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megimoo
06-08-2009, 11:47 AM
Israelis Fear obama Could Cut Financial Support

Iseral's economy, unscathed by costly wars in Lebanon and Gaza, faces a new challenge, this time from an ally, the United States. Differences with President barack obama over Jewish settlement of occupied Weat Bank land that Palestinians want for a state has some experts predicting a price in terms of U.S. fiscal support and Investment fot Israel

http://www.newsmax.com/headlines/obama_settlements_support/2009/06/07/222495.html

Jfor
06-08-2009, 11:49 AM
Cue Gator to spew his hate.

WatersEdge
06-08-2009, 12:56 PM
[SIZE="3"][I]Israelis Fear obama Could Cut Financial Support

---Obama doesn't have the power to cut financial support to Israel, and Congress would never pass such a measure. We need to consistently help our our friends in Israel so that no harm comes to them.

We need to back-off from any kind of negotiations with the Palestinians because they are just lazy terrorists who will never change their tune nor work to improve their lives. They do not have any claim to Israeli territory, whatsoever. We should not deal with nor negotiate with Terrorists.

Long Live Israel.

megimoo
06-08-2009, 12:59 PM
---Obama doesn't have the power to cut financial support ot Israel, and Congress would never pass such a measure. We need to consistently help our our friends in Israel so that no harm comes to them.
We need to back-off from any kind of negotiations with the Palestinians because they are just lazy terrorists who will never change their tune. They do not have any claim to Israel territory, whatsoever. We should not deal with nor negotiate with Terrorists.

Long Live Israel.Standby for incoming fire !!

WatersEdge
06-08-2009, 01:02 PM
Standby for incoming fire !!

Huh?

Oh, do you mean what the Israelis (and especially the hardworking farmers on the Kibbut)unfortunately exlaim as the kassongs are fired-in from the arabs? They have warning sirens, but sometimes the warnings come too late.

The Palestinians need to move or bow in great thanks for any morsel of land they are bestowed by Israel.

Jfor
06-08-2009, 01:05 PM
Huh?

Oh, do you mean what the Israelis (and especially the hardworking farmers on the Kibbut)unfortunately exlaim as the kassongs are fired-in from the arabs? They have warning sirens, but sometimes the warnings come too late.

The Palestinians need to move or bow in great thanks for any morsel of land they are bestowed by Israel.

Megimoo means from the anti-semitic gator who will call you all kinds of names under the sun because he hates Jews and anybody that supports Israel.

WatersEdge
06-08-2009, 01:19 PM
Megimoo means from the anti-semitic gator who will call you all kinds of names under the sun because he hates Jews and anybody that supports Israel.

--Oh. :eek:


:D

Whoever that is..........

Jfor
06-08-2009, 01:20 PM
Just look for his name and read all his lunatic rants

WatersEdge
06-08-2009, 01:21 PM
Just look for his name and read all his lunatic rants

Okay just did.

He's operating under several false assumptions.

1) "Gator" is upset that the USS Liberty was bombed, knowingly, by the Israelis. This terrible accident during wartime was has been fully explained for many, many years. The case has been officially closed long ago. It was a case of mistaken identity. The Israelis thought it was an agressor since the ship was unidentified. They thought it was of Egyptian descent.

2) Israel is our staunchest ally in that region of the world. They are our good friends with common interests of democracy and preservation of history. We must never waiver in our support of Israel.

noonwitch
06-08-2009, 01:44 PM
We need to back-off from any kind of negotiations with the Palestinians because they are just lazy terrorists who will never change their tune nor work to improve their lives. They do not have any claim to Israeli territory, whatsoever. We should not deal with nor negotiate with Terrorists.

Long Live Israel.

All the palestineans are terrorists? Even the christians?

It's not that simple. Israel was founded in 1948 by people who weren't born there. They don't have much more of a claim than the palestineans. I'm pretty neutral on the issue-I want both sides to stop killing each other. I recognize that the palestineans use some pretty deplorable tactics against the Israelis-strapping bombs onto their kids and sending them into crowded areas is about as awful as it gets. Not all the palestineans are involved in terrorist attacks against Israel-should they all be punished along with those who are guilty? When the Israeli army tears down the home of the relative of an alleged terrorist, that is what they are doing, punishing the innocent for the actions of the guilty. And every time the Israelis do something like that, they lose support in this country and in Europe, where the countries are no longer basing their policy toward Israel on collective guilt feelings over the Holocaust.


God help us all if they ever find substantial amounts of oil under Israel.

megimoo
06-08-2009, 02:42 PM
All the palestineans are terrorists? Even the christians?

It's not that simple. Israel was founded in 1948 by people who weren't born there. They don't have much more of a claim than the palestineans. I'm pretty neutral on the issue-I want both sides to stop killing each other. I recognize that the palestineans use some pretty deplorable tactics against the Israelis-strapping bombs onto their kids and sending them into crowded areas is about as awful as it gets. Not all the palestineans are involved in terrorist attacks against Israel-should they all be punished along with those who are guilty? When the Israeli army tears down the home of the relative of an alleged terrorist, that is what they are doing, punishing the innocent for the actions of the guilty. And every time the Israelis do something like that, they lose support in this country and in Europe, where the countries are no longer basing their policy toward Israel on collective guilt feelings over the Holocaust.


God help us all if they ever find substantial amounts of oil under Israel.

" Israel was founded in 1948 by people who weren't born there"...............Are you slow or confused ?

Are you even aware of the Nation of Israel,King Solomon,David,The Messianic Promises of GOD ?Of Abraham,Isaac,Jacob/Israel,The twelve Tribes of Israel,the Diaspora,First by Nebakaneza then by Nero ?

1 Kings 6:1 (King James Version)
1And it came to pass in the four hundred and eightieth year after the children of Israel were come out of the land of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon's reign over Israel, in the month Zif, which is the second month, that he began to build the house of the LORD.

The date of Solomon's Temple has been fixed by archaeology at 961 BC and simple maths, in adding 480 years to that arrives at the 1441 BC date for the Exodus and of course, the Passover which immediately preceded it. It must be remembered that the Israelites, for all their faults, were careful and accurate historians, and were careful about accurate transmission of data.

Further evidences which support the 1441 BC passover and Exodus are these:

1. Egypt, having gone through a period of great expansion, and military success and building works under Thutmose III went through a period of decline immediately after the Exodus. The Exodus having occurred during the reign of Amenhotep II c. 1450-1425 BC. This would correlate well, both with the plagues, the death of the firstborn and the loss of an army, as well as the loss of a major population of slaves.
(1450-1425 BC)

gator
06-08-2009, 02:53 PM
Okay just did.

He's operating under several false assumptions.

1) "Gator" is upset that the USS Liberty was bombed, knowingly, by the Israelis. This terrible accident during wartime was has been fully explained for many, many years. The case has been officially closed long ago. It was a case of mistaken identity. The Israelis thought it was an agressor since the ship was unidentified. They thought it was of Egyptian descent.

2) Israel is our staunchest ally in that region of the world. They are our good friends with common interests of democracy and preservation of history. We must never waiver in our support of Israel.

I don't think my assumptions are false at all. In fact I think that the opposite is true in that you donít understand anything at all about Israel.

There is tremendous evidence that the attack on the USS Liberty was done on purpose. It has been investigated and questioned by men of such stature as a Chairman of the Joint Chief of Staff and the Assistant Commander of the Marine Corps, who, by the way, is a Congressional Medal of Honor awardee.

If you go and look at in the CU archives you will see that I posted a tremendous amount of information on the attack, including eyewitness accounting and debunking of the Israelis apologists. If you think you know something about the attack then it would be amusing if you would start a thread so I could enlighten you on the facts of the attack and the cover up.

As far as Israel being an ally you must be crazy. We are fighting Israel's enemies and they cooperate with us. Hardly a definition of an ďallyĒ. We give Israel money and they let us help them. We get nothing for it and the bastards get to live well.

They were not much of an ally when they attacked an American ship and killed 34 American sailors and then lied about it, were they? They werenít much of an ally when they demanded huge payments for the After Action Reports on their success against Syrian MiGs during the 1970s air campaign, were they? They were not much of an ally when they stole military secrets from the US and sold it to the Soviets, were they? They werenít much of an ally when they sold American military technology to the Chinese, were they?

They are not much of an ally when they running a money scam in our country. The scam of giving millions of dollars to our elected representatives to buy their support and getting billions of dollars in aid.

WatersEdge
06-08-2009, 03:27 PM
All the palestineans are terrorists? Even the christians?
--No, just anyone associated wth Hamas or Hezbollah. Guess who they get money from? Iran.



It's not that simple. Israel was founded in 1948 by people who weren't born there.
--Actually Israel has had claim to its Land since Biblical times. The year of 1948 was their victory of independence in the eyes of the world to formally legitimize themselves with the League of Nations and the UN.



They don't have much more of a claim than the palestineans.
:D Of course they do. It's their Land. The Palestinians are a nomadic bunch of troublemakers who have no legal leg of historical ownership to stand upon.



I'm pretty neutral on the issue-I want both sides to stop killing each other.
--And Israel would be fine with that. However, Palestinians do not have the courage or the wherewithal to stop the violence and to build their own communities. All they want to do is create terrorists and to cowardly launch rockets towards Israel. Until Israel swats them down, again.

WatersEdge
06-08-2009, 03:45 PM
I don't think my assumptions are false at all.
--However they most certainly are.

The USS Liberty was mistakenly fired upon. Tragedy happens during war. Just look at what happened to Tillman in Afghanistan. Terrible mistake. Look at any 'friendly fire' tragedies. They happen during War. Sad and entirely regrettable.



In fact I think that the opposite is true in that you don’t understand anything at all about Israel.
We all have our opinions. I however personally favor facts.



As far as Israel being an ally you must be crazy.
--I guess so. Same with the untold milllions who have and always will support our friendship with Israel. The US will always support Israel.

That'll never change; that'll never diminish.

thinker
06-08-2009, 03:48 PM
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee12/sholesshs/Smileys/popcorn.gif

noonwitch
06-08-2009, 04:28 PM
" Israel was founded in 1948 by people who weren't born there"...............Are you slow or confused ?

Are you even aware of the Nation of Israel,King Solomon,David,The Messianic Promises of GOD ?Of Abraham,Isaac,Jacob/Israel,The twelve Tribes of Israel,the Diaspora,First by Nebakaneza then by Nero ?

1 Kings 6:1 (King James Version)
1And it came to pass in the four hundred and eightieth year after the children of Israel were come out of the land of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon's reign over Israel, in the month Zif, which is the second month, that he began to build the house of the LORD.

The date of Solomon's Temple has been fixed by archaeology at 961 BC and simple maths, in adding 480 years to that arrives at the 1441 BC date for the Exodus and of course, the Passover which immediately preceded it. It must be remembered that the Israelites, for all their faults, were careful and accurate historians, and were careful about accurate transmission of data.

Further evidences which support the 1441 BC passover and Exodus are these:

1. Egypt, having gone through a period of great expansion, and military success and building works under Thutmose III went through a period of decline immediately after the Exodus. The Exodus having occurred during the reign of Amenhotep II c. 1450-1425 BC. This would correlate well, both with the plagues, the death of the firstborn and the loss of an army, as well as the loss of a major population of slaves.
(1450-1425 BC)


Ancient history. The Babylonians, Greeks and Romans all stamped out the ancient nation of Israel, and the native jews were scattered across the Roman Empire after Titus and his army destroyed the temple in 70 AD.

The modern nation of Israel was founded in 1948 by survivors of the Holocaust. There were some native jews that had remained, but they were a vast minority by that point in time.

I'm very aware of the messages of the Hebrew scriptures, and the Christian scriptures, for that matter. Those are matters of faith, not matters to influence american foreign policy.

megimoo
06-08-2009, 06:26 PM
--However they most certainly are.

The USS Liberty was mistakenly fired upon. Tragedy happens during war. Just look at what happened to Tillman in Afghanistan. Terrible mistake. Look at any 'friendly fire' tragedies. They happen during War. Sad and entirely regrettable.


We all have our opinions. I however personally favor facts.


--I guess so. Same with the untold milllions who have and always will support our friendship with Israel. The US will always support Israel.

That'll never change; that'll never diminish.
It's a proven fact the the Israeli's knew that USS Liberty was an American ship that was intercepting the Israeli scrambled tank radio traffic from the battle on Golan Hights unscrambling it and uplinking it unscrambled to Rota Spain .

Israel had a spy in the Egyptian general staff that notified Israel of the fact that Egypt was monitoring the NSA traffic from the the NSA Net that Gator was listening to .Moshe Dyan the Israeli defence Mister went berserk when he was notified of the Egyptians were gathering Intel from Liberty and using it against his forces on the Golan Hights and he ordered the Israeli forces to silence the transmissions at all cost

.Liberty was attacked by air and sea and called for help from the nearby sixth fleet battle group .They launched an airstrike to defend liberty but it was recalled on route to Liberty by direct order from Washington.For political reasons President Johnson didn't want to embarrass Israel !

megimoo
06-08-2009, 06:53 PM
Ancient history. The Babylonians, Greeks and Romans all stamped out the ancient nation of Israel, and the native jews were scattered across the Roman Empire after Titus and his army destroyed the temple in 70 AD.

The modern nation of Israel was founded in 1948 by survivors of the Holocaust. There were some native jews that had remained, but they were a vast minority by that point in time.

I'm very aware of the messages of the Hebrew scriptures, and the Christian scriptures, for that matter. Those are matters of faith, not matters to influence american foreign policy.

As you say that you are aware of Israeli history then why do you have the audacity to say that the Palestinians have a better claim to Israel than the Israelis ?The Palestinians are not a people they are a collection of outcasts from Jordan,Iraq,Kuwait,Lebanon who were thrown out of Jordan for intrigues against the Jordanian Kingdom !They have a reputation as trouble makers where ever they have lived .They sided with Iraq during the invasion of Kuwait and were exiled from Kuwait after the war.
..........................
"I use "Palestinian" in quotes because there never was a country or nation known as PALESTINE. Never, ever. Israel was, and is, what people call "Palestine." The Romans renamed Israel to Syria-Palestina after they destroyed the 2nd temple in 70 CE and exiled most (but not all) of the Jewish residents people."
........................
http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/106742

gator
06-08-2009, 09:01 PM
As you say that you are aware of Israeli history then why do you have the audacity to say that the Palestinians have a better claim to Israel than the Israelis ?The Palestinians are not a people they are a collection of outcasts from Jordan,Iraq,Kuwait,Lebanon who were thrown out of Jordan for intrigues against the Jordanian Kingdom !They have a reputation as trouble makers where ever they have lived .They sided with Iraq during the invasion of Kuwait and were exiled from Kuwait after the war.
..........................
"I use "Palestinian" in quotes because there never was a country or nation known as PALESTINE. Never, ever. Israel was, and is, what people call "Palestine." The Romans renamed Israel to Syria-Palestina after they destroyed the 2nd temple in 70 CE and exiled most (but not all) of the Jewish residents people."
........................
http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/106742

I love it. When the goddamn Israelis want to damn their enemy they are not reluctant to use the term Palestinians. However, when they are trying to justify the European and Russian invasion they somehow manage to deny that the Palestinians ever existed.

The fact of the matter is that the Palestinians exist. They live under an apartheid controlled government that has been brutalizing and taking away their land for years. The US government has recognized them as a people.

They are the oppressed people. I doubt very few Americans would want to put up with the same shit the Palestinians have to put with on a daily basis.

Rockntractor
06-08-2009, 09:07 PM
I love it. When the goddamn Israelis want to damn their enemy they are not reluctant to use the term Palestinians. However, when they are trying to justify the European and Russian invasion they somehow manage to deny that the Palestinians ever existed.

The fact of the matter is that the Palestinians exist. They live under an apartheid controlled government that has been brutalizing and taking away their land for years. The US government has recognized them as a people.

They are the oppressed people. I doubt very few Americans would want to put up with the same shit the Palestinians have to put with on a daily basis.
You really need to try Hebrew national hot dogs they rock! Maybe you would like jews better then. I like them with sauerkraut.

Rockntractor
06-08-2009, 09:11 PM
http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv230/upyourstruly/hebrew.jpg?t=1244509774

Honestly! They will cure even the most hardcore anti-semetic!

gator
06-08-2009, 09:11 PM
You really need to try Hebrew national hot dogs they rock! Maybe you would like jews better then. I like them with sauerkraut.

I enjoy Hebrew national hot dogs. They are better than Ball Park franks.

I don't have anything against Jews. I just think Israel is a piece of shit Middle East country and I don't like that my tax money is being used to support their brutal apartheid theocracy regime. It is an American loving thing. You wouldn't understand.

Rockntractor
06-08-2009, 09:13 PM
I enjoy Hebrew national hot dogs. They are better than Ball Park franks.

I don't have anything against Jews. I just think Israel is a piece of shit Middle East country and I don't like that my tax money is being used to support their brutal apartheid theocracy regime. It is an American loving thing. You wouldn't understand.
Yeah! But we are agreed their hot dogs are great!

megimoo
06-08-2009, 09:30 PM
Yeah! But we are agreed their hot dogs are great!
No pork all beef watched over by a rabbi !

Rockntractor
06-08-2009, 09:32 PM
No pork all beef watched over by a rabbi !
Rich flavor perfect bun length. Crap it takes me 45 minutes to drive to the nearest store. You can't catch rabbis just by eating hot dogs . Don't worry!

megimoo
06-08-2009, 09:49 PM
Rich flavor perfect bun length. Crap it takes me 45 minutes to drive to the nearest store. You can't catch rabbis just by eating hot dogs . Don't worry!How do we know that the rabbe washed his hands after his last operation ?

Rockntractor
06-08-2009, 09:51 PM
I didn't read that last post and I refuse too.

thinker
06-08-2009, 09:53 PM
lol!

megimoo
06-08-2009, 10:21 PM
Dead In The Water - The Sinking of the USS Liberty
http://snardfarker.ning.com/video/dead-in-the-water-the-sinking
..........................................
snip

The Cover Up

Despite a near-universal consensus that the Israeli attack was made with full knowledge that USS Liberty was a US Navy ship, the Johnson administration began an immediate cover-up of this fact. Though administration officers continued individually to characterize the attack as deliberate, the Johnson administration never sought the prosecution of the guilty parties or otherwise attempted to seek justice for the victims. They concealed and altered evidence in their effort to downplay the attack. Though they never formally accepted the Israeli explanation that it was an accident, they never pressed for a full investigation either. They simply allowed those responsible literally to get away with murder.


In an ongoing effort to reveal the truth about the attack, the USS Liberty Veterans Association has filed with the Secretary of the Army in the manner prescribed by law a detailed, fully documented Report of War Crimes describing the circumstances of the attack on our ship and evidence that it was a crime under international law. In accordance with international law and treaties, the United States is obligated to investigate the allegations. So far, the United States has declined even to acknowledge that the report has been filed. The full text of the report can be found at http://www.gtr5.com/evidence/warcrimes.pdf

http://www.voteronpaul.com/newsDetail.php?USS-Liberty---Anniversary-of-Attack-1290

megimoo
06-08-2009, 10:41 PM
June 8, 1967 Attack on USS Liberty
.
On June 8, 1967, US Navy intelligence ship USS Liberty was suddenly and brutally attacked on the high seas in international waters by the air and naval forces of Israel. The Israeli forces attacked with full knowledge that this was an American ship and lied about it. Survivors have been forbidden for 40 years to tell their story under oath to the American public. The USS Liberty Memorial web site tells their story and is dedicated to the memory of the 34 brave men who died.

http://www.gtr5.com/

thinker
06-08-2009, 11:46 PM
I'm impressed, Meg. For once, you linked something that classifies as something worth reading, instead of complete tripe.

WatersEdge
06-09-2009, 01:10 AM
I enjoy Hebrew national hot dogs. They are better than Ball Park franks.
--Hebrew National Dogs are GREAT. Totally agree. However, hotdogs are best bought in the Ball Park - they just taste better than anything. However, in the store, Hebrew Dogs are better than any other store-bought dogs. Just wanted to clarify.



I don't have anything against Jews.
--I'm glad. And I'm Catholic. I don't have anything against them either. I pray for them.



I just think Israel is a piece of shit Middle East country
--And you have your opinion. Yet do you have any example outside of hot confused air to back-up your opinion? It's a ridiculous opinion given that Israel is the center of Religious historical significance and the grandeur of its incredible beauty of both land, sea and people dominate the entire 'middle east'.



and I don't like that my tax money is being used to support their brutal apartheid theocracy regime.
--What bogus Lib magazine did you pull that "apartheid" lingo from?
Ludicrous, at best. Did you even visit S. Africa during "apartheid"? I did. What is your beef with "apartheid"?
Please link to specific examples.

And I would highly suggest you get used to Israeli support of Israel by the U.S.
We must always support them and will always continue to do so in every manner possible.

gator
06-09-2009, 07:02 AM
--

--And you have your opinion. Yet do you have any example outside of hot confused air to back-up your opinion? It's a ridiculous opinion given that Israel is the center of Religious historical significance and the grandeur of its incredible beauty of both land, sea and people dominate the entire 'middle east'.

That is a bunch of bullshit. If you want to send your money to a country because, in your opinion, ďit is a "center of Religious historical significance and the grandeur of its incredible beauty of both land, sea and people dominate the entire 'middle east'", then that is fine. I don't have the same opinion.






--What bogus Lib magazine did you pull that "apartheid" lingo from?
Ludicrous, at best. Did you even visit S. Africa during "apartheid"? I did. What is your beef with "apartheid"?
Please link to specific examples.

The Israeli brutality and oppression of the Palestinians is well documented. I have participated in several 1,000 post threads where this subject was debated in great detail. Go look in the archives. I get tired of reeducating every new person on CU. I have been doing it for several years now.

If you want to discuss the brutality of the Israelis and if you want to do it in a reasonable manner then start another thread and I may participate in it if it interest me. I think you are one of these jerkoffs that have only bothered to listen to the Israel spin on their occupation and there are many facts that you don't understand. Before you start a thread go look at the archives.





And I would highly suggest you get used to Israeli support of Israel by the U.S.
We must always support them and will always continue to do so in every manner possible.

I understand very well that I am one of the few people in America that has moral clarity on Israel. I understand that the pro Israel PR department in America is going strong and that most people have no intention of getting their head out of their ass about Israel. It is sad but a fact of life.

As an American I understand the oppression of the Palestinians. As an American I understand that Israel is not morally the kind of country we need to be supporting.

As an American veteran I want to hold the bastards accountable for the murder of 34 of my fellow veterans.

As an American I understand that we should not be taking sides in a regional conflict that has nothing to do with our own security. Deciding to guarantee the security of Israel 40 years ago was like the worst foreign policy decision our country ever made. Our Founding Fathers must be turning over in their graves knowing we got in involved in that entanglement.

As an American I am tired of supporting a country that no better than the other countries in the region. They are all brutal theocracies that brutalize anyone that doesn't toe the line, whether it be Muslim, Christian or Jewish.

As an American I am getting tired of working hard for my money and then have some filthy politician give it to a filthy foreign government just because of campaign support.

As an American I am tired of borrowing money from the Chinese and then giving it to the goddamn Israelis so they can live well. Our children are going to be burdened with that debt. They are going to be poor and the goddamn Israelis are going to be rich. You do know that they led the world in the per capita generation of new millionaires last year, don't you?

Since you are new you have never heard me say what my agenda on Israel is. It is a simple one. It is a pro American agenda. There are only two things; justice for the crewmembers of the USS Liberty and stop the flow of American money to Israel and other Middle East countries. Any decent American would support those items.

SarasotaRepub
06-09-2009, 07:39 AM
Gator, please try and come up with some new stuff. You've done
this schick so many times already it isn't even interesting anymore. :p:D

noonwitch
06-09-2009, 10:21 AM
As you say that you are aware of Israeli history then why do you have the audacity to say that the Palestinians have a better claim to Israel than the Israelis ?The Palestinians are not a people they are a collection of outcasts from Jordan,Iraq,Kuwait,Lebanon who were thrown out of Jordan for intrigues against the Jordanian Kingdom !They have a reputation as trouble makers where ever they have lived .They sided with Iraq during the invasion of Kuwait and were exiled from Kuwait after the war.
..........................
"I use "Palestinian" in quotes because there never was a country or nation known as PALESTINE. Never, ever. Israel was, and is, what people call "Palestine." The Romans renamed Israel to Syria-Palestina after they destroyed the 2nd temple in 70 CE and exiled most (but not all) of the Jewish residents people."
........................
http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/106742


I didn't say that the Palestineans had a better claim to the land than the Israelis, I was actually putting both of their claims on equal terms.

Is it the modern world's responsibility to right the wrongs committed by the Roman Empire almost 2000 years ago? I accept that Israel is an established nation, it's way too late for the west to go back on that one. I'm just saying that the Palestineans also have a claim in modern times. Our policies should be those that isolate the terrorists from the rest of the Palestineans, and encourage peaceful relations between the two sides.

Incidentally, I am opposed to a Palestinean state, though. Both sides need to learn to live together. If Jews, Muslims and Christians can be neighbors and live in peace with each other in this country (and they do, in places like Bloomfield Hills, MI), they should be able to in the Holy Land.

megimoo
06-09-2009, 12:37 PM
I didn't say that the Palestineans had a better claim to the land than the Israelis, I was actually putting both of their claims on equal terms.

Is it the modern world's responsibility to right the wrongs committed by the Roman Empire almost 2000 years ago? I accept that Israel is an established nation, it's way too late for the west to go back on that one. I'm just saying that the Palestineans also have a claim in modern times. Our policies should be those that isolate the terrorists from the rest of the Palestineans, and encourage peaceful relations between the two sides.

Incidentally, I am opposed to a Palestinean state, though. Both sides need to learn to live together. If Jews, Muslims and Christians can be neighbors and live in peace with each other in this country (and they do, in places like Bloomfield Hills, MI), they should be able to in the Holy Land.
Have you been keeping up to date on the news from the middle east ?The Arab Muslims have been driving the Christians out of Lebanon and Bethlehem for years now.Bethlehem was full of Christian Israelis but no more.They have desecrated Christian churches all though Bethlehem and driven all of the Christians out .Islam is a religion of exclusion, if you refuse to join them they will either kill you or treat you as a slave.Islam will never tolerate Israel as an nation.They hate the Jews with a great passion and Their holy book demands that they kill the Jews.Their plan is the whole world under Islams rule and Sharia Law .How do you propose to live in harmony with a people like that ?
........................

megimoo
06-09-2009, 12:57 PM
I didn't say that the Palestineans had a better claim to the land than the Israelis, I was actually putting both of their claims on equal terms.

Is it the modern world's responsibility to right the wrongs committed by the Roman Empire almost 2000 years ago? I accept that Israel is an established nation, it's way too late for the west to go back on that one. I'm just saying that the Palestineans also have a claim in modern times. Our policies should be those that isolate the terrorists from the rest of the Palestineans, and encourage peaceful relations between the two sides.

Incidentally, I am opposed to a Palestinean state, though. Both sides need to learn to live together. If Jews, Muslims and Christians can be neighbors and live in peace with each other in this country (and they do, in places like Bloomfield Hills, MI), they should be able to in the Holy Land.


Christian Man Raped and Murdered for Refusing Islam

"Last time I looked The Christian churches haven't started raping or murdering athiests !"

WASHINGTON -- International Christian Concern (ICC) has learned that a young Christian man from Pakistan was caught in a compromising situation with the daughter of a radical Muslim family but refused to convert to Islam despite her insistence and the threats of her three brothers. On May 15, the young man's father found his dead body near a canal in a rural Punjab village, after he had been missing for three days


http://www.aina.org/news/20090608133722.htm

noonwitch
06-09-2009, 02:06 PM
Have you been keeping up to date on the news from the middle east ?The Arab Muslims have been driving the Christians out of Lebanon and Bethlehem for years now.Bethlehem was full of Christian Israelis but no more.They have desecrated Christian churches all though Bethlehem and driven all of the Christians out .Islam is a religion of exclusion, if you refuse to join them they will either kill you or treat you as a slave.Islam will never tolerate Israel as an nation.They hate the Jews with a great passion and Their holy book demands that they kill the Jews.Their plan is the whole world under Islams rule and Sharia Law .How do you propose to live in harmony with a people like that ?
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Not all muslims share those beliefs, because not all muslims are fundamentalists. The Hebrew Bible reports that God demanded that the Israelites slaughter whole villages of people who were not of their beliefs. The Christians of the crusade era felt similarly toward not just muslims in the middle east, but of the Cathars and any french people who tried to keep them from slaughtering the Cathars.



You do know where the saying "Kill them all, God will know his own" comes from, right? Hint: it's not The Simpsons.

gator
06-09-2009, 02:28 PM
Not all muslims share those beliefs, because not all muslims are fundamentalists. The Hebrew Bible reports that God demanded that the Israelites slaughter whole villages of people who were not of their beliefs. The Christians of the crusade era felt similarly toward not just muslims in the middle east, but of the Cathars and any french people who tried to keep them from slaughtering the Cathars.



You do know where the saying "Kill them all, God will know his own" comes from, right? Hint: it's not The Simpsons.

You raised an excellent point. I can take you to a place in the US where people were thrown off a cliff because they refused to convert to Christianity. Ask the Mormons about religious tolerance. They will laugh at you.

Now I am not against a good hate now and then. In fact I enjoy them. They make me feel good from time to time. At one time I hated “gooks”. Gooks murdered millions of people including killing 58,000 of my fellow veterans. Gooks tried to kill me several times. At one time I would have told you that I hated the Israelis because they murdered 34 of my fellow American veterans. I remember my father talking about hating the Krauts and Japs. He felt they were inherently evil. My Greatgrandfather(3) absolutely hated the Yankees and said so several times in his letters. He felt they were the Devil Incarnate and actually used that description once.

The problem with these hate rampages against the Muslims is that takes the focus off why America is at war with the sonofabitches. As long as we make it a religious discussion then we don’t have to deal with the fact they are pissed us because we took sides in a war that was none of our business.

The real issue in our conflict with the Mulsim is a reverse Monroe Doctrine. They are trying to kick us out of their sphere of influence. We got involved in a war that had nothing to do with our own security 40 years ago. We armed one side against the other. The arms were used to kill people. Lots of people. The attacks on America by the Muslims are the consequences. Getting involved in Middle East entanglements that have nothing to do with our own security is absolutely the most stupid and immoral foreign policy decision ever made by our country. George Washington would have turned over in his grave. There are consequences for being stupid. If we are so naÔve as to think we can piss a billion people off and then not have to deal with any consequences then we are dumber than is imaginable.

If we were smart we would finish the mission in Iraq, continue to hunt down Bin Laden in Afghanistan and then quietly get out of the business of caring what happens in the Middle East other than buying oil as needed. If anyone ever threatens our oil supply then we should kick their ass, just like we did in 1991.

Jfor
06-09-2009, 03:05 PM
Noonwitch and Gator... Big difference in your analogies and Megimoo's. What you are talking happened in the past. What Megimoo is talking about is happening now. When that abortion doctor was killed, the killer was not celebrated as a hero by the entire religion. When the planes hit the WTC, there was dancing in the streets by Muslims all over this country and this world. Muslims celebrate when one of them blows up a daycare full of kids or when Muslims blow up police stations, or kill Christians and Jews. They do not speak out against the homicide bombings. Christians do speak out against the senseless murder.

gator
06-09-2009, 07:19 PM
Noonwitch and Gator... Big difference in your analogies and Megimoo's. What you are talking happened in the past. What Megimoo is talking about is happening now. When that abortion doctor was killed, the killer was not celebrated as a hero by the entire religion. When the planes hit the WTC, there was dancing in the streets by Muslims all over this country and this world. Muslims celebrate when one of them blows up a daycare full of kids or when Muslims blow up police stations, or kill Christians and Jews. They do not speak out against the homicide bombings. Christians do speak out against the senseless murder.

You missed my point entirely. What difference does it make what the Muslims do on a daily basis?

I honestly think that we have enough problems in our country to worry about without concerning ourselves too much with the Muslims. You do know we have two trillion dollar debt this year, don't you?

It was not my concern to make sure that Saddam didnít have any weapons of mass destruction as long as it was not a threat to the US. It is not my concern that Iraq has the capability of building a low level nuclear bomb unless they threaten the US.

I sure as hell could care less if Iraqis walk around with blue fingers or not.

I really donít give a ratís ass if Israel is safe or not.

There are many things going on in the Middle East that I could care less about. In fact there is hardly anything that I think of that is really a direct threat to the US unless it would be the oil supply. Since we only get about 15% of our oil from the Middle East I am not so sure that is worth the lives of very many of our finest young men and women, do you?

At one time it was of the concern of the US to be involved in the Middle East. That was during the Cold War when we did not want the Soviets to get control of the oil supply. It was worth our time and trouble in 1991 to make sure that Saddam didnít control of all the oil from Kuwait and Saudi Arabia.

Our intervention in the Middle East over the years has caused us nothing but grief, money and the lives of our men and women. Our Founding Fathers warned us not to get involved in foreign entanglement but we have listened to the filthy pro Israel lobby instead of our Founding Fathers. We have really been stupid, havenít we?

War was actually brought to the shores of America due to our stupidity in being involved in a foreign entanglement. The goddamn Israelis have pulled us into their war and we have paid a heavy price for our stupidity. The politicians that make money from pro Israel lobby are fat and happy. The Israelis are fat and happy. The families of the men and women buried in Section 61 at Arlington are not so happy.

By the way the Israelis also celebrate whenever they kill the Palestinians. They are pleased as punch. They are happy when they destroy a Palestinian day care centers also. The new setters from Russia and other places are always glad that the IDF has kicked the Palestinians off the land.

Of course the Palestinians were glad when the WTC was bombed. The Christian Palestinians along with the Muslim Palestinians. After all the US had been supplying weapons to the Israelis and the Israelis were using the American made weapon to kill their children and take the land from them.

I also remember the Israelis being glad on 911. They were glad the US was going to be kicking some Arab butt and they were delirious with joy with the aspect of money flowing into their country. I will never forget the absolute drooling of the Israelis ambassador on 911. The boy had thought he had died and gone to heaven. The rest of the world was offering their condolences and the goddamn Israelis were drooling over the idea of American money flowing into their country. It was pathetic.

thinker
06-09-2009, 07:23 PM
I'm going to pull a meg here. All recent news stories of muslim leaders speaking out against violence:

http://www.hindu.com/2009/02/22/stories/2009022251670300.htm

http://www.expressindia.com/news/print.php?newsid=50788

http://www.juancole.com/2008/11/6000-muslim-clerics-endorse-fatwa.html

Rockntractor
06-09-2009, 07:30 PM
I'm going to pull a meg here. All recent news stories of muslim leaders speaking out against violence:

http://www.hindu.com/2009/02/22/stories/2009022251670300.htm

http://www.expressindia.com/news/print.php?newsid=50788

http://www.juancole.com/2008/11/6000-muslim-clerics-endorse-fatwa.html
Huh! I read the express India every morning while I'm Eating my captain crunch. I can't believe I missed that!

thinker
06-09-2009, 07:31 PM
The express india link is a link to a reuters story; reuters doesn't have it up anymore.

Beyond that, you're going to blame me for NOT linking an MSM article as opposed to an off the radar source? Are you serious?

Rockntractor
06-09-2009, 07:34 PM
The express india link is a link to a reuters story; reuters doesn't have it up anymore.

Beyond that, you're going to blame me for NOT linking an MSM article as opposed to an off the radar source? Are you serious?
Yeah! I'm known for being serious all the time. Thats me!

thinker
06-09-2009, 07:36 PM
=P. Sarcasm there, man.

Rockntractor
06-09-2009, 07:39 PM
=P. Sarcasm there, man.
In all seriousness I was actually impressed you found three recent articles from anywhere.

thinker
06-09-2009, 07:40 PM
Learn something new every day, right?

Rockntractor
06-09-2009, 07:47 PM
Learn something new every day, right?
I wish I new a lot less. Sometimes I seriously envy people like axle. He is completely unaware of the problems this planet faces.

WatersEdge
06-10-2009, 01:52 AM
That is a bunch of bullshit. If you want to send your money to a country because, in your opinion, ďit is a "center of Religious historical significance and the grandeur of its incredible beauty of both land, sea and people dominate the entire 'middle east'", then that is fine. I don't have the same opinion.
--Yes, our opinions differ.

We will always suport our friends in Israel; we need to support them and they support us internally here as well. Quid pro quo. Vice/Versa.

OK, so we disagree. We also disagree about the USS Liberty. (Obviously it was a horrid mistake).
I am glad we both agree on Hebrew National Hot Dogs. They are tasty, no doubt! (with swiss cheese) Hmm hmm.

gator
06-10-2009, 08:40 AM
--Yes, our opinions differ.

We will always suport our friends in Israel; we need to support them and they support us internally here as well. Quid pro quo. Vice/Versa.

OK, so we disagree. We also disagree about the USS Liberty. (Obviously it was a horrid mistake).
I am glad we both agree on Hebrew National Hot Dogs. They are tasty, no doubt! (with swiss cheese) Hmm hmm.

It is sad that so may people in this country feel like you and so few feel like me.

Your views on Israel are a guarantee that we will be involved in perpetual war in the Middle East for God know how long. Probably another 50 years. We will always have a significant threat of another 911, maybe the next time being worse. We will be getting poorer as we give our money to the Israelis, who will be getting richer. The saddest thing is that more and more of our finest young men and women will die over the years just to make sure that Israel lives well and that is not a good exchange in my opinion. Not by a long shot.

We will also have to deal with the immorality of backing a brutal apartheid government. The death of every Christian and Muslim Palestinian is also on the conscience of every American because we give the Israelis the weapons that they use to carry out the slaughter.

I don’t want to ever hear any complaints about the government spending money from an Israeli supporter. They justify giving billions of dollars to the Israelis at a time when we are running tremendous deficits and are having significant economic problems. Another blatant example of putting Israel’s interest above American interest.

We will never get justice for the crewmembers of the USS Liberty and that is a shame because as US military men they deserve the backing of the American people. At the very least every American should be supporting the crewmember’s call for a war crimes investigation against the Israelis. It is a shame that we sold them out just to give the goddamn Israelis a pass. I don’t even know how an American Israel supporter can face themselves in the mirror knowing they sold out the brave crewmembers in favor of the murders that attacked the Liberty. Maybe it is because they are more loyal to Israel than to America.

We have abandoned the advice of our Founding Fathers to not get involved in foreign entanglements in favor of the lies, misconceptions and money of the pro Israel lobby. We should be ashamed of ourselves.

WatersEdge
06-10-2009, 11:55 AM
It is sad that so may people in this country feel like you and so few feel like me.
--Actually, that only makes sense seeing that more people than not value the critical importance of our friendship with Israel.



Your views on Israel are a guarantee that we will be involved in perpetual war in the Middle East for God know how long. Probably another 50 years.
---Oh, much longer than that. Probably for all time or until the terrorist arabs become courageous enough to care about their own people instead of dismantling their culture and refusing to build rather than to destroy.



We will always have a significant threat of another 911, maybe the next time being worse.
--Not with the improved intel we have now; not with the consistent help of our allies in the region who provide us with insightful information on the movement and planning of our enemies.



We will be getting poorer as we give our money to the Israelis, who will be getting richer.
I really hope that you rethink such a negative and defeatist attitude.
Our friendship with Israel is critical. They have always been an ally and will always be. The money is circular; we provide assistance and they provide it back to us, in kind. In many different ways.

This is one of many positive links with a lot of information. I hope you take the time to read. (http://www.geocities.com/d_elazar/USA/IsraelAidUSA.htm)



The saddest thing is that more and more of our finest young men and women will die over the years just to make sure that Israel lives well and that is not a good exchange in my opinion. Not by a long shot.
--Both the U.S. and Israel are in the same fight; the fight against terrorists and terrorism. Yes, this is sad, but neigher Country brought this on by anything we have done historically or have stood for through the years. We both will battle our common enemies so that we can both provide good lives for ourselves and for our children, from here on out.



We will also have to deal with the immorality of backing a brutal apartheid government. The death of every Christian and Muslim Palestinian is also on the conscience of every American because we give the Israelis the weapons that they use to carry out the slaughter.
--Quite incorrect. If the terrorist arabs had any conscience it would be solely upon themselves.
There is no "apartheid" there in that region, whatsoever. Please read the difference between "apartheid" in S. Africa and what you purport Israel to be. Israel does not seek dominance of the palestinian workforce, they simply want to root-out the troublemakers, is all. Can you blame them? That is not apartheid; Israel does not seek dominance of the arabs. They simply have wanted to structure their state as one organized Country. (which includes a large arab workforce, btw). How'd you like it if rockets were lobbed over into your neighborhood from the cowards over the border, year-in and year-out? Bet you'd get a bit tired of that. Israel has EVERY right to defend itself against the terrorists; any terrorists. You know the ones that Carter goes around hugging.



We will never get justice for the crewmembers of the USS Liberty and that is a shame because as US military men they deserve the backing of the American people.
--Accidental tragedies don't seek or require justice. That situation was deeply apologized for and fully explained.



We have abandoned the advice of our Founding Fathers to not get involved in foreign entanglements in favor of the lies, misconceptions and money of the pro Israel lobby. We should be ashamed of ourselves.
--Our Founding Fathers would certainly favor our friendship with Israel as with the support of all U.S. Allies.
We are extremely fortunate to have such a strong ally in that region. Quite the opposite of anything to do with shame; quite synonymous with proud growth and prosperity that have made us the most powerful country in the world.

Now, if the dimwitted Dims had listened to the conservatives in this country and those in Israel who were not in favor of Obama, we'd surely be better off. But that's a whole other story for another time.

noonwitch
06-10-2009, 12:49 PM
Noonwitch and Gator... Big difference in your analogies and Megimoo's. What you are talking happened in the past. What Megimoo is talking about is happening now. When that abortion doctor was killed, the killer was not celebrated as a hero by the entire religion. When the planes hit the WTC, there was dancing in the streets by Muslims all over this country and this world. Muslims celebrate when one of them blows up a daycare full of kids or when Muslims blow up police stations, or kill Christians and Jews. They do not speak out against the homicide bombings. Christians do speak out against the senseless murder.



Have you been reading the Free Republic posts about the murder of Dr. Tiller?

Jfor
06-10-2009, 01:07 PM
Have you been reading the Free Republic posts about the murder of Dr. Tiller?

I don't go there. What I have heard and seen are people speaking out against the murder of tiller. Saying they understood the reason why he was murdered but not condoning it. The same cannot be said for muslims.

wiegenlied
06-11-2009, 02:14 AM
Carnegie once said : "It takes a Yankee to beat a Jew, and it takes a Scot to beat a Yankee," I may try to re-word it like "It takes a Scot to beat a Yankee, and it takes a Jew to beat a Scot," but it can not work because Carnegie has passed away. Yet all are the same, working hard to earn something from nothing so nothing there but the rain gentlemen. :cool::p