PDA

View Full Version : 1984 Discussion Thread.



Gingersnap
06-12-2009, 10:31 AM
The people have voted and our first book will be 1984.

Here's a link to the book that you can use to read online for free: George Orwell Org (http://www.george-orwell.org/1984/index.html).

I'll sticky this thread and leave it up to you guys to figure out how much time everybody needs and all that.

hazlnut
06-12-2009, 08:21 PM
Um, Wilbur... This is your party. What next?

GF Kennan
06-12-2009, 08:24 PM
Ok, I'll start. The first sentence of the novel...


It was a bright cold day in April, and the clocks were striking thirteen.

Orwell was a very meticulous writer. Any ideas on why he starts the novel referencing the month, and particularly the month of April?

Bubba Dawg
06-12-2009, 08:27 PM
Good choice.

I was in South Carolina at the beach this week and was at this place that is a Nature Trail and it said there was 'video surveillance.' Thing is, I couldn't see any cameras...and I looked.

Creeped me out. Reminded me of the TV watching you when you were watching the TV in 1984.

Gingersnap
06-12-2009, 08:51 PM
Ok, I'll start. The first sentence of the novel...



Orwell was a very meticulous writer. Any ideas on why he starts the novel referencing the month, and particularly the month of April?

April is the cruelest month. In the opening paragraph there are no references to the normal notes of spring. On the contrary, it's cold and cheerless. The only color in the streets comes from propaganda posters.

Bubba Dawg
06-12-2009, 09:15 PM
April is the cruelest month. In the opening paragraph there are no references to the normal notes of spring. On the contrary, it's cold and cheerless. The only color in the streets comes from propaganda posters.

True. Also, The State could declare it was April even if it were bleak midwinter. The State could say cold is warm, up is down, etc....and it would be accepted, however reluctantly, by members of The Party.

What the State says, in Oceania, is....

hazlnut
06-12-2009, 09:32 PM
Ok, I'll start. The first sentence of the novel...



Orwell was a very meticulous writer. Any ideas on why he starts the novel referencing the month, and particularly the month of April?

The first sentence brilliantly prepares the reader to enter a world different than the one we know.

Thirteen.

That one word tells us that everything is a little off--we understand it to be 1pm, but not really. Because when using military time, we'd say 1300 hrs. But to say the clock strikes 13...we know right away that something is wrong.

The months may be the same, the weather may be the same, but something is little bit off in this world of 1984.

PoliCon
06-12-2009, 11:26 PM
Ok, I'll start. The first sentence of the novel...



Orwell was a very meticulous writer. Any ideas on why he starts the novel referencing the month, and particularly the month of April?Orwell was not actually condemning communism - like many think - he was condemning totalitarianism. Specifically, it was a indictment of Joseph Stalin. Keep in mind that Stalin was the model for Big Brother - hell the whole book is modeled after Stalinist Russia.



In April 1922, Stalin became general secretary of the Central Committee of the Russian Communist Party (Bolsheviks), a post that he subsequently built up into the most powerful in the country. This position was an unwanted one within the party (Stalin was ...In April 1922, Stalin became general secretary of the Central Committee of the Russian Communist Party (Bolsheviks), a post that he subsequently built up into the most powerful in the country.

Gingersnap
06-12-2009, 11:48 PM
True. Also, The State could declare it was April even if it were bleak midwinter. The State could say cold is warm, up is down, etc....and it would be accepted, however reluctantly, by members of The Party.

What the State says, in Oceania, is....

Bingo.

hazlnut
06-12-2009, 11:58 PM
True. Also, The State could declare it was April even if it were bleak midwinter. The State could say cold is warm, up is down, etc....and it would be accepted, however reluctantly, by members of The Party.

What the State says, in Oceania, is....

Good point. But I'm reading Oceania as a dystopian UK--it could be bright and cold in April.

Are we thinking nothing is what it is? Then we need more clues to get a frame of reference. To really be clear of how Orwell means for us to see this world.

Should read the first chapter and reconvene. or wait for wilbur?

Bubba Dawg
06-13-2009, 11:11 AM
Good point. But I'm reading Oceania as a dystopian UK--it could be bright and cold in April.

Are we thinking nothing is what it is? Then we need more clues to get a frame of reference. To really be clear of how Orwell means for us to see this world.

Should read the first chapter and reconvene. or wait for wilbur?

Waiting for Wilbur.....

http://ufos.homestead.com/godot1.jpg

Sorry, couldn't resist. :o

wilbur
06-14-2009, 10:53 PM
I'm coming... just started reading today.... this is one I haven't read. So I'll join the discussion in a day or two... but feel free to get going without me (as some already have).

CorwinK
06-17-2009, 07:32 PM
Are we going to do discussion on each chapter? or are we going to break it down into multiple chapter sections?

Shannon
06-17-2009, 08:06 PM
Are we going to do discussion on each chapter? or are we going to break it down into multiple chapter sections?

I don't think anyone knows.

CorwinK
06-17-2009, 08:44 PM
well for the record I recommend we divide each part (3 parts there) in half and discuss at that marking point...side comments in between always welcome of course

Gingersnap
06-18-2009, 09:55 AM
well for the record I recommend we divide each part (3 parts there) in half and discuss at that marking point...side comments in between always welcome of course

wilbur is the de facto leader of this discussion and he's currently reading the book. I expect he'll be along with his discussion concept in a day or so.

NJCardFan
06-19-2009, 12:15 AM
I was reading this recently as well as I watched the movie a few weeks ago and if I recall, he wasn't sure what day it was as it appears as though their days are so mundane and repetitive that knowing the day of the week would be hard and by Winston mentioning April could very well be a guess. As for the time, I agree that this is an aspect of Newspeak.

Constitutionally Speaking
06-19-2009, 09:45 AM
But what was the purpose of newspeak?

By messing with the language you can control people. Words no longer have meaning or no longer have the ability to express the subtlety of thought needed to communicate things such as outrage or dissatisfaction.

It allows for great manipulation of the masses.

We see this now in how some organizations are destroying our language with the purpose of undermining our freedom. Freedom of religion, as it once was understood, has now been turned upside down to mean freedom FROM religion. It destroys the whole intent of the first amendment, and lays the groundwork to take all freedoms away.

Welfare becomes a tax cut - despite that you need to pay taxes in order to get a cut! It worked as a control measure and people actually believed Obama gave tax cuts to people who paid no taxes in the first place.

It is now humane to allow despots like Saddam Hussein to go on murdering innocents by the millions and it is a war crime to attempt to end it.

Torture has been defined downward to include placing a single caterpillar - confined to a box no less - in the same room as a terrorist.

Terrorists are called freedom fighters despite fighting FOR oppression.



Control of the language means control of the masses.



1984 was not just a critique of Stalin.



It was a warning.



We are not listening.

Gingersnap
06-23-2009, 10:57 PM
All excellent points here but we need a discussion leader. wilbutr isn't stepping up to the plate so volunteers?

PoliCon
06-23-2009, 11:28 PM
All excellent points here but we need a discussion leader. wilbutr isn't stepping up to the plate so volunteers?

yea . . . . YOU. :p

Gingersnap
06-24-2009, 09:27 AM
yea . . . . YOU. :p

I was not an English major. You want to talk about inorganic chemistry and I can yak with you all day long but the intricacies of cold war symbolism in Brit Lit are probably not my strong suit as a discussion leader. ;)

Molon Labe
06-24-2009, 10:02 AM
Remember the term TWO MINUTES HATE the next time you hear about the media release a "new message from Bin Laden". :rolleyes:

PoliCon
06-24-2009, 05:04 PM
Remember the term TWO MINUTES HATE the next time you hear about the media release a "new message from Bin Laden". :rolleyes:

forgive me if I'm wrong - but I though that two minutes hate was the chance to vent against the part . . . . it's been a while since I read the book so I could be mistaken. . . .

Gingersnap
06-24-2009, 09:11 PM
Crap.

Okay, let's get this show in the road. I am not a Lit major and don't play one on TV.

Let's go chunk by chunck (with generous dips into future chapters for discussion).

Early on we meet Winston's neighbor. Discuss his neighbor's family in terms of Nazism and in terms of both conservative and liberal lifestyle and mindset. How are they different or the same? Are there parraells between Winston's neighbor's family life and anything you see in our own society?

How does Winston's work life contrast with our own? Discuss employer key loggers and Internet usage tracking. Discuss workplace camera usage.

Anybody? Feel free to add or subtract this stuff. Lit isn't my field and I don't watch Oprah. :p

Constitutionally Speaking
06-24-2009, 09:15 PM
forgive me if I'm wrong - but I though that two minutes hate was the chance to vent against the part . . . . it's been a while since I read the book so I could be mistaken. . . .

You are mistaken.

Gingersnap
06-24-2009, 09:22 PM
You are mistaken.

You want to take over? Because I'd be relieved. Seriously. :D

Constitutionally Speaking
06-24-2009, 09:29 PM
You want to take over? Because I'd be relieved. Seriously. :D

I'm willing to try, but Literature is not my specialty either. I have NEVER led a book discussion.


So here is my first post in leading this discussion group.





Go read Gingers last post about Winston's neighbors - the Parsons - and comment. :D

PoliCon
06-24-2009, 09:30 PM
Crap.

Okay, let's get this show in the road. I am not a Lit major and don't play one on TV.

Let's go chunk by chunck (with generous dips into future chapters for discussion).

Early on we meet Winston's neighbor. Discuss his neighbor's family in terms of Nazism and in terms of both conservative and liberal lifestyle and mindset. How are they different or the same? Are there parraells between Winston's neighbor's family life and anything you see in our own society?

How does Winston's work life contrast with our own? Discuss employer key loggers and Internet usage tracking. Discuss workplace camera usage.

Anybody? Feel free to add or subtract this stuff. Lit isn't my field and I don't watch Oprah. :p

Winston's neighbors? Notice how the devotional bonds between parents and children are cut. The children are taught - and encouraged to turn on their parents. Sound familiar? Sound like cases of kids coming home and telling their parents that they are destroying the environment or killing polar bears?

Molon Labe
06-24-2009, 09:42 PM
Winston's neighbors? Notice how the devotional bonds between parents and children are cut. The children are taught - and encouraged to turn on their parents. Sound familiar? Sound like cases of kids coming home and telling their parents that they are destroying the environment or killing polar bears?

Or reporting parents to DSS or Child protective Services.



And....the answer to the question about two minutes hate:

two minutes hate was a way to work the sheepish masses to a hatred frenzy of the "enemy" Goldstein.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_C992KPzKs

Gingersnap
06-24-2009, 09:44 PM
The Parson's are also over-committed. The husband and the children are totally involved in political activities. This to the point that neither the husband nor the children have any time to devote to family concerns (Winston has to fix their sink).

This is not much different to the over-committed childhoods we see today. All in the service of better college prospects, or better athletic prospects, or better "volunteerism" bona fides for college. Many kids today have no real idea about dusting a house but they sure can recycle.

In terms of "spying" - what about D.A.R.E.? What about kids being asked about their parents' drinking/smoking/gun ownership habits in school?

Constitutionally Speaking
06-24-2009, 10:52 PM
As to the two minutes of hate, does anyone see a similarity between what the press has done in regards to corporations and their executives??

Or religious people,


Or Republicans in General?


I can take just about any movie made in the past 15 - 20 years and find example after example of anti-conservative propaganda being weaved in and out of the story - or strategically placed props that show a connection between the antagonist and conservatives.

It is all put there to create a general acceptance that conservatives are evil.

Whether it is the cad in Dirty Dancing (the one who knocked up Penny) giving Baby a copy of Ayn Rand's "The Fountainhead" and saying some people count and some don't. (ignoring the fact that the whole movie is an advertisement FOR legal abortion )

It may be news clips running on the TV or a photograph of the evil antagonist with President Reagan conspicuously placed in a scene.

These are examples of what the Party did in the book - brainwashing people to accept unconditionally whatever the party wanted.

In the book they were so effective at this that literally within a minute people were convinced that Oceania was always at war with Eastasia - despite spending the whole week preparing war posters for the ongoing war with EURASIA.

"Oceania is at war with Eastasia - it has always been at war with Eastasia" - yet one minute earlier the enemy was Eurasia.

A modern day example is the Global warming debate:

The earth is cooling - and that is the fault of the evil corporations who are polluting our atmosphere seamlessly becomes: The earth is warming and THAT is the fault of the evil corporations who are polluting our atmosphere.

They don't miss a beat and a whole lot of people don't notice the 100% about face and accept it as fact just as readily they accepted the global cooling panic a couple of years ago.

Gingersnap
06-25-2009, 09:29 AM
These are examples of what the Party did in the book - brainwashing people to accept unconditionally whatever the party wanted.

In the book they were so effective at this that literally within a minute people were convinced that Oceania was always at war with Eastasia - despite spending the whole week preparing war posters for the ongoing war with EURASIA.

"Oceania is at war with Eastasia - it has always been at war with Eastasia" - yet one minute earlier the enemy was Eurasia.

A modern day example is the Global warming debate:

The earth is cooling - and that is the fault of the evil corporations who are polluting our atmosphere seamlessly becomes: The earth is warming and THAT is the fault of the evil corporations who are polluting our atmosphere.

They don't miss a beat and a whole lot of people don't notice the 100% about face and accept it as fact just as readily they accepted the global cooling panic a couple of years ago.

This is certainly true in our own time. The political class and the media harp on GW endlessly. As a non-falsifiable hypothesis, anything proves anthropogenic climate change and any change is automatically pictured as disastrous.

Yet sea levels have risen over 10 inches in the last 100 years without a problem, the Greenlanders are ecstatic to see dirt, the polar bears are doing better than they have in the past 150 years, and there is less hunger in the world than ever. We never hear about this, though. It wouldn't be in the best interests of governments to let the panic die down.

hazlnut
06-25-2009, 10:01 AM
You want to take over? Because I'd be relieved. Seriously. :D

For the record, I'd pay good money to watch PoliCon lead this discussion. In fact, if we could rig up a webcam and all watch him read aloud to us... that would be priceless.:cool:

Molon Labe
06-26-2009, 11:23 AM
Let's talk abou the term NEWSPEAK.

I'm going to watch the film "Orwell Rolls in his Grave" this weekend. It's about how the media is dominated by special interests to the point of achieving what Orwell feared. I believe the media is only superficially has a political bias left or right. The real duplicity of the media is that it makes us believe that it's totally about left Vs Right (whether it's Fox or CNN) when in reality, it doesn't give a damn about Republican or Democrats. It cares about it's own status and the status of it's meal ticket.
Agree or disagree, it looks like a very interesting documentary on the subject.

I think it's also on You tube.

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=E4989F073E71D115&search_query=newspeak+1984


http://www.orwelltoday.com/newspeak.shtml

Constitutionally Speaking
06-26-2009, 09:37 PM
Let's talk abou the term NEWSPEAK.

I'm going to watch the film "Orwell Rolls in his Grave" this weekend. It's about how the media is dominated by special interests to the point of achieving what Orwell feared. I believe the media is only superficially has a political bias left or right. The real duplicity of the media is that it makes us believe that it's totally about left Vs Right (whether it's Fox or CNN) when in reality, it doesn't give a damn about Republican or Democrats. It cares about it's own status and the status of it's meal ticket.
Agree or disagree, it looks like a very interesting documentary on the subject.

I think it's also on You tube.

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=E4989F073E71D115&search_query=newspeak+1984


http://www.orwelltoday.com/newspeak.shtml


That movie is very biased against conservatives. I just watched it.

PoliCon
06-26-2009, 11:23 PM
For the record, I'd pay good money to watch PoliCon lead this discussion. In fact, if we could rig up a webcam and all watch him read aloud to us... that would be priceless.:cool:

Tim-tsots li et habeitsim ha-seyrot.

hazlnut
06-26-2009, 11:46 PM
That movie is very biased against conservatives. I just watched it.

Yeah, I know...I'm still trying to figure out why this board picked this book over Animal Farm.

I think you're all just a bunch of closet liberals.:p;)

Are we still doing this? What's the format? I did major in English Lit.

Molon Labe
06-29-2009, 08:14 AM
That movie is very biased against conservatives. I just watched it.

Yeah...I noticed that. It had some good info in it as to how it all works, but that was a let down on it's slant. It's a real shame when people who have a good concept can't see it as something more beyond partisan lines. Propaganda is designed to hurt all of us. Too bad they can't see this.

hazlnut
07-05-2009, 07:03 PM
Yeah...I noticed that. It had some good info in it as to how it all works, but that was a let down on it's slant. It's a real shame when people who have a good concept can't see it as something more beyond partisan lines. Propaganda is designed to hurt all of us. Too bad they can't see this.

Yeah, but the film was a very straightforward adaptation. So, don't you mean the book was slanted?

Maybe I need to watch film again (we're talking about the one with John Hurt that was actually released in 1984, right?) but I don't remember anything being overtly partisan. -- It was a british film released during Reagan's second term--what specifically are you seeing that relates to current or past U.S. partisanship?

Molon Labe
07-05-2009, 08:03 PM
Yeah, but the film was a very straightforward adaptation. So, don't you mean the book was slanted?

Maybe I need to watch film again (we're talking about the one with John Hurt that was actually released in 1984, right?) but I don't remember anything being overtly partisan. -- It was a british film released during Reagan's second term--what specifically are you seeing that relates to current or past U.S. partisanship?

Sorry...this thread got a bit off track. The movie that was referred to was "Orwell turns in his grave". It is a documentary I watched recently. It hits some really good points about media propaganda, but it's got a collectivists left leaning slant that really hurts it. I'm all for calling out the corporate media...but many references tend to relate only to right wing politicians. As if only they tend to propagandize for the status quo. That's a major flaw to me especially if you wish to convince right leaning people that the media is biased against ALL citizens.

The 1984 film adaption with Hurt was pretty good adaption of the book. I haven't seen it in many years, but I really should go back and revisit it. Nothing partisan about the film. One thing about Orwell is that, although he sympathized with socialism, his book was critique about collectivism. He understood that the Nazi's and Soviets were blood brothers in ideology. They just disagreed over the minor details. They certainly didn't disagree with planned economy or their hatred of individualism. I admire him for his ability to see this.

hazlnut
07-05-2009, 08:12 PM
Sorry...this thread got a bit off track. The movie that was referred to was "Orwell turns in his grave". It is a documentary I watched recently. It hits some really good points about media propaganda, but it's got a collectivists left leaning slant that really hurts it. I'm all for calling out the corporate media...but many references tend to relate only to right wing politicians. As if only they tend to propagandize for the status quo. That's a major flaw to me especially if you wish to convince right leaning people that the media is biased against ALL citizens.

The 1984 film adaption with Hurt was pretty good adaption of the book. I haven't seen it in many years, but I really should go back and revisit it. Nothing partisan about the film. One thing about Orwell is that, although he sympathized with socialism, his book was critique about collectivism. He understood that the Nazi's and Soviets were blood brothers in ideology. They just disagreed over the minor details. They certainly didn't disagree with planned economy or their hatred of individualism. I admire him for his ability to see this.

Sorry -- my bad.

The John Hurt film pops up on IFC a couple times a year. I think it is a well-made adaptation.

I have not seen the 1956 film.

http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMTkxNjExMjIwNF5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwNzM3NDYxMg@@._ V1._CR0,0,580,580_SS80_.jpg

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0048918/

PALEOCON
08-05-2009, 07:32 PM
War is Peace
Ignorance is Strength
Freedom is Slavery

The three governing slogans of INGSOC and if you stop to think about it the Unity Party USA

HowardRoark
08-05-2009, 08:00 PM
There's actually a really interesting cartoon that contrasts Aldous Huxley's "Brave New World" and "1984".

http://www.recombinantrecords.net/docs/2009-05-Amusing-Ourselves-to-Death.html (http://www.recombinantrecords.net/docs/2009-05-Amusing-Ourselves-to-Death.html)

Basically if you don't feel like reading the cartoon, it takes about how Orwell was worried that governments would become totalitarian through force, coersion, and controlling information while Huxley was worried government would become totalitarian because citizens would become too enamored with entertainment and would not even be concerned about their diminishing freedoms due to being distracted by "American's Next Top Model". Interesting since both seem to be partially right.

PoliCon
08-06-2009, 12:35 AM
There's actually a really interesting cartoon that contrasts Aldous Huxley's "Brave New World" and "1984".

http://www.recombinantrecords.net/docs/2009-05-Amusing-Ourselves-to-Death.html (http://www.recombinantrecords.net/docs/2009-05-Amusing-Ourselves-to-Death.html)

Basically if you don't feel like reading the cartoon, it takes about how Orwell was worried that governments would become totalitarian through force, coersion, and controlling information while Huxley was worried government would become totalitarian because citizens would become too enamored with entertainment and would not even be concerned about their diminishing freedoms due to being distracted by "American's Next Top Model". Interesting since both seem to be partially right.

yup yup yup.

Constitutionally Speaking
08-06-2009, 08:07 AM
War is Peace
Ignorance is Strength
Freedom is Slavery

The three governing slogans of INGSOC and if you stop to think about it the Unity Party USA

Straight from the Democrats of 2009 (and re-posted for our new member)


But what was the purpose of newspeak?

By messing with the language you can control people. Words no longer have meaning or no longer have the ability to express the subtlety of thought needed to communicate things such as outrage or dissatisfaction.

It allows for great manipulation of the masses.

We see this now in how some organizations are destroying our language with the purpose of undermining our freedom. Freedom of religion, as it once was understood, has now been turned upside down to mean freedom FROM religion. It destroys the whole intent of the first amendment, and lays the groundwork to take all freedoms away.

Welfare becomes a tax cut - despite that you need to pay taxes in order to get a cut! It worked as a control measure and people actually believed Obama gave tax cuts to people who paid no taxes in the first place.

It is now humane to allow despots like Saddam Hussein to go on murdering innocents by the millions and it is a war crime to attempt to end it.

Torture has been defined downward to include placing a single caterpillar - confined to a box no less - in the same room as a terrorist.

Terrorists are called freedom fighters despite fighting FOR oppression.



Control of the language means control of the masses.



1984 was not just a critique of Stalin.



It was a warning.



We are not listening.


Also, it is a bit unsettling that SINCE this thread has started, one of topics from one of Ginger's posts has ALSO seen light in in this administration.


Early on we meet Winston's neighbor. Discuss his neighbor's family in terms of Nazism and in terms of both conservative and liberal lifestyle and mindset. How are they different or the same? Are there parraells between Winston's neighbor's family life and anything you see in our own society?

The Parsons were the family who were devoted to "Big Brother" but one of the children turned in the father for a thought crime.

Sort of like what Obama has asked people do if they discuss anything contrary to the party line on health care.

Molon Labe
08-06-2009, 08:50 AM
There's actually a really interesting cartoon that contrasts Aldous Huxley's "Brave New World" and "1984".

http://www.recombinantrecords.net/docs/2009-05-Amusing-Ourselves-to-Death.html (http://www.recombinantrecords.net/docs/2009-05-Amusing-Ourselves-to-Death.html)

Basically if you don't feel like reading the cartoon, it takes about how Orwell was worried that governments would become totalitarian through force, coersion, and controlling information while Huxley was worried government would become totalitarian because citizens would become too enamored with entertainment and would not even be concerned about their diminishing freedoms due to being distracted by "American's Next Top Model". Interesting since both seem to be partially right.


Huxley was more right. The movie Idiocracy is another that comes to mind.

HowardRoark
08-07-2009, 11:00 PM
I've heard of Idiocracy but it's kind of hard to watch anything with Luke Wilson in it

Last Samurai
11-01-2009, 05:45 PM
1984. I read that book during my High School "formative" years. I considered it an effort at Science Fiction with a warning based on societal trends even back then observable to the astute political observer.

Since the advent of the ObamaNation, I read it again this past Spring. Mainly because there were a LOT of comparisons being made between the Obama agenda and the conditions outlined in the Orwell book, politically speaking.

While the coefficient of coincidence is not yet uniform, the trends DO seem, to me at any rate, to be merging. I find that worrying. Primarily because the Orwell society of Big Brother subverts the individual into a sheeplike mass of humanity, incapable of individual thought (and if you do, you are subversive), action other than that decided (and/or dictated) by the Government and completely robs one of self determination.

I once lived in a Country where all these "individualistic" things were guaranteed by the Law of the Land. I still live in that Country, but I am constantly reminded that certain "Orwellian" aspects to our society are slowly creeping it's way into our lives. It's not just Obama (although I DO accuse him of "picking up the pace" a bit), it's been going on for nearly two generations now.

As for "NewSpeak", it is nothing more than a means by which to "condition" the language away from subtle nuances thereof, giving life to more "black and white" observances rather than examination of the "grey areas". For the subdued (read: dummied down) mind the "either/or" selection is easier to make than a myriad of "what ifs" or contingencies. To get the "choice" of two you want to evoke, one merely has to "demonize" the "other side". I suggest that this is MOST prevalent in today's Policical scene. ("You're either for us or against us!" No thought, no analysis, no compromise...... no prisoners.)

Anyway, you get my drift.

LS