictures from your trip?

Rockntractor
06-08-2009, 07:53 PM
My opinion on this matter is just an opinion no more no less. I feel abortion is wrong it is plane and simple a human is being formed. I don’t know when God issues souls. In the Psalms God said he knew me in my mothers womb that leads me to believe he was referring to me as a complete being body and soul.
Do I have a responsibility to prevent other people from getting abortions? To me the answer is yes but it is limited. I vote for prolife candidates in elections And I have never encouraged a woman to have an abortion. I feel no responsibility to protest at abortion clinics or kill abortion providers. As far as the murderer goes he is guilty of the same crime as the women that go to the fetus extermination centers, those who encourage them and the staff of those establishments. The people that have abortions are in most cases liberal, agnostic, self-centered hedonists that are no big loss when they step out of the gene pool. When they get old they will realize the disservice they did themselves when the children they did not abort decide to euphemize them to keep from having to pay for taking care of them.

CorwinK
06-08-2009, 08:03 PM
I cant for the life of me understand why a Christian Church would allow this man in until he at least stop murdering unborn babies. In WC's err thinkers mind a church should be fine with his "job".

Because it is not up to the church to decide who comes, and who goes. It is not on the church to bestow judgement, that right is for God and God alone. No man has the authority to deny any man the right to seek salvation, especially when every believer knows that God would have worked with Dr. Tiller in his own good time and in his own way.

MrsSmith
06-08-2009, 08:46 PM
Because it is not up to the church to decide who comes, and who goes. It is not on the church to bestow judgement, that right is for God and God alone. No man has the authority to deny any man the right to seek salvation, especially when every believer knows that God would have worked with Dr. Tiller in his own good time and in his own way.
Well...sort of. It's true that churches are open to all, and love to have new sinners join their ranks, and are highly unlikely to ask anyone to stop coming to church...still, most churches would NOT have an unrepentant sinner as any type of "authority." Someone who continues to live a sinful life would not become a deacon, or an usher, or a teacher, or any other type of leader. They would probably not even be able to host a class in their home(s.) The fact that Tiller's church let him be an usher says very bad things about them. Tiller's ill-gotten profits may have bought him immunity from prosecution in Kansas, and a cushy place in his church building...but they won't buy him anything when he stands in front of the Throne of Judgement. And we, as Christians, should be praying for mercy on his soul.

thinker
06-08-2009, 09:21 PM
First off WC err thinker what do I do to stop abortion? I dont get women pregnant in the first place.

So what you're saying is that you don't do jack, except try and play hit and run keyboard w4rrior on an anonymous Internet forum? Gee, sounds like you have real moral standing to talk--not.


I still have not heard what you would do to end abortion. What you said only helps to stop a few here and there but what idea's do you have to end it for good?

Let me get this straight - you're all for a man doing what he can to "stop a few here and there" when it involves killing another human being, but you belittle someone when they do the same to try and actually save a life?

Are you sure you're a Christian?

Because you sound like an atheistic little punk that runs and looks up a line of Scripture off Google whenever your whacked out little worldview gets questioned by anyone with a jot of common sense. Incidentally, this would explain why you're completely, totally ignorant of the fact that many respectable versions of the Bible interpret the Sixth Commandment as "Thou shalt not kill" as opposed to the one you so passionately (if passively) support.


If you dont have any please dont ridicule a man thats a real go getter :)

Whatever, troll.


My Mother is dead so it would be pretty hard playing wow in her basement. I get paid to play wow so fuck off and die.

AXLE! Hi, buddy! You making much money in Second Life, too?...how do you live off that 10.00 USD you make a week? O.o

Here's a hint: Grow up, get a real job, and then come back here and start trying to post that morally superior bullsnot again. At least 90% of the individuals on this board that hold views similar to yours have been there and done that - you're just a pathetic little kid that lets someone else pay the bills while they do whatever the hell they feel like.

thinker
06-08-2009, 09:25 PM
I dont know why they dont change the name of this board to Moderateunderground.

By that admittedly simplistic reasoning, since you're here they should change it to Idiotunderground.


If I could get away with it I would prolly do it.

Wuss. You're nothing but talk. Have you ever even fired a weapon before, tool? No, your mouse does not count. Neither does your Xbox 360 controller.

linda22003
06-08-2009, 09:48 PM
OT: By the way. Welcome back. Any pictures from your trip?

Lots, still going through them. It was great!

Rockntractor
06-08-2009, 09:49 PM
Lots, still going through them. It was great!

Did you get some moose leather sheets?

hazlnut
06-08-2009, 10:46 PM
I'm sure you're aware that most pro-life people HAVE adopted and/or fostered kids, right?

No, I wasn't. That's outstanding. Do you have any stats on that?



You're aware that they donate time and money to pregnancy centers to assist pregnant women with pre-natal care? You're aware that they donate "after-birth" items like diapers, clothing, formula, baby furniture? You're aware that they run and donate to food pantries?

Yes, as do I, through a Catholic charity that helps underage girls carry to term.



That many churches and pro-life organizations will assist people with adoption costs? That they have funds set up to assist with all kinds of other expenses like utilities and rent, in addition to providing shelters? Then they ALSO do what they legally can to talk women into letting their babies live. Wow, such nasty people. I'm sure NONE of them have gone through the complex emotional, psychological, and medical issues involved in a pregnancy.

Well, I guess I'm one of those nasty people then, because I've been a foster parent and I have an adopted child. And I work with the charity mentioned above.



Speaking as a pro-lifer who has gone through all the complex emotional, psychological, and medical issues involved in 7 pregnancies, ending with 5 living children and 2 that were miscarried, I can assure you that abortion is NEVER the answer. NEVER!

Lethal congenital ichthyosis, anomalous fetus, mummified fetus, lithopedion, emphysematous/putrescent fetus, other severe birth defects, heart, lung, neurological defects, rape, incest... Are situations I would not even question a woman/girl's decision.


So a woman is broke (except she can come up with enough to kill the kid), no boyfriend for support, no family for support...so what?? There is help available everywhere!! I have been there, and I know from first-hand experience that any woman worth that term can make it. I've been faced with very tough choices multiple times, and in no case would I have killed a child AFTER birth for financial reasons...so there is no excuse for killing one BEFORE birth for financial reasons. Our sick, sick society pushes that answer as the "easy out," and millions upon millions of women have bought that lie.

I agree with you here. Although I could not ever force someone to carry to term. The best I can do is work with an support a charity that helps girls carry to term, offering the type of assistance you mentioned.

MrsSmith
06-08-2009, 11:25 PM
No, I wasn't. That's outstanding. Do you have any stats on that?
Strangely enough, I couldn't find stats online. In person, I know a large number of pro-life people that have done either, or both. Maybe the stats aren't available because it's illegal to question people about their religious beliefs on adoption forms?




Lethal congenital ichthyosis, anomalous fetus, mummified fetus, lithopedion, emphysematous/putrescent fetus, other severe birth defects, heart, lung, neurological defects, rape, incest... Are situations I would not even question a woman/girl's decision.

There has never been any problem with "aborting" an infant that is already dead. Aside from that, why is it OK to kill the defective child before birth when we wouldn't kill him or her after the birth? And why would we kill a child due to the sin of the father? The child involved was not the one that raped...talk about carrying the sins of the fathers down to the children...




I agree with you here. Although I could not ever force someone to carry to term. The best I can do is work with an support a charity that helps girls carry to term, offering the type of assistance you mentioned.
You could never "force" someone to carry to term...yet you would certainly have a problem with someone who decided to kill the child after the birth. What difference does the child's location make?

hazlnut
06-09-2009, 12:04 AM
There has never been any problem with "aborting" an infant that is already dead. Aside from that, why is it OK to kill the defective child before birth when we wouldn't kill him or her after the birth? And why would we kill a child due to the sin of the father? The child involved was not the one that raped...talk about carrying the sins of the fathers down to the children...

Are you familiar with some of the defects and medical issues I listed? If you google them, I wouldn't look at the pictures.

Honestly, my feeling on abortion in cases of severe birth defects or other extreme medical issues comes from my belief that God would not want a child to suffer needlessly. God gave us minds to perfect advance medicine, and hearts to use as our guides as to when it is appropriate to use this knowledge. We help the elderly, cancer patients, Alzheimer's patients, to pass on painlessly and with dignity.

Again, I don't care for the way Tiller pushed the legal/ethical boundary. However, since none of us have access to the private medical files of his patients, we have no way to know which cases were legitimate medical complications and rape/incest issues, and which were abortions of 'convenience' which I do not agree with.


You could never "force" someone to carry to term...yet you would certainly have a problem with someone who decided to kill the child after the birth. What difference does the child's location make?

This is the way I look at it, abortion is the taking of human life. Murdering a child is murder.

Remember, I'm coming at this as someone who, as a foster parent, has seen the worst of the worst in terms of neglet and abuse. I'm talking kids chained to tables, locked in footlockers overnight. I'm not saying that those children would have been better off aborted, it just puts a face on an unwanted child for me.

If God has a plan for all of us, then who am I to intervene and force my beliefs or my will on someone else, as Scott Roeder did. I can only be a living example in my own life and through my own actions.

The charity I mentioned doesn't call itself pro-life--just Catholics offering help to those who need it.

Lars1701a
06-09-2009, 05:09 AM
So what you're saying is that you don't do jack, except try and play hit and run keyboard w4rrior on an anonymous Internet forum? Gee, sounds like you have real moral standing to talk--not.



Let me get this straight - you're all for a man doing what he can to "stop a few here and there" when it involves killing another human being, but you belittle someone when they do the same to try and actually save a life?

Are you sure you're a Christian?

Because you sound like an atheistic little punk that runs and looks up a line of Scripture off Google whenever your whacked out little worldview gets questioned by anyone with a jot of common sense. Incidentally, this would explain why you're completely, totally ignorant of the fact that many respectable versions of the Bible interpret the Sixth Commandment as "Thou shalt not kill" as opposed to the one you so passionately (if passively) support.



Whatever, troll.



AXLE! Hi, buddy! You making much money in Second Life, too?...how do you live off that 10.00 USD you make a week? O.o

Here's a hint: Grow up, get a real job, and then come back here and start trying to post that morally superior bullsnot again. At least 90% of the individuals on this board that hold views similar to yours have been there and done that - you're just a pathetic little kid that lets someone else pay the bills while they do whatever the hell they feel like.


Pal I work for a living what do you do?

I dont play second life, I have really no idea what that is.

Wc you should come out of the closet and admit it.

Well I am old school and believe it was ment to be "thou shalt not murder" but you keep trying to force others to believe what you believe.

When I asked what you do to end the practice I ment OUTLAW it douche bag. I dont really believe a word you say so please F$%k off :)

Lars1701a
06-09-2009, 05:13 AM
AXLE! Hi, buddy! You making much money in Second Life, too?...how do you live off that 10.00 USD you make a week? O.o



Well since you know how this game works you must be pretty good at it? :eek:

I drive for a living bag-o-douche. when I am sitting and getting paid to get my truck loaded I play :p

Sure seems like I have worked you up into a lather. :D

linda22003
06-09-2009, 07:58 AM
The first time someone asked me if I had heard about "Second Life", I thought it was some born-again Christian thing. :D

thinker
06-09-2009, 10:26 AM
I fix the computers you post on. The only reason I've got any idea about Second Life is because you've got that 30 page thread going in the lounge ;)

As for you being "old school", the only way that makes any possible sense is if you're saying you're a firm believer in the Old Testament as opposed to the New...because "thou shalt not kill" is an older interpretation than "thou shalt not murder".

I dare you to post where I attempt to "force" someone to believe the viewpoint I support; I've only ever pointed out that it's an interpretation-which by nature means it's just one perspective. Me stating that it's a legitimate one =/= forcing in on anyone, except maybe by threatening your vanishingly narrow worldview.

I still do more than you do with regards to abortion and the prevention thereof, so trying to cuss me out only makes you look like an even bigger tool.

And lather? Kid, you're the one spewing curses. I'm just having fun picking your little idiosyncratic b.s. apart.

Shannon
06-09-2009, 05:39 PM
AXLE! Hi, buddy! You making much money in Second Life, too?...how do you live off that 10.00 USD you make a week? O.o



Well since you know how this game works you must be pretty good at it? :eek:

I drive for a living bag-o-douche. when I am sitting and getting paid to get my truck loaded I play :p

Sure seems like I have worked you up into a lather. :D

I don't know why you insist that he is CW. This is how CW would have responded:

Ah, that explains why my pizza is always cold.

Lars1701a
06-09-2009, 06:14 PM
I fix the computers you post on. The only reason I've got any idea about Second Life is because you've got that 30 page thread going in the lounge ;)

As for you being "old school", the only way that makes any possible sense is if you're saying you're a firm believer in the Old Testament as opposed to the New...because "thou shalt not kill" is an older interpretation than "thou shalt not murder".

I dare you to post where I attempt to "force" someone to believe the viewpoint I support; I've only ever pointed out that it's an interpretation-which by nature means it's just one perspective. Me stating that it's a legitimate one =/= forcing in on anyone, except maybe by threatening your vanishingly narrow worldview.

I still do more than you do with regards to abortion and the prevention thereof, so trying to cuss me out only makes you look like an even bigger tool.

And lather? Kid, you're the one spewing curses. I'm just having fun picking your little idiosyncratic b.s. apart.

I've got a 30 page thread? thats news to me, I for the life of me dont know anything about the game. I might have posted a witty post but I didnt start one.

I am no kid punk. Spewing curses is just my way of telling you what an asshat I think you are. IF you want me to use 30 cent words I can do that.

thinker
06-09-2009, 06:28 PM
Your posts prove what your individual words and statements deny. You might be old, but you're still just a punk kid.

Rockntractor
06-09-2009, 07:07 PM
The first time someone asked me if I had heard about "Second Life", I thought it was some born-again Christian thing. :D
Thats funny . That was my first thought to.

MrsSmith
06-09-2009, 07:43 PM
Are you familiar with some of the defects and medical issues I listed? If you google them, I wouldn't look at the pictures.

Honestly, my feeling on abortion in cases of severe birth defects or other extreme medical issues comes from my belief that God would not want a child to suffer needlessly. God gave us minds to perfect advance medicine, and hearts to use as our guides as to when it is appropriate to use this knowledge. We help the elderly, cancer patients, Alzheimer's patients, to pass on painlessly and with dignity.


We don't stick needles in their hearts and inject a drug that will cause the heart muscles to contract hard enough to explode. This is the method of choice for killing infants that are past the mid-point in Mom's pregnancy. This may be easier on the parents, but it is not painless for the child. Perhaps you can quote some NT scripture where God says that we know better than He about the time when a human should die? My belief is that God is in control, and our time to go home is in His hands. Any action we take to hurry that time for another person is murder. I will admit that a terminally ill patient should have the right to choose that we do not intervene to continue his or her life, but we don't have the right to make that choice for someone else unless the person is actually braindead.

And I am familiar with the defects you listed...and I looked at the pictures. I agree that some conditions would be horrible for the parents. However, there are many horrible conditions discovered after birth, and we don't kill people for them. The child involved is the same person before birth as after. Moving that child out of Mom does not suddenly create a human being, the child is the same child before the move.




Again, I don't care for the way Tiller pushed the legal/ethical boundary. However, since none of us have access to the private medical files of his patients, we have no way to know which cases were legitimate medical complications and rape/incest issues, and which were abortions of 'convenience' which I do not agree with.



This is the way I look at it, abortion is the taking of human life. Murdering a child is murder.

Remember, I'm coming at this as someone who, as a foster parent, has seen the worst of the worst in terms of neglet and abuse. I'm talking kids chained to tables, locked in footlockers overnight. I'm not saying that those children would have been better off aborted, it just puts a face on an unwanted child for me.

If God has a plan for all of us, then who am I to intervene and force my beliefs or my will on someone else, as Scott Roeder did. I can only be a living example in my own life and through my own actions.

The charity I mentioned doesn't call itself pro-life--just Catholics offering help to those who need it.

Scott Roeder was wrong, 2 wrongs do not make a right, though I am happy that the clinic will not be reopened.

Pro-life people may be perceived as forcing our beliefs on others, but pro-abortion people are actually forcing death upon millions of children every year. I wouldn't be OK with people chaining kids to tables, locking them in overnight, or killing them...at any stage of life. Abortion has been advertised as a way to make sure "all children are wanted children," and yet, the abuse, the neglect, the unwanted children continue on and on. Abortion will never end the problem of unwanted kids. Telling people that kids are a punishment, that kids are worth so little that they can be legally murdered before birth, that having children is selfish and "bad for the planet" can only add to the problem. The best solution to unwanted children is the biblical one...that all children are blessings from God, that no child is ever a mistake (getting pregnant may be a mistake, but he resulting child cannot be a mistake), and honoring good parents MORE than those that discard their kids, either before or after birth, for financial reasons.

PoliCon
06-09-2009, 07:59 PM
Honestly, my feeling on abortion in cases of severe birth defects or other extreme medical issues comes from my belief that God would not want a child to suffer needlessly. And yet you seem to have no compunctions about inducing a breach birth - jamming scissors into the back of a babies head and sucking out their brains. No undo suffering there. Nope. NONE AT ALL. :rolleyes:

thinker
06-09-2009, 08:06 PM
Just saying, I have problems even reading that statement - it makes me physically ill. As I'm sure it does to anyone with small children.

linda22003
06-10-2009, 09:11 AM
I don't know why you insist that he is CW. This is how CW would have responded:

Ah, that explains why my pizza is always cold.

PERFECT impersonation, Shannon. Perfect. :p

Shannon
06-10-2009, 09:18 AM
PERFECT impersonation, Shannon. Perfect. :p

Well, I thought so.:D

NJCardFan
06-10-2009, 11:45 AM
My question is what kind of person was Tiller to even want to perform this? It's repugnant on so many levels.

AmPat
06-11-2009, 03:28 AM
What about the Murderous volunteer / abortion crusader who volunteered to take his place? Barbie meets Goebbels. :eek:

PoliCon
06-11-2009, 06:56 PM
What about the Murderous volunteer / abortion crusader who volunteered to take his place? Barbie meets Goebbels. :eek:
link?

MrsSmith
06-11-2009, 09:08 PM
link?

Maybe this...
Nebraska doc plans to offer 3rd-term abortions in Kansas (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-06-10-abortions-nebraska_N.htm?csp=34)

PoliCon
06-12-2009, 12:49 AM
Maybe this...
Nebraska doc plans to offer 3rd-term abortions in Kansas (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-06-10-abortions-nebraska_N.htm?csp=34)

dear lord have you seen the pictures? that man is Creeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeppppppyyyyyyyyyyy!

Japandroid
06-12-2009, 10:47 AM
The only people celebrating the deaths of at the recruitment center: extremists.
The only people celebrating the death of George Tiller: you guessed it.

None of you realize how crazy you all actually are.

gator
06-12-2009, 11:18 AM
The only people celebrating the deaths of at the recruitment center: extremists.
The only people celebrating the death of George Tiller: you guessed it.

None of you realize how crazy you all actually are.

I don't consider the celebration that a killer of 60,000 children was stopped from killing other children to be an extremist position.

I do feel that celebrating the murder of two US Servicemen to be an extremist’s position.

You evidently have a different set of values than me.

MrsSmith
06-12-2009, 07:07 PM
The only people celebrating the deaths of at the recruitment center: extremists.
The only people celebrating the death of George Tiller: you guessed it.

None of you realize how crazy you all actually are.
Not as crazy as androids. Especially androids that lie. :rolleyes: Maybe you could name the ALL of us that are celebrating...and provide proof? :rolleyes: