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megimoo
05-31-2008, 10:05 PM
Near freeway, giant Confederate flag?

TAMPA — Next year, a giant Confederate flag may tower above the tree line near the junction of Interstate 75 and Interstate 4. The Sons of Confederate Veterans wants drivers in the Tampa area to see the massive flag — 30 feet high and 50 feet long — atop a 139-foot pole, the highest the Federal Aviation Authority would allow. It would be lit at night.

With the pole already in the ground and building permits in hand, the group is on its way to having what it calls the "world's largest" Confederate flag in place by mid 2009. The group just needs about $30,000 more, said Douglas Dawson, Florida division commander. Several nearby business owners don't mind. It's history, they say, and it's on private property. Tampa resident Marion Lambert owns the small triangular plot just west of Interstate 75 along U.S. 92 E.

But when Hillsborough County NAACP president Curtis Stokes heard about the plans to have the flag flying next year, he was shocked. "I'm surprised that they would allow something like this to go on in Hillsborough County," he said.
The county has wrestled with sensitive Confederate issues in the past. In 1994, the Confederate flag was removed from the county seal. Last year, county commissioners recognized Confederate commander Robert E. Lee on the same day they honored a black civic leader. Commissioners later apologized and haven't since recognized Lee.

It's the commissioners' responsibility to make sure plans don't move forward, Stokes said. The flag would send the wrong message about the county and it would be embarrassing because many visitors use the roads, he said. Code enforcement officers won't be able to stop the project because flags were removed from county sign regulations in 2004. County Commissioner Kevin White, whose district includes the flagpole site, could not be reached for comment Friday. ...snip

http://www.tampabay.com/news/humaninterest/article551722.ece?75


Who is the Sons of Confederate Veterans?
The Sons of Confederate Veterans is a national organization founded in 1896 that bills itself as a "historical, patriotic and nonpolitical organization dedicated to ensuring that a true history of the 1861 to 1865 period is preserved." It's open to male descendants of Confederate veterans.

The Florida division of the group has more than 1,500 members, according to its Web site. The group supported the proposed Confederate Heritage license plate, which did not pass this legislative session.

LogansPapa
06-01-2008, 12:16 AM
I think it's great that they identify themselves with the side that lost and have no shame. Yee-Haw!

Shannon
06-01-2008, 12:18 AM
Where's Gator when you really want him?:rolleyes:

megimoo
06-01-2008, 12:28 AM
I think it's great that they identify themselves with the side that lost and have no shame. Yee-Haw!Sonnabend was right about you,You have no soul !!

LogansPapa
06-01-2008, 12:41 AM
Sonnabend was right about you,You have no soul !!

:eek: Not nice! I'm sorry - did I miss the fact they actually won the Civil War?

megimoo
06-01-2008, 12:47 AM
:eek: Not nice! I'm sorry - did I miss the fact they actually won the Civil War?I guess I'll leave you for the Gator.He hasn't been fed a smart assed yankee in quite a while !

gator
06-01-2008, 07:43 AM
Where's Gator when you really want him?:rolleyes:

I am right here.

I live in Hillbororugh County and only a few miles from where the flag will be erected.

The intersection of I-4 and I-75 is on the outskirts of Tampa and is a good welcoming gate for all the shitass yankees that come to the area. Also, all the stupid yankess that drive south on I-75 to Ft Myers, Naples and Sarasota will go by the flag. I like it. I will see it every time I drive into Tampa. Sweeeet!

They have a Confederate cemetery in Brandon where I live. Several Confederate veterans and their families are buried there. The Confederate flag flies at the cemetery. It is right on hwy 60 in a very busy part of Brandon. I salute the brave veterans that died defending the Constitution every time I go by the cemetery.

RV Fan
06-01-2008, 08:46 AM
The Civil War was about more than slavery. The Confederate flag means more than that. But even if it didn't, they're putting it on private property.

Bubba Dawg
06-01-2008, 12:57 PM
I am right here.

I live in Hillbororugh County and only a few miles from where the flag will be erected.

The intersection of I-4 and I-75 is on the outskirts of Tampa and is a good welcoming gate for all the shitass yankees that come to the area. Also, all the stupid yankess that drive south on I-75 to Ft Myers, Naples and Sarasota will go by the flag. I like it. I will see it every time I drive into Tampa. Sweeeet!

They have a Confederate cemetery in Brandon where I live. Several Confederate veterans and their families are buried there. The Confederate flag flies at the cemetery. It is right on hwy 60 in a very busy part of Brandon. I salute the brave veterans that died defending the Constitution every time I go by the cemetery.

http://www.findagrave.com/photos/2003/324/7700221_1069412442.jpg

Gator, this is Andersonville National Cemetery in Andersonville (Sumter County) Georgia.

What catches you eye here, compatriot?

gator
06-01-2008, 01:57 PM
http://www.findagrave.com/photos/2003/324/7700221_1069412442.jpg

Gator, this is Andersonville National Cemetery in Andersonville (Sumter County) Georgia.

What catches you eye here, compatriot?


You do know that more Confederate POWs were killed by the North than Union POWs were killed by Confederates don't you?

There were also more Union POWs than Confederate POWs so that made your chances of surviving Andersonville as an Union soldier better than a Confederate had of surviving a Union POW camp.

Another point of moral clarity. The Union troops were taken captive as they were trying to kill Americans and destroy American cities. The Confederates were Americans protecting their homeland from an invasion of murders.

Bubba Dawg
06-01-2008, 02:01 PM
You do know that more Confederate POWs were killed by the North than Union POWs were killed by Confederates don't you?

There were also more Union POWs than Confederate POWs so that made your chances of surviving Andersonville as an Union soldier better than a Confederate had of surviving a Union POW camp.

Another point of moral clarity. The Union troops were taken captive as they were trying to kill Americans and destroy American cities. The Confederates were Americans protecting their homeland from an invasion of murders.


I agree, but there is a point to what I am saying. That is a confederate grave, the only confederate grave remaining, at the Andersonville National Cemetary. His name is Sampson B (Boze or I have see it as Boaz) Kitchens. He is my ggg-uncle on my mother's side. He was in the 10th Georgia Regiment and was present at Appomattox. To me, that lone confederate marker in a sea of union ones is a monument and I am proud of my association with him.

I am proud of my confederate ancestors.

gator
06-01-2008, 02:13 PM
I agree, but there is a point to what I am saying. That is a confederate grave, the only confederate grave remaining, at the Andersonville National Cemetary. His name is Sampson B (Boze or I have see it as Boaz) Kitchens. He is my ggg-uncle on my mother's side. He was in the 10th Georgia Regiment and was present at Appomattox. To me, that lone confederate marker in a sea of union ones is a monument and I am proud of my association with him.

I am proud of my confederate ancestors.

Do you know that when I visit DC I won't even go to Arlington? There are many brave American heroes buried in Arlington and I have tremendous respect and admiration for them. However, Arlington was established as a Union Army cemetery. It was even put at Arlington as a slap in the face of Robert E. Lee.

As long as the purpose of the cemetery is to “honor” those that invaded America and killed Americans I will pass on visiting it.

God bless you for visiting your relative at Andersonville.

Bubba Dawg
06-01-2008, 02:36 PM
Do you know that when I visit DC I won't even go to Arlington? There are many brave American heroes buried in Arlington and I have tremendous respect and admiration for them. However, Arlington was established as a Union Army cemetery. It was even put at Arlington as a slap in the face of Robert E. Lee.

As long as the purpose of the cemetery is to “honor” those that invaded America and killed Americans I will pass on visiting it.

God bless you for visiting your relative at Andersonville.

I found out about where he was buried by accident. I was visiting a small church cemetery in Macon county Georgia and a couple of older men were cleaning up the grounds and we got to talking.

One of them told me a joke:


You know there's one confederate gravemarker at Andersonville National Cemetery, and it is pointed on top where all the union grave markers are rounded on top.

Do you know why that is?

It's so that when all the yankee families come down to visit the graves of their relatives, they won't sit on that lone confederate soldier's tombstone.

This joke of course refers to the convention of the styles of grave markers eventually adoped for confederate and union graves. Union grave markers are generally rounded on the top. Confederate grave markers are slightly pointed on top.

I laughed when they told me the joke, and then they told me the name of the veteran and I went 'Wow! That's my ggg-uncle."

It was something the way that came about.

noonwitch
06-02-2008, 01:08 PM
The Civil War was about more than slavery. The Confederate flag means more than that. But even if it didn't, they're putting it on private property.

I'm not a fan of the confederate flag and all it stands for, but private property is private property.

linda22003
06-02-2008, 01:10 PM
"The group just needs about $30,000 more, said Douglas Dawson, Florida division commander."

So, basically, no need to get excited. This could still take decades. :p

Rebel Yell
06-02-2008, 01:55 PM
I live about 20 miles from Irwinville, the site where President Davis was captured. There is a small museum and markers showing the exact site of capture. There is no Confederate flag flying on the grounds at all because it is property of the state. Jesse Jackson and the rest of Logan's Papa's friends came in and made sure of that. There is a flag flying across the road from the museum though. The owner of that property said if the state was too chickenshit to fly it over there, he'd have to do it for them.

Rebel Yell
06-02-2008, 01:58 PM
I'm not a fan of the confederate flag and all it stands for, but private property is private property.

Then apparently, you don't know what it stands for.

LogansPapa
06-02-2008, 02:18 PM
Jesse Jackson and the rest of Logan's Papa's friends came in and made sure of that.

I have no problem with folks glorifying their loser status.:p

Rebel Yell
06-02-2008, 03:24 PM
I have no problem with folks glorifying their loser status.:p

That's why you are allowed here in the first place.

LogansPapa
06-02-2008, 03:30 PM
That's why you are allowed here in the first place.

Wow. Touché. :cool:

lacarnut
06-02-2008, 03:48 PM
"The group just needs about $30,000 more, said Douglas Dawson, Florida division commander."

So, basically, no need to get excited. This could still take decades. :p

According to your dumb ass. Like Gator says, the flag will greet those Yankees, and from Gator's perspective, Florida has enough of those suckers.

Rebel Yell
06-02-2008, 04:06 PM
According to your dumb ass. Like Gator says, the flag will greet those Yankees, and from Gator's perspective, Florida has enough of those suckers.

These Yankees would be surprised to see how fast a project like this can raise $30,000.

This reminds me of a short conversation I had in the local grocery store the other day. I'm picking up some charcoal and I'm wearing my Dixie Outfitter's T shirt. I hear this voice behind me, with an obvious Yankee accent, "The South will rise again, huh?" I told him, "Yeah, and the first thing we're gonna do is round up all these transplanted Yankees." We had a good laugh and he walked away.

Before the smartasses start piling on, no one jumped out of the bushes and no one was converted to my beliefs. Just a funny little one liner, IMO.

gator
06-02-2008, 04:13 PM
These Yankees would be surprised to see how fast a project like this can raise $30,000.



That group meets at Buddy Freddies Restaurant in Brandon on the first Thursday of each month. I have seen them a couple of times over the last few years.

Maybe this next Thursday I will drop by and give them a little cash donation.

Anything to piss off the Yankees and honor our brave Confederate veterans is a good thing.

Phillygirl
06-02-2008, 04:14 PM
That group meets at Buddy Freddies Restaurant in Brandon on the first Thursday of each month. I have seen them a couple of times over the last few years.

Maybe this next Thursday I will drop by and give them a little cash donation.

Anything to piss off the Yankees and honor our brave Confederate veterans is a good thing.

It doesn't piss us off...it makes us giggle.

gator
06-02-2008, 04:19 PM
It doesn't piss us off...it makes us giggle.

You silly little yankee girls will giggle at anything.

lacarnut
06-02-2008, 04:31 PM
It doesn't piss us off...it makes us giggle.

That flag pisses off a lot of Yankees. Let's be honest about it.

Rebel Yell
06-02-2008, 04:32 PM
That flag pisses off a lot of Yankees. Let's be honest about it.

Trivia question.

How many slave ships did that flag fly over?

LogansPapa
06-02-2008, 04:35 PM
How many USN vessels does the other fly over today?

Odysseus
06-02-2008, 04:38 PM
Then apparently, you don't know what it stands for.

Unfortunately, a lot of bad actors have co-opted the Stars and Bars in order to perpetuate their agendas. When then-governor Ernest (Fritz) Hollings raised the Confederate battle flag over the South Carolina statehouse, he meant it as a gesture of defiance against federally enforced integration. It's also prominent at KKK websites and among those of other suprecist groups. Liberals exploit this, since it dovetails nicely with their narrative of a racist nation, using it as a shorthand for perceived southern racism. Like the swastika, which started out as a Hindu holy symbol, and became the graphic representation of the Nazi Party, the Confederate battle flag has been abused by Dixiecratic segregationists and liberals, and its original meaning has been lost in the fog of PC identity politics.

Phillygirl
06-02-2008, 04:40 PM
You silly little yankee girls will giggle at anything.

Luckily the southern boys give us a lot to giggle about...even when they don't mean to. ;)

Phillygirl
06-02-2008, 04:41 PM
That flag pisses off a lot of Yankees. Let's be honest about it.

It pisses off a lot of liberals...some of whom happen to be yankees. Conservative yankees don't really care.

Shannon
06-02-2008, 04:42 PM
It doesn't piss us off...it makes us giggle.

*puts Philly back on The List*

lacarnut
06-02-2008, 04:43 PM
Trivia question.

How many slave ships did that flag fly over?

None

The Civil War was NOT FOUGHT OVER SLAVERY like liberals/ yankees would have you believe.

Rebel Yell
06-02-2008, 04:45 PM
None

The Civil War was NOT FOUGHT OVER SLAVERY like liberals/ yankees would have you believe.

It was fought over the very same thing eople get on here and bitch about. Big Government.

Phillygirl
06-02-2008, 04:46 PM
None

The Civil War was NOT FOUGHT OVER SLAVERY like liberals/ yankees would have you believe.

Uh huh. Smiles and nods. Smiles and nods.

Phillygirl
06-02-2008, 04:47 PM
*puts Philly back on The List*

I never know if that's a good list or a bad list.

lacarnut
06-02-2008, 04:47 PM
It pisses off a lot of liberals...some of whom happen to be yankees. Conservative yankees don't really care.

Most yankees are liberals.:)

Phillygirl
06-02-2008, 04:49 PM
Most yankees are liberals.:)

Oh...yeah...you're kind of right there.

lacarnut
06-02-2008, 04:50 PM
Uh huh. Smiles and nods. Smiles and nods.

Glad to educate you. :):):)

Nubs
06-02-2008, 05:27 PM
Where can a yankee send his contribution??

Bubba Dawg
06-02-2008, 06:27 PM
I never know if that's a good list or a bad list.

You think she actually has a good list? :D

Phillygirl
06-02-2008, 06:31 PM
You think she actually has a good list? :D

Point taken.

Odysseus
06-02-2008, 06:37 PM
Most yankees are liberals.:)

Hey! Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig and Joe DiMaggio were all Republicans!
It's the Mets who are liberals.

lacarnut
06-02-2008, 06:56 PM
Hey! Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig and Joe DiMaggio were all Republicans!
It's the Mets who are liberals.

I always pulled for the Yanks over the Dodgers when both teams were in NY. With all the yankee prima- donna players and an asshole owner, I pull for them to lose every game.

Bubba Dawg
06-02-2008, 07:29 PM
Hey man, the Yankees are all..manly men.


http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x116/yankeehater9857/A_Rod_purse.jpg

wilbur
06-02-2008, 09:03 PM
You do know that more Confederate POWs were killed by the North than Union POWs were killed by Confederates don't you?

There were also more Union POWs than Confederate POWs so that made your chances of surviving Andersonville as an Union soldier better than a Confederate had of surviving a Union POW camp.

Another point of moral clarity. The Union troops were taken captive as they were trying to kill Americans and destroy American cities. The Confederates were Americans protecting their homeland from an invasion of murders.

You mean confederate slave owning murderers were protecting their ill gotten livelihood from an invasion of murderers.

Shannon
06-02-2008, 09:07 PM
You mean confederate slave owning murderers were protecting their ill gotten livelihood from an invasion of murderers.


I'm glad you fixed that.:rolleyes:

linda22003
06-03-2008, 08:13 AM
According to your dumb ass. Like Gator says, the flag will greet those Yankees, and from Gator's perspective, Florida has enough of those suckers.

We'll see how long it takes them to raise $30,000. :p That takes longer in some parts of the country than others.

Rebel Yell
06-03-2008, 09:28 AM
You mean confederate slave owning murderers were protecting their ill gotten livelihood from an invasion of murderers.

How did blacks fair in the north during that time? New York riots ring any bells? Why were there no slave uprisings during the War of Northern Agression? Nearly all the men were off fighting the Yankees. All it would have taken was for the men on the battlefields to hear that the slaves were rising up, and the war would have been over. Was it that they knew the plans the Yankees had for them was no better, and they at least knew they had a roof over their heads?

gator
06-03-2008, 09:39 AM
You mean confederate slave owning murderers were protecting their ill gotten livelihood from an invasion of murderers.

You do know there were slave owners in the North, don't you?

biccat
06-03-2008, 12:57 PM
Then apparently, you don't know what it stands for.
Unfortunately it stands for a lot. While I agree with a lot of the points made, the flag stands for both individuality and insurrection.

The Confederates struck first against their sovereign government. I believe that political fights should be fought within the structures of government, not with guns and death. Insurrection is not a valid form of protest.

Of course, I've got nothing against flying the Confederate flag, or people supporting the ideals of the Confederacy. But there's a very bright line of insurrection that the Confederates crossed, wrongly in my opinion.

Rebel Yell
06-03-2008, 01:03 PM
Unfortunately it stands for a lot. While I agree with a lot of the points made, the flag stands for both individuality and insurrection.

The Confederates struck first against their sovereign government. I believe that political fights should be fought within the structures of government, not with guns and death. Insurrection is not a valid form of protest.

Of course, I've got nothing against flying the Confederate flag, or people supporting the ideals of the Confederacy. But there's a very bright line of insurrection that the Confederates crossed, wrongly in my opinion.

Technically, couldn't the same be said of the founding fathers' revolution against the crown.

biccat
06-03-2008, 01:07 PM
Technically, couldn't the same be said of the founding fathers' revolution against the crown.
Technically, yes. Except Britain was a monarchy where the States had no ability to engage the political process and enact change.

Although that is an interesting challenge to distinguish the two.

Odysseus
06-03-2008, 01:08 PM
You do know there were slave owners in the North, don't you?

It was a lot rarer in the north, especially after the Missouri Compromise. Besides, the industrialization of the north required massive urban populations that could work in factories, and slavery was not conducive to skilled labor. This was satisfied by voluntary immigration from Europe, especially Ireland. This is one of the major reasons that there was a Civil War, although it's not covered very extensively at the undergraduate level, much less K-12.

In a nutshell, the northern economy was heavily industrialized and depended on raw materials from domestic sources to feed the mills. These came from the south. Britain, which was also heavily industrialized, had a head start and had more capital to spend, so they were able to outbid the north for southern crops, specifically cotton. Since the northern industrial base attracted more immigration, this led to a population increase that meant more representation in the House of Representatives, where northern interests were more heavily weighted. That's why the Senate was where all of the compromises happened. If you look back on the history of tariffs and other trade restrictions, you see the legislation that came out of the house was almost always hostile to southern interests, while the senate always mitigated the damage. This was the underlying economic schism between the north and south. The underlying social schism was the urban culture of the north, which saw southerners as illiterate yokels or elitist plantation barons, vs. the agrarian culture of the south, which saw northerners as crude, corrupt city dwellers who were constantly cheating southerners of their rightful due. Throw in the emotional arguments regarding slavery and you have a vicious divide over issues which could no longer be settled amicably. The election of Lincoln in a fourway race guaranteed that his administration would be seen as both illegitimate and radical by his opponents.

Now, want to see something really scary? Compare the social split between north and south with the social split between liberals and conservatives. Abortion is the emotional argument that divides the two camps (as are gay marriage, gun control and immigration), while entitlement policy (welfare, social security, health care, trade protectionism) is the economic schism.

See you in the trenches...

biccat
06-03-2008, 01:54 PM
Now, want to see something really scary? Compare the social split between north and south with the social split between liberals and conservatives. Abortion is the emotional argument that divides the two camps (as are gay marriage, gun control and immigration), while entitlement policy (welfare, social security, health care, trade protectionism) is the economic schism.

See you in the trenches...
I don't think that's a problem. 90% of liberals would wet themselves if they were handed a firearm. The rest would try to have sex with it.

gator
06-03-2008, 03:18 PM
The election of Lincoln in a fourway race guaranteed that his administration would be seen as both illegitimate and radical by his opponents.



No shit!

The sonofabitch was elected by only 39% of the people (mostly liberal Northeasterners) and he used that as a mandate to kill over a million Americans.

megimoo
06-03-2008, 03:35 PM
It was a lot rarer in the north, especially after the Missouri Compromise. Besides, the industrialization of the north required massive urban populations that could work in factories, and slavery was not conducive to skilled labor. This was satisfied by voluntary immigration from Europe, especially Ireland. This is one of the major reasons that there was a Civil War, although it's not covered very extensively at the undergraduate level, much less K-12.

In a nutshell, the northern economy was heavily industrialized and depended on raw materials from domestic sources to feed the mills. These came from the south. Britain, which was also heavily industrialized, had a head start and had more capital to spend, so they were able to outbid the north for southern crops, specifically cotton. Since the northern industrial base attracted more immigration, this led to a population increase that meant more representation in the House of Representatives, where northern interests were more heavily weighted. That's why the Senate was where all of the compromises happened. If you look back on the history of tariffs and other trade restrictions, you see the legislation that came out of the house was almost always hostile to southern interests, while the senate always mitigated the damage. This was the underlying economic schism between the north and south. The underlying social schism was the urban culture of the north, which saw southerners as illiterate yokels or elitist plantation barons, vs. the agrarian culture of the south, which saw northerners as crude, corrupt city dwellers who were constantly cheating southerners of their rightful due. Throw in the emotional arguments regarding slavery and you have a vicious divide over issues which could no longer be settled amicably. The election of Lincoln in a fourway race guaranteed that his administration would be seen as both illegitimate and radical by his opponents.

Now, want to see something really scary? Compare the social split between north and south with the social split between liberals and conservatives. Abortion is the emotional argument that divides the two camps (as are gay marriage, gun control and immigration), while entitlement policy (welfare, social security, health care, trade protectionism) is the economic schism. See you in the trenches...

Crispus ATTUCKS,, a mulatto slave , or half-breed Indian, killed 5 March, 1770, in what is known as the Boston Massacre.

JB
06-03-2008, 03:45 PM
In a nutshell, the northern economy was heavily industrialized and depended on raw materials from domestic sources to feed the mills. These came from the south. Britain, which was also heavily industrialized, had a head start and had more capital to spend, so they were able to outbid the north for southern crops, specifically cotton.Somewhat.

Egyptian cotton was beginning to flood the States and the North began to depend on southern cotton less. At the same time the South was still heavily dependent on Northern/Mid-western corn.

Rebel Yell
06-03-2008, 03:56 PM
Somewhat.

Egyptian cotton was beginning to flood the States and the North began to depend on southern cotton less. At the same time the South was still heavily dependent on Northern/Mid-western corn.

Close. Let me elaborate.


the South paid an undue proportion of federal revenues derived from tariffs, and these were expended by the federal government more in the North than the South: in 1840, the South paid 84% of the tariffs, rising to 87% in 1860. They paid 83% of the $13 million federal fishing bounties paid to New England fishermen, and also paid $35 million to Northern shipping interests which had a monopoly on shipping from Southern ports. The South, in effect, was paying tribute to the North. The address of Texas Congressman Reagan on 15 January 1861 summarizes this discontent: "You are not content with the vast millions of tribute we pay you annually under the operation of our revenue law, our navigation laws, your fishing bounties, and by making your people our manufacturers, our merchants, our shippers. You are not satisfied with the vast tribute we pay you to build up your great cities, your railroads, your canals. You are not satisfied with the millions of tribute we have been paying you on account of the balance of exchange which you hold against us. You are not satisfied that we of the South are almost reduced to the condition of overseers of northern capitalists. You are not satisfied with all this; but you must wage a relentless crusade against our rights and institutions." As the London Times of 7 Nov 1861 stated: "The contest is really for empire on the side of the North and for independence on that of the South....".
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/pearlston1.html