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patriot45
06-16-2009, 09:49 PM
All you yahoos who like to dis on Gator need to eat crow. He has been right all along and this controversy is not ready to go away! I have read all accounts of the Liberty before this new book came out and I have agreed with his assessment. This might open some of them closed eyes. Try being an American.

Cover up (http://www.shreveporttimes.com/article/20090607/NEWS01/906070330/New+book+examines+Israeli+attack)



A new book that takes a long, hard look at an Israeli attack on the U.S. spy ship USS Liberty in June 1967 draws in part on reporting and commentary that linked the international tensions and the Shreveport-Bossier City area.


The book published Tuesday is "Attack on the Liberty," penned by investigative reporter James Scott, whose father, ship damage control engineer Ensign John Scott, survived the brutal assault that killed 34 sailors and wounded more than 170 others.
The June 8, 1967 attack took place in international waters in the Mediterranean Sea just off Sinai coast. The Liberty, which was clearly marked as a U.S. Navy vessel and also had an oversized flag displayed, was observed for several hours by Israeli jets, then strafed and finally attacked by torpedo boats.
One of the dead sailors was James Lupton, 25, from a large Keithville family with members in the military and local police. He died when a torpedo slammed into the secret compartment he and other communications technicians shared.
His father, Clyde Lupton, suffered a heart attack when he heard his son had been killed, and was dead within three years.
Among the wounded was Gary Wayne Brummett, of Kickapoo, who bears the mental and physical scars to this day and remains mistrustful of Israel and its forces.
A quote from Brummett opens the book:
"I know what a slaughterhouse looks like," said Brummett, a 3rd Class petty officer at the time of the attack. "That's what this was."
Brummett was "was incredibly helpful to me on the research end," says Scott, a former investigative reporter for The Post and Courier in Charleston, S.C., a recipient of the McClatchy Co. President's Award and the South Carolina Press Association's 2003 Journalist of the Year. "Gary was instrumental in helping me understand how the engine room worked and what it was like there during the attack. I interviewed him a number of times."
The tally of killed and wounded comprised 70 percent of the crew, a proportion of casualties rarely reached unless a vessel is sunk. And only heroic efforts by the officers and crew saved the ship from sinking, Scott asserts in the book, which relates how the incident impacted the lives of the crew members and their families.

He also delves into the inner workings of politicians and military leaders in Washington and Tel Aviv, and shares new research in which reveals that at least one key Israeli pilot knew the ship was American. He also looks into how the mindset of Washington gelled once it became apparent that initial outrage over the attack paled in comparison to the daily body count rising in the Vietnam War, and that many Americans, including but not limited to the Jewish community, was proud of how Israel had trounced national enemies in the brief but strategic war.


Those who know of the attack on the Liberty today tend to fall into two camps, with no real middle ground. There are those who condemn Israel for an attack on an ally, and those who swear it must have been an accident and the Israelis were not sure who they were attacking.
Few today remember though, that in 1967 the Israelis could not be sure that the United States was, or would remain, a steadfast ally. The last major military-political action in which the two nations had been involved, the Suez Crisis of 1956, witnessed the United States forcing Israel, France and the United Kingdom to abandon efforts to wrest the Suez Canal from Egyptian control. With that as a last memory, the impartial observer might infer that Israel would view a U.S. spy ship as much a threat as an asset while it attacked Egyptian forces in a new conflict.
The USS Liberty became the most decorated ship and crew in Navy history. Its skipper, Cmdr. William McGonagle, received the Medal of Honor even though his lengthy citation describes his heroism and wounding without once mentioning that the attack was by Israelis.
The ship and its crew also received the Presidential Unit Citation. Sailors received two Navy Crosses, 11 Silver Stars, numerous lesser awards for valor and 204 Purple Hearts, for a total of 840 medals. The casualty rate was 70 percent.
The official U.S. Navy report on the attack largely relieved Israel of responsibility. A Navy attorney who was part of the investigation later publicly charged that it had been purposefully misdirected.


Though Israel apologized within hours of the attack, its claim that its forces had mistaken the Liberty for a much smaller Egyptian horse and troop transport that was hundreds of miles way drew derision from the U.S. media at the time.


The Times' editorial on the attack, quoted in the book, noted that "almost as shocking as the attack itself has been the manner in which Washington — especially the Defense department — has seemed to try to absolve Israel of any guilt right from the start. Some of these efforts would be laughable but for the terrible tragedy involved."
The Times described the Israeli account as "far-fetched" and continued "mere apology is not enough in a case of this kind. Israel should guarantee stiff punishment for those responsible for the attack."
The official Navy inquiry lasted just eight days, "less time than it took to bury some of the dead," Scott said. Investigators interviewed only a dozen crew members; never visited Israel, reviewed its war logs or signals transcripts; nor interviewed any of the attackers, he added.
Scott's father was awarded the Silver Star, the nation's third-highest award for heroism, for his role during and after the attack. In late 2007, the elder Scott traveled to Israel with his son for research and met with Brig. Gen. Yiftah Spector, one of the pilots who attacked the Liberty.
According to James Scott, Spector stuck out his hand and said, "I'm sorry."
"Those were the words my father and many of his shipmates had wanted to hear for decades, the words no one in the Navy, the White House, or Congress had ever publicly been willing to say," Scott wrote in the book. "My father reached out and took Spector's hand and said, 'Thank you.'"
In addition to the toll on the ship and crew, the incident has had far-reaching repercussions that last to this day.
Relations with Israel and North Korea continue to be among the most festering the United States has.
The Liberty tie to North Korea came with Pyongyang's belief that the Liberty incident demonstrated the United States would not show any backbone if its intelligence ships were attacked. Within months, North Korea seized the spy ship Pueblo in international waters, holding its crew hostage and causing the nation's intelligence community harm that took decades to repair.
"The specter of the Liberty has haunted the Navy and intelligence community for decades," Scott said. "The attack raised important questions over how politics and diplomacy impact battlefield decisions and how we handle these situations. Those questions still resonate today."

Teetop
06-16-2009, 10:07 PM
I just want to ask one thing, gator?

Are you Michael Rivero?

Dumb-ass from :What Really Happened. com (http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/ussliberty.html)

patriot45
06-16-2009, 10:13 PM
I just want to ask one thing, gator?

Are you Michael Rivero?

Dumb-ass from :What Really Happened. com (http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/ussliberty.html)

Unreal that you could get past this! -
McNamara told those heading the Navy's inquiry to "conclude that the attack was a case of 'mistaken identity' despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary."

That pesky little evidence thingy that gets overlooked.

thinker
06-16-2009, 11:12 PM
I've reviewed the Liberty incident several times in history classes and on my own. It's legitimate.

Rockntractor
06-16-2009, 11:29 PM
So what is the correct response? Hate Israel for the net 40 years. Or demand the government bring it back up again? Or Write it off as a mistake of war far in our past?

patriot45
06-16-2009, 11:37 PM
So what is the correct response? Hate Israel for the net 40 years. Or demand the government bring it back up again? Or Write it off as a mistake of war far in our past?

You don't get it. It wasn't a mistake.

thinker
06-16-2009, 11:47 PM
So what is the correct response? Hate Israel for the net 40 years. Or demand the government bring it back up again? Or Write it off as a mistake of war far in our past?

The correct response is to have an open and fair round of hearings or inquiries into the matter, not sweep it under the rug because we can't say or do anything that might hurt Israel's feelings.

I believe Israel has a right to exist - I do NOT believe they have a right to kill anyone and anything in their path to exist how they WANT to.

Rockntractor
06-16-2009, 11:49 PM
The correct response is to have an open and fair round of hearings or inquiries into the matter, not sweep it under the rug because we can't say or do anything that might hurt Israel's feelings.

I believe Israel has a right to exist - I do NOT believe they have a right to kill anyone and anything in their path to exist how they WANT to.
Do you think they would reopen this after 40 years ?

Rockntractor
06-16-2009, 11:52 PM
You don't get it. It wasn't a mistake.
It was a mistake in judgement by the leaders of Israel at the time.

thinker
06-16-2009, 11:57 PM
Do you think they would reopen this after 40 years ?

I think they should; we declassify 40 year old documents all the time in this country. There's never an expiration date on truth.


It was a mistake in judgement by the leaders of Israel at the time.

And I think the veterans of the Liberty and the American people deserve, among other things, the truth about it and an apology. We've apologized for plenty of things in our cultural past; Israel shouldn't be exempt.

Rockntractor
06-17-2009, 12:09 AM
I think they should; we declassify 40 year old documents all the time in this country. There's never an expiration date on truth.



And I think the veterans of the Liberty and the American people deserve, among other things, the truth about it and an apology. We've apologized for plenty of things in our cultural past; Israel shouldn't be exempt.
Are you going to try to do something about it?

megimoo
06-17-2009, 12:12 AM
It was a mistake in judgement by the leaders of Israel at the time.They were also supposed to pay three million in damages to the victums familys and never did .President Johnson let them off the hook for political reasons !
http://wearechangeseattle.org/2009/06/09/flashback-toronto-star-lyndon-johnson-ordered-uss-liberty-cover-up.
..........................................

"Two F-4s (Phantoms) left the carrier to come to the Liberty's aid. Apparently, the jets were armed only with nuclear weapons. When word reached the Pentagon, Defense Secretary Robert McNamara became irate and ordered the jets to return. "Tell the Sixth Fleet to get those aircraft back immediately," he barked. "
...........................................
Rockets, Napalm, Torpedoes & Lies Israel's Attack on the Liberty, Revisited
by JEFFREY ST. CLAIR

[This is an excerpt from CounterPunch's hot new book, The Politics of Anti-Semitism, just released by AK Press.]

In early June of 1967, at the onset of the Six Day War, the Pentagon sent the USS Liberty from Spain into international waters off the coast of Gaza to monitor the progress of Israel's attack on the Arab states. The Liberty was a lightly armed surveillance ship.

Only hours after the Liberty arrived it was spotted by the Israeli military. The IDF sent out reconnaissance planes to identify the ship. They made eight trips over a period of three hours. The Liberty was flying a large US flag and was easily recognizable as an American vessel.

A few hours later more planes came. These were Israeli Mirage III fighters, armed with rockets and machine guns. As off-duty officers sunbathed on the deck, the fighters opened fire on the defenseless ship with rockets and machine guns.

A few minutes later a second wave of planes streaked overhead, French-built Mystere jets, which not only pelted the ship with gunfire but also with napalm bomblets, coating the deck with the flaming jelly. By now, the Liberty was on fire and dozens were wounded and killed, excluding several of the ship's top officers.

The Liberty's radio team tried to issue a distress call, but discovered the frequencies had been jammed by the Israeli planes with what one communications specialist called "a buzzsaw sound." Finally, an open channel was found and the Liberty got out a message it was under attack to the USS America, the Sixth Fleet's large aircraft carrier.

Two F-4s left the carrier to come to the Liberty's aid. Apparently, the jets were armed only with nuclear weapons. When word reached the Pentagon, Defense Secretary Robert McNamara became irate and ordered the jets to return. "Tell the Sixth Fleet to get those aircraft back immediately," he barked. McNamara's injunction was reiterated in saltier terms by Admiral David L. McDonald, the chief of Naval Operations: "You get those fucking airplanes back on deck, and you get them back down." The planes turned around. And the attack on the Liberty continued.

http://www.counterpunch.org/stclair1126.html

megimoo
06-17-2009, 12:13 AM
Are you going to try to do something about it?Obama is !

Rockntractor
06-17-2009, 12:17 AM
President Johnson Is dead. He is the one i fault the most. I don't think the Israel prime minister is alive either. This is a piece of history. The people of Israel were only 20 years past the ovens of germany. Some stupid things were done in fear of survival.

lacarnut
06-17-2009, 12:22 AM
I think they should; we declassify 40 year old documents all the time in this country. There's never an expiration date on truth.



And I think the veterans of the Liberty and the American people deserve, among other things, the truth about it and an apology. We've apologized for plenty of things in our cultural past; Israel shouldn't be exempt.

I agree. However, even if Israel profusely apologized and made other concessions, do you think that would make a difference to those that hate Israel? I don't. Gator has stated that he does not give a shit if Israel is blown off the face of the earth. Nothing would change from his perspective.

Rockntractor
06-17-2009, 12:27 AM
I agree. However, even if Israel profusely apologized and made other concessions, do you think that would make a difference to those that hate Israel? I don't. Gator has stated that he does not give a shit if Israel is blown off the face of the earth. Nothing would change from his perspective.
If gator was sitting in front of the tv right now watching the people of Israel being slaghtered it would not satisfy his hate for them he would just sit their empty. That is what the unwillingess to forgive does to you it just leaves you empty and alone.

thinker
06-17-2009, 12:40 AM
I agree. However, even if Israel profusely apologized and made other concessions, do you think that would make a difference to those that hate Israel? I don't. Gator has stated that he does not give a shit if Israel is blown off the face of the earth. Nothing would change from his perspective.

I'm not trying to appease people who hate Israel. I'm trying to come to grips with the fact that the more I watch the recent (past 30 years) historical arc of Israel's actions, the more I see a very brutal, very ethically bankrupt and very well funded xenophobic leadership destroying any chance for a just, peaceful Israeli state.

Putting the Liberty to bed in an honorable and honest way would be a step in the other (and right) direction.

megimoo
06-17-2009, 12:42 AM
If gator was sitting in front of the tv right now watching the people of Israel being slaghtered it would not satisfy his hate for them he would just sit their empty. That is what the unwillingess to forgive does to you it just leaves you empty and alone.

Lots of men who fought in WW2 never forgave the Japanses for their crimes against them .

It's interesting to watch some of those old "Victory At Sea' video's of the battle for Iwo Jims and Siapan .The Marines never stopped once they landed on Okinawa and 'rolled up' the entire Japanese garrison from one end to the other over several months.

Every year they hold a ceramony on Iwo Jima with Marine survivors and Japanese pilots who were in the fighter program as very young men.Some of the very old marines in wheelchairs still refuse to shake hands with the japanese survivors and reman alouf from them .

Sonnabend
06-17-2009, 07:15 AM
What was a US spy ship doing there?

Who and what were its intelligence targets?

What information was being transmitted?

SarasotaRepub
06-17-2009, 07:24 AM
The correct response is to have an open and fair round of hearings or inquiries into the matter, not sweep it under the rug because we can't say or do anything that might hurt Israel's feelings.

I believe Israel has a right to exist - I do NOT believe they have a right to kill anyone and anything in their path to exist how they WANT to.

Of course they do, so do we. How do you think you get to be a SuperPower? :confused::p

lacarnut
06-17-2009, 08:09 AM
I'm not trying to appease people who hate Israel. I'm trying to come to grips with the fact that the more I watch the recent (past 30 years) historical arc of Israel's actions, the more I see a very brutal, very ethically bankrupt and very well funded xenophobic leadership destroying any chance for a just, peaceful Israeli state.

Putting the Liberty to bed in an honorable and honest way would be a step in the other (and right) direction.

Since one side is hell bent on wiping the other off the face of the globe, you will not see peace in the M.E. There is just too much hatred there. Looks like Obama is going to follow in Carter's footsteps and lick the boots of our enemy.

What other steps could be taken if Israel apologizes and pays restitution. We both know that it will not happen so I do not know what good it does to keep beating a dead horse. Some things you can not change as much as you would like them to. It is called reality.

gator
06-17-2009, 08:22 AM
So what is the correct response? Hate Israel for the net 40 years. Or demand the government bring it back up again? Or Write it off as a mistake of war far in our past?

Is there a statute of limitations on the murder of US servicemen or American citizens? If so then all Bin Laden has to do is hang out in his cave for a little while longer, right?

To answer your question; how about incorporating the suggesstions of the Moorer Independent Commission?

What is wrong with honoring the men of the Liberty, who gave their lives for their country, and with doing a real investigation by Congress to find out the truth of the attack and the cover up?

The pro Israel supporters hate the suggestions of the Commission because they are afraid the people of the US will wake up to the fact that Israel is not our friend and never will be.



Findings of the Independent Commission of Inquiry
into the Israeli Attack on USS Liberty,
the Recall of Military Rescue Support Aircraft
while the Ship was Under Attack, and the
Subsequent Cover-up by the United States Government


CAPITOL HILL, WASHINGTON, D.C.
OCTOBER 22, 2003

ADMIRAL THOMAS H. MOORER, UNITED STATES NAVY, (RET.)
FORMER CHAIRMAN, JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF

GENERAL RAYMOND G. DAVIS, UNITED STATES MARINE CORPS, (MOH)*
FORMER ASSISTANT COMMANDANT OF THE MARINE CORPS

REAR ADMIRAL MERLIN STARING, UNITED STATES NAVY, (RET.)
FORMER JUDGE ADVOCATE GENERAL OF THE NAVY HH

AMBASSADOR JAMES AKINS, (RET.)
FORMER UNITED STATES AMBASSADOR TO SAUDI ARABIA


Chief Attorney of the 1967 Court of Inquiry
Captain Boston's Affidavit
Commonly Asked Questions about USS Liberty
Who are the Commissioners of this Independent Investigation?
We, the undersigned, having undertaken an independent investigation of Israel�s attack on USS Liberty, including eyewitness testimony from surviving crewmembers, a review of naval and other official records, an examination of official statements by the Israeli and American governments, a study of the conclusions of all previous official inquiries, and a consideration of important new evidence and recent statements from individuals having direct knowledge of the attack or the cover up, hereby find the following: **

1. That on June 8, 1967, after eight hours of aerial surveillance, Israel launched a two-hour air and naval attack against USS Liberty, the world�s most sophisticated intelligence ship, inflicting 34 dead and 172 wounded American servicemen (a casualty rate of seventy percent, in a crew of 294);

2. That the Israeli air attack lasted approximately 25 minutes, during which time unmarked Israeli aircraft dropped napalm canisters on USS Liberty's bridge, and fired 30mm cannons and rockets into our ship, causing 821 holes, more than 100 of which were rocket-size; survivors estimate 30 or more sorties were flown over the ship by a minimum of 12 attacking Israeli planes which were jamming all five American emergency radio channels;

3. That the torpedo boat attack involved not only the firing of torpedoes, but the machine-gunning of Liberty�s firefighters and stretcher-bearers as they struggled to save their ship and crew; the Israeli torpedo boats later returned to machine-gun at close range three of the Liberty�s life rafts that had been lowered into the water by survivors to rescue the most seriously wounded;

4. That there is compelling evidence that Israel�s attack was a deliberate attempt to destroy an American ship and kill her entire crew; evidence of such intent is supported by statements from Secretary of State Dean Rusk, Undersecretary of State George Ball, former CIA director Richard Helms, former NSA directors Lieutenant General William Odom, USA (Ret.), Admiral Bobby Ray Inman, USN (Ret.), and Marshal Carter; former NSA deputy directors Oliver Kirby and Major General John Morrison, USAF (Ret.); and former Ambassador Dwight Porter, U.S. Ambassador to Lebanon in 1967;

5. That in attacking USS Liberty, Israel committed acts of murder against American servicemen and an act of war against the United States;

6. That fearing conflict with Israel, the White House deliberately prevented the U.S. Navy from coming to the defense of USS Liberty by recalling Sixth Fleet military rescue support while the ship was under attack; evidence of the recall of rescue aircraft is supported by statements of Captain Joe Tully, Commanding Officer of the aircraft carrier USS Saratoga, and Rear Admiral Lawrence Geis, the Sixth Fleet carrier division commander, at the time of the attack; never before in American naval history has a rescue mission been cancelled when an American ship was under attack;

7. That although Liberty was saved from almost certain destruction through the heroic efforts of the ship�s Captain, William L. McGonagle (MOH), and his brave crew, surviving crewmembers were later threatened with �court-martial, imprisonment or worse� if they exposed the truth; and were abandoned by their own government;

8. That due to the influence of Israel�s powerful supporters in the United States, the White House deliberately covered up the facts of this attack from the American people;

9. That due to continuing pressure by the pro-Israel lobby in the United States, this attack remains the only serious naval incident that has never been thoroughly investigated by Congress; to this day, no surviving crewmember has been permitted to officially and publicly testify about the attack;

10. That there has been an official cover-up without precedent in American naval history; the existence of such a cover-up is now supported by statements of Rear Admiral Merlin Staring, USN (Ret.), former Judge Advocate General of the Navy; and Captain Ward Boston, USN, (Ret.), the chief counsel to the Navy�s 1967 Court of Inquiry of Liberty attack;

11. That the truth about Israel�s attack and subsequent White House cover-up continues to be officially concealed from the American people to the present day and is a national disgrace;

12. That a danger to our national security exists whenever our elected officials are willing to subordinate American interests to those of any foreign nation, and specifically are unwilling to challenge Israel�s interests when they conflict with American interests; this policy, evidenced by the failure to defend USS Liberty and the subsequent official cover-up of the Israeli attack, endangers the safety of Americans and the security of the United States.

WHEREUPON, we, the undersigned, in order to fulfill our duty to the brave crew of USS Liberty and to all Americans who are asked to serve in our Armed Forces, hereby call upon the Department of the Navy, the Congress of the United States and the American people to immediately take the following actions:

FIRST: That a new Court of Inquiry be convened by the Department of the Navy, operating with Congressional oversight, to take public testimony from surviving crewmembers; and to thoroughly investigate the circumstances of the attack on the USS Liberty, with full cooperation from the National Security Agency, the Central Intelligence Agency and the military intelligence services, and to determine Israel�s possible motive in launching said attack on a U.S. naval vessel;

SECOND: That every appropriate committee of the Congress of the United States investigate the actions of the White House and Defense Department that prevented the rescue of the USS Liberty, thereafter threatened her surviving officers and men if they exposed the truth, and covered up the true circumstances of the attack from the American people; and

THIRD: That the eighth day of June of every year be proclaimed to be hereafter known as

USS LIBERTY REMEMBRANCE DAY, in order to commemorate USS Liberty�s heroic crew; and to educate the American people of the danger to our national security inherent in any passionate attachment of our elected officials for any foreign nation.
We, the undersigned, hereby affix our hands and seals, this 22nd day of October, 2003.

Thomas H. Moorer
Former Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff


General of Marines Raymond G. Davis, USMC, MOH*


Merlin Staring
Rear Admiral Merlin Staring, USN, Ret.,
Former Judge Advocate General of the Navy,


James Akins
Ambassador James Akins, Ret.,
Former United States Ambassador to Saudi Arabia,


*IN MEMORIAM: General of Marines Raymond G. Davis, one of America�s most decorated military heroes (including the Congressional Medal of Honor), Vice Chairman of this panel and one of the principal members of this Independent Commission of Inquiry, passed away in Conyers, Georgia, on September 3, 2003.

gator
06-17-2009, 08:29 AM
What other steps could be taken if Israel apologizes and pays restitution.

We could do the right thing and hold Israel accountable for their crimes, couldn't we?

Isn't that what you do to terrorist or do we just give the Israelis a pass?

You do you know that the crewmembers of the USS Liberty are calling for a war crimes investigation against the Isrealis don't you?

We know the Israelis don't believe in a statue of limitations on war crimes so why should the US? We also know that the Israelis will hold people accountable for war crimes, many years later so why shouldn't we do the same thing?



USS Liberty Veterans
Association Announces
War Crime Charges
Filed Against Israel
USSLiberty.org
6-6-5

(Washington, DC) -- On Friday, June 10 at 1:00 pm, Hotel Washington, 515 15th St NW, in the Washington Room 11th floor (hit R for roof in elevator), Moe Shafer, board member of the USS Liberty Veterans Association and Rear Admiral Merlin Staring, USN, Ret., Former Judge Advocate General of the Navy who was involved with the initial Court of Inquiry investigating the attack in 1967 will present details of the Report of War Crimes brief filed on behalf of the USS Liberty Veterans Association concerning the 1967 Israeli attack on the USS Liberty.

The Report was filed with by James R. Gotcher, General Legal Counsel, USS - LVA, with the Secretary of Defense at the Pentagon on June 8, the 38th anniversary of the attack on the USS Liberty.


By establishing prima facie evidence that Israel committed war crimes the Secretary of Defense under existing Dept. Of Defense directives is obligated to initiate an inquiry into the commission of war crimes, an investigation that should have been carried out 38 years ago.

Phillygirl
06-17-2009, 09:31 AM
If gator was sitting in front of the tv right now watching the people of Israel being slaghtered it would not satisfy his hate for them he would just sit their empty. That is what the unwillingess to forgive does to you it just leaves you empty and alone.

I've never seen Gator indicate hatred for the people of Israel. I have seen him show disgust for their governing bodies, and ours, in terms of our policies with them.

lacarnut
06-17-2009, 09:38 AM
I've never seen Gator indicate hatred for the people of Israel. I have seen him show disgust for their governing bodies, and ours, in terms of our policies with them.

It would be kinda hard to wipe Israel off the face of the earth without killing all the people living there. Correct. He has advocated that on several occasions along with using terminology like filthy Jew's.

Phillygirl
06-17-2009, 10:49 AM
It would be kinda hard to wipe Israel off the face of the earth without killing all the people living there. Correct. He has advocated that on several occasions along with using terminology like filthy Jew's.

I haven't seen him advocate wiping Israel off the face of the earth. I have seen him advocate that the U.S. should stop giving them the aid that we are giving them. Some would then posit that that would result in Israel being wiped off the face of the earth and thereby attribute to him that desire.

As for the filthy Jews comment, I have missed that, but I'm sure you have a link to it.

gator
06-17-2009, 11:14 AM
I haven't seen him advocate wiping Israel off the face of the earth. I have seen him advocate that the U.S. should stop giving them the aid that we are giving them. Some would then posit that that would result in Israel being wiped off the face of the earth and thereby attribute to him that desire.

As for the filthy Jews comment, I have missed that, but I'm sure you have a link to it.

I have only said that I have respect for Jews. As a Christian I consider myself a spiritual Jew.

I have called the Israelis filthy and will continue to do so. Any country that attacks my country is filthy as far as I am concerned.

It is amazing that a discussion on the USS Liberty always ends up in a discussion on anti Semitism. That is what the pro Israelis supporters have to use because they cannot explain or justify the attack on the Liberty. They then play the old racial hatred card.

The crewmembers of the USS Liberty were called anti Semites when they first started to speak out against the attack and the cover up.

Here is an article by the VFW talking about the accusations. It is amazing that American veterans are accused of that bullshit just because they want justice from Israel. That shows the lows the pro Israel supporters will stoop to in order to protect their beloved Israel.



http://www.vfw.org/index.cfm?fa=news.magDtl&dtl=3&mid=2639



Mission Memorial: Remembering the USS Liberty

For the veterans of the USS Liberty, commemorating their fellow crew members killed in action became an all-consuming passion.

By Susan Katz Keating

On June 8, 1967, the USS Liberty was under way about 25 miles off the Gaza coast, in international waters. An old freighter-turned-intelligence ship, the Liberty clearly flew its U.S. flag while monitoring developments in the Arab-Israeli, or Six-Day, War.

At about 8 a.m., Liberty crewmen waved jaunty greetings to low-flying Israeli reconnaissance planes. Six hours later, the friendly greetings turned to frantic shouts, as Israeli fighter-bombers and torpedo boats strove mercilessly to sink the unarmed ship.

By the time the assault was over, 34 crewmen were dead. Another 171--including the ship's captain--lay wounded.

Afterward, Israel said it had mistaken the Liberty for an Egyptian warship. The surviving Liberty crewmen--and a number of U.S. government officials--believed the attack was deliberate. And yet, the issue seemed to evaporate from public consciousness. Almost as soon as it happened, the Liberty incident was cast aside--by all but the crewmen.

Remember the Liberty

In the years since the attack, Liberty survivors have steadfastly worked to create more than 30 memorials to their fallen crewmen. The memorials have taken the form of golf course tee boxes, street names, military barracks, a medical clinic and even a library. In the process, the veterans have encountered both effusive support and intense opposition. Throughout, the goal has remained unchanged: Remember the Liberty.

"The survivors still don't have all the answers to what happened," says Mike Pierson, commander of VFW Post 3699 in Indio, Calif. "But they understand each other and their purpose in dedicating these memorials."

Pierson, who did not serve onboard the ship, worked closely with Liberty survivor Don Pageler to dedicate a tree to the USS Liberty crew and Capt. William McGonagle.

As an outsider, Pierson saw not only Pageler's determination to memorialize the crew, but also learned much about the Liberty veterans and their ongoing quest. "They stayed loyal to each other, and to the men who died on the Liberty," he says. "They devoted themselves to setting up these memorials. It's been like a mission."

Going on the Offensive

The mission took shape in 1982, when survivors held their first reunion and formed the Liberty Veterans Association. Among other things, the group decided that they would memorialize the ship and her fallen crew.

One by one, the veterans took action.

Ron Kukal, who was perilously close to the point of impact when an Israeli torpedo hit the Liberty, began writing to various states and cities, requesting official proclamations honoring the
Liberty.

Bob Casale, who served on the Liberty but was not onboard during the attack, set up a commemorative display inside his business--Liberty Plumbing and Heating Supply--in Hicksville, N.Y.

Former ship's boilerman John Hrankowski persuaded reluctant officials in Poughkeepsie, N.Y., to include a shipmate's name on a local war memorial.

Jim Ennes, who was an electronic materiel officer aboard the Liberty, took on Arlington National Cemetery. Ennes, the author of Assault on the Liberty, was incensed to discover that a six-man grave for Liberty dead at Arlington contained the inscription, "Died in the Eastern Mediterranean."

The inscription implied that the men were killed "in a whorehouse fire or a taxicab accident in Beirut," Ennes says. He embarked on a campaign to change the inscription to read, "Killed - USS Liberty."

"That grave was soon regarded as a memorial and was visited by the crew at each reunion," Ennes says. "Things went on from there."

However, the pursuit of remembrance has not entirely been smooth sailing.

Battle of Grafton

In 1987, the village of Grafton, Wis., decided to build a new library using only donated funds. Two brothers, Ben and Ed Grob, contributed $400,000. This entitled them to pick the library's name.

The elderly duo had read Ennes' book and were moved to honor the ship. They asked to name the new structure the USS Liberty Memorial Library.

"I was so choked up I couldn't talk," says former Grafton village president Jim Grant, a Navy veteran who knew the USS Liberty story. "I thought it was a beautiful and fitting tribute."

Grant also thought that the proposed name would not present a problem. "Well ... surprise, surprise," Grant says. "The opposition was overwhelming."

Angry outsiders falsely accused the townspeople of anti-Semitism.

"That was the disorienting part," says villager John Dickmann, who was involved in fund-raising for the library. "They tried to make it seem as if we were against the entire state of Israel because we planned to name our library after the Liberty."

"It had nothing to do with the state of Israel," Grant says. "This was a memorial to American servicemen."

The controversy dragged on for two years, during which time the Milwaukee Journal led the opposition. Protesters came in via bus from Milwaukee to disrupt the groundbreaking. Hecklers attended the dedication. Police were on hand to provide protection. But the library went up as planned and has not been the focus of further controversy.

'An Inspiration'
Elsewhere, memorials rejected by one locale enthusiastically were adopted by another.
A city in Michigan turned down the offer of a memorial stone listing crewmembers' names. Instead, because of the efforts of curator Stan Bozich, Michigan's Own Military and Space Museum in Frankenmuth welcomed the stone.

The U.S. Navy actually rejected an offer to house the USS Liberty's flag. The battle-worn colors found a home at the National Security Agency's National Cryptologic Museum at Ft. George Meade, Md., where it was made part of a display honoring the former spy ship.

"The Liberty exhibit has been one of our most popular displays," says recently retired museum curator Jack Ingram. "People tend to really look at it."

In Zimmerman, Minn., citizens eagerly chipped in to build a memorial and picnic area dedicated to the Liberty; American Legion Post 560 raised $12,000 toward the project. At Goodfellow Air Force Base in San Angelo, Texas, the USS Liberty's original commissioning plaque was made part of a park display.

Next on the agenda: placing a plaque in the home state of every Liberty crewman killed in the attack. Gary Brummett and other members of the Liberty Veterans Association board are spearheading the effort.

"Their loyalty is unwavering," the VFW's Pierson marvels. "It's an inspiration to us all."
Editor's Note: At least nine Liberty vets are VFW members, including Mark Kram, who is commander of Post 7464 in Grasonville, Md. This article would not have been possible without the special efforts of Ron Kukal and Don Pageler.

gator
06-17-2009, 11:20 AM
Here is another article written by a Jewish Rabbi condemning the hatred against the people that want justice for the crewmembers:
http://hnn.us/articles/194.html

USS Liberty: False Allegations of Anti-Semitism
By Yomin Postelnik
Mr. Postelnik studied in rabbinical seminaries in Florida as well as in Canada. He has also taught at similar seminaries. He is currently in Ontario, Canada where he is starting a small monthly dedicated to conservative world politics and gives regular classes to adults in Jewish philosophy.

I am writing this piece, myself being a religious Jew (with rabbinical ordination) and one who is very troubled not only by Israel’s attack of an American ship but also by the cover-up that ensued and the false accusations hurled at those who only want the truth to be known. Survivors of the attack have been slandered as being anti-semitic when this is not at all the case. I have seen this slander repeated in many a book review or article dealing with the Liberty. Some slander has also come from the Anti-Defamation League. This group in particular has been known to suppress any thought contrary to its agenda of the day. As a result it has become the scorn of many Jews. In this case the ADL repeatedly sought to block coverage of the Liberty incident and even raised objections to memorials in honor of the victims. The Wisconsin Jewish Chronicle, June 21, 1991, quotes one Howard Rosenburg as follows:

"The Anti-Defamation League of B'nai Brith (ADL) has questioned the motivation behind a June 8 White House ceremony honoring surviving crew members of the USS Liberty, a naval intelligence ship bombed by Israel aircraft during the 1967 Six Day War. Thirty-four American seamen died in the episode.... ADL hopes that the reason for the White House reception was simply to honor the Liberty members, not to give a stamp of approval to those seeking to malign Israel."

As for the charge of anti-semitism, the fact is that retired Naval Officer Jim Ennes (himself a survivor of the attack and one who has faced some of the worst accusations as a result of his extensive work to uncover the truth surrounding it) was himself director of a local board against racism. Some "anti-semite"! I have been in contact with him as well as with many of the other survivors. They do not blame "Jews.," They know the attack had been deliberate on the part of Israel and this is where they lay the blame.

Let us examine what happened on that day, June 8, 1967. Throughout that entire morning Israeli planes continuously flew past the USS Liberty. As they passed by they would wave to the ship’s crew, the waves being reciprocated by those on deck. Both parties had recognized each other. Granted these were not the same planes as those which would later bomb the ship, but herein lies just one proof that the ship had been easily recognisable as an American vessel.

Early that fateful afternoon, about 1500 Liberty time, the first bombers flew above the ship. After the initial bombing Israeli torpedoes attacked from the sea. As the entire crew tried to man lifeboats in order to escape, the Israeli planes shot bullets upon them as they were escaping. The ship was also completely covered in napalm. The ship was easily identifiable as being an American vessel. Besides the fact that every Israeli plane that had flown above the ship that very day had easily recognized it as an American vessel, the Liberty flew a huge US flag on its deck that was impossible to miss. Furthermore, the Israelis claimed that no US markings were visible. This statement of theirs proves without a doubt that there was a cover-up. Many top officials have come forward. Admiral Thomas Moorer, former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staffs, has called the cover-up a preposterous lie and has tried to expose the attack for what it was. Secretary of State Dean Rusk also clearly stated that the attack was deliberate as did Clark Clifford, Counsel to LBJ and himself a staunch supporter of Israel.

Anyone who takes the time to investigate the attack quickly realizes that it was one launched deliberately. Yet the innocent Liberty men are repeatedly slandered and those who seek justice are accused of anti-semitism. Many Jews have come forward to challenge these ridiculous assertions but still not enough. Judaism demands loyalty to one’s country, not to a state of Jews half a world away. It is true that Jews have always defended each other, but only when the other is right and the case is just. Judaism does not support brutality and it is high time for American Jews to support the cause of these innocent men and to battle the constant slander they have now faced for decades.

It is also high time for Israel to admit what transpired and to come forth with the reason for the attack. There is absolutely no doubt that it was a purposeful one despite the amount of protest to the contrary. For those who still question the validity of this argument, they must make it their business to read up on the attack and the circumstances surrounding it. I have and therefore I see that there is no question, the attack was launched purposefully.

No one deserves to be labelled an anti-semite. Men who have served America well and who were brutally attacked as a result should definitely never have to face such slander. They served America and it is high time America stands with them and demands justice. They have suffered for years as a result of slander, as a result of being told to keep quiet and because Congress has to this day refused to investigate the issue. I sincerely hope that other Jews demand a congressional inquiry into the attack and that this inquiry will finally bring forth the truth that noble men who served nobly have waited for, for so long now. Our prayers must be with them and through our actions we must help them by demanding such an inquiry.

Phillygirl
06-17-2009, 11:22 AM
I have only said that I have respect for Jews. As a Christian I consider myself a spiritual Jew.

I have called the Israelis filthy and will continue to do so. Any country that attacks my country is filthy as far as I am concerned.

It is amazing that a discussion on the USS Liberty always ends up in a discussion on anti Semitism. That is what the pro Israelis supporters have to use because they cannot explain or justify the attack on the Liberty. They then play the old racial hatred card.

The crewmembers of the USS Liberty were called anti Semites when they first started to speak out against the attack and the cover up.


Yes. Sometimes it feels like DU around here.

Rebel Yell
06-17-2009, 11:27 AM
It is amazing that a discussion involving Gator always ends up in a discussion on anti Semitism. That is what the pro Israelis supporters have to use because they cannot explain or justify the attack on the Liberty. They then play the old racial hatred card.

Fixed.:D

megimoo
06-17-2009, 11:54 AM
Robert McNamara on USS Liberty

Excerpt from doctoral dissertation by Dr. John Borne:
Even at the top levels of the Johnson administration, where one might expect a consensus on the basic facts, we find opposing opinions on the fundamental question of whether the attack was accidental or deliberate. Lyndon Johnson in his memoirs called the attack "a tragic accident." Robert McNamara, his Secretary of Defense, has stated "I didn't believe [the attack] was intended at the time, and I don't believe it now." Dean Rusk, Johnson's Secretary of State (in the only instance where he disagreed with the President) has said "I was never satisfied with the Israeli explanation. Their sustained attack to disable and sink LIBERTY precluded an assault by accident or some trigger-happy local commander. I didn't believe it then, and I don't believe it to this day. The attack was outrageous."
http://www.ussliberty.org/mcnamara.htm
.............................

megimoo
06-17-2009, 12:07 PM
The Liberty Incident

"McNamara was Involved up to his neck in the Liberty sinking decision !"

Interview of Robert S. McNamara

snip

RSM: June 8th, oh I'm sorry. Yes. Well, it may have been after the Liberty, but in any event, it might have been before and this you could check and it throws a little light on Dean's comment.

After the Israelis preempted the Egyptian strike which all of us believed was coming...we...Johnson, Dean, and I thought we had persuaded the Israelis not to preempt, because we feared that if the Israelis preempted the Egyptian attack which they wished to do in order to reduce their casualties, we feared that if the combat, escalated conflict, escalated, and we ultimately were required to come in, in support of the Israelis, the American people would be less likely to support U.S. support of the Israelis, if the Israelis had attacked first.

Even though we knew and the Israelis knew that the Egyptians were about to attack. In any event, it turned out that, contrary to our beliefs, Johnson, Rusk and I had not been persuasive with the band of Israelis. They did preempt. They knocked the hell out of the Egyptians and then also, the Jordanians. And then we were concerned that the Russians might back the Syrians in responding to the Israeli attack on the Egyptians and the Jordanians for fear, perhaps, that the Israelis were then going to attack the Syrians so the Sixth Fleet was moving to the west in the Mediterranean.

They were moving towards Gibraltar and with the President's authority, we turned it around and sent it steaming back toward, not toward Israel, but to the east. Not to support an Israel attack on Syria at all, but rather to have it relatively near Israel in the event the Soviets supported a Syrian attack on Israel.

So that was the condition. In any event, I arrived at my office at 7:00, either just before or just after the Liberty attack and at 7:15 a.m., the telephone rang and it was the Duty Officer, we had a General officer or an Admiral in the War Room on duty 24 hours a day, seven days a week and the Duty Officer said that Secretary Kosygin is on the Hot Line and wants to talk to the President.

What should we tell him? I said, "Well, why do you call me?" Now, you won't believe this but this is now June '67 and the Hot Line was installed following the Cuban Missile Crisis so it probably was installed in early '63 so the damn thing had been there four years and he said to me "Well, I'm calling you because the Hot Line ends in the Pentagon." I didn't even know that. It had never been used other than by the sergeants who tested it to make sure that the thing worked. And, of course, it was a teletype, it wasn't a telephone. In any event, the thing ended in the Pentagon.

So I said to the Duty Officer, "Well, I don't know," our defense budge then was about $40 billion. I said, "You take a few thousands of dollars out of that $40 billion and you figure out how the hell to patch this Hot Line from the Pentagon over to the Situation Room in the White House and I'll call the President and we'll figure out what to do." So I called the President, I knew...this was about 7:30 by now, and I knew he was asleep, but he had a sergeant outside his door. Poor sergeant. The sergeant would take the calls. And when I called him, the sergeant answers, and I said "I want to speak to the President," and he says, "The President is sleeping," and I said "Hell, I know he is asleep Sarge, wake him." He said, "He doesn't like to be awoken." And I said "Look goddamn it, wake the President.

" So the President comes on the phone, he said "What in the hell are you calling at this time of the morning for Bob?" And I said "Well, Kosygin is on the Hot Line Mr. President and wants to speak to you. How would you wish to handle it?" He said, "My God, what do you think we ought to do?" I said, "Why don't we reply that you'll go down to the terminal in 15 minutes or so, and respond to him then and in the meantime, I'll call Dean Rusk, and Dean and I will meet you in the Situation Room in 15 minutes." So he said, "Fine." So we go over, and we get Dean and the three of us meet down there and the message comes in, I'm not entirely clear now whether the first message said what I'm about to say, or whether it was the second message, but in any event, a message over the Hot Line said "If you want war you're going to get war.

" Now the reason that the Soviets said that was that they saw the Sixth Fleet steaming back there and they interpreted that as our determination to back an Israeli attempt against Syria and they just wanted to make clear that they wouldn't tolerate it. So I mention all this simply to throw light on why, if this Hot Line incident came after the Liberty, then I think Dean's report of what happened in the Situation Room, when we got information on the Liberty attack is credible, if it came, if the Hot Line came before the Liberty, I would think it's less credible. In any event, I don't recall.

AJC: Are you familiar with the report made by Clark Clifford in his capacity as Chairman of the President's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board?

snip
http://www.thelibertyincident.com/mcnamara.html

.....................................
MEMORANDUM:
From: Admiral Thomas H. Moorer

Subject: Attack on the USS Liberty June 8, 1967

snip
Israel knew perfectly well that the ship was American. After all, the Liberty's American flag and markings were in full view in perfect visibility for the Israeli aircraft that overflew the ship eight times over a period of nearly eight hours prior to the attack. I am confident that Israel knew the Liberty could intercept radio messages from all parties and potential parties to the ongoing war, then in its fourth day, and that Israel was preparing to seize the Golan Heights from Syria despite President Johnson's known opposition to such a move. I think they realized that if we learned in advance of their plan, there would be a tremendous amount of negotiating between Tel Aviv and Washington.

And I believe Moshe Dayan concluded that he could prevent Washington from becoming aware of what Israel was up to by destroying the primary source of acquiring that information the USS Liberty. The result was a wanton sneak attack that left 34 American sailors dead and 171 seriously injured. What is so chilling and cold-blooded, of course, is that they could kill as many Americans as they did in confidence that Washington would cooperate in quelling any public outcry.

I have to conclude that it was Israel's intent to sink the Liberty and leave as few survivors as possible. Up to the point where the torpedo boats were sent in, you could speculate on that point. You have to remember that the Liberty was an intelligence ship, not a fighting ship, and its only defensive weapons were a pair of 50-caliber machine guns both aft and on the forecastle. There was little the men could do to fight off the air assault from Israeli jets that pounded the Liberty with bombs, rockets, napalm and machine gun fire for 25 minutes.
snip
http://www.ussliberty.org/moorer3.htm

lacarnut
06-17-2009, 12:34 PM
I haven't seen him advocate wiping Israel off the face of the earth. I have seen him advocate that the U.S. should stop giving them the aid that we are giving them. Some would then posit that that would result in Israel being wiped off the face of the earth and thereby attribute to him that desire.

As for the filthy Jews comment, I have missed that, but I'm sure you have a link to it.

He has advocated wiping Israel off the face of the earth and also used the term filthy Jews. Believe what you want.

I am all for an investigation, an apology and compensation; I just don't hate Jews like Gator.

If I had my way, I would try McNamara for derelict of duty. That SOB cost the US tens of thousands of lives.

gator
06-17-2009, 01:08 PM
He has advocated wiping Israel off the face of the earth and also used the term filthy Jews. Believe what you want.

.

Can you back that up or are you like Odysseus and make shit like that up?

I have never called for the destruction of Israel. I have only called for justice for the crewmembers of the USS Liberty and for my tax money to stop going to any Middle East country, including Israel. That is a pro American agenda.

Let me tell you what I have said on occasion since you seemed to be confused:

I don’t really care if Israel survives or not. That is not my concern. They are a rich country so let them provide for their own security. I have also said the same thing about South Korea.

I have said I think the Israelis are the aggressors in their conflict with the Palestinians. I have use hyperbole to speculate on the moral justice of America turning the tables and giving the Palestinians the same weapons as we give the Israelis. I have said that is nothing more than a fantasy and I have prefaced it with saying that the real best thing to do would be to not arm either side.

Just so that you won’t be confused in the future let me repeat my position on Israel:

1. I do not think it is in the best interest of the US to be involved in guaranteeing the security of Israel or any other Middle East country.

2. I think it is immoral for my country to be giving weapons to the Israelis that the Israelis use to kill Palestinians and take their land away.

3. I think that from an economic standpoint we need to stop giving our money away to any foreign country when we are running trillion dollar debts each year.

4. I think we need to get justice for the crewmembers of the Liberty and at a minimum adopt the recommendations of the Moorer Independent Commission. That would include a real investigation and honoring the men of the USS Liberty. Once we did a real investigation we can then determine the appropriate level of response to Israel. If we find out that the Israelis killed American servicemen on purpose that appropriate level of response should be to cut off diplomatic relationships as we do with other belligerent terrorist countries.

5. I think that any American that put the welfare of Israel (or any other foreign country) ahead of the interest of America is a traitor.

Now tell me where I call for the destruction of Israel.

Also show me where I have ever used the term "filthy Jews".

lacarnut
06-17-2009, 02:19 PM
Can you back that up or are you like Odysseus and make shit like that up?


Now tell me where I call for the destruction of Israel.

Also show me where I have ever used the term "filthy Jews".

I am 99% sure you stated that. However, I am 100% sure that as an administrator, you would have banned someone if they had disparaged Odysseus patrotism like you have. I thought bashing soldiers was off limits. Don't tell me you did not call him a SOB also.

Phillygirl
06-17-2009, 02:43 PM
I am 99% sure you stated that. However, I am 100% sure that as an administrator, you would have banned someone if they had disparaged Odysseus patrotism like you have. I thought bashing soldiers was off limits. Don't tell me you did not call him a SOB also.

Are you talking about in this thread, or elsewhere?

lacarnut
06-17-2009, 03:11 PM
Are you talking about in this thread, or elsewhere?

The Ron Paul thread in General D. on 6-14-09 See post 43 & 46. That is some crazy shit there.

Phillygirl
06-17-2009, 03:42 PM
The Ron Paul thread in General D. on 6-14-09 See post 43 & 46. That is some crazy shit there.

While I don't agree with Gator's take on Odysseus' patriotism, I've never seen CU rules to merit refraining from criticizing someone simply because they are a member of the military. Nor do I recall Gator taking that stand, although many other members (most of whom are no longer here regularly) certainly did.

Odysseus
06-17-2009, 03:45 PM
I have only said that I have respect for Jews. As a Christian I consider myself a spiritual Jew.

You've said a few other things about Jews as well:


As far as Christians are concerned Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Wiccans and the rest will not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven because they do not accept the Grace of God through the blood of Jesus Christ. I am sorry but I didn’t make up the rules. I just quote them.

So, according to you, Jews aren't going to Heaven, but you consider yourself a spiritual Jew. Got it. So I can expect to see you in the fiery pit on the next bench?

Phillygirl
06-17-2009, 03:48 PM
You've said a few other things about Jews as well:



So, according to you, Jews aren't going to Heaven, but you consider yourself a spiritual Jew. Got it. So I can expect to see you in the fiery pit on the next bench?

No, he didn't state it was according to him, but rather that is his understanding of Christianity's take on it. Again, he may be mistaken in terms of interpreting a global Christian position on this. Being Catholic, I think my rules indicate the Baptists aren't getting in either.

Teetop
06-17-2009, 05:19 PM
They were also supposed to pay three million in damages to the victums familys and never did .President Johnson let them off the hook for political reasons !
http://wearechangeseattle.org/2009/06/09/flashback-toronto-star-lyndon-johnson-ordered-uss-liberty-cover-up.
..........................................

"Two F-4s (Phantoms) left the carrier to come to the Liberty's aid. Apparently, the jets were armed only with nuclear weapons. When word reached the Pentagon, Defense Secretary Robert McNamara became irate and ordered the jets to return. "Tell the Sixth Fleet to get those aircraft back immediately," he barked. "
...........................................
Rockets, Napalm, Torpedoes & Lies Israel's Attack on the Liberty, Revisited
by JEFFREY ST. CLAIR

[This is an excerpt from CounterPunch's hot new book, The Politics of Anti-Semitism, just released by AK Press.]

In early June of 1967, at the onset of the Six Day War, the Pentagon sent the USS Liberty from Spain into international waters off the coast of Gaza to monitor the progress of Israel's attack on the Arab states. The Liberty was a lightly armed surveillance ship.

Only hours after the Liberty arrived it was spotted by the Israeli military. The IDF sent out reconnaissance planes to identify the ship. They made eight trips over a period of three hours. The Liberty was flying a large US flag and was easily recognizable as an American vessel.

A few hours later more planes came. These were Israeli Mirage III fighters, armed with rockets and machine guns. As off-duty officers sunbathed on the deck, the fighters opened fire on the defenseless ship with rockets and machine guns.

A few minutes later a second wave of planes streaked overhead, French-built Mystere jets, which not only pelted the ship with gunfire but also with napalm bomblets, coating the deck with the flaming jelly. By now, the Liberty was on fire and dozens were wounded and killed, excluding several of the ship's top officers.

The Liberty's radio team tried to issue a distress call, but discovered the frequencies had been jammed by the Israeli planes with what one communications specialist called "a buzzsaw sound." Finally, an open channel was found and the Liberty got out a message it was under attack to the USS America, the Sixth Fleet's large aircraft carrier.

Two F-4s left the carrier to come to the Liberty's aid. Apparently, the jets were armed only with nuclear weapons. When word reached the Pentagon, Defense Secretary Robert McNamara became irate and ordered the jets to return. "Tell the Sixth Fleet to get those aircraft back immediately," he barked. McNamara's injunction was reiterated in saltier terms by Admiral David L. McDonald, the chief of Naval Operations: "You get those fucking airplanes back on deck, and you get them back down." The planes turned around. And the attack on the Liberty continued.

http://www.counterpunch.org/stclair1126.html




Counterpunch? :rolleyes:

Facts that matter is, Israel did pay compensation to the victims, their families and to the US govt. for damages to the USS Liberty.

Fact. (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=israel+paid+compensation+to+uss+liberty+victims+ and+families&aq=f&oq=&aqi=)

Teetop
06-17-2009, 05:27 PM
U.S. Agency Confirms Sinking of USS Liberty
Was Accident
(http://www.internationalwallofprayer.org/A-201-US-Agency-Confirms-Sinking-of-USS-Liberty-was-Accident.html)

by Nathan Guttman, Haaretz Correspondent, July 09, 2003
WASHINGTON -- New documents released this week by America's National Security Agency support Israel's version of a
long-festering controversy between the two countries. Israel's sinking of an American spy ship, the USS Liberty, off the coast
of Gaza during the 1967 Six-Day War.

Israel has always said it had no idea the ship was American, but conspiracy theorists and anti-Israel propagandists still claim
Israel sank the ship in the full knowledge that it was American.

The documents, originally defined as top secret, were made public by Florida Judge Jay Cristol, who has been investigating
the Liberty incident for years and published a book on the subject last year. On Monday, the NSA gave him a transcript of
conversations held by two Israeli Air Force helicopter pilots who were hovering over the Liberty as it was sinking, and these
tapes confirm Israel's claim that the sinking of the ship, which killed 34 American servicemen and wounded 171, was a tragic
error.

After the Liberty was bombed by both the Israel Air Force and the Israel Navy, the two helicopter pilots were summoned
from their base to assess the damage and evaluate the possibility of recuing the surviving crew members. An American spy
plane, which had been sent to the area as soon as the NSA learned of the attack, recorded their conversations, which took place
between 2:30 and 3:37 P.M. on June 8, the third day of the war.

The spy plane also recorded the orders radioed to the pilots by their supervisor at Hatzor Base, which instructed them to
search for Egyptian survivors from the "Egyptian warship" that had just been bombed - thus supporting Israel's claim that it
had believed the ship was Egyptian when it ordered it attacked. "Pay attention. The ship is now identified as Egyptian," the
pilots were told.

Nine minutes later, Hatzor informed the pilots that it was not an Egyptian warship, but an Egyptian cargo ship. Only at
3:07 were the pilots first informed that the ship might not have been Egyptian at all: Hatzor told them that if they found
Arabic-speaking survivors, they should be taken to El-Arish, but if they found English-speaking survivors, they should be
taken to Lod. "Clarify by the first man that you bring up, what nationality he is, and report to me immediately," the
supervisor instructed, according to the transcript. "It's important to know."

Then, at 3:12, one of the pilots informed Hatzor that he saw an American flag flying over the wounded ship. He was asked
to investigate and determine whether it was really an American ship.

This is not the first time such transcripts have been made public: Israel gave its own recordings of the pilots' conversations to
the British television station Thames in 1987. But conspiracy theorists charged that Israel had doctored the tapes before
handing them over to the station in order to hide the fact that it sank the Liberty intentionally. No such imputation can be
made about these new transcripts, as they were never in Israeli hands.

Israel has always said it attacked the Liberty, which America sent to the region to gather intelligence on the progress of the
war, because it believed it was an Egyptian supply ship ferrying supplies to the Egyptian troops that Israel was then fighting.
When it discovered the error, it immediately informed the Americans, apologized and paid compensation to the victims'
families.

The incident was investigated by inquiry commissions in both Israel and the United States, and both concluded that it had,
indeed, been a tragic error. Nevertheless, the controversy never died. In 1979, one of the survivors, James Ennes, published
a book accusing Israel of bombing the American ship deliberately. Ennes claimed an Israeli spy plane had hovered over the
ship all morning and had surely identified it as American, since the American flag was clearly visible.

A later book, written by James Bamford, charged that Israel sank the ship in order to keep America from learning of its
plans to attack Syria, and further claimed that the NSA had tapes of conversations among Israeli pilots that not only
confirmed this, but also proved that the tapes released by Israel had been doctored.

Another claim that appears frequently on the dozens of Internet sites devoted to the affair is that Israel sank the ship to
conceal a mass murder of Egyptian soldiers on the Sinai peninsula.

In its letter to Cristol, the NSA stressed that, contrary to the claims that often appear in such books and Web sites - that the
agency has tapes from both the Liberty and from a nearby American submarine that confirms Israel's guilt - the only tapes
that exist were those made by the spy plane and given to Cristol this week.

"Its the last piece of intelligence that remained classified, and every rational person that will read it will understand that there
is no truth in these conspiracy theories against Israel," Cristol said Tuesday. But he added: Those who hate Israel, who hate
Jews, and those who believe in conspiracy will not be convinced by anything."

Cristol, a former U.S. navy pilot and legal officer, began investigating the Liberty incident 14 years ago. Since publishing his
book, which vindicates Israel, he has received threats and been accused of being an Israeli agent. "I take this lightly, but I am
saddened to learn that there is this kind of hate toward Israel," he said.

:rolleyes:

Keep on looking up that dead horse's ass, people....

It was a tragic error in a war setting. Sad? Of course, it happens in war, all the time.

Teetop
06-17-2009, 05:38 PM
Unreal that you could get past this! -

That pesky little evidence thingy that gets overlooked.

:rolleyes:

Pesky is right, look at #42, page 5.

:rolleyes:

megimoo
06-17-2009, 05:57 PM
He has advocated wiping Israel off the face of the earth and also used the term filthy Jews. Believe what you want.

I am all for an investigation, an apology and compensation; I just don't hate Jews like Gator.

If I had my way, I would try McNamara for derelict of duty. That SOB cost the US tens of thousands of lives.Desperate people do desperate things to survive and Israel is no exception .Of all of the people who hate Israel and the Jews the Arab Muslims are the most viscous and dedicated.If Israel ever loses a major war to the Arabs they will finish what Hitler had only started !

gator
06-17-2009, 06:10 PM
U.S. Agency Confirms Sinking of USS Liberty
Was Accident
(http://www.internationalwallofprayer.org/A-201-US-Agency-Confirms-Sinking-of-USS-Liberty-was-Accident.html)

by Nathan Guttman, Haaretz Correspondent, July 09, 2003 BS, BS etc


You realize that Haaretz is a goddamn Israeli daily newspaper, don't you? I think the last people you want to cite as authority on the Liberty incident are the Israelis, don't you think? There was no "confirmation that the attack was an accident".

A couple of years ago NSA released several documents on the incident but that was in 2007. They were the flash messages sent out from the Liberty to DIRSNA that day. By the way I would have seen all those messages working in the NSA Operations Center that day, although I didn't specifically remember them.

Guttam was just giving a rehash of Jay Cristol bullshit story which has been debunked many times over. I presented detailed information on Cristol debunking on another thread and have no wish to rehash it in this thread.

Also, in 2003 Adm Tomas Moorer published his Independent Commission Report, which I cited earlier in this thread. In the report Moorer says that the Israelis did it on purpose.

Now you can believe Nathan Guttman of Haaretz if you want or you can believe a former Chairman of the Joint Chief of Staff. The report was also signed by an assistant Commandant of the Marines and a Medal of Honor Awardee.

If you have loyalty to America I know you will chose to believe. You have loyalty to Israel I also know who you will choose to believe.

Teetop
06-17-2009, 06:21 PM
You realize that Haaretz is a goddamn Israeli daily newspaper, don't you? I think the last people you want to cite as authority on the Liberty incident are the Israelis, don't you think? There was no "confirmation that the attack was an accident".

A couple of years ago NSA released several documents on the incident but that was in 2007. They were the flash messages sent out from the Liberty to DIRSNA that day. By the way I would have seen all those messages working in the NSA Operations Center that day, although I didn't specifically remember them.

Guttam was just giving a rehash of Jay Cristol bullshit story which has been debunked many times over. I presented detailed information on Cristol debunking on another thread and have no wish to rehash it in this thread.

Also, in 2003 Adm Tomas Moorer published his Independent Commission Report, which I cited earlier in this thread. In the report Moorer says that the Israelis did it on purpose.

Now you can believe Nathan Guttman of Haaretz if you want or you can believe a former Chairman of the Joint Chief of Staff. The report was also signed by an assistant Commandant of the Marines and a Medal of Honor Awardee.

If you have loyalty to America I know you will chose to believe. You have loyalty to Israel I also know who you will choose to believe.

If it's debunked, prove it. Otherwise STFU.

Lars1701a
06-17-2009, 06:24 PM
You realize that Haaretz is a goddamn Israeli daily newspaper, don't you? I think the last people you want to cite as authority on the Liberty incident are the Israelis, don't you think? There was no "confirmation that the attack was an accident".

A couple of years ago NSA released several documents on the incident but that was in 2007. They were the flash messages sent out from the Liberty to DIRSNA that day. By the way I would have seen all those messages working in the NSA Operations Center that day, although I didn't specifically remember them.

Guttam was just giving a rehash of Jay Cristol bullshit story which has been debunked many times over. I presented detailed information on Cristol debunking on another thread and have no wish to rehash it in this thread.

Also, in 2003 Adm Tomas Moorer published his Independent Commission Report, which I cited earlier in this thread. In the report Moorer says that the Israelis did it on purpose.

Now you can believe Nathan Guttman of Haaretz if you want or you can believe a former Chairman of the Joint Chief of Staff. The report was also signed by an assistant Commandant of the Marines and a Medal of Honor Awardee.

If you have loyalty to America I know you will chose to believe. You have loyalty to Israel I also know who you will choose to believe.

Cant you feel the hatred dripping out of this post?

patriot45
06-17-2009, 06:38 PM
If it's debunked, prove it. Otherwise STFU.

You calling this guy and the others that were there liars!?! (http://www.gtr5.com/Witnesses/boston.pdf)


Start reading the articles from the sailors and the investigators side of this.

Phillygirl
06-17-2009, 06:40 PM
Cant you feel the hatred dripping out of this post?

No.

gator
06-17-2009, 07:27 PM
If it's debunked, prove it. Otherwise STFU.

I have already debunked Cristol. In fact I spent quite a bit of time doing it. Look it up in the archives.

Just because you are too goddamn lazy to go back and do a little reading is no reason for me to waste my time presenting the facts to someone that quotes Nathan Guttman of Haaretz an some authority on the USS Liberty incident.

Just because you go to Google and post the first reference you find doesn't mean you are worthy of my time.

I didn't see you "shutting the fuck up" after being unable to disprove the Moorer Independent Commission Report that I posted earlier in this thread.

The reports cited by Cristol and reported by your buddy Guttman have been researched by people and they come to a completely different conclusion. For instance, Cristol used Congressional budget reports as positive proof that the Liberty was not attacked on purpose although the budget reports made no real reference to the incident. The NSA information as quoted in the Guttman article did nothing to substantiate the claims.

When you look in the archives you will see that I listed all 18 of the reports cited by Cristol and referenced by your buddy Guttman. The fallacies in each report were listed. People have done a lot of research on this and I posted the reference and the researchers. They come to different conclusion than a staff writer of an Israeli daily newspaper. You don’t think there is a possibility he was biased, do you?

I have already debunked this crap in great detail with Odysseys and other Isreali loving dickheads on CU. I am not going to spend another 500 post doing it with every Tom, Dick and David that shows up on CU.

If you want to believe Guttman then go right ahead. He cited Cristol and Cristol is a bankruptcy judge in Miami that has a proven record of lying about his service record. He claimed to be a Korean combat pilot but yet never served one day in combat.

gator
06-17-2009, 07:44 PM
I am 99% sure you stated that.

I am 100% sure I didn't say it.

The archives on CU go back quite aways, including several major posts on Israel.

To put your money where your mouth is all you have to do is show the discussion. It is very simple. Otherwise you are doing nothing more than the Odysseys hate thing of just making shit up because somebody doesn’t accept Israel as the Lord and Master of the US.

What are you going to say next? Maybe that you are 99% sure that I am really the one that did the shooting in the Holocaust Museum? I think you have already done that, haven’t you?

Maybe you are 99% sure I am a card carrying member of the Nazi Party?

How about you are 99% sure I am a member of Stormfront?

What will it be?

gator
06-17-2009, 08:33 PM
, I am 100% sure that as an administrator, you would have banned someone if they had disparaged Odysseus patrotism like you have. I thought bashing soldiers was off limits. Don't tell me you did not call him a SOB also.

When Odysseys first started posting on CU I didn’t have a problem with him. I thought he was a little bit on the arrogant side but so are many of the other people on CU, myself included.

I didn’t really discover what a dickhead he was until we started discussing Israel.

Now I have discussed this subject many times on CU and genuinely respect most of the people that I have debated with over the years. I don’t take the subject as near as seriously as most people think I do.

Odysseys was different. He proved to me that he was dishonest.

The first indication I got of his dishonesty came when I challenged him on why he supported a corrupt and filthy government like Israel. A government that had attacked and spied on America. A government that has brutalized the Palestinian people for 60 years. After several attempts I finally exposed the fact that his unreasonable position was based on the fact that he was Jewish.

I offered then to give him a pass because I understand why Jewish Americans would put Israel’s interest ahead of America’s interest. I said that if I was in his position I would do the same thing. I said that I put loyalty to Christ ahead of my loyalty to America. I understand that reason. That is the one reason that I respect.

However, he really pissed me off by lying to me and claiming that was not his reason for supporting Israel. It was really pathetic to hear him make those claims. Judas would have been proud. All he had to do was be honest about it and I never would have been on his case.

The second thing he did was resort to the anti Semitic BS when I kicked his ass. Whenever he was in trouble he resorted to calling me a Nazi and saying that I hated Jews and anything that would take the light off the discussion.

That is a very dishonest thing to do. It shows what a real lowlife he is.

It became clear to me after awhile that his loyalty was to Israel and not America. He will do anything or say anything to protect Israel including being dishonest.

I don’t have any respect for him and never will. He is pathetic as it comes and him being in the Army had nothing to do with it.

Teetop
06-17-2009, 08:45 PM
You calling this guy and the others that were there liars!?! (http://www.gtr5.com/Witnesses/boston.pdf)


Start reading the articles from the sailors and the investigators side of this.

Start reading what the NSA had on tape. THAT tells the whole story. Not, some biased person with a pre-conceived notion beforehand. The NSA recordings tell the whole truth.

I'm not calling anyone a liar...


Are you calling the NSA a liar???

Thought not.

Bubba Dawg
06-17-2009, 08:48 PM
I've never seen the threads or quotes people are discussing here that indicate Gator has made anti-Semitic remarks. Until I see them I will not believe them. If I do see them, then I will. I have not read any such remarks by Gator so I'll go with what is my experience and what is demonstrable.

I am very troubled by the attack on the Liberty and the Israeli explanation as to what happened. I do not believe the Israeli response and think it was inadequate. I am more inclined to believe the sailors on the Liberty than I am to believe politicians on the Israeli or the US side.

The sailors on the Liberty saw what they saw and it was first hand.

And as far as it being many years ago and us being willing to forgive the Israelis I have two things to say:

1. Israelis have and will continue to pursue Nazi war criminals until they are all long dead. They don't make much of a case for forgive and forget.

2. The first step in forgiveness, if I remember correctly, is called confession. Until they come clean 'forgiveness' is premature.

I support Israel as an ally in the middle east. That does not mean that I necessarily support everything Israel does.

Teetop
06-17-2009, 08:48 PM
I have already debunked Cristol. In fact I spent quite a bit of time doing it. Look it up in the archives.

Just because you are too goddamn lazy to go back and do a little reading is no reason for me to waste my time presenting the facts to someone that quotes Nathan Guttman of Haaretz an some authority on the USS Liberty incident.

Just because you go to Google and post the first reference you find doesn't mean you are worthy of my time.

I didn't see you "shutting the fuck up" after being unable to disprove the Moorer Independent Commission Report that I posted earlier in this thread.

The reports cited by Cristol and reported by your buddy Guttman have been researched by people and they come to a completely different conclusion. For instance, Cristol used Congressional budget reports as positive proof that the Liberty was not attacked on purpose although the budget reports made no real reference to the incident. The NSA information as quoted in the Guttman article did nothing to substantiate the claims.

When you look in the archives you will see that I listed all 18 of the reports cited by Cristol and referenced by your buddy Guttman. The fallacies in each report were listed. People have done a lot of research on this and I posted the reference and the researchers. They come to different conclusion than a staff writer of an Israeli daily newspaper. You don’t think there is a possibility he was biased, do you?

I have already debunked this crap in great detail with Odysseys and other Isreali loving dickheads on CU. I am not going to spend another 500 post doing it with every Tom, Dick and David that shows up on CU.

If you want to believe Guttman then go right ahead. He cited Cristol and Cristol is a bankruptcy judge in Miami that has a proven record of lying about his service record. He claimed to be a Korean combat pilot but yet never served one day in combat.

I've done this, I've done that...


Sorry, I missed that thread. I would really like to see your URL's to debunk this.

I've done this, I've done that.....

:rolleyes:

Teetop
06-17-2009, 08:51 PM
When Odysseys first started posting on CU I didn’t have a problem with him. I thought he was a little bit on the arrogant side but so are many of the other people on CU, myself included.

I didn’t really discover what a dickhead he was until we started discussing Israel.

Now I have discussed this subject many times on CU and genuinely respect most of the people that I have debated with over the years. I don’t take the subject as near as seriously as most people think I do.

Odysseys was different. He proved to me that he was dishonest.

The first indication I got of his dishonesty came when I challenged him on why he supported a corrupt and filthy government like Israel. A government that had attacked and spied on America. A government that has brutalized the Palestinian people for 60 years. After several attempts I finally exposed the fact that his unreasonable position was based on the fact that he was Jewish.

I offered then to give him a pass because I understand why Jewish Americans would put Israel’s interest ahead of America’s interest. I said that if I was in his position I would do the same thing. I said that I put loyalty to Christ ahead of my loyalty to America. I understand that reason. That is the one reason that I respect.

However, he really pissed me off by lying to me and claiming that was not his reason for supporting Israel. It was really pathetic to hear him make those claims. Judas would have been proud. All he had to do was be honest about it and I never would have been on his case.

The second thing he did was resort to the anti Semitic BS when I kicked his ass. Whenever he was in trouble he resorted to calling me a Nazi and saying that I hated Jews and anything that would take the light off the discussion.

That is a very dishonest thing to do. It shows what a real lowlife he is.

It became clear to me after awhile that his loyalty was to Israel and not America. He will do anything or say anything to protect Israel including being dishonest.

I don’t have any respect for him and never will. He is pathetic as it comes and him being in the Army had nothing to do with it.

What eff'in colour is the sky, in your world?


Seriously!

Odysseus
06-17-2009, 09:10 PM
Can you back that up or are you like Odysseus and make shit like that up?
Now tell me where I call for the destruction of Israel..
I make nothing up, but then, anything that you can't refute is immediately referred to as a lie. Now, perhaps you don't want to see Israel destroyed, but you did say, in the thread about your presidential platform, that you'd initiate an attack See below:

Good. Remember that I will hold Israel responsible for the spying and attack on America, which will involve military retaliation on our part. Israel will not get one more dime or one more spare part or anything else from us. I will not be paying off Israel's enemies to leave it alone. I will join the rest of the world in declaring it a terrorist state freezing their assets in the US and not allowing Israelis to come into the country.

I suspect when I do all that there will be some serious payback from all these people that the Israelis have been treating like shit for all these years. Maybe you will be forced to join the IDF to defend the homeland. Have fun.


Also show me where I have ever used the term "filthy Jews".

You walk a fine line by claiming that you hate Israel but not Jews, but the fact is that you often blur the distinction. Here is a string of quotes in which you impugn the loyalty of American Jews:


You are a worthless piece of shit because you believe a foreign country that attacked America over the word of our own military including two Medal of Honor awardees and a past Chairman of the Joint Chief of Staff. You do it because you are Jewish and you support the Jewish state rather than your own contry.


As far as your stupid assertion that the extended combined arms attack of the well identified USS Liberty was a “friendly fire” incident in spite of all the evidence that I have posted to the contrary just shows that you have no intention of holding your Israelis buddies accountable. You ignore all the evidence because you do not want to hold the Israelis accountable for anything. You just want them to live well and you don’t care how much American money it cost or how many American lives. You think that way because you are Jewish and the preservation of the Jewish State is more important to you than your own country.


He liked his tour of duty in Iraq because that made the Middle East safer for his beloved Israel.
Since he is Jewish then I understand that mindset.


You have no intentions of admitting that being a Jew causes you to believe the spin and misinformation of the Israeli government over the interest of America do you? In your distorted mind the security of Israel always becomes the top priority regardless of the harm done to America, isn’t it? You are incapable of thinking otherwise, aren't you?


At least Odysseus has a reason. Being Jewish his loyalties lie with the Jewish State instead of America and I can actually understand that mindset. What I can’t understand is the mindset of the NeoCons that will sell out their country in order to gain favor with the pro Israel lobby. I guess the big bucks of the pro Israel lobby talks very loud.

So, maybe in your mind that fine line between saying "Filthy Israelis" and "Filthy Jews" doesn't make you an antisemite, but when you repeatedly refer to Israel as the "Jewish state" in the same posts that you call Israel and its American Jewish supporters filthy for supporting it, it's pretty obvious what your opinion of Jews is.

BTW, I've got 20:12 hrs, CST. I expect a string of profanity in 10, 9, 8, 7,...

Teetop
06-17-2009, 09:27 PM
BTW, I've got 20:12 hrs, CST. I expect a string of bullshit in 10, 9, 8, 7,...

fixed.....

gator
06-17-2009, 09:34 PM
So, maybe in your mind that fine line between saying "Filthy Israelis" and "Filthy Jews" doesn't make you an antisemite, but when you repeatedly refer to Israel as the "Jewish state" in the same posts that you call Israel and its American Jewish supporters filthy for supporting it, it's pretty obvious what your opinion of Jews is.



Funny thing is that I don’t see the phrase “filthy Jew” or seeing any declaration that I wanted to see Israel destroyed in any of your posts.

Even now you are pulling this anti Semitic bullshit. You are a piece of shit for doing it.

Since you were selective in your posting do you also want to post the statements I made about the dumbass Fundamental Christians supporting Israel because they were afraid they weren't going to Heaven?

How about the stupid NeoCons that think the protection of Israel is absolutely the most important part of our foreign policy?

How about the filthy politicans that suck at the tit of the Pro Israel lobby?

I didn’t mention it above but the thing that showed me that you were a first rate dickhead was your attack on the military people that have attempted to expose the treachery of the Israelis. You were very loathsome and called them everything from being the same as believing in Evil sightings to stating that Admiral Thomas Moorer should “grow up”. You have disgraced the crewmembers of the Liberty and the brave men that attempted to shed light on the incident, often at peril to their careers. You even called Ward Boston a liar.

You will do anything to protect Israel.

You will give them a pass on attacking your birth country.

You will give them a pass on spying on your birth country.

You will give them a pass on brutalizing the Palestinian people.

You will lie about your reasons for protecting them.

You will attack military people for exposing the treachery of Israel.

You will make anti Semitic accusations about anybody that doesn’t want to kiss the ass of your Israeli friends.

You are not worthy of any respect by any decent person and you sure as hell are a disgrace to the uniform you claim to wear.

Teetop
06-17-2009, 10:00 PM
I've done this, I've done that...


Sorry, I missed that thread. I would really like to see your URL's to debunk this.

I've done this, I've done that.....

:rolleyes:

Still waiting....


I suppose I will be waiting a very long time.

thinker
06-17-2009, 10:23 PM
Since one side is hell bent on wiping the other off the face of the globe, you will not see peace in the M.E. There is just too much hatred there. Looks like Obama is going to follow in Carter's footsteps and lick the boots of our enemy.

What other steps could be taken if Israel apologizes and pays restitution. We both know that it will not happen so I do not know what good it does to keep beating a dead horse. Some things you can not change as much as you would like them to. It is called reality.

I don't even want them to necessarily pay restitution - it's so far in the past that it would be so counterproductive as to be pointless. The main point of acknowledgement and apologies made would be to 1. deradicalize the Israeli leadership, which has become more and more xenophobic since the incidents surrounding the Six Day War. 2. It would open up discussion in the US about what and how our policy should be towards Israel; right now, it's impossible to discuss without being painted as an anti-Semite for advocating any changes to the policy that Israel or its' benefactors see as reducing Israel's current position.

Samu, the Liberty, Munich reprisals, the fighting against Hezbollah last year in Lebanon, the attack on the Syrian nuclear facility....some of these things are justified, some are not. All of them serve to paint Israel as the agressor and to engage Israel in a psychological rut that violence is always the answer; the problem is, as more and more Arab states achieve better technological parity, the more against the wall Israel becomes. Eventually, they *will* bite off more than they can chew. One thing I agree with gator on, I don't want to see American men and women dead and dying because the political leadership in Israel knew that whatever they did, they had a blank check from the US Government.

Odysseus
06-17-2009, 10:24 PM
Funny thing is that I don’t see the phrase “filthy Jew” or seeing any declaration that I wanted to see Israel destroyed in any of your posts.

Even now you are pulling this anti Semitic bullshit. You are a piece of shit for doing it.

Since you were selective in your posting do you also want to post the statements I made about the dumbass Fundamental Christians supporting Israel because they were afraid they weren't going to Heaven?

How about the stupid NeoCons that think the protection of Israel is absolutely the most important part of our foreign policy?

How about the filthy politicans that suck at the tit of the Pro Israel lobby?

I didn’t mention it above but the thing that showed me that you were a first rate dickhead was your attack on the military people that have attempted to expose the treachery of the Israelis. You were very loathsome and called them everything from being the same as believing in Evil sightings to stating that Admiral Thomas Moorer should “grow up”. You have disgraced the crewmembers of the Liberty and the brave men that attempted to shed light on the incident, often at peril to their careers. You even called Ward Boston a liar.

You will do anything to protect Israel.

You will give them a pass on attacking your birth country.

You will give them a pass on spying on your birth country.

You will give them a pass on brutalizing the Palestinian people.

You will lie about your reasons for protecting them.

You will attack military people for exposing the treachery of Israel.

You will make anti Semitic accusations about anybody that doesn’t want to kiss the ass of your Israeli friends.

You are not worthy of any respect by any decent person and you sure as hell are a disgrace to the uniform you claim to wear.

Hmmmm.... That took a bit longer than I expected. Must be a Bund rally.

As I pointed out, you repeatedly called Israel the "Jewish State" and it's inhabitants "Filthy Israelis." and If A=B, and B=C, A=C. Since it's unlikely that you're referring to the Arab or Christian inhabitants of Israel as "filthy Israelis," then just who do you mean? The logic is inescapable. To you, the "Jewish State" is inhabited by "Filthy Israelis" who are not Arabs or Christians. That leaves Jews. Hence, Filthy Israelis=Filthy Jews. QED.

As for the rest, claiming that I'm disloyal to America doesn't make it so. Claiming that Israel brutalizes Palestinians doesn't make it so. Israel didn't attack my birth country. As I've repeatedly proven, it was a friendly fire incident. I never lied about being a Jew. I have never attacked the crew of the Liberty, nor have I attacked Admiral Moorer. I have, however, pointed out errors in his report which he could not possibly been aware of at the time, but which disproved his beliefs. Your response to this was a string of invective that settled nothing except our collective opinion about your mental state.

Aside from constantly reprinting the Moorer Report, and denouncing anyone who questions it as a heretic, a Jew, a NeoCon or a disloyal American, you've provided no information and insulted anyone who took the time to provide evidence to the contrary, even going so far as to make threats against me. I'm not the one who is a disgrace to my uniform. I wear mine proudly. You, however, embarrass all of us who serve our country and support it.

thinker
06-17-2009, 10:27 PM
No, he didn't state it was according to him, but rather that is his understanding of Christianity's take on it. Again, he may be mistaken in terms of interpreting a global Christian position on this. Being Catholic, I think my rules indicate the Baptists aren't getting in either.


Let's hope not. My MIL is a hardcore SB.


....kidding! :D (I think) :confused:

lacarnut
06-17-2009, 10:28 PM
You are not worthy of any respect by any decent person and you sure as hell are a disgrace to the uniform you claim to wear.

I am not Jewish and do believe we should cut back on our aid and military assistance across the globe. However, I am glad that I do not have the hate in me that you do. You need to get professional help. Like I said, your remarks regarding Odysseus are disgusting and un-American.

Sonnabend
06-18-2009, 04:44 AM
You will do anything to protect Israel.No, he is quietly and calmly answering your continued abusive behaviour


You will give them a pass on attacking your birth country.Israel has never attacked the US.


You will give them a pass on spying on your birth country.Says a past member of the NSA, a SPY organisation that SPIES on the rest of the world.

CIA, NSA, DNI,..,.the list is quite long.

The US engages in espionage on both its enemies and its allies, and in past times has seen fit to intervene both militarily and covertly in the affairs of other nations when it is deemed in the best interest of the US..and at times, it can be said that their attitude was the hell with what the people want.

South America ring a bell? Was or was not the Shah US backed?

So before you start screaming at Israel, maybe you might want to tell me just why it is that the CIA has agents in this country? NZ? The Pacific? Europe?

The US routinely and regularly intercepts communications, covertly obtains sensitive informaition, uses informants both inside and outside friendly governments..and please dont tell me that an "attache to the embassy" is anything else than a cover for an intelligence operative?

Narrungar and Pine Gap are US intel operations..so do us all a favour and can it? Israel is doing what is in its own interests.

NSA is a spy agency. The Liberty was a spy ship. For good or ill they got shot at..I also see you have not told me just what intel they were gathering and to whom they were sending it?


You will give them a pass on brutalizing the Palestinian people.
There is no Palestine.It's a myth, a lie. They are displaced Arabs no one wants...for good reason.


You will lie about your reasons for protecting them.Odysseus has never been anything else than truthful. Incidentally, may I remind you that he OUTRANKS you, and that you are addressing a SUPERIOR officer? Unless you left the service as either a LT or bird colonel, he is properly addressed as Major, Odysseus or SIR.


You will attack military people for exposing the treachery of Israel.So tell me Gator, what was a US spy ship doing there in the first place?


You will make anti Semitic accusations about anybody that doesn’t want to kiss the ass of your Israeli friends.If the shoe fits....


You are not worthy of any respect by any decent person and you sure as hell are a disgrace to the uniform you claim to wear.And you are perilously close to crossing the line. You will ameliorate your tone or maybe it's time I suggested to SR that you need a time out? I , for one, am sick of your abusive and insulting tone and the vicious way you attack people.

Forgive me, Major, for stepping in, but what I have seen here was more than enough reason

- Sonnabend.

gator
06-18-2009, 07:25 AM
I am not Jewish and do believe we should cut back on our aid and military assistance across the globe. However, I am glad that I do not have the hate in me that you do. You need to get professional help. Like I said, your remarks regarding Odysseus are disgusting and un-American.

You confuse my moral clarity in understanding that those Americans that support Israel are dickheads with hate.

I have seen you post some pretty vile and vitriolic things about the people that disagree with you on this subject don't give me your bullshit rhetoric about someone needing "professional help" when they disagree with you. I think you are pretty crazy yourself and you post many unreasonable and hateful things on the subject. I see that every time the subject comes up you are Johnny on the spot to start attacking those people that disagree with you so don’t pretend that you are different.

I have energy on this subject for two reasons that I have stated many times before. The first is the personal connection when the goddamn Israelis killed people doing the same job as I did in the military. That is a loyalty factor that you probably wouldn’t understand. You don’t give a shit about the crewmembers of the Liberty but to me they were brave men doing their duty that were slaughtered by a terrorist government. I want justice for them and that is not an unreasonable position. It is certainly a pro American and pro military position.

The second reason is that I strongly think that supporting Israel has been an economic and moral disaster for my country. It is absolutely the worst foreign policy decision ever made by this country. We have suffered greatly for that 40 years of support and I don’t like it and I am not afraid to give my views on the subject. To me America would be much better off looking after her own interest instead of the interest of some shitbag Middle East country, don’t you think?

If you don’t like what I say all you have to do put me on ignore. Except for the last couple of weeks I haven’t even been posting much on CU. This is only an Internet Discussion forum. Don’t get upset because everybody doesn’t believe the same bullshit that you do.

gator
06-18-2009, 07:39 AM
I've done this, I've done that...


Sorry, I missed that thread. I would really like to see your URL's to debunk this.

I've done this, I've done that.....

:rolleyes:

Here is an example of the information that I posted before. I went ahead and posted it because I wanted everyone to see that you don't know what the fuck you are talking about.

To make sure you know what you are reading these are the Cristol sources cited by your buddy Guttman from Haaretz as being proof that the Isrealis did not attack the Liberty on purpose. Your good friend Guttman published his little article in Haaretz when Cristol's book came out.

Cristol Claim of 13 Investigations Into Israel’s Attack on USS Liberty a Travesty

By Terence O’Keefe

When A. Jay Cristol’s The Liberty Incident was released a year ago, it was uncritically hailed as the last word in the 36-year controversy surrounding Israel’s 1967 attack on the USS Liberty that took 34 American lives and wounded 172. The book was packed with tedious minutiae arguing the case. Indeed, if its author is to be believed, Liberty survivors have engaged in a 36-year slander against the state of Israel—which was guilty, at worst, of a grievous mistake in the heat of war.

“Thirteen investigations have all exonerated Israel,” is Cristol’s mantra.

Like many others, I found the author’s case initially persuasive. Here, after all, is a federal judge, a Navy captain, author, scholar, former Navy lawyer and apparently a combat fighter pilot who claims to have studied this matter for 15 years, with an open mind, and who finally was forced to conclude that it was a tragic accident. Those who say otherwise, I agreed, must be either mistaken or malicious.

But the survivors are persuasive, too—and Cristol dismisses their eyewitness accounts out-of-hand. Eyewitnesses, he claims, are not reliable, as they are too close to the event to be believed. Better to rely upon dispassionate historians such as himself who examine the evidence later, with a cooler and more objective vision.

It was with that view that I decided to examine both the Cristol and the Liberty positions in an effort to find where the truth lies. For more than a year I queried survivors and Mr. Cristol himself, seeking facts, evidence and the truth.

To most questions, Cristol points to his account of 13 exonerating investigations, so I focused closely on those. Here is the result:


Cristol’s 13 Investigations

1. The U.S. Navy Court of Inquiry: The senior legal adviser to the Court of Inquiry reflected that, in his entire career, he has never seen court of inquiry appointing letters with such limited authority, or an investigation made in such haste. The court’s hearings began before the Liberty even arrived in Malta, and the report was completed just 10 days after the attack. The court commented on this haste in the official record: “The Court of Inquiry experienced no unusual difficulties incident to conducting the subject proceedings except for the necessity of investigating such a major naval disaster of international significance in an extremely abbreviated time frame.”

Due in part to the required haste and the limitations imposed on the scope of the court’s inquiries (“It was not the responsibility of the court to rule on the culpability of the attackers, and no evidence was heard from the attacking nation”), the court concluded that “available evidence combines to indicate...[that the attack was] a case of mistaken identity.”

How, one might ask, could one inquire into all of the circumstances without hearing from the attacking nation? In fact, the court did neither. According to Captain Ward Boston, chief legal counsel to the Court of Inquiry, the court found that the attack was deliberate, but reported falsely that it was not because they were directed by the president of the United States and the secretary of defense to report falsely. So the findings are fraudulent. Yet these fraudulent findings were the basis for several other reports that followed.

2. Israeli government investigations: The Ram Ron and Yerushalmi reports of 1967 were not investigations. Both were elements of an Israeli process to determine whether anyone in Israel should be tried for a crime. That the attack itself was an accident was a given. Both hearings officers determined that no one in Israel did anything wrong, and that the USS Liberty was partly responsible, for a number of contrived reasons, such as “failure to fly a flag” and “trying to hide”—which the Navy Court of Inquiry found to be untrue.

3. The Joint Chiefs of Staff Report of June 1967: This was an inquiry into the mishandling of several messages intended for the ship. It was not an investigation into the attack. It did not exonerate Israel, because it did not in any way consider the question of culpability.

4. CIA report of June 13, 1967: This interim report, completed five days after the attack, reported “our best judgment [is] that the attack...was a mistake.” No investigation was conducted, and no first-hand evidence was collected. Then-CIA Director Richard Helms concluded and later reported in his autobiography that the attack was planned and deliberate—a fact ignored by Mr. Cristol.

5. Clark Clifford report of July 18, 1967: Clark Clifford was directed by Lyndon Johnson to review the Court of Inquiry report and the interim CIA report and “not to make an independent inquiry.” His was merely a summary of other fallacious reports, not an “investigation” as alleged by Mr. Cristol. The report reached no conclusions and did not exonerate Israel, as Mr. Cristol also claimed. On the contrary, Clifford wrote later that he regarded the attack as deliberate—a fact ignored by Mr. Cristol.

6. and 7. Two Senate Investigations: The Committee on Foreign Relations meeting of 1967 and Senate Armed Services Committee meeting of 1968 were hearings on unrelated matters which clearly skeptical members used to castigate representatives of the administration under oath before them. Typical questions were, “Why can’t we get the truth about this?” They were not “investigations” at all, but budget hearings, and reported no conclusions concerning the attack. They did not exonerate Israel, as claimed by Mr. Cristol.

8. House Appropriations Committee meeting of April and May 1968: This was a budget committee meeting which explored the issue of lost messages intended for the ship. It was not an investigation and reported no conclusions concerning the attack, as alleged by Mr. Cristol.

9. House Armed Services Committee Review of Communications, May 1971: Liberty communications were discussed along with other communications failures. The committee reported no conclusions concerning the attack, as alleged by Mr. Cristol.

10. Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, 1979/1981: Mr. Cristol claims that the committee investigated the attack and exonerated Israel, yet he has been unable to provide minutes, a report or other evidence of such an investigation. Rules of the select committee require that any committee investigation be followed by a report. There is no report of such an investigation; ergo, there was no such investigation.

11. National Security Agency Report, 1981: Upon the publication in 1980 of Assault on the Liberty by James Ennes, the National Security Agency completed a detailed account of the attack. The report drew no conclusions, although its authors did note that the deputy director dismissed the Israeli excuse (the Yerushalmi report) as “a nice whitewash.” The report did not exonerate Israel, as claimed by Mr. Cristol.

12. State of Israel–Israel Defense Force History Department report of June 1982: This Israeli government report was a reaction to a published report by Sen. Adlai Stevenson III that he believed the attack to be deliberate and hoped to provide a forum for survivors to tell their story. It was primarily a summary of the Ram Ron and Yerushalmi reports. The Stevenson forum, which was the impetus for the report, was never held. The report supports the official Israeli position that the attack was a tragic accident.

13. House Armed Services Committee investigation of 1991/1992: Though cited by Mr. Cristol as an investigation which exonerates Israel, the U.S. government reports no record of such an investigation. Cristol claims that the investigation resulted from a letter to Rep. Nicholas Mavroules from Joe Meadors, then-president of the USS Liberty Veterans Association, seeking Mavroules’ support. Instead of responding to Liberty veterans, however, Congressman Mavroules referred the matter to Mr. Cristol for advice. Survivors heard nothing further. Meadors’ letter was never answered. The U.S. government reports that there has been no such investigation.


Time for a Real Investigation

Liberty survivors have said for 36 years that theirs is the only major maritime incident not investigated by Congress. Apologist Cristol’s response is to claim that no investigation is needed because the attack has been investigated repeatedly, and that each such investigation has exonerated Israel. That claim is pure fantasy. A recent request to the Congressional Research Service for evidence of any congressional inquiry into the attack on the USS Liberty brought a report that Congress has never investigated the attack. Israeli culpability for the attack on the USS Liberty has never been investigated by any agency of the United States government. It should be.

gator
06-18-2009, 07:50 AM
Treetop

Here is another discussion on the NSA info released in 2003 that was cited by your buddy Guttman.

Now since the source is not the goddam Israelis but instead an American officer that actually was aboard ship the day it was attacked I know you may have trouble believing a different analysis.

By the way, Ennie cites the very article from your buddy Guttman that you referenced.

Washington Report on Middle East Affairs, September 2003, page 25

Special Report


National Security Agency Documents on Attack on USS Liberty Prove What?


By James M. Ennes

Liberty survivors were pleased when we learned in June that apologists for our attackers had asked the federal courts to order the release of key intercept transcripts compiled during the attack. These, we knew, would prove our case and disprove that of the apologists.

Instead of releasing transcripts of the attack itself, however, the National Security Agency (NSA) released signals intelligence transcripts collected after the attack—radio messages from helicopter pilots who came out afterward to clean up.

What a disappointment. We had hoped for some of the communications we know took place between the Israeli jet pilots and their headquarters, but those were not released.

Nevertheless, to our astonishment, the pro-Israel PR team put their own false spin on what was released. The July 9 Ha'aretz released the story with a new twist: "U.S. Agency Confirms [attack on] USS Liberty Was An Accident." Despite the fact that nothing in the documents released suggests that it was an accident, this false account was picked up by media from The Boston Globe to CNN, and repeated as established fact—often with quotes from Chief Apologist A. Jay Cristol, proclaiming victory.

But the released materials reveal no such thing. The NSA intercepts show only that the helicopter pilots were confused about the ship's identity until they arrived about 45 minutes after the first shots were fired. Intercept of the attack itself—not released, but which has been seen by senior NSA sources and others—show that in fact our attackers did know they were attacking an American ship. Israel has managed once again to get wide attention for a headline that gives a totally false account of reality.

The plain truth is that, despite the phony interpretation provided by Israeli spin-masters, most people who look carefully at the circumstances of this attack agree that it was deliberate. Moreover, the top minds in the American intelligence community agree that solid evidence is overwhelming that it was deliberate!

One really must look carefully when such leading lights as Dean Rusk, Marshall Carter, Richard Helms, Lou Tordella, Tom Moorer, Rufus Taylor, Bobby Ray Inman, John Morrison, George Ball, Clark Clifford, Lucius Battle, William Odom, Merlin Staring, Dwight Porter and others—including even LBJ's own press secretary, George Christian—all say, almost with one voice, that a) it was deliberate and b) that the evidence says so. Top intelligence officers agree that the attack's deliberateness was not a debatable issue; it was unanimously agreed-upon fact. None of these men is the sort to adopt wild or irresponsible positions.

We survivors say the attack was deliberate because what we saw argues that it was: Prolonged, low-level pre-attack reconnaissance in which the reconnaissance pilots were heard telling their headquarters that we were American; an extended close air attack with large colors flying throughout; selective jamming of the very frequencies we needed to call for help; torpedo boats that examined the ship and flag from 50 feet away and continued to fire from close range for another 40 minutes; machinegunning of our life rafts in the water.


The NSA released intelligence transcripts collected after the attack.

They then lied about everything, and claimed that they recognized us as American even as the torpedoes were in the water, and never fired again. Nonsense. They falsely claim that their boats called in the air attack because they miscalculated our speed from 32 miles away—when in fact their maximum radar range was 16 miles—and that they judged our speed at 30 knots, when we were actually moving at only five knots. Nonsense. They claim we flew no flag. Nonsense. If it was a mistake, at least they could tell the truth. If they didn't know we were American, why did they jam American radio frequencies?

The evidence goes far beyond those items, however: it is virtually absolute. Recently I called Oliver Kirby, a former NSA Operations boss who was called back in 1967 to look into the circumstances of the attack. He has never before discussed this with anyone outside the confines of the NSA complex, but the first words out of his mouth were, "I can tell you for an absolute certainty that they knew they were attacking an American ship."

How did he know? He saw transcripts of Israeli communications during the attack. There was a Navy EC121 overhead (reported recently by James Bamford) and an Air Force C130 a few miles away. Both were recording communications. The Navy intake was merely recorded; the Air Force product was sent securely in real time via the nation's top secret signals intelligence communications system to Air Force intelligence centers worldwide, where it was seen by hundreds of people. Many of those people now are coming forward to describe what they saw. These are the same intercepts that were seen by Oliver Kirby and other top analysts and officials at the National Security Agency. These transcripts are the reason so many top intelligence officials are certain that this attack was no accident.

NSA now denies there were airplanes overhead during the attack or that the attack was intercepted or recorded. Those denials are contradicted by very credible people who were there, including the navigator of the EC121 who is talking to us.


Destroyed Evidence

NSA can deny that such intercepts exist because, shortly after the attack, all such evidence of a deliberate attack was ordered destroyed in order to avoid embarrassing the attackers. Fortunately for the historical record, however, a great many people saw those transcripts before they went into the burn bag, and many of those people are now speaking out.

People are just learning that the Court of Inquiry was falsified. The Court's own legal counsel, Captain Ward Boston, now says publicly in the Navy Times and elsewhere that the court actually believed that the attack was deliberate but reported otherwise, falsely, because it was so ordered by Washington.

For years, apologists for Israel have claimed that what we say cannot be true because there is no known motive for an attack on Israel's wealthy provider. Now that we have proof that is agreed upon by virtually every senior official and several analysts of the era, the naysayers say that even these cannot be believed because 36 years has blurred memories. Nonsense.

Why would Israel attack a clearly marked American ship? We may never know. Dean Rusk once said that it must have been ordered by someone fairly high up to be able to coordinate all the different forces involved, but he had no doubt that it was deliberate. Richard Helms and Admiral Moorer have supposed that it was done to delay American knowledge of the pending Golan invasion. General Morrison agrees that it could have been to ensure that the U.S. didn't learn of Israel's execution of Egyptian POWs then underway at El Arish. We may never know the real reason—but anyone who wonders about this should look carefully at the circumstances before allowing the improbability of such an attack to weigh against the very solid evidence that the attack was deliberate.

A recent article in the June 2003 issue of Naval Institute Proceedings discusses these points in some depth. It can be found online at <http://www.usni.org/proceedings/Articles03/PROwalsh06.htm>. This conservative and trusted publication, known as the voice of the U.S. Navy officer corps, does not adopt weak or frivolous positions.

James Ennes was an officer on the bridge of the ship when the attack started. Author of Assault on the Liberty, available from the AET Book Club, he is webmaster of the USS Liberty memorial web site at <www.ussliberty.com>.

Sonnabend
06-18-2009, 08:26 AM
So tell me Gator, what was a US spy ship doing there in the first place?

The NSA is a spy agency, is it not?

So what was US ship doing spying on Israelis?

gator
06-18-2009, 08:38 AM
So tell me Gator, what was a US spy ship doing there in the first place?

The NSA is a spy agency, is it not?

So what was US ship doing spying on Israelis?

American business, you wouldn't understand.

gator
06-18-2009, 09:45 AM
As for the rest, claiming that I'm disloyal to America doesn't make it so.

In my opinion it does. I based my opinion on the maniacal love you have for another country that has attacked and spied on America and the fact that you have attacked the brave American servicemen like Moorer, Boston, Ennis and other that have attempted to blow the whistle on your Israeli friends. In another thread you even called Ward Boston, a very decorated Naval officer, a liar because he said the Navy Court of inquiry was directed to give the Israelis a pass. He was a member of that board.

You should be wearing an IDF uniform instead of an American uniform.

I asked you a hypothetical question once and you ran from it like a scared little puppy.

I mentioned that I may run for President. ;) Should I win I will be the Commander in Chief of all the US Armed Forces.

One of the first things I would do is implement the recommendations of the Moorer Commission, which would include a real investigation of what happen with the Liberty.

If the investigation showed that the goddamn Israelis did it on purpose, as I am sure it would, I would consider an attack on Israel as payback.

Should I order the attack I would be sure to make sure that you would be part of the attacking force. I may give you direct orders to kill the Israelis like they killed the men on the Liberty.

The question I had to you is would do what was ordered? Would you kill the Israelis like they killed the American servicemen? Would you attack their lifeboats as the Israelis did the Americans? Would you do it and then lie about it later?

Maybe you would chickenshit out and go on sick call or something. Maybe you would retire or find some lame excuse not to do what you were ordered to do.

Because you are a proven liar I suspect that you will deny that you wouldn’t follow orders but I know from your previous posts that you would never fight against your beloved Israel. Your loyalty is to them and not to the United States of America. You have made that crystal clear.

Odysseus
06-18-2009, 09:54 AM
You confuse my moral clarity in understanding that those Americans that support Israel are dickheads with hate.
So when you call us all of those lovely names, it's not hate? What do you call that?


I have seen you post some pretty vile and vitriolic things about the people that disagree with you on this subject don't give me your bullshit rhetoric about someone needing "professional help" when they disagree with you. I think you are pretty crazy yourself and you post many unreasonable and hateful things on the subject. I see that every time the subject comes up you are Johnny on the spot to start attacking those people that disagree with you so don’t pretend that you are different.
How about a link? Something that proves that assertion? You know, like maybe a quote? For example, has he said anything as vile as these quotes?


You are no better than Obama...
You are willing to sell out America big time to provide for your sleazy special interest group; the Israelis.

You have even gone as far to demean the brave military men that sought to get justice with the Israelis. Two of them were Congressional Medal of Honor Awardees. You are a real dickhead.

You have no love for America if it comes in conflict with your pro Israel agenda. You will sell out your country in a heartbeat to make sure your special interest group lives well. At a time when we are running tremendous deficits that is killing our country you still want to make sure the filthy Israelis are armed well with American supplied weapons and get American taxpayer money. That is really pathetic.


I have energy on this subject for two reasons that I have stated many times before. The first is the personal connection when the goddamn Israelis killed people doing the same job as I did in the military. That is a loyalty factor that you probably wouldn’t understand. You don’t give a shit about the crewmembers of the Liberty but to me they were brave men doing their duty that were slaughtered by a terrorist government. I want justice for them and that is not an unreasonable position. It is certainly a pro American and pro military position.
You make it sound like you were on the deck of the Liberty with this personal connection line. How many of them did you actually know? You refer to them as your NSA brothers, but when were you with the NSA? I thought that you were just a grunt?


If you don’t like what I say all you have to do put me on ignore. Except for the last couple of weeks I haven’t even been posting much on CU. This is only an Internet Discussion forum. Don’t get upset because everybody doesn’t believe the same bullshit that you do.
This last is good advice. Why don't you follow it, too?

American business, you wouldn't understand.
Okay, then explain it to the rest of us Americans.

Lars1701a
06-18-2009, 10:05 AM
American business, you wouldn't understand.

Who were they spying on?

Phillygirl
06-18-2009, 11:02 AM
Let's hope not. My MIL is a hardcore SB.


....kidding! :D (I think) :confused:

I think the rule came about because of St. Peter's MIL (I know, I know...I'm going to hell!)

patriot45
06-18-2009, 11:13 AM
Sounds like some would be happier if the Liberty would have sunk and there had been no survivors to tell the truth.



Scott's father was awarded the Silver Star, the nation's third-highest award for heroism, for his role during and after the attack. In late 2007, the elder Scott traveled to Israel with his son for research and met with Brig. Gen. Yiftah Spector, one of the pilots who attacked the Liberty.
According to James Scott, Spector stuck out his hand and said, "I'm sorry."
"Those were the words my father and many of his shipmates had wanted to hear for decades, the words no one in the Navy, the White House, or Congress had ever publicly been willing to say," Scott wrote in the book. "My father reached out and took Spector's hand and said, 'Thank you.'"

gator
06-18-2009, 11:33 AM
Who were they spying on?

Go read the previous post in this thread with the article from Moorer. He explains his understanding of the mission of the Liberty. Google is your friend if you want to read the many theories on why the goddamn Israelis attacked the Liberty. I honestly don’t care myself. The Israelis attacked an American military vessel on purpose. The vessel was carrying out the mission of my country. Just because the Israelis didn’t like the mission is no justification for the attack in my mind. Of course the pro Israel supporters want to give the Israelis a pass on it.

Our relationship with the fucking Israelis was a lot different in June of 1967 than it is nowadays. We actually had the idea we should be even handed in the Middle East in those days. Of course LBJ changed all that when he decided not to hold the friggin Israelis accountable for the attack.

Moorer has stated that his Commission determined that LBJ based his decision not on America's interest but the influence of the filthy pro Israel lobby in America.

The fact that Captain McGonagle was not even given the Medal of Honor in the White House and that his citation says nothing about the Israelis is a good example of the LBJ wanting to kiss the ass of the Israeli lobby rather than doing right by the crewmembers of the USS Liberty. It is really pathetic.

The fact that the crewmembers that were buried in Arlington were not even given the recognition they were killed in hostile action by the Israelis is another example of the influence of the filthy pro Israel lobby in this country.

Every American should be outraged by the Israelis, the pro Israel lobby and the goddamn politicians that cater to the lobby. I guess as a country we have no morals.

Lars1701a
06-18-2009, 12:01 PM
Do you read your posts?


You use words like Filthy, dirty etc

Sounds like hatred to me or try using those same words while describing Obama or any of his supporters you might be called a racist by many on this site (hazlnutsack, thinker) etc.

Lars1701a
06-18-2009, 12:08 PM
Oh by the way Odysseus is a Officer you will address him with Sir or Major.

Odysseus
06-18-2009, 12:28 PM
In my opinion it does. I based my opinion on the maniacal love you have for another country that has attacked and spied on America and the fact that you have attacked the brave American servicemen like Moorer, Boston, Ennis and other that have attempted to blow the whistle on your Israeli friends. In another thread you even called Ward Boston, a very decorated Naval officer, a liar because he said the Navy Court of inquiry was directed to give the Israelis a pass. He was a member of that board.

You should be wearing an IDF uniform instead of an American uniform.

I asked you a hypothetical question once and you ran from it like a scared little puppy.

I mentioned that I may run for President. ;) Should I win I will be the Commander in Chief of all the US Armed Forces.

One of the first things I would do is implement the recommendations of the Moorer Commission, which would include a real investigation of what happen with the Liberty.

If the investigation showed that the goddamn Israelis did it on purpose, as I am sure it would, I would consider an attack on Israel as payback.

Should I order the attack I would be sure to make sure that you would be part of the attacking force. I may give you direct orders to kill the Israelis like they killed the men on the Liberty.

The question I had to you is would do what was ordered? Would you kill the Israelis like they killed the American servicemen? Would you attack their lifeboats as the Israelis did the Americans? Would you do it and then lie about it later?

Maybe you would chickenshit out and go on sick call or something. Maybe you would retire or find some lame excuse not to do what you were ordered to do.

Because you are a proven liar I suspect that you will deny that you wouldn’t follow orders but I know from your previous posts that you would never fight against your beloved Israel. Your loyalty is to them and not to the United States of America. You have made that crystal clear.

I did answer this. And unlike you, I provide links (http://www.conservativeunderground.com/forum505/showpost.php?p=22446&postcount=40) and quotes to prove that I did.

Once again, I didn't think that the question was serious. It's just a stupid situation, since no US President would give that order, not even someone as screwed up as Jimmy Carter. But, to answer your question, if a Commander-In-Chief stated that it was necessary to fight Israel, and gave the order, I'd follow it.
BTW, the only basis that you have for calling me a liar is that I denied that I have a conflicted loyalty to the US, which you've repeatedly called a lie. OTOH, when it comes to answering questions, you have a habit furiously typing obscenities and then pretending that you've addressed the question. Now, there are a number of questions that I've repeatedly asked you, but which you have claimed to have answered without ever providing any answers. Would you do the the courtesy of doing what I just did for you, which is to provide a link or a quote? Here, once again, are those questions: I'd thank you for taking the time to answer, but we both know that you won't.


You've claimed that Israelis kicked the Arabs off of their own land, but if this were the case, how did they do it?
The UN partition plan would have divided up Palestine into two regions, based solely on who was in the majority in those areas. Jews would have only had sovereignty over their own enclaves, while Arabs would have had sovereignty over theirs, while Jerusalem, which has had a Jewish majority since biblical times, would have been an open city. The Jews were willing to accept this, but not the Arabs. Ask yourself why the Arabs would not accept a tiny Jewish state on land in which they were already the majority?
If hatred of Israel is the only thing driving Arab policies, then why is it that they are backing Islamic revolutions in the Philippines, Chechnya, Thailand and Kenya, none of which was ever an ally or supporter of Israel? Why are there Islamiist jihads against Christian Animists in Darfur, Baha'is in Iran, or anywhere else that a sizeable Moslem community butts up against anyone else?
But, let's play your game for the moment. Let's say that, for the sake of argument, the "goddamn pieces of shit Iraelis" had intended to destroy the Liberty and prevent it from doing whatever it was that you think would have done more damage to Israel than a horrific friendly fire incident against their most important ally would have done, I have just one question. Why not sink the vessel with all hands and then claim that it was an accident, with no one left alive to rebut the issue? What is the logic of damaging the ship, but not sinking it? Why, when the Liberty was completely defenseless and at the mercy of a superior force, did the Israelis stop?

gator
06-18-2009, 02:25 PM
Do you read your posts?


You use words like Filthy, dirty etc

Sounds like hatred to me or try using those same words while describing Obama or any of his supporters you might be called a racist by many on this site (hazlnutsack, thinker) etc.

I reserve the right to use words like "dirty" and "filthy" to describe those pissant Middle East countries that attack America and kill our saliors like the Israelis did in June of 1967 and then lie about it. I will also use those words to describe those countries in the Middle East that spy on America and then sells the information to the Soviets as the Israelis did. Hell, the bastards even sold our weapons technology to the Chinese just make a buck. I will that term as appropriate for any foreign scumbags and Israel certainly fits the bill.

The moniker is certainly appropriate for those countries like Israel that run a world class scam effort to buy the representation of our politicians so they can get my taxpayer money.

Like I said before. Not hatred but just a good old case of moral clarity. Something you are lacking in regards to Israel.

gator
06-18-2009, 02:45 PM
BTW, the only basis that you have for calling me a liar is that I denied that I have a conflicted loyalty to the US, which you've repeatedly called a lie.

You spend a good part of each working day on an Internet discussion board when you should be working defending a country that attacked the US on purpose and killed 34 of my fellow veterans and wounded 170 more and you wonder why I questioned your fucking loyalty. The people that I know that are loyal to America don’t defend countries that attack America, do they? I guess in your mind if the country is Israel then they do, right?

You defend Israel on every friggen thing including their brutality to the Palestinians and even spying on us and you wonder why I question your fucking loyalty? Are you that stupid?

You attacked the crewmembers of the Liberty like Ennis and attacked men like Moorer and Boston because they questioned the Israeli account of the attack. My God man you are such a pathetic little shit you called Ward Boston a liar. A few months ago you proudly posted Jay Cristol’s filthy little essay about Boston being a liar and you wonder why I questioned your loyalty?

You are absolutely worthless. You don’t have a clue what being loyal to America is if it is in conflict with your loyalty to Israel.

I don’t give a shit if you like what I say or not. I am not going to waste my time answering a sniveling little shit like you.

gator
06-18-2009, 02:52 PM
Sounds like some would be happier if the Liberty would have sunk and there had been no survivors to tell the truth.

That was the goal of the Israelis.

Only the heroic actions of the crew and McGonagle saved the ship. McGonagle was awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor although the citation failed to mention that it was because of his efforts in an Israeli attack on America. The CMOH was much to LBJ's chagrin because of the embarrassment to the Israeli lobby. Of course he got even with McGonagle by not giving him the medal in the White House. McGonagle, like the rest of the crewmembers were told to shut up about the incident or else they would go to jail.

Sonnabend
06-18-2009, 03:52 PM
American business, you wouldn't understand.I understand too well.They were where they were not supposed to be, broadcasting military information about Israel and got shot at.

Incidentally, every time you refer to "your NSA brothers" you admit that you are or were part of a spy agency and hence are in no position to criticise anyone for using intel services that the US uses worldwide.

Anti semite
Hypocrite
Abusive

Describes you perfectly.

patriot45
06-18-2009, 03:56 PM
I understand too well.They were where they were not supposed to be, broadcasting military information about Israel and got shot at.

Incidentally, every time you refer to "your NSA brothers" you admit that you are or were part of a spy agency and hence are in no position to criticise anyone for using intel services that the US uses worldwide.

Anti semite
Hypocrite
Abusive

Describes you perfectly.

You need to read about where they were.

The June 8, 1967 attack took place in international waters in the Mediterranean Sea just off Sinai coast.

Sonnabend
06-18-2009, 04:00 PM
The June 8, 1967 attack took place in international waters in the Mediterranean Sea just off Sinai coast.

In the middle of a war zone.:rolleyes:

Teetop
06-18-2009, 04:28 PM
[QUOTE=gator;146996]Here is an example of the information that I posted before. I went ahead and posted it because I wanted everyone to see that you don't know what the fuck you are talking about.

To make sure you know what you are reading these are the Cristol sources cited by your buddy Guttman from Haaretz as being proof that the Isrealis did not attack the Liberty on purpose. Your good friend Guttman published his little article in Haaretz when Cristol's book came out.

Cristol Claim of 13 Investigations Into Israel’s Attack on USS Liberty a Travesty

By Terence O’Keefe

When A. Jay Cristol’s The Liberty Incident was released a year ago, it was uncritically hailed as the last word in the 36-year controversy surrounding Israel’s 1967 attack on the USS Liberty that took 34 American lives and wounded 172. The book was packed with tedious minutiae arguing the case. Indeed, if its author is to be believed, Liberty survivors have engaged in a 36-year slander against the state of Israel—which was guilty, at worst, of a grievous mistake in the heat of war.

“Thirteen investigations have all exonerated Israel,” is Cristol’s mantra.

Like many others, I found the author’s case initially persuasive. Here, after all, is a federal judge, a Navy captain, author, scholar, former Navy lawyer and apparently a combat fighter pilot who claims to have studied this matter for 15 years, with an open mind, and who finally was forced to conclude that it was a tragic accident. Those who say otherwise, I agreed, must be either mistaken or malicious.

But the survivors are persuasive, too—and Cristol dismisses their eyewitness accounts out-of-hand. Eyewitnesses, he claims, are not reliable, as they are too close to the event to be believed. Better to rely upon dispassionate historians such as himself who examine the evidence later, with a cooler and more objective vision.

It was with that view that I decided to examine both the Cristol and the Liberty positions in an effort to find where the truth lies. For more than a year I queried survivors and Mr. Cristol himself, seeking facts, evidence and the truth.

To most questions, Cristol points to his account of 13 exonerating investigations, so I focused closely on those. Here is the result:


Cristol’s 13 Investigations

1. The U.S. Navy Court of Inquiry: The senior legal adviser to the Court of Inquiry reflected that, in his entire career, he has never seen court of inquiry appointing letters with such limited authority, or an investigation made in such haste. The court’s hearings began before the Liberty even arrived in Malta, and the report was completed just 10 days after the attack. The court commented on this haste in the official record: “The Court of Inquiry experienced no unusual difficulties incident to conducting the subject proceedings except for the necessity of investigating such a major naval disaster of international significance in an extremely abbreviated time frame.”

Due in part to the required haste and the limitations imposed on the scope of the court’s inquiries (“It was not the responsibility of the court to rule on the culpability of the attackers, and no evidence was heard from the attacking nation”), the court concluded that “available evidence combines to indicate...[that the attack was] a case of mistaken identity.”

How, one might ask, could one inquire into all of the circumstances without hearing from the attacking nation? In fact, the court did neither. According to Captain Ward Boston, chief legal counsel to the Court of Inquiry, the court found that the attack was deliberate, but reported falsely that it was not because they were directed by the president of the United States and the secretary of defense to report falsely. So the findings are fraudulent. Yet these fraudulent findings were the basis for several other reports that followed.

2. Israeli government investigations: The Ram Ron and Yerushalmi reports of 1967 were not investigations. Both were elements of an Israeli process to determine whether anyone in Israel should be tried for a crime. That the attack itself was an accident was a given. Both hearings officers determined that no one in Israel did anything wrong, and that the USS Liberty was partly responsible, for a number of contrived reasons, such as “failure to fly a flag” and “trying to hide”—which the Navy Court of Inquiry found to be untrue.

3. The Joint Chiefs of Staff Report of June 1967: This was an inquiry into the mishandling of several messages intended for the ship. It was not an investigation into the attack. It did not exonerate Israel, because it did not in any way consider the question of culpability.

4. CIA report of June 13, 1967: This interim report, completed five days after the attack, reported “our best judgment [is] that the attack...was a mistake.” No investigation was conducted, and no first-hand evidence was collected. Then-CIA Director Richard Helms concluded and later reported in his autobiography that the attack was planned and deliberate—a fact ignored by Mr. Cristol. :rolleyes:

5. Clark Clifford report of July 18, 1967: Clark Clifford was directed by Lyndon Johnson to review the Court of Inquiry report and the interim CIA report and “not to make an independent inquiry.” His was merely a summary of other fallacious reports, not an “investigation” as alleged by Mr. Cristol. The report reached no conclusions and did not exonerate Israel, as Mr. Cristol also claimed. On the contrary, Clifford wrote later that he regarded the attack as deliberate—a fact ignored by Mr. Cristol. :rolleyes:

6. and 7. Two Senate Investigations: The Committee on Foreign Relations meeting of 1967 and Senate Armed Services Committee meeting of 1968 were hearings on unrelated matters which clearly skeptical members used to castigate representatives of the administration under oath before them. Typical questions were, “Why can’t we get the truth about this?” They were not “investigations” at all, but budget hearings, and reported no conclusions concerning the attack. They did not exonerate Israel, as claimed by Mr. Cristol.

8. House Appropriations Committee meeting of April and May 1968: This was a budget committee meeting which explored the issue of lost messages intended for the ship. It was not an investigation and reported no conclusions concerning the attack, as alleged by Mr. Cristol.

[QUOTE]

Nice "debunking" with an unbiased source there gator...

My question is, Why did the Capt. of the USS Liberty disregard instructions from higher-ups to steer clear of the war zone?

....

Before dawn on June 8, three days into the war, the Liberty finally reached its destination, barely within international waters north of the Sinai coast. Plying at a speed of five knots between Port Said and Gaza, the Liberty entered a lane rarely used by commercial freighters, which Egypt had declared closed to neutral vessels. Anxious about his proximity to the fighting, McGonagle asked the Sixth Fleet commander, Vice-Adm. William Martin, for permission to pull back from the shore, or else to be provided with a destroyer escort. Martin rejected these requests, noting that the Liberty "is a clearly marked United States ship in international waters and not a reasonable subject for attack by any nation."

Unbeknownst to both Martin and McGonagle, however, the JCS had repeatedly cabled the Liberty the previous night with instructions to withdraw to a distance of one hundred miles from the Egyptian and Israeli coasts. The transmission was delayed, however, by the navy's overloaded, overly complex communication system, which routed messages as far east as the Philippines before relaying them to their destinations. The JCS' orders would not be received by the Liberty until the following day, June 9, by which time they would no longer be relevant.17
....

17. LBJ, National Security File, History of the Middle East Crisis, Box 19: JCS to USCINCEUR, June 8, 1967; Box 104/107, The National Military Command Center: Attack on the USS Liberty, June 9, 1967; Department of Defense: USS Liberty Incident, June 15, 1967. usna, Chairman Wheeler Files, Box 27: The Court of Inquiry Findings, June 22, 1967.

Teetop
06-18-2009, 04:31 PM
I reserve the right to use words like "dirty" and "filthy" to describe those pissant Middle East countries that attack America and kill our saliors like the Israelis did in June of 1967 and then lie about it. I will also use those words to describe those countries in the Middle East that spy on America and then sells the information to the Soviets as the Israelis did. Hell, the bastards even sold our weapons technology to the Chinese just make a buck. I will that term as appropriate for any foreign scumbags and Israel certainly fits the bill.

The moniker is certainly appropriate for those countries like Israel that run a world class scam effort to buy the representation of our politicians so they can get my taxpayer money.

Like I said before. Not hatred but just a good old case of moral clarity. Something you are lacking in regards to Israel.

Pot, meet kettle...


So, in your lil pea brain, it's perfectly fine for the US to spy on others, but when a ship (the USS Liberty) is where it's not supposed to be, gets hit, during wartime. It's a neocon/Israeli/Jooooooooooooooooooish cover-up?

Get an effin life, dude.

Lars1701a
06-18-2009, 04:32 PM
I love when someone who worked for the NSA spied on countries (like Israel) bitch when they spy on us. Let me clue you in friends and foes alike spy on us like we spy on them. I dont blame Israel or any other country for doing that.

Lars1701a
06-18-2009, 04:34 PM
Pot, meet kettle...


So, in your lil pea brain, it's perfectly fine for the US to spy on others, but when a ship (the USS Liberty) is where it's not supposed to be, gets hit, during wartime. It's a neocon/Israeli/Jooooooooooooooooooish cover-up?

Get an effin life, dude.

Was the ship in a war zone? was it spying on Israel? I honestly don't know.

I cant see why they would hit the ship on purpose when anyone with a brain cell would know it would piss us off or why didnt they sink it then?

Teetop
06-18-2009, 04:36 PM
Was the ship in a war zone? was it spying on Israel? I honestly don't know.

I cant see why they would hit the ship on purpose when anyone with a brain cell would know it would piss us off or why didnt they sink it then?

If the evil Zionist wanted to sink the USS Liberty, it would be at the bottom the the Med...

Phillygirl
06-18-2009, 05:25 PM
You spend a good part of each working day on an Internet discussion board when you should be working defending a country that attacked the US on purpose and killed 34 of my fellow veterans and wounded 170 more and you wonder why I questioned your fucking loyalty. The people that I know that are loyal to America don’t defend countries that attack America, do they? I guess in your mind if the country is Israel then they do, right?

You defend Israel on every friggen thing including their brutality to the Palestinians and even spying on us and you wonder why I question your fucking loyalty? Are you that stupid?

You attacked the crewmembers of the Liberty like Ennis and attacked men like Moorer and Boston because they questioned the Israeli account of the attack. My God man you are such a pathetic little shit you called Ward Boston a liar. A few months ago you proudly posted Jay Cristol’s filthy little essay about Boston being a liar and you wonder why I questioned your loyalty?

You are absolutely worthless. You don’t have a clue what being loyal to America is if it is in conflict with your loyalty to Israel.

I don’t give a shit if you like what I say or not. I am not going to waste my time answering a sniveling little shit like you.
Hey Gator, unless I'm mistaken, it is not for any of us to determine if Odysseus is working hard enough. Last I checked, while the U.S. government may get to lease our service members, they don't actually own them and the fact that he spends any of his down time on the internet should not be reason to criticize him or question his patriotism. If all of us were held to that standard Leavenworth would be pretty full right now.

gator
06-18-2009, 05:42 PM
I love when someone who worked for the NSA spied on countries (like Israel) bitch when they spy on us. Let me clue you in friends and foes alike spy on us like we spy on them. I dont blame Israel or any other country for doing that.

Is that what you will resort to in order to give the Israelis a pass? That is pathetic.

You will slam your own country and say that the Israelis were justified in killing the 34 Americans?

My God you will do anything to protect the Israelis, won't you?

I guess in your mind Al Qaeda was justified in attacking New York City because the US had lobbed some rockets into their training camps in Afghanistan.

I suspect the only people you will give a pass on attacking the US are the Israelis. That is typical for Israelis supporters.

gator
06-18-2009, 05:49 PM
I

Incidentally, every time you refer to "your NSA brothers" you admit that you are or were part of a spy agency and hence are in no position to criticise anyone for using intel services that the US uses worldwide.


When I worked in Germany the ASA unit I worked for mostly kept tabs on the Third Soviet Shock Army. Other NSA operatives kept tabs on the other places of interest to the US in Europe and the Middle East.

In Vietnam our job was to find the enemy and then forward the information so that the enemy could be killed. We were very good at it.

I understand the Israelis, the Soviets and the VC and other enemies of the US would feel that the mission of the NSA was a threat to their security.

The loathsome thing about the Israelis is that they did not declare war on the US and then attacked us. They did like the Japs and launched a sneak attack. Once they found out that LBJ was going to give them a pass they lied about everything.

gator
06-18-2009, 06:00 PM
Hey Gator, unless I'm mistaken, it is not for any of us to determine if Odysseus is working hard enough. Last I checked, while the U.S. government may get to lease our service members, they don't actually own them and the fact that he spends any of his down time on the internet should not be reason to criticize him or question his patriotism. If all of us were held to that standard Leavenworth would be pretty full right now.

He is the one that put his loyalty into question by putting the interest of a foreign country ahead of his own. In fact he was very adamant about it. I just merely called him on it, which is what you do on an Internet discussion forum.

I know a member of the armed forces nowadays that can't even take time off from work to get his new wife an ID card or an insurance card. He is working long days and nights. He doesn’t have time to sit on his ass all day long participating in an Internet discussion forum. I am just always curious as to why this Odysseys character claims to be in the military but yet has time to spend his days defending Israel on the Internet. You would think that since he claims to be in the military he would have other more important things to do, wouldn’t you? Maybe defending Israel is his top priority now.

I have a good excuse; I am in between consulting jobs and for a couple of weeks don’t have anything else better to do. It will come to an end soon.

Phillygirl
06-18-2009, 06:11 PM
He is the one that put his loyalty into question by putting the interest of a foreign country ahead of his own. In fact he was very adamant about it. I just merely called him on it, which is what you do on an Internet discussion forum.

I know a member of the armed forces nowadays that can't even take time off from work to get his new wife an ID card or an insurance card. He is working long days and nights. He doesn’t have time to sit on his ass all day long participating in an Internet discussion forum. I am just always curious as to why this Odysseys character claims to be in the military but yet has time to spend his days defending Israel on the Internet. You would think that since he claims to be in the military he would have other more important things to do, wouldn’t you? Maybe defending Israel is his top priority now.

I have a good excuse; I am in between consulting jobs and for a couple of weeks don’t have anything else better to do. It will come to an end soon.

You were in the military. You know how it goes. With rank, comes privilege. You want to call him on his views on foreign policy regarding Israel...I have no problem with that and look forward to your arguments regarding it, they're always a good read. Complaining that he's spending time on the internet instead of doing something work related...meh, not so effective. I also don't think that agreeing with our decades long foreign policy is indicative of disloyalty to America. It may be misplaced. It may be wrongheaded, but it's not necessarily disloyal. People have been convinced that our alliance to Israel is beneficial to our national interests for so long that even questioning it can seem unpatriotic. I don't buy into that.

It will be interesting to see how it goes, however, since Obama certainly doesn't seem to kowtow to Israel. I have a feeling if that is ever properly reported that some of the Florida demographics may be up for grabs in the next election, however.

Odysseus
06-18-2009, 06:35 PM
I reserve the right to use words like "dirty" and "filthy" to describe those pissant Middle East countries that attack America and kill our saliors like the Israelis did in June of 1967 and then lie about it. I will also use those words to describe those countries in the Middle East that spy on America and then sells the information to the Soviets as the Israelis did. Hell, the bastards even sold our weapons technology to the Chinese just make a buck. I will that term as appropriate for any foreign scumbags and Israel certainly fits the bill.

The moniker is certainly appropriate for those countries like Israel that run a world class scam effort to buy the representation of our politicians so they can get my taxpayer money.

Like I said before. Not hatred but just a good old case of moral clarity. Something you are lacking in regards to Israel.
No, not hatred:rolleyes:. And yet, the Saudis have bought many US politicians and bankrolled terrorists, and you've never referred to them as "filthy" or "bastards." Iran attacked our embassy, an act of war, humiliated America by parading our diplomats and Marines as hostages for 444 days, bankrolled Hezbollah (which kidnapped and murdered Americans in Lebanon) and has supplied the new generation of IEDs that has put the lives of Americans (including your son) at risk in Iraq, not to mention caused the deaths of dozens, but you've never referred to them as "filthy" or "bastards." None of these nations get the full Gator treatment of being called "scumbags""pissants" or any of the other names that you reserve exclusively for Israelis, and only those Israelis who are not Arab or Christian, I.e., Jews. No, no hatred there. :rolleyes:

You spend a good part of each working day on an Internet discussion board when you should be working defending a country that attacked the US on purpose and killed 34 of my fellow veterans and wounded 170 more and you wonder why I questioned your fucking loyalty. The people that I know that are loyal to America don’t defend countries that attack America, do they? I guess in your mind if the country is Israel then they do, right?

You defend Israel on every friggen thing including their brutality to the Palestinians and even spying on us and you wonder why I question your fucking loyalty? Are you that stupid?

You attacked the crewmembers of the Liberty like Ennis and attacked men like Moorer and Boston because they questioned the Israeli account of the attack. My God man you are such a pathetic little shit you called Ward Boston a liar. A few months ago you proudly posted Jay Cristol’s filthy little essay about Boston being a liar and you wonder why I questioned your loyalty?

You are absolutely worthless. You don’t have a clue what being loyal to America is if it is in conflict with your loyalty to Israel.

I don’t give a shit if you like what I say or not. I am not going to waste my time answering a sniveling little shit like you.
Ladies and Gentlemen, I present the Gator response to a massive defeat! Note that when he claimed that I hadn't answered his question, I provided a link that proved that I had (which makes Gator the liar, sorry, but that's the way it goes), then asked him to link to his answers to my questions, which he continues to refuse to answer.

I ask you all:
Is Gator fooling anyone?

Gator, the we're all tired of you trying to hide your verbal impotence by sticking your tail between your legs and pretending that it's an erection. In other words, you can't answer those questions, but you will rant and rave and insult me instead and hope that no one notices the misdirection, then declare victory and walk off in a cloud of profanity. It's not working. We all see it.


Hey Gator, unless I'm mistaken, it is not for any of us to determine if Odysseus is working hard enough. Last I checked, while the U.S. government may get to lease our service members, they don't actually own them and the fact that he spends any of his down time on the internet should not be reason to criticize him or question his patriotism. If all of us were held to that standard Leavenworth would be pretty full right now.
Gator would have no problem if I spent every waking minute on CU if I agreed with him. It galls him that he's being out-argued by a Jew.

Odysseus
06-18-2009, 06:46 PM
He is the one that put his loyalty into question by putting the interest of a foreign country ahead of his own. In fact he was very adamant about it. I just merely called him on it, which is what you do on an Internet discussion forum.
My loyalty to the United States is not in question, unless you consider, as you do, that a Jew cannot be loyal to America first. Where you make that claim isn't the issue, the fact that you make it is despicable.

I know a member of the armed forces nowadays that can't even take time off from work to get his new wife an ID card or an insurance card. He is working long days and nights. He doesn’t have time to sit on his ass all day long participating in an Internet discussion forum. I am just always curious as to why this Odysseys character claims to be in the military but yet has time to spend his days defending Israel on the Internet. You would think that since he claims to be in the military he would have other more important things to do, wouldn’t you? Maybe defending Israel is his top priority now.
Ah, now you claim to not believe that I'm in the army? What do you want, a copy of my last three OERs, my 2-1 and my ORB? Give it up! First, you complain that I "sit on my ass all day long participating in an Internet discussion forum," but when I provided information to the contrary, you called me a liar without any proof. It's not the amount of time that I spend here, or anything other than the fact that you hate being proven wrong oover and over. If you can't win on the facts (and you can't), you insult my loyalty. If you can't disprove my loyalty, you insult my work ethic. If you can't disparage my job performance (last two OERs were top blocs, but you know more than my rater and senior rater, right?), you try to bury me in foul language and when that fails, you shriek about my disrespect for the men of the Liberty, who you are exploiting out of blind hatred, but it all comes back to my being a Jew, and therefore disloyal to America. You are predictable and sad.

I have a good excuse; I am in between consulting jobs and for a couple of weeks don’t have anything else better to do. It will come to an end soon.
That explains the amount of time on your hands. What's your excuse for the bigotry?

Lars1701a
06-18-2009, 07:44 PM
Just love watching Ody use Gator as a chew toy :)

gator
06-18-2009, 08:13 PM
. Complaining that he's spending time on the internet instead of doing something work related...meh, not so effective.

He gets a double whammy when I post. Not only is he in disbelief that an American would actually question his beloved Israel but also the fact that he is in the military and sits around on his ass all day long searching the internet and adamantly defending Israel. The boy is very confused. He is not use to being questioned and he cries about whenever he can.


I also don't think that agreeing with our decades long foreign policy is indicative of disloyalty to America. It may be misplaced. It may be wrongheaded, but it's not necessarily disloyal. People have been convinced that our alliance to Israel is beneficial to our national interests for so long that even questioning it can seem unpatriotic. I don't buy into that.


I disagree. Putting the interest of Israel ahead of the interest of America is disloyal. Just because politicians taking money from the pro Israel lobby make it our foreign policy doesn’t make it right.

There is no reason why the US should guarantee the security of Israel. It is not in our best interest. It cost our money and lives and we get nothing for it but grief. They are a brutal apartheid theocracy and it is immoral for us to give them weapons to they can kill people and steal land to accommodate their right of return policy. We are better than that, aren’t we?

gator
06-18-2009, 08:28 PM
If the evil Zionist wanted to sink the USS Liberty, it would be at the bottom the the Med...

Since you have this insight then maybe you should lobby Congress to take away Captain McGonagle Congressional Medal of Honor because the citations says that only because of his heroic leadership was the ship saved from sinking.

Medal of Honor citation of Captain William L. McGonagle:

"For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty as Commanding Officer, USS Liberty (AGTR-5) in the Eastern Mediterranean on 8-9 June 1967. Sailing in international waters, the Liberty was attacked without warning by jet fighter aircraft and motor torpedo boats which inflicted many casualties among the crew and caused extreme damage to the ship. Although severely wounded during the first air attack, Captain (then Commander) McGonagle remained at his battle station on the badly damaged bridge and, with full knowledge of the seriousness of his wounds, subordinated his own welfare to the safety and survival of his command. Steadfastly refusing any treatment which would take him away from his post, he calmly continued to exercise firm command of his ship. Despite continuous exposure to fire, he maneuvered his ship, directed its defense, supervised the control of flooding and fire, and saw to the care of the casualties. Captain McGonagle's extraordinary valor under these conditions inspired the surviving members of the Liberty's crew, many of them seriously wounded, to heroic efforts to overcome the battle damage and keep the ship afloat. Subsequent to the attack, although in great pain and weak from the loss of blood, Captain McGonagle remained at his battle station and continued to conn his ship for more than seventeen hours. It was only after rendezvous with a United States destroyer that he relinquished personal control of the Liberty and permitted himself to be removed from the bridge. Even then, he refused much needed medical attention until convinced that the seriously wounded among his crew had been treated. Captain McGonagle's superb professionalism, courageous fighting spirit, and valiant leadership saved his ship and many lives. His actions sustain and enhance the finest traditions of the United States Naval Service."

Notice that the citation doesn't even bother to mention the goddamn Israelis. You would think that since the bastards were the ones that attacked the ship they would have at least been mentioned by name, wouldn't you?

Odysseus
06-18-2009, 08:33 PM
Just love watching Ody use Gator as a chew toy :)
I could have lived without that image. Yuck.

That reminds me of the joke about the tiger that was walking through the jungle eating elephant turds. Another tiger asked him what he was doing, and the first one said, "I just ate a lawyer and I'm trying to get the taste out of my mouth."

He gets a double whammy when I post. Not only is he in disbelief that an American would actually question his beloved Israel but also the fact that he is in the military and sits around on his ass all day long searching the internet and adamantly defending Israel. The boy is very confused. He is not use to being questioned and he cries about whenever he can.
I'm not the one who cries about being questioned. I have no problem answering yours, but when you're presented with mine, you run off screaming about how you don't have to answer to me. Here are the questions, yet again:


You've claimed that Israelis kicked the Arabs off of their own land, but if this were the case, how did they do it?
The UN partition plan would have divided up Palestine into two regions, based solely on who was in the majority in those areas. Jews would have only had sovereignty over their own enclaves, while Arabs would have had sovereignty over theirs, while Jerusalem, which has had a Jewish majority since biblical times, would have been an open city. The Jews were willing to accept this, but not the Arabs. Ask yourself why the Arabs would not accept a tiny Jewish state on land in which they were already the majority?
If hatred of Israel is the only thing driving Arab policies, then why is it that they are backing Islamic revolutions in the Philippines, Chechnya, Thailand and Kenya, none of which was ever an ally or supporter of Israel? Why are there Islamiist jihads against Christian Animists in Darfur, Baha'is in Iran, or anywhere else that a sizeable Moslem community butts up against anyone else?
But, let's play your game for the moment. Let's say that, for the sake of argument, the "goddamn pieces of shit Iraelis" had intended to destroy the Liberty and prevent it from doing whatever it was that you think would have done more damage to Israel than a horrific friendly fire incident against their most important ally would have done, I have just one question. Why not sink the vessel with all hands and then claim that it was an accident, with no one left alive to rebut the issue? What is the logic of damaging the ship, but not sinking it? Why, when the Liberty was completely defenseless and at the mercy of a superior force, did the Israelis stop?

The last time that I presented them, your response was:

I don’t give a shit if you like what I say or not. I am not going to waste my time answering a sniveling little shit like you.
In other words, you ran off, sniveling, pretending that you were taking the high road. Is that your tail between your legs or are you just happy to see me? Just what I thought, it's your tail.

Isn't it time for you to man up and answer the questions, you coward?

I disagree. Putting the interest of Israel ahead of the interest of America is disloyal. Just because politicians taking money from the pro Israel lobby make it our foreign policy doesn’t make it right.

There is no reason why the US should guarantee the security of Israel. It is not in our best interest. It cost our money and lives and we get nothing for it but grief. They are a brutal apartheid theocracy and it is immoral for us to give them weapons to they can kill people and steal land to accommodate their right of return policy. We are better than that, aren’t we?
Blah blah blah pro Israel lobby blah blah blah brutal apartheid theocracy blah blah kill people blah steal land. Don't you ever go into any detail? I've asked for examples, documentation, anything other than the same tired talking points which you blather on about withhout any evidence. I guess that's easier than answering my questions, especially since I proved that I answered yours (also proving you to be a liar at the same time). Pathetic, Gator. Really pathetic.

BTW, I recorded two AARs today, worked a FRAGO for the next unit that's coming here to train, put out a bunch of fires and still hadtime to make you look like an idiot. Tomorrow, I have five AARs to capture, followed by consolidation of slide data into a presentation to our higher headquarters, and production of our own AAR notes to higher, and if you think that I won't get all of that done and still take a few minutes to ream you on your bigotry and ignorance, well, you've got the wrong Jewish major.

Odysseus
06-18-2009, 08:57 PM
Since you have this insight then maybe you should lobby Congress to take away Captain McGonagle Congressional Medal of Honor because the citations says that only because of his heroic leadership was the ship saved from sinking.

Medal of Honor citation of Captain William L. McGonagle:

"For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty as Commanding Officer, USS Liberty (AGTR-5) in the Eastern Mediterranean on 8-9 June 1967. Sailing in international waters, the Liberty was attacked without warning by jet fighter aircraft and motor torpedo boats which inflicted many casualties among the crew and caused extreme damage to the ship. Although severely wounded during the first air attack, Captain (then Commander) McGonagle remained at his battle station on the badly damaged bridge and, with full knowledge of the seriousness of his wounds, subordinated his own welfare to the safety and survival of his command. Steadfastly refusing any treatment which would take him away from his post, he calmly continued to exercise firm command of his ship. Despite continuous exposure to fire, he maneuvered his ship, directed its defense, supervised the control of flooding and fire, and saw to the care of the casualties. Captain McGonagle's extraordinary valor under these conditions inspired the surviving members of the Liberty's crew, many of them seriously wounded, to heroic efforts to overcome the battle damage and keep the ship afloat. Subsequent to the attack, although in great pain and weak from the loss of blood, Captain McGonagle remained at his battle station and continued to conn his ship for more than seventeen hours. It was only after rendezvous with a United States destroyer that he relinquished personal control of the Liberty and permitted himself to be removed from the bridge. Even then, he refused much needed medical attention until convinced that the seriously wounded among his crew had been treated. Captain McGonagle's superb professionalism, courageous fighting spirit, and valiant leadership saved his ship and many lives. His actions sustain and enhance the finest traditions of the United States Naval Service."

Notice that the citation doesn't even bother to mention the goddamn Israelis. You would think that since the bastards were the ones that attacked the ship they would have at least been mentioned by name, wouldn't you?

It also doesn't mention that they broke off the attack before the ship was too far gone to recover. If they hadn't, CPT McGonagle's award would have been posthumous (and no, I'm not saying that I wanted it that way or that I have anything less than the utmost respect for CPT McGonagle and his heroism, but that won't matter, you'll accuse me of it anyway). The first surface vessels on the scene were Israeli torpedo boats. If they'd wanted to sink the Liberty, they could have done so easily. Why didn't they? What was the motive that would explain a deliberate attack?

Let's say that the Israelis wanted to provoke US entry into the war on their side by faking an Arab attack on a US ship. That might be a plausible motive, but then why did they stop when the ship was defenseless? Why break off the attack and leave witnesses if their intent was to kill any witnesses?

If, as Admiral Moorer believed, the goal of the Israelis was to keep the Liberty from determining the extent of their gains in the Golan Heights, why not simply board the ship and detain the crew until the end of the conflict? The Liberty couldn't have fought off a full squadron, and the incident would have generated far less controversy. Besides, the Liberty didn't have any Hebrew linguists, and since it had no line of sight to the shore, it couldn't have intercepted the Israeli tactical comms anyway, but even if it had, it had no way to translate them and that would have had to wait until the tactical commo was translated by the NSA, which might have taken weeks. By then, the campaign would have been over. Plus, in a telegram that was declassified several years after the Moorer Commission, the US ambassador had reported that the Israelis had already informed him that they intended to attack the Golan Heights in a briefing at the US embassy at Tel Aviv several hours before the Liberty was attacked, so Admiral Moorer's theory about why Israel attacked the Liberty has been proven wrong (through no fault of his own, ADM Moorer wouldn't have known about the briefing, but you'll still accuse me of calling him a liar).

Perhaps the Israelis wanted to hide the story that they had allegedly killed Egyptian prisoners in the Sinai? Except that they were still fighting in the Sinai when the Liberty was hit, and the naval and air force commanders who would have given the orders for the attack wouldn't have known about a small scale atrocity (the number of Egyptians alleged to have been killed was under 300, while the total number of prisoners was over 4,000, and that story has been debunked repeatedly) until the battle was over, long after the Liberty was hit. Besides, how would attacking the Liberty prevent the story from coming out? It was far more likely to call attention to other questionable acts during the war than deflect attention, and let's face it, which was going to cause more trouble, the story of Egyptians getting killed in combat or an attack on a neutral ship? And, again, that line of sight issue. If the Liberty wasn't within sight of the transmitters, it couldn't pick up FM radio, and the Israeli tactical commo was FM.

So, what possible motive did the Israelis have for killing some of the crew of the Liberty, then breaking off the attack and offering aid?

lacarnut
06-18-2009, 11:14 PM
My loyalty to the United States is not in question, unless you consider, as you do, that a Jew cannot be loyal to America first. Where you make that claim isn't the issue, the fact that you make it is despicable.




I can understand Gator's position on the Liberty. I can understand his position on not giving aid to Israel. What I can not understand is his attack on a US soldier just because he is Jewish. He suspects that Odysseus allegiance is to Israel rather than to the US which he has sworn to protect. I don't think he has any evidence. If he does, I would like to see it; if not, is Gator not breaking the cardinal rule of bashing a soldier? Bashing a country is ok in my opinion; bashing a US soldier on active duty is sick. He could have a thing against officers.:)

I might be a little crazy but I am not filled with hate like Gator is. Thank God for that. Gator, you need professional help; your hatred is driving you nuts.

Teetop
06-19-2009, 12:04 AM
Since you have this insight then maybe you should lobby Congress to take away Captain McGonagle Congressional Medal of Honor because the citations says that only because of his heroic leadership was the ship saved from sinking.

Medal of Honor citation of Captain William L. McGonagle:

"For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty as Commanding Officer, USS Liberty (AGTR-5) in the Eastern Mediterranean on 8-9 June 1967. Sailing in international waters, the Liberty was attacked without warning by jet fighter aircraft and motor torpedo boats which inflicted many casualties among the crew and caused extreme damage to the ship. Although severely wounded during the first air attack, Captain (then Commander) McGonagle remained at his battle station on the badly damaged bridge and, with full knowledge of the seriousness of his wounds, subordinated his own welfare to the safety and survival of his command. Steadfastly refusing any treatment which would take him away from his post, he calmly continued to exercise firm command of his ship. Despite continuous exposure to fire, he maneuvered his ship, directed its defense, supervised the control of flooding and fire, and saw to the care of the casualties. Captain McGonagle's extraordinary valor under these conditions inspired the surviving members of the Liberty's crew, many of them seriously wounded, to heroic efforts to overcome the battle damage and keep the ship afloat. Subsequent to the attack, although in great pain and weak from the loss of blood, Captain McGonagle remained at his battle station and continued to conn his ship for more than seventeen hours. It was only after rendezvous with a United States destroyer that he relinquished personal control of the Liberty and permitted himself to be removed from the bridge. Even then, he refused much needed medical attention until convinced that the seriously wounded among his crew had been treated. Captain McGonagle's superb professionalism, courageous fighting spirit, and valiant leadership saved his ship and many lives. His actions sustain and enhance the finest traditions of the United States Naval Service."

Notice that the citation doesn't even bother to mention the goddamn Israelis. You would think that since the bastards were the ones that attacked the ship they would have at least been mentioned by name, wouldn't you?

Ex fucking'scuse me idiot?! Who the FUCK asked for his H. O. H. being taken away?!

YOU DUMBFUCK! NO ONE ELSE!

FUCK YOU YOU IGNORANT MOTHER FUCKER.

Do not put words into my mouth and if you want to ban my ass, have the fuck at it!

Teetop
06-19-2009, 12:13 AM
I just want to know one thing, gator? Who gets on top, you or patriot 45? :D

Not like this thread was a "set-up" or anything....right patriot45?


:rolleyes:

Teetop
06-19-2009, 12:21 AM
I also noticed gator never debunked my debunking of his bullshit debunking.


(If anyone can follow that line of shit from gator...)

Odysseus
06-19-2009, 12:22 AM
Ex fucking'scuse me idiot?! Who the FUCK asked for his H. O. H. being taken away?!

YOU DUMBFUCK! NO ONE ELSE!

FUCK YOU YOU IGNORANT MOTHER FUCKER.

Do not put words into my mouth and if you want to ban my ass, have the fuck at it!

Don't let him get to you. This is how he operates. If you ask him questions that he cannot answer, then he has to rephrase them into something that he can answer. Since you questioned why the Israelis didn't sink the Liberty when they had ample opportunity (a question that Gator cannot answer), he had to turn it into an attack on CPT McGonagle's MOH and accuse you of wanting to revoke it. It's just a straw man argument.

I went through the same thing with him on ADM Moorer, who believed that the attack on the Liberty was motivated by a desire to prevent the US from knowing that Israel had taken the Golan Heights. The problem with that theory is that documents that Moorer didn't know about at the time (they weren't declassified until Jay Cristol filed an FOIA suit to get them for his dissertation, which became his book) showed that the Israelis had briefed the US ambassador prior to the Golan campaign, and prior to the Liberty attack. This means that ADM Moorer's basic contention was incorrect, but he couldn't have known it at the time, so there's nothing dishonorable there, just an honest mistake, but Gator can't accept that ADM Moorer was mistaken about anything, so in order to refute this, Gator has to accuse me of slandering Moorer and impugning his honor. Similarly, Gator can't accept that I disagree with him for any reason except that I'm a Jew and therefore disloyal to America. His basis for calling me a liar is that I refuse to acknowledge this. Seriously. In his mind, I'm disloyal and refuse to admit it, therefore I'm also a liar. How nuts is that?

BTW, Gator's "debunking" of Cristol consisted of calling him a "Miami judge" with a string of obscenties.

djones520
06-19-2009, 12:30 AM
Is that "overwhelming evidence" the same type that proves Global Warming is man made?

Just curious.

Teetop
06-19-2009, 12:33 AM
Don't let him get to you. This is how he operates. If you ask him questions that he cannot answer, then he has to rephrase them into something that he can answer. Since you questioned why the Israelis didn't sink the Liberty when they had ample opportunity (a question that Gator cannot answer), he had to turn it into an attack on CPT McGonagle's MOH and accuse you of wanting to revoke it. It's just a straw man argument.

I went through the same thing with him on ADM Moorer, who believed that the attack on the Liberty was motivated by a desire to prevent the US from knowing that Israel had taken the Golan Heights. The problem with that theory is that documents that Moorer didn't know about at the time (they weren't declassified until Jay Cristol filed an FOIA suit to get them for his dissertation, which became his book) showed that the Israelis had briefed the US ambassador prior to the Golan campaign, and prior to the Liberty attack. This means that ADM Moorer's basic contention was incorrect, but he couldn't have known it at the time, so there's nothing dishonorable there, just an honest mistake, but Gator can't accept that ADM Moorer was mistaken about anything, so in order to refute this, Gator has to accuse me of slandering Moorer and impugning his honor. Similarly, Gator can't accept that I disagree with him for any reason except that I'm a Jew and therefore disloyal to America. His basis for calling me a liar is that I refuse to acknowledge this. Seriously. In his mind, I'm disloyal and refuse to admit it, therefore I'm also a liar. How nuts is that?

BTW, Gator's "debunking" of Cristol consisted of calling him a "Miami judge" with a string of obscenties.


Most witnesses from the USS Liberty had said one thing, but testimony said another.

gator don't wanna talk about that though........

Teetop
06-19-2009, 12:34 AM
Is that "overwhelming evidence" the same type that proves Global Warming is man made?

Just curious.

Doubtful... :D

Sonnabend
06-19-2009, 05:55 AM
Do not put words into my mouth and if you want to ban my ass, have the fuck at it!

Gator cant ban anyone. SR alone wields the ban hammer now

Phillygirl
06-19-2009, 09:24 AM
Gator would have no problem if I spent every waking minute on CU if I agreed with him. It galls him that he's being out-argued by a Jew.

I don't think your Jewishness is what galls him. Nor do I believe that he believes he's being out argued by you, Jewish or not.

Much as Gator using your service against you dilutes his arguments, your insistence that his arguments are ethnically or religiously driven dilutes your arguments.

gator
06-19-2009, 09:49 AM
I can understand Gator's position on the Liberty. I can understand his position on not giving aid to Israel. What I can not understand is his attack on a US soldier just because he is Jewish. He suspects that Odysseus allegiance is to Israel rather than to the US which he has sworn to protect. I don't think he has any evidence. If he does, I would like to see it; if not, is Gator not breaking the cardinal rule of bashing a soldier? Bashing a country is ok in my opinion; bashing a US soldier on active duty is sick. He could have a thing against officers.:)

I might be a little crazy but I am not filled with hate like Gator is. Thank God for that. Gator, you need professional help; your hatred is driving you nuts.

Is this your new twist on the claim that somebody is anti Semite just because they oppose Israel? You really think you are being cute, don’t you?

First of all you don't understand my position on the Liberty on giving aid to Israel so don't be a fucking liar and claim that you do. You have argued against it too adamantly to make that claim now just to get in another one of your anti Semite comments, which you do whenever you can. You are like this Odysseus character and will not accept my premise that it is immoral and stupid for the US to support a brutal apartheid government like Israel. You resort to anti Semite comments because you can’t effectively argue against my premise that it is unacceptable to support Israel.

I have said several times that I think there are only three groups of people that support Israel:

Jewish American whose religious and ethnic beliefs make them loyal to the Jewish State.

Some fundamental Christians that think they won’t go to Heaven unless they support Israel.

NeoCons that think the job of the US is to be the world’s police and guarantee the security of every country in the world, especially Israel.

There may be a forth group but it is ambiguous and hard to stereotype. Many Americans are dumb ass Sheeple that go along with anything without really thinking about it. For instance, many Americans support Israel but don’t even know about the Liberty incident, the spying or even know that the Israelis kill Christian Palestinians at the same rate they kill Muslim Palestinians. They know very little about what a dirtbag country Israel really is but support it anyway.

Of those three groups the one that I would give a pass on is the Jewish group. I understand where their loyalties lie. To me that is acceptable. I am the same way. I put my religious loyalties ahead of my loyalty to America and I am not ashamed or afraid to admit it.

The problem I have with this shitass Odysseus is that he is dishonest and won’t admit that is his real reason for supporting Israel. He knows that once he goes there all his lame ass excuses for giving Israel a pass on attacking the Liberty and giving them money and claiming that it is in the vital interest of the US to keep them as an ally goes out the window.

He had plenty of opportunity to come clean on it and I offered to give him a pass but he couldn’t be honest about it.

I don’t have any respect for him simply because he is so adamant about supporting Israel, which I think is bad for the US and immoral, and that he has to lie about his reasons.

I also don’t have any respect for him because of his vicious attack on the crewmembers of the USS Liberty and the men that attempted to expose the real facts about the attack. He was so wanting to protect Israel that he called the military people some very shitty names and made comments about their character. I am sorry but I am not going to sit by and watch a dickhead like Odysseus attack our military just to protect a foreign country.

Also, like you he is a shithead for playing the anti Semite card whenever he is getting his ass beat in the discussion due to my significant moral clarity on the subject. That is very dishonest but that is what Israel supporters do. God knows they have nothing else.

He didn’t lose my respect because he is Jewish. That makes no difference to me. He lost my respect because he is an dumbass asshole that is dishonest.

Rockntractor
06-19-2009, 10:04 AM
Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. This promise was lifted recently because of all of Jerry seinfeld's dry humor in his show.

gator
06-19-2009, 10:05 AM
Ex fucking'scuse me idiot?! Who the FUCK asked for his H. O. H. being taken away?!

YOU DUMBFUCK! NO ONE ELSE!

FUCK YOU YOU IGNORANT MOTHER FUCKER.

Do not put words into my mouth and if you want to ban my ass, have the fuck at it!

Excuse me but here is your exact quote:

"If the evil Zionist wanted to sink the USS Liberty, it would be at the bottom the Med".

You very clearly said that the only reason the Liberty was not sunk was because Israel chose not to do it.

That is in opposition to the Medal of Honor citation that said the reason it was not sunk was due to the bravery of the crew and the leadership of Captain McGongle.

You can't have it both ways. Either you were speaking out your ass or the citation was wrong.

Since you are the one that made the claim that indicates the citation is wrong then you should do the right thing and lobby Congress to take away the MOH. We can't have a MOH presented under false pretenses, can we?

lacarnut
06-19-2009, 10:13 AM
Is this your new twist on the claim that somebody is anti Semite just because they oppose of Israel? You really think you are being cute, don’t you?

First of all you don't understand my position on the Liberty on giving aid to Israel so don't be a fucking liar and claim that you do. You have argued against it too adamantly to make that claim now just to get in another one of your anti Semite comments, which you do whenever you can. You are like this Odysseus character and will not accept my premise that it is immoral and stupid for the US to support a brutal apartheid government like Israel. You resort to anti Semite comments because you can’t effectively argue against my premise that it is unacceptable to support Israel.

I have said several times that I think there are only three groups of people that support Israel:

Jewish American whose religious and ethnic beliefs make them loyal to the Jewish State.

Some fundamental Christians that think they won’t go to Heaven unless they support Israel.

NeoCons that think the job of the US is to be the world’s police and guarantee the security of every country in the world, especially Israel.

There may be a forth group but it is ambiguous and hard to stereotype. Many Americans are dumb ass Sheeple that go along with anything without really thinking about it. For instance, many Americans support Israel but don’t even know about the Liberty incident, the spying or even know that the Israelis kill Christian Palestinians at the same rate they kill Muslim Palestinians. They know very little about what a dirtbag country Israel really is but support it anyway.

Of those three groups the one that I would give a pass on is the Jewish group. I understand where their loyalties lie. To me that is acceptable. I am the same way. I put my religious loyalties ahead of my loyalty to America and I am not ashamed or afraid to admit it.

The problem I have with this shitass Odysseus is that he is dishonest and won’t admit that is his real reason for supporting Israel. He knows that once he goes there all his lame ass excuses for giving Israel a pass on attacking the Liberty and giving them money and claiming that it is in the vital interest of the US to keep them as an ally goes out the window.

He had plenty of opportunity to come clean on it and I offered to give him a pass but he couldn’t be honest about it.

I don’t have any respect for him simply because he is so adamant about supporting Israel, which I think is bad for the US and immoral, and that he has to lie about his reasons.

I also don’t have any respect for him because of his vicious attack on the crewmembers of the USS Liberty and the men that attempted to expose the real facts about the attack. He was so wanting to protect Israel that he called the military people some very shitty names and made comments about their character. I am sorry but I am not going to sit by and watch a dickhead like Odysseus attack our military just to protect a foreign country.

Also, like you he is a shithead for playing the anti Semite card whenever he is getting his ass beat in the discussion due to my significant moral clarity on the subject. That is very dishonest but that is what Israel supporters do. God knows they have nothing else.

He didn’t lose my respect because he is Jewish. That makes no difference to me. He lost my respect because he is an dumbass asshole that is dishonest.

Since you offer no proof that Odysseus is not patrotic or does not owe his allegiance to the US, you are the one that has no moral authority. In other words, you are a liar and bat shit crazy at that.

I have already stated, I agree that an investigation and compensation should be started. You are so stupid, you can not get that thru your thick skull. You have your head so far up your ass, you can not see the lilght of day. Get help; you need it to curb your hate. I am not trying to be cute; I am taking up for someone that is serving my country and you are bashing him in a personal way. Shame on you.

Odysseus
06-19-2009, 10:28 AM
I don't think your Jewishness is what galls him. Nor do I believe that he believes he's being out argued by you, Jewish or not.

Much as Gator using your service against you dilutes his arguments, your insistence that his arguments are ethnically or religiously driven dilutes your arguments.

In Gator's own words:


You are a worthless piece of shit because you believe a foreign country that attacked America over the word of our own military including two Medal of Honor awardees and a past Chairman of the Joint Chief of Staff. You do it because you are Jewish and you support the Jewish state rather than your own contry.


As far as your stupid assertion that the extended combined arms attack of the well identified USS Liberty was a “friendly fire” incident in spite of all the evidence that I have posted to the contrary just shows that you have no intention of holding your Israelis buddies accountable. You ignore all the evidence because you do not want to hold the Israelis accountable for anything. You just want them to live well and you don’t care how much American money it cost or how many American lives. You think that way because you are Jewish and the preservation of the Jewish State is more important to you than your own country.


He liked his tour of duty in Iraq because that made the Middle East safer for his beloved Israel.
Since he is Jewish then I understand that mindset.


You have no intentions of admitting that being a Jew causes you to believe the spin and misinformation of the Israeli government over the interest of America do you? In your distorted mind the security of Israel always becomes the top priority regardless of the harm done to America, isn’t it? You are incapable of thinking otherwise, aren't you?


At least Odysseus has a reason. Being Jewish his loyalties lie with the Jewish State instead of America and I can actually understand that mindset. What I can’t understand is the mindset of the NeoCons that will sell out their country in order to gain favor with the pro Israel lobby. I guess the big bucks of the pro Israel lobby talks very loud.

Gator makes it a point to discredit me because I'm Jewish. If that's not antisemitism, what is?


Since you offer no proof that Odysseus is not patrotic or does not owe his allegiance to the US, you are the one that has no moral authority. In other words, you are a liar and bat shit crazy at that.

I have already stated, I agree that an investigation and compensation should be started. You are so stupid, you can not get that thru your thick skull. You have your head so far up your ass, you can not see the lilght of day. Get help; you need it to curb your hate. I am not trying to be cute; I am taking up for someone that is serving my country and you are bashing him in a personal way. Shame on you.

Gator's not capable of shame. Don't sweat it.

gator
06-19-2009, 10:37 AM
I also noticed gator never debunked my debunking of his bullshit debunking.


(If anyone can follow that line of shit from gator...)

If I knew what the hell the hell you were talking about then maybe I could make a comment.

You posted some sorry 2003 opinion piece by a staff writer from an Israeli daily newspaper. The article had no facts in it but was just an opinion piece by a very biased source.

I then did two things, which you mostly ignored.

I first showed you that the source of the opinion was false. The source was Jay Cristol who has been debunked many times. I posted an example of him being debunked. He cited reports and make claims the reports said things that really didn’t happen. Some of those claims were the NSA messages that were cited by Guttman. An historian had actually taken the time to read the reports and noted the discrepancies. I posted a summary of his conclusions.

I then posted a very good article by Ennis that specially addressed the article that you posted. Ennis was aboard the Liberty they day that it was attacked and has a tremendous more knowledge of the attack than some filthy Haaretz staff writer like Nathan Guttman. He pretty put the Haaretz article to rest but you ignored it. The fact that you decided to quote Guttman instead of Ennis shows me where your real loyalties lie. Ennis was a decorated American Naval officer. Guttman is a joke and Israeli apologist.

You are not very good at this. You don’t know how to ask the right questions and you sure as hell don’t have access to the real story of the Liberty. You are randomly going to Google and pulling shit out your ass and expecting to get a gotcha or something. You are a figgin amateur at this and hardly worth anybody’s time to respond.

gator
06-19-2009, 10:47 AM
Since you offer no proof that Odysseus is not patrotic or does not owe his allegiance to the US, you are the one that has no moral authority. In other words, you are a liar and bat shit crazy at that.

I have already stated, I agree that an investigation and compensation should be started. You are so stupid, you can not get that thru your thick skull. You have your head so far up your ass, you can not see the lilght of day. Get help; you need it to curb your hate. I am not trying to be cute; I am taking up for someone that is serving my country and you are bashing him in a personal way. Shame on you.

I have stated my opinon many times why Odysseus is a dickhead. If you don't have the same opinion then I really don't care.

For somebody that agrees with me you sure defend Israel every chance you get, which shows me you are a real loony. At least be up front about your position and stop being an asshole.

Phillygirl
06-19-2009, 10:48 AM
In Gator's own words:











Gator makes it a point to discredit me because I'm Jewish. If that's not antisemitism, what is?




No. Gator assumes that your stance on Israel is because you are Jewish. I don't believe he has proven that point at all. Likewise, I don't believe you have proven the point that he attempts to discredit your position because you are Jewish.

Rebel Yell
06-19-2009, 11:49 AM
No. Gator assumes that your stance on Israel is because you are Jewish. I don't believe he has proven that point at all. Likewise, I don't believe you have proven the point that he attempts to discredit your position because you are Jewish.

It's amazing what people see, when they look past race.

gator
06-19-2009, 11:54 AM
Is that "overwhelming evidence" the same type that proves Global Warming is man made?

Just curious.

This really a pathetic comment. You have must have been taking lessons from that dickhead Odysseys. He once said that the people that are trying to get justice for the crewmembers of the USS Liberty are akin to Elvis slighter believers and UFO believers. Now you are comparing them to environmental wackos. That is really a shitty thing to do. You should ber fucking ashamed of yourself but I have notice from previous threads that you no shame when to Israel, do you?

Some very brave and honorable men have spoken out on wanting to pursue the truth in the Liberty matter. Men like Adm Tomas Moorer, General Raymond Davis (MOH), Capt Ward Boston, and James Ennis, who was the Deck Officer the day the Liberty was attacked. Hardly the same caliber of men that are environmental wackos. Many others, including most of the crewmembers of the Liberty, who are calling for war crimes investigations against Israel

I guess you are taking lesson from Odysseys. Attack the military men that want justice in order to protect Israel. It is really pathetic.

Lars1701a
06-19-2009, 12:19 PM
It's amazing what people see, when they look past race.

I know gator is a fellow redneck and all but anyone with a IQ point can read his hatred of everything Israel. (including Jews)

I think Ody's last few posts point that out.


I wonder what photos gator has of Philly for her to shill for him like she has?

Shannon
06-19-2009, 12:28 PM
I know gator is a fellow redneck and all but anyone with a IQ point can read his hatred of everything Israel. (including Jews)

I think Ody's last few posts point that out.


I wonder what photos gator has of Philly for her to shill for him like she has?

:rolleyes:

Lars1701a
06-19-2009, 12:31 PM
:rolleyes:

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Phillygirl
06-19-2009, 12:34 PM
I know gator is a fellow redneck and all but anyone with a IQ point can read his hatred of everything Israel. (including Jews)

I think Ody's last few posts point that out.


I wonder what photos gator has of Philly for her to shill for him like she has?

Yes, photos, that must be it. It can't possibly be that I find merit in the arguments of both sides and find reverting to cries of racism to be intellectually lazy.

lacarnut
06-19-2009, 12:42 PM
I have stated my opinon many times why Odysseus is a dickhead. If you don't have the same opinion then I really don't care.

For somebody that agrees with me you sure defend Israel every chance you get, which shows me you are a real loony. At least be up front about your position and stop being an asshole.

I am up front:


1. I believe that Obama should open an investigation & the family members of the Liberty are entitled to compensation.
2. I believe we don't need troops all over the world; bring half of them back home. No need for any of them to be in Germany.
3. Cut defense spending to foreign countries but still support Israel's miltary; I think they are our allies. My opinion.
4. Strong arm the Saudis, Kuwait and Iraq into paying for our support and blood for defending their asses.

It all or nothing with you and you are the one that is being an asshole. Not for your position on the Liberty but your pathetic personal attack on a soldier of the US military.

Rebel Yell
06-19-2009, 01:04 PM
I know gator is a fellow redneck and all but anyone with a IQ point can read his hatred of everything Israel. (including Jews)

I guess you missed this post.....:rolleyes:



I have said several times that I think there are only three groups of people that support Israel:

Jewish American whose religious and ethnic beliefs make them loyal to the Jewish State.

Some fundamental Christians that think they won’t go to Heaven unless they support Israel.

NeoCons that think the job of the US is to be the world’s police and guarantee the security of every country in the world, especially Israel.


Of those three groups the one that I would give a pass on is the Jewish group. I understand where their loyalties lie. To me that is acceptable. I am the same way. I put my religious loyalties ahead of my loyalty to America and I am not ashamed or afraid to admit it.

gator
06-19-2009, 01:35 PM
Yes, photos, that must be it.

You know that I do have some photos of you at the CU party in Clearwater a few years ago.

I think he must be referring to the picture in the pool where you were topless, correct? ;)

Phillygirl
06-19-2009, 03:29 PM
You know that I do have some photos of you at the CU party in Clearwater a few years ago.

I think he must be referring to the picture in the pool where you were topless, correct? ;)

Oh, geez, thanks Gator. Now all the cyber stalkers will be claiming to have seen the obese Phillygirl sans top.

:rolleyes:

gator
06-19-2009, 04:01 PM
Oh, geez, thanks Gator. Now all the cyber stalkers will be claiming to have seen the obese Phillygirl sans top.

:rolleyes:

Maybe I should sell the pictures to some of these cyber stalkers. I could then donate the money to the Liberty cewmember's legal fund to bring war crimes charges against Israel. What do you think?

Phillygirl
06-19-2009, 04:06 PM
Maybe I should sell the pictures to some of these cyber stalkers. I could then donate the money to the Liberty cewmember's legal fund to bring war crimes charges against Israel. What do you think?

Oh, geez...just ask me to write a check. Sell nothing!

Teetop
06-19-2009, 05:42 PM
If I knew what the hell the hell you were talking about then maybe I could make a comment.

You posted some sorry 2003 opinion piece by a staff writer from an Israeli daily newspaper. The article had no facts in it but was just an opinion piece by a very biased source.

I then did two things, which you mostly ignored.

I first showed you that the source of the opinion was false. The source was Jay Cristol who has been debunked many times. I posted an example of him being debunked. He cited reports and make claims the reports said things that really didn’t happen. Some of those claims were the NSA messages that were cited by Guttman. An historian had actually taken the time to read the reports and noted the discrepancies. I posted a summary of his conclusions.

I then posted a very good article by Ennis that specially addressed the article that you posted. Ennis was aboard the Liberty they day that it was attacked and has a tremendous more knowledge of the attack than some filthy Haaretz staff writer like Nathan Guttman. He pretty put the Haaretz article to rest but you ignored it. The fact that you decided to quote Guttman instead of Ennis shows me where your real loyalties lie. Ennis was a decorated American Naval officer. Guttman is a joke and Israeli apologist.

You are not very good at this. You don’t know how to ask the right questions and you sure as hell don’t have access to the real story of the Liberty. You are randomly going to Google and pulling shit out your ass and expecting to get a gotcha or something. You are a figgin amateur at this and hardly worth anybody’s time to respond.

You posted an opinion piece as well, pissant. You must really feel really great with your butt-buddy who started this thread. I wonder who is the male in your relationship?

Attack the messenger, pissant, not reading the message at all. You discount anything that may, or may not, come from an Israeli source. You are a ignorant pissant...

Teetop
06-19-2009, 05:47 PM
No. Gator assumes that your stance on Israel is because you are Jewish. I don't believe he has proven that point at all. Likewise, I don't believe you have proven the point that he attempts to discredit your position because you are Jewish.

gator/pissant likes to try to run ruff-shod over anyone who might disagree with him. He thinks he knows all and if you disagree, you're just ignorant or a Israeli lover. Personally, I think either gator/pissant lost someone close to him on the UUS Liberty or just hates Jooooos.

Phillygirl
06-19-2009, 05:53 PM
gator/pissant likes to try to run ruff-shod over anyone who might disagree with him. He thinks he knows all and if you disagree, you're just ignorant or a Israeli lover. Personally, I think either gator/pissant lost someone close to him on the UUS Liberty or just hates Jooooos.

Gator's not the only one on here that does that. He's just the only one that takes flak for it.

Lars1701a
06-19-2009, 05:54 PM
These threads all follow the same pattern, for some reason (other then USS Liberty) Gator has a bug up his ass about Israel maybe someone Jewish kicked his ass?

What pisses me off more is that Gator hates Israel but backs Arabs who have done more destruction against America then the Jews have ever done.:confused::confused:

gator
06-19-2009, 06:00 PM
gator/pissant likes to try to run ruff-shod over anyone who might disagree with him. He thinks he knows all and if you disagree, you're just ignorant or a Israeli lover. Personally, I think either gator/pissant lost someone close to him on the UUS Liberty or just hates Jooooos.

I sure as hell know more about the Liberty incident than you do. If you would bother to do a little research instead of pulling a silly opinion piece out of Haaretz then maybe you would know a little more.

Every American lost someone close to them on the Liberty. Every service member that joins the military is a son or daughter of America. When a filthy foreign country kills them I do take it a little personally. I really take it personally when they were doing the same job as I did in the service.

It is a shame that stupid Americans like you and Odysseys and others have become apologist for the goddamn Israelis. You have such little regards for the men that gave their lives for their country that you will take the side of a filthy two bit Middle East country.

Go do some real research. If after you look at the real facts and you still think the goddamn Israelis mistaken a well identified American warship in International waters for a 60 year old horse transport that was half the size then we will talk. Until then you can kiss my redneck ass you ignorant SOB.

Odysseus
06-19-2009, 06:39 PM
No. Gator assumes that your stance on Israel is because you are Jewish. I don't believe he has proven that point at all. Likewise, I don't believe you have proven the point that he attempts to discredit your position because you are Jewish.
It's one thing to think that as a Jew, I might sympathize with Israel. But Gator states, not implies, but states, that because I am a Jew, I am disloyal to America and put Israel before my country and my oath. Read the quotes again:


You think that way because you are Jewish and the preservation of the Jewish State is more important to you than your own country.

He liked his tour of duty in Iraq because that made the Middle East safer for his beloved Israel.
Since he is Jewish then I understand that mindset.

You have no intentions of admitting that being a Jew causes you to believe the spin and misinformation of the Israeli government over the interest of America do you? In your distorted mind the security of Israel always becomes the top priority regardless of the harm done to America, isn’t it? You are incapable of thinking otherwise, aren't you?

At least Odysseus has a reason. Being Jewish his loyalties lie with the Jewish State instead of America and I can actually understand that mindset. What I can’t understand is the mindset of the NeoCons that will sell out their country in order to gain favor with the pro Israel lobby. I guess the big bucks of the pro Israel lobby talks very loud.
He's not simply saying that as a Jew, I'm supportive of Israel (although more than a few American Jews aren't), he's accusing me of putting Israeli interest before American interests and of supporting attacks against the United States because I am a Jew. What part of that isn't base bigotry?

This really a pathetic comment. You have must have been taking lessons from that dickhead Odysseys. He once said that the people that are trying to get justice for the crewmembers of the USS Liberty are akin to Elvis slighter believers and UFO believers. Now you are comparing them to environmental wackos. That is really a shitty thing to do. You should ber fucking ashamed of yourself but I have notice from previous threads that you no shame when to Israel, do you?.
Yeah, you'd never do anything like that, would you? You'd never insult the honor, patriotism or loyalty of Americans who don't believe your BS, right? No, saying that you're a conspiracy nut is evil, but calling me a traitor is fine and dandy. What color is the sky in your world?


Some very brave and honorable men have spoken out on wanting to pursue the truth in the Liberty matter. Men like Adm Tomas Moorer, General Raymond Davis (MOH), Capt Ward Boston, and James Ennis, who was the Deck Officer the day the Liberty was attacked. Hardly the same caliber of men that are environmental wackos. Many others, including most of the crewmembers of the Liberty, who are calling for war crimes investigations against Israel

I guess you are taking lesson from Odysseys. Attack the military men that want justice in order to protect Israel. It is really pathetic.
And some very brave and honorable men have said that the incident was not deliberate, including the entire Naval Board of Inquiry, Admiral McCain and a host of others who you are accusing of treacherous conduct. Why is their honor of less value than those who demand blood?

Gator's not the only one on here that does that. He's just the only one that takes flak for it.
Who else does that? Who else goes on for whole posts that are nothing but strings of obscenties with occasional breaks for punctuation?

I sure as hell know more about the Liberty incident than you do. If you would bother to do a little research instead of pulling a silly opinion piece out of Haaretz then maybe you would know a little more.

Every American lost someone close to them on the Liberty. Every service member that joins the military is a son or daughter of America. When a filthy foreign country kills them I do take it a little personally. I really take it personally when they were doing the same job as I did in the service.
Yeah? I'm a son of America, or at least I was until you decided that being a Jew made me an Israeli first.

It is a shame that stupid Americans like you and Odysseys and others have become apologist for the goddamn Israelis. You have such little regards for the men that gave their lives for their country that you will take the side of a filthy two bit Middle East country.

Go do some real research. If after you look at the real facts and you still think the goddamn Israelis mistaken a well identified American warship in International waters for a 60 year old horse transport that was half the size then we will talk. Until then you can kiss my redneck you ignorant SOB.
What is a shame is that you insist on turning a tragic case of friendly fire into a despicable vendetta against an ally and that you are so blinded by hate that you have driven off dozens of members of CU because they couldn't stand your constant vitriolic BS.

patriot45
06-19-2009, 06:54 PM
You posted an opinion piece as well, pissant. You must really feel really great with your butt-buddy who started this thread. I wonder who is the male in your relationship?

Attack the messenger, pissant, not reading the message at all. You discount anything that may, or may not, come from an Israeli source. You are a ignorant pissant...

Whoa! I guess you forgot the original op. A new book just came out and the new book gets down and dirty with the liars who helped with the cover up.
Why you geniouses like to disreespect the sailors who where actually there is beyond me. You don't believe MOH winners, but you will believe any story that goes against the eye witnesses.:confused:

I started this thread to show its not just a handfull of people who think this injustice is deplorable. And it shows that Gator is right to keep this at the forefront.

gator
06-19-2009, 06:57 PM
I have always wondered why Americans have become apologist for Israel.

I suspect that if a Middle East country like Iran, Syrian, Egypt etc were to attack an Israelis ship and kill 34 Israelis and wounded 170 more the pro Israeli faction in the US would go bonkers. They would be screaming their heads off for Arab blood.

They would want for Israel to nuke everybody. They would want to send the US Army Airborne, Marines, Navy and Air Force to kick the Arab ass. They would want to triple US aid to Israel. They would go out and buy Israelis war bonds. There would be a national payer vigil. Every politician in America wanting to suck on the tit of the pro Israel lobby would be giving speeches and promising money and American lives to avenge the deaths of the Israelis.

If the attacking country said it was an accident and they had mistaken the Israeli ship for a horse transport the cries of “liar” would be deafening. There would be commercials on TV requesting that money be sent to Israel. Everybody would be mortified and calling for blood.

It is too bad that too many Americans have become apologists for Israel. In fact it is more than too bad. It is damn right pathetic.

I am glad I post on an Internet discussion forum. I get to see how stupid people really are. I don’t normally get to see that kind of world class stupidity in my daily life. Defending a scumbag country like Israel is absolutely the dumbest and immoral thing I have ever seen.

It was actually refreshing to see the one CUer that lives just down the road from me has developed moral clarity on this issue. It makes me think there is a little hope.

Odysseus
06-19-2009, 07:56 PM
I have always wondered why Americans have become apologist for Israel.

I suspect that if a Middle East country like Iran, Syrian, Egypt etc were to attack an Israelis ship and kill 34 Israelis and wounded 170 more the pro Israeli faction in the US would go bonkers. They would be screaming their heads off for Arab blood.
They would want for Israel to nuke everybody. They would want to send the US Army Airborne, Marines, Navy and Air Force to kick the Arab ass. They would want to triple US aid to Israel. They would go out and buy Israelis war bonds. There would be a national payer vigil. Every politician in America wanting to suck on the tit of the pro Israel lobby would be giving speeches and promising money and American lives to avenge the deaths of the Israelis.
So, if an Arab group like, say... Hamas or Hezbollah were to fire rockets into Israel over the course of several years, killing more than 34 people, you'd expect us to go bonkers and demand Arab blood and want Israel to nuke Lebanon and Gaza? It's a good thing that Hamas and Hezbollah haven't done anything like that. Oh, wait, they have! And Israel didn't nuke them, and nobody here called for it. Wrong again, Gator.


If the attacking country said it was an accident and they had mistaken the Israeli ship for a horse transport the cries of “liar” would be deafening. There would be commercials on TV requesting that money be sent to Israel. Everybody would be mortified and calling for blood.
Actually, if an Arab power claimed that it had attacked an Israeli vessel by accident, I'd believe it. They usually brag when they do it deliberately.


It is too bad that too many Americans have become apologists for Israel. In fact it is more than too bad. It is damn right pathetic.
Almost as pathetic as a bigot hiding his hatred of Jews behind a "principled" stance over a forty year old friendly fire incident.


I am glad I post on an Internet discussion forum. I get to see how stupid people really are. I don’t normally get to see that kind of world class stupidity in my daily life. Defending a scumbag country like Israel is absolutely the dumbest and immoral thing I have ever seen.
I guess that you don't own a mirror.


It was actually refreshing to see the one CUer that lives just down the road from me has developed moral clarity on this issue. It makes me think there is a little hope.

If I lived down the road from a heavily armed bigot who foams at the mouth whenever Israel is mentioned, I might moderate what I say too, at least if I posted where my crazy neighbor could see it.

Sonnabend
06-19-2009, 08:50 PM
Gator

Turn the computer off and go for a walk. Or go shopping.

Your assertion that Odysseus being Jewish means his loyalties lie towards Israel is so much bullshit and you know it. Enough already, nu?

Odysseus
06-19-2009, 09:12 PM
Gator

Turn the computer off and go for a walk. Or go shopping.

Your assertion that Odysseus being Jewish means his loyalties lie towards Israel is so much bullshit and you know it. Enough already, nu?

Yes, but he can't win the argument any other way, so he shrieks that I'm a Jew and therefore can't be trusted, then shrieks that this isn't antisemitism when he's called on it. He wants to have it both ways, but ultimately, he's only happy if he wins the argument, and that's not going to happen.

Sonnabend
06-19-2009, 10:51 PM
He's more of a yenta than Philly ever was :D

Teetop
06-19-2009, 11:06 PM
Yes, but he can't win the argument any other way, so he shrieks that I'm a Jew and therefore can't be trusted, then shrieks that this isn't antisemitism when he's called on it. He wants to have it both ways, but ultimately, he's only happy if he wins the argument, and that's not going to happen.

Why should he? He would rather stand side-by-side with the bombers of Beirut in 1983 (http://www.usatoday.com/news/military/2008-10-15-beirut-barracks_N.htm). An effing Arab can do no wrong, in the eyes of fudge-packer.


In 2003, a federal judge presiding over a civil suit by Marine survivors and relatives declared Iran liable for the Beirut bombing and later awarded $2.7 billion in damages. Iran did not respond to the suit and has paid nothing.

Many survivors bear psychological scars, in part because of the incident's stigma.

"The Marine Corps considers this a black eye," says Col. Chuck Dallachie, who was injured in the bombing and today is commander of the Marine base located in Quantico, Va.

"There's the impression we were caught with our pants down."


I met these brave men when I was in Germany in 1983-1984. I took an oath to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States. Have you, Fudge-packer?

I met these brave men and tried to make thier lives better, maybe for only a moment, but I tried...

WTF have you done, except act like an ass and show your ass on CU. You and patriot can pack all the fudge you want, or as you call it.... "A like minded friend (down the Hersey highway?) road...

:rolleyes:

If you're what the NSA has to offer, we're in fuckin trouble.

Whatever, your mind is made up and so is mine. I would rather be behind the Israelis than the Arabs....


You lose.

Teetop
06-19-2009, 11:14 PM
Yes, but he can't win the argument any other way, so he shrieks that I'm a Jew and therefore can't be trusted, then shrieks that this isn't antisemitism when he's called on it. He wants to have it both ways, but ultimately, he's only happy if he wins the argument, and that's not going to happen.

Well, shit a brick! I'm Methodist. I guess I'm doomed to hell in fudge-packer's eyes also. :rolleyes:

Shannon
06-19-2009, 11:23 PM
I really think the whole "fudge packers" thing is uncalled for. Patriot started a thread about something that Gator has always been very vocal about. People obviously have differing opinions on the subject. I've learned alot reading these threads over the years. Just because Pat has a different opinion than you does not make him a "fudge packer".

gator
06-19-2009, 11:23 PM
These threads all follow the same pattern, for some reason (other then USS Liberty) Gator has a bug up his ass about Israel maybe someone Jewish kicked his ass?

What pisses me off more is that Gator hates Israel but backs Arabs who have done more destruction against America then the Jews have ever done.:confused::confused:

You have the pattern wrong. However, I will correct you.

A discussion comes up about the crimes and treachery of the Israelis.

The shithead Israelis supporters jump on the bandwagon and claim that the Israelis can do no wrong, and by the way send them more money.

I see the bullshit and correct the misconceptions and spread a little moral clarity.

I get called all kinds of anti Semitic bullshit names because nobody can really give a good answer to my moral clarity.

That moron Odysseys writes volumes of material explaining that the Israelis are peachy keen and we should send them more money and we should all die to protect Israel and Iam a Nazi meannie for questioning Israel. His pro Israel posses of pussies jump in to support him, usually with dumbass statements. I question why he is serving in the military but can spend most of day sitting on his fat ass posting on the Internet. The only answer I get is that he is busy.

It goes on and on.

I will catch you pathetic pieces of Isreal loving pussies on another discussion sometime in the future. I have a busy weekend planned and a busy few weeks after that.

Teetop
06-19-2009, 11:30 PM
I really think the whole "fudge packers" thing is uncalled for. Patriot started a thread about something that Gator has always been very vocal about. People obviously have differing opinions on the subject. I've learned alot reading these threads over the years. Just because Pat has a different opinion than you does not make him a "fudge packer".

Excuse me? When someone's loyalty has come under scrutiny by being Jewish, It's appropriate.

edit to add; He said it, I didn't.

Teetop
06-19-2009, 11:35 PM
You have the pattern wrong. However, I will correct you.

A discussion comes up about the crimes and treachery of the Israelis.

The shithead Israelis supporters jump on the bandwagon and claim that the Israelis can do no wrong, and by the way send them more money.

I see the bullshit and correct the misconceptions and spread a little moral clarity.

I get called all kinds of anti Semitic bullshit names because nobody can really give a good answer to my moral clarity.

That moron Odysseys writes volumes of material explaining that the Israelis are peachy keen and we should send them more money and we should all die to protect Israel and Iam a Nazi meannie for questioning Israel. His pro Israel posses of pussies jump in to support him, usually with dumbass statements. I question why he is serving in the military but can spend most of day sitting on his fat ass posting on the Internet. The only answer I get is that he is busy.

It goes on and on.

I will catch you pathetic pieces of Isreal loving pussies on another discussion sometime in the future. I have a busy weekend planned and a busy few weeks after that.

Just say it fudge-packer. You want all Israeli's dead.

Another words, you got your ass kicked, and you and your butt-buddy are taking time off for a long retreat?

BTW, Ody never said send the Israeli's more money, did he?


Please correct me, if I'm wrong. :rolleyes:

Pull more shit ottya ass....

patriot45
06-19-2009, 11:37 PM
I really think the whole "fudge packers" thing is uncalled for. Patriot started a thread about something that Gator has always been very vocal about. People obviously have differing opinions on the subject. I've learned alot reading these threads over the years. Just because Pat has a different opinion than you does not make him a "fudge packer".

That is a mark of losing or can't win an arguement. I am not as commited to the cause as Gator, but I do think he is right. If I state my case and others devolve into the gutter, too bad.
I happen to side with the American servicemen who where there and the patriots who have painstakingly researched this. You do know all it would have taken was an apology way back when to stop this.

Teetop
06-19-2009, 11:45 PM
That is a mark of losing or can't win an arguement. I am not as commited to the cause as Gator, but I do think he is right. If I state my case and others devolve into the gutter, too bad.
I happen to side with the American servicemen who where there and the patriots who have painstakingly researched this. You do know all it would have taken was an apology way back when to stop this.

You mean the way fudge-packer has done it for 16 pages?


I agree! :)

And you agree that Arabs are without fault in anything. The way your butt-buddy thinks?


Talk...

djones520
06-19-2009, 11:45 PM
That is a mark of losing or can't win an arguement. I am not as commited to the cause as Gator, but I do think he is right. If I state my case and others devolve into the gutter, too bad.
I happen to side with the American servicemen who where there and the patriots who have painstakingly researched this. You do know all it would have taken was an apology way back when to stop this.

Read any of Gator's "arguments" lately?

For the 2nd bolded part.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/liberty.html


Israel apologized for the tragedy immediately and offered on June 9 to compensate the victims.

Apologized that day, and offered reperations the next day. So you going to let it go now?

patriot45
06-19-2009, 11:48 PM
You mean the way fudge-packer has done it for 16 pages?


I agree! :)

No genious, if the Israelis would have apologized. You do have a one tracked mind.

Teetop
06-19-2009, 11:51 PM
That is a mark of losing or can't win an arguement. I am not as commited to the cause as Gator, but I do think he is right. If I state my case and others devolve into the gutter, too bad.
I happen to side with the American servicemen who where there and the patriots who have painstakingly researched this. You do know all it would have taken was an apology way back when to stop this.

The state of Israel apologized, they paid compensation, quit lying. It's documented. Get your head out of fudge-packer's ass.

Teetop
06-19-2009, 11:56 PM
No genious, if the Israelis would have apologized. You do have a one tracked mind.

Read fuck-wit. I can tell you're the "female" in this relationship...


An Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman, Mark Regev, called the attack on the Liberty "a tragic and terrible accident, a case of mistaken identity, for which Israel has officially apologized." Israel also paid reparations of $6.7 million to the injured survivors and the families of those killed in the attack, and another $6 million for the loss of the Liberty itself. (http://www.chicagotribune.com/services/newspaper/printedition/tuesday/chi-liberty_tuesoct02,0,1050179.story)

djones520
06-20-2009, 12:00 AM
Then you've got the fact that the Israeli's notified the US Embassy as soon as they realized their error. Helped with the recovery. Flew US officials by helicoptor to the Liberty. And all in all did everything they could to right the wrong they made.

We all know Gator's nuts in the head, but to a sane person does that sound like the actions of a malicious party?

Teetop
06-20-2009, 12:00 AM
Read any of Gator's "arguments" lately?

For the 2nd bolded part.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/liberty.html



Apologized that day, and offered reperations the next day. So you going to let it go now?

No....

It's a Zionist URL!

Teetop
06-20-2009, 12:01 AM
Then you've got the fact that the Israeli's notified the US Embassy as soon as they realized their error. Helped with the recovery. Flew US officials by helicoptor to the Liberty. And all in all did everything they could to right the wrong they made.

We all know Gator's nuts in the head, but to a sane person does that sound like the actions of a malicious party?

no.

Teetop
06-20-2009, 12:55 AM
Fudge-packer and SnObama..

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_L6pDyjqqsvY/SjrBrZ1SbNI/AAAAAAAAcNA/nBTqTSe-Omg/s400/dry+bones+3+am.jpg

RobJohnson
06-20-2009, 01:39 AM
I've never seen the threads or quotes people are discussing here that indicate Gator has made anti-Semitic remarks. Until I see them I will not believe them. If I do see them, then I will. I have not read any such remarks by Gator so I'll go with what is my experience and what is demonstrable.

I am very troubled by the attack on the Liberty and the Israeli explanation as to what happened. I do not believe the Israeli response and think it was inadequate. I am more inclined to believe the sailors on the Liberty than I am to believe politicians on the Israeli or the US side.

The sailors on the Liberty saw what they saw and it was first hand.

And as far as it being many years ago and us being willing to forgive the Israelis I have two things to say:

1. Israelis have and will continue to pursue Nazi war criminals until they are all long dead. They don't make much of a case for forgive and forget.

2. The first step in forgiveness, if I remember correctly, is called confession. Until they come clean 'forgiveness' is premature.

I support Israel as an ally in the middle east. That does not mean that I necessarily support everything Israel does.

Very well said.

RobJohnson
06-20-2009, 01:42 AM
American business, you wouldn't understand.

:D

WatersEdge
06-20-2009, 02:27 AM
Huh?

What does that article prove?

Just what I thought..............................NOTHING.

People love to wallow in some dreampt-up complicity when they are saddened by some awful tragedy. The Israeli's would have NEVER attacked a U.S. ship, knowingly.

djones520
06-20-2009, 04:27 AM
Ok, for those who support the theory that this was an intended attack by Israel, I have a few questions for you.

First off, if the Israeli government had condoned these attacks, then why where the aircraft improperly equipped for the job? The Mirage III Aircraft had their 30mm cannons, and maybe rockets (the pilot of one of the Mirages stated he only had his guns). The Deysault aircraft that attacked in the 2nd wave where carrying Napalm bombs.

The Liberty was a spy ship. It wasn't carrying large stores of ammunition, so none of the weapons employed by the aircraft had any reasonable hope of sinking the ship. This was a large ship manned by a professional military crew. No mission planner in their right mind would have sent those aircraft in so lightly armed. Had this been a concerted effort to sink the ship, then it would have been prudent to equip the aircraft with bombs or anti-ship missiles.

So explain how a military force that in 6 days whupped the shit out of 4 attacking countries, could have planned an operation as sensitive as this, and done such a poor job in doing it?

I'm not even going to touch on the issue with the Torpedo boats. They did not fire on the Liberty until after the Liberty had fired apon them (an accident by all accounts). They where attempting to contact the Liberty when a machine gunner at the front of the ship misunderstood an order and opened fire on the lead torpedo boat.

Second question. If this had been an intentional attack, then explain the Israeli response to it. Within 2 hours of the attack the Israeli's had informed the US Government of the attack, had offered to transport US officials from the embassy to ship, and had offered aid to the ship. This begs the question, who purposefully attempts to sink a ship and then immediately turns around and offers whatever aid they can in saving it and it's crew?


So, can you please explain those two items? Explain why someone would plan such a sensitive attack, and prepare for it so poorely, and then explain why they immediately turned around and offered any aid they could to correct the situation.

gator
06-20-2009, 10:18 AM
Ok, for those who support the theory that this was an intended attack by Israel, I have a few questions for you.

First off, if the Israeli government had condoned these attacks, then why where the aircraft improperly equipped for the job? The Mirage III Aircraft had their 30mm cannons, and maybe rockets (the pilot of one of the Mirages stated he only had his guns). The Deysault aircraft that attacked in the 2nd wave where carrying Napalm bombs.

The Liberty was a spy ship. It wasn't carrying large stores of ammunition, so none of the weapons employed by the aircraft had any reasonable hope of sinking the ship. This was a large ship manned by a professional military crew. No mission planner in their right mind would have sent those aircraft in so lightly armed. Had this been a concerted effort to sink the ship, then it would have been prudent to equip the aircraft with bombs or anti-ship missiles.

So explain how a military force that in 6 days whupped the shit out of 4 attacking countries, could have planned an operation as sensitive as this, and done such a poor job in doing it?

I'm not even going to touch on the issue with the Torpedo boats. They did not fire on the Liberty until after the Liberty had fired apon them (an accident by all accounts). They where attempting to contact the Liberty when a machine gunner at the front of the ship misunderstood an order and opened fire on the lead torpedo boat.

Second question. If this had been an intentional attack, then explain the Israeli response to it. Within 2 hours of the attack the Israeli's had informed the US Government of the attack, had offered to transport US officials from the embassy to ship, and had offered aid to the ship. This begs the question, who purposefully attempts to sink a ship and then immediately turns around and offers whatever aid they can in saving it and it's crew?


So, can you please explain those two items? Explain why someone would plan such a sensitive attack, and prepare for it so poorely, and then explain why they immediately turned around and offered any aid they could to correct the situation.

First of all your premise that it was some kind of an accident is blatantly wrong when you look at the mountain of compelling evidence that they did it on purpose. Evidence that I and others have posted in great detail on other occasions. Everything from the notice given by the Americans to the Israelis a few days before the attack that the Liberty would be nearby to the confessions of the Israelis pilot who said he very clearly was ordered to attack the Liberty. There were also flyovers of the Israelis in the two days prior to the attack and even the morning of the attack.

The ship was a well identified American warship. With its antenna array, .50 caliber machine guns, the ship hull designation and the American flag it came nowhere looking like the 60 year old horse transport the Israelis claim they were attacking. The horse transport was half the size of the Liberty and had been in dock for a year. The Israeli lovers claim that the Israelis have the best intelligence in the world but can’t tell the difference between a docked horse transport and an American warship.

During the attack the crew clearly identified themselves as American through radio and ship signals. At another time I posted the account of the attack by Jack Ennis, who was the Bridge Officer during the attack. He clearly says that the Israelis knew who they were attacking and states the attempts at communication. I am not going to take the time to repost it because you have your head in your ass about this and will believe your buddies in Israel over an American Naval Officer who actually was involved in the attack.

Even though it is obvious you have no intention of wanting to know the truth in this matter I will answer your stupid questions.

Israeli did not want to go to war with America. They had a strong pro Israel lobby in the US and knew they could influence policy. Their intention was to take out the Liberty, not get into a war with the US. I posted Adm Moorer’s theory on why the Israelis attacked the Liberty in another post on this thread. You already ignored it is no need for me to repost it.

As soon as the attack was over and the goddamn Israelis understood that LBJ had chose not counter attack so they moved to do damage control. The best way to extract themselves from the crisis was to claim it was an accident. No harm, no foul, correct? All of the bullshit after the attack of issuing statements and offering restitution and everything else was just to out with the least amount of damage so the pro Israel lobby in America could do damage control. It worked very well. The Israelis got rid of the Liberty and little shits like you are still giving them a pass 42 years later.

As far as your stupid claim that they were not equipped to do the job then why did the fucking Israelis claim they out to sink another ship? If you take the Israeli explanation then they were sent to sink a ship so why you are complaining about their armaments is beyond me.

It is always laughable to hear claims that if the Israelis really wanted to sink the Liberty they could have but yet the Captain of the Liberty received a Congressional Medal of Honor for his heroic efforts in keeping the ship afloat.

How about getting your head out of your Israeli loving ass for a minute and actually do a little research? It is pathetic when shits like you take the side of a country that attacked our country. It is really pathetic. I guess the lure of the Israelis is something you can’t resist, can you? How about taking the side of America for a change?

I am out of here for the weekend.

lacarnut
06-20-2009, 10:23 AM
Ok, for those who support the theory that this was an intended attack by Israel, I have a few questions for you.

First off, if the Israeli government had condoned these attacks, then why where the aircraft improperly equipped for the job? The Mirage III Aircraft had their 30mm cannons, and maybe rockets (the pilot of one of the Mirages stated he only had his guns). The Deysault aircraft that attacked in the 2nd wave where carrying Napalm bombs.

The Liberty was a spy ship. It wasn't carrying large stores of ammunition, so none of the weapons employed by the aircraft had any reasonable hope of sinking the ship. This was a large ship manned by a professional military crew. No mission planner in their right mind would have sent those aircraft in so lightly armed. Had this been a concerted effort to sink the ship, then it would have been prudent to equip the aircraft with bombs or anti-ship missiles.

So explain how a military force that in 6 days whupped the shit out of 4 attacking countries, could have planned an operation as sensitive as this, and done such a poor job in doing it?

I'm not even going to touch on the issue with the Torpedo boats. They did not fire on the Liberty until after the Liberty had fired apon them (an accident by all accounts). They where attempting to contact the Liberty when a machine gunner at the front of the ship misunderstood an order and opened fire on the lead torpedo boat.

Second question. If this had been an intentional attack, then explain the Israeli response to it. Within 2 hours of the attack the Israeli's had informed the US Government of the attack, had offered to transport US officials from the embassy to ship, and had offered aid to the ship. This begs the question, who purposefully attempts to sink a ship and then immediately turns around and offers whatever aid they can in saving it and it's crew?


So, can you please explain those two items? Explain why someone would plan such a sensitive attack, and prepare for it so poorely, and then explain why they immediately turned around and offered any aid they could to correct the situation.

Plausible questions. I would assume that some dickhead that was sitting in an comfy office gave the orders to attack the Liberty. That sure as hell was how the war was fought in V.N. Once again Robert McNamara was involved. That piece of shit was responsible for thousands of lives lost. Gator does not want to talk about that incompetent loon.

SarasotaRepub
06-20-2009, 01:24 PM
How about getting your head out of your Israeli loving ass for a minute and actually do a little research? It is pathetic when shits like you take the side of a country that attacked our country. It is really pathetic. I guess the lure of the Israelis is something you can’t resist, can you? How about taking the side of America for a change?

I am out of here for the weekend.

How about answering people without the insults right away? Maybe you need a
timeout to cool off a bit there...:p

Odysseus
06-20-2009, 05:21 PM
You have the pattern wrong. However, I will correct you.

A discussion comes up about the crimes and treachery of the Israelis.

The shithead Israelis supporters jump on the bandwagon and claim that the Israelis can do no wrong, and by the way send them more money.

I see the bullshit and correct the misconceptions and spread a little moral clarity.

I get called all kinds of anti Semitic bullshit names because nobody can really give a good answer to my moral clarity.

That moron Odysseys writes volumes of material explaining that the Israelis are peachy keen and we should send them more money and we should all die to protect Israel and Iam a Nazi meannie for questioning Israel. His pro Israel posses of pussies jump in to support him, usually with dumbass statements. I question why he is serving in the military but can spend most of day sitting on his fat ass posting on the Internet. The only answer I get is that he is busy.

It goes on and on.

I will catch you pathetic pieces of Isreal loving pussies on another discussion sometime in the future. I have a busy weekend planned and a busy few weeks after that.
No, the pattern is:

Somebody posts something that may or may not have anything to do with Israel (Missile defense for Poland, unemployment hitting 5.5%, etc.)
You chime in that the problem is US support of Israel and how we should retreat to our borders and the Hell with the rest of the world.
You get spanked on the facts
You claim that this is already settled but provide no evidence of your previous "victories" and insult anyone who disagrees with you as a traitor to America and an Israel lover with a bunch of scatalogical idiocies and vicious personal slurs, including the claim that Jews are incapable of loyalty to America first .
You are called on this blatant antisemitism, and begin screaming about how you're the injured party. You refuse to answer questions but claim that you've already done so, or that you don't have to. Then you go back to the namecalling.



First of all your premise that it was some kind of an accident is blatantly wrong when you look at the mountain of compelling evidence that they did it on purpose. Evidence that I and others have posted in great detail on other occasions. Everything from the notice given by the Americans to the Israelis a few days before the attack that the Liberty would be nearby to the confessions of the Israelis pilot who said he very clearly was ordered to attack the Liberty. There were also flyovers of the Israelis in the two days prior to the attack and even the morning of the attack.

Yeah, about that... It turns out that nobody actually knew what the ship was. Even Ennes stated that the USS Saratoga, operating near Crete, referred to the Liberty as the USNS Liberty, a civilian-manned contract ship (it's in his book). Look at it from the point of view of the combatants. A slow moving, unidentified ship approaches the war zone on a route that passes very close to (and could have originated from) Port Said, Egypt. Nobody knew the identity and function of this mystery ship, and that includes some US naval authorities in the Mediterranean. You simply assume that the overflights made the postive identification of the Liberty as a US ship because you want to.


The ship was a well identified American warship. With its antenna array, .50 caliber machine guns, the ship hull designation and the American flag it came nowhere looking like the 60 year old horse transport the Israelis claim they were attacking. The horse transport was half the size of the Liberty and had been in dock for a year. The Israeli lovers claim that the Israelis have the best intelligence in the world but can’t tell the difference between a docked horse transport and an American warship.
So, what you're saying is that the USS Liberty was so distinctive that no one could have mistaken her for any other vessel? Under any circumstances? That a competent pilot would have made the observation? Okay, that's an easy thing to determine. By simply looking at the record of naval blue on blue contacts, we can determine if this is the case.

1939

10 September - British submarine HMS Triton sank another British submarine, HMS Oxley, mistaking it for a German U-boat and having received no responses to challenges. Oxley was the first Royal Navy vessel to be sunk and also the first vessel to be sunk by a British vessel in the war, killing 52 with only two survivors.


1940

19 February - Operation Wikinger: German destroyer sunk by Luftwaffe bombs, another sunk by mines during confusion


1941

Fleet Air Arm torpedo attack on HMS Sheffield during the hunt for the German battleship Bismarck


1942

Polish submarine ORP Jastrząb was mistakenly sunk by British destroyer HMS St Albans and minesweeper HMS Seagull. She was attacked with depth charges and made to surface, there she was strafed with the loss of five crew and six injured, including the commander, despite yellow recognition smoke candles. The ship was damaged and had to be scuttled.
Italian submarine Alagi sank Italian destroyer Antoniotto Usodimare, 8 June 1942
Damage to the light cruiser USS Atlanta by the cruiser USS San Francisco.


1943

General Omar Bradley recalled that his column was attacked by American A-36s in Sicily. The tanks lit yellow smoke flares to identify themselves to their own aircraft, but the attacks continued, so the tanks were forced to fire and downed an aircraft. The parachuting pilot was brought before Bradley. 'You stupid sonofabitch!' Bradley fumed. 'Didn't you see our yellow recognition signals?' The pilot replied 'Oh, is that what that was?' (not that this is a naval encounter, but even then, the signal was misunderstood by a pilot of the same army who presumably spoke the same language).
Sinking of the submarine Surcouf was initially attributed to a collision with the U.S. freighter Thompson Lykes, but a later report stated that the Surcouf was mistaken for a U-boat and destroyed by U.S. planes. Historians differ on which account is true.
Sinking of the submarine USS Dorado by U.S. planes. This sinking is also disputed.[citation needed]
Likely sinking of the submarine USS Seawolf by destroyer escort USS Richard M. Rowell[citation needed]


1944
British flotilla attacked by RAF Hawker Typhoons, off Cap d'Antifer, Le Havre. HMS Britomart and HMS Hussar sunk. HMS Salamander damaged beyond repair and scrapped. HMS Jason escaped major damage.

1945

Near damage of the battleship USS Iowa (with President Franklin D. Roosevelt aboard) by the destroyer USS William D. Porter. This incident led to the "Willie D." being greeted thereafter with the hail, "Don’t shoot, we’re Republicans!"
Cap Arcona incident - Although it did not involve troops in combat, this incident has been referred to as "the worst friendly-fire incident in history"[20] On May 3, 1945, the three ships Cap Arcona, Thielbek, and the SS Deutschland in Lubeck Harbour were sunk in four separate, but synchronized attacks with bombs, rockets, and cannons by the Royal Air Force, resulting in the death of over 7,000 Jewish concentration camp survivors and Russian prisoners of war, along with POWs from several other allies. The ships were all clearly marked with white and red crosses and flying white flags with the exception of the SS Deutschland, which had only white crosses marked on one side of its funnels. The British pilots were unaware that these ships carried POW's and concentration camp survivors, although British documents were released in the 1970s that state the Swedish government had informed the RAF command of the risk prior to the attack.


Vietnam War
8,000 friendly fire incidents have been estimated for the Vietnam War; one was the inspiration for the book and film Friendly Fire. Among those, the naval incidents were:


USCGC Point Welcome was attacked by USAF aircraft, with two deaths resulting.
USS Boston, USS Edson, USCGC Point Dume, HMAS Hobart and two U.S. Swift Boats, PCF-12 and PCF-19


Turkish Invasion of Cyprus

During the fighting on Cyprus, the Turkish destroyer D-354 Kocatepe is sunk by Turkish warplanes after being mistaken for an enemy ship.

In every case listed, the attacks were on distinctive vessels or positions by aircraft or surface vessels

To be continued...

Odysseus
06-20-2009, 05:22 PM
To be continued...


During the attack the crew clearly identified themselves as American through radio and ship signals. At another time I posted the account of the attack by Jack Ennis, who was the Bridge Officer during the attack. He clearly says that the Israelis knew who they were attacking and states the attempts at communication. I am not going to take the time to repost it because you have your head in your ass about this and will believe your buddies in Israel over an American Naval Officer who actually was involved in the attack.

Even though it is obvious you have no intention of wanting to know the truth in this matter I will answer your stupid questions.
How would Jack Ennis know what the Israeli pilots could see? Pilots of far slower aircraft have bombed far more distinctive vessels under far less complex circumstances throughout history. Ennis is angry at the losses suffered by the Liberty. He lost friends that he had served with for years and it is understandable that he would blame the Israelis, but we weren't there in the heat of battle and we have the advantage of seeing things dispassionately, as well as having evidence that wasn't available to Ennis. Your selective acceptance of facts demonstrates that you're not going to be convinced.

Israeli did not want to go to war with America. They had a strong pro Israel lobby in the US and knew they could influence policy. Their intention was to take out the Liberty, not get into a war with the US. I posted Adm Moorer’s theory on why the Israelis attacked the Liberty in another post on this thread. You already ignored it is no need for me to repost it.
If Israel trusted their lobby in the US to be able to overcome the rage at an attack on a US ship, why didn't they just trust that lobby to overcome what would have been a much less controversial attack on the Golan Heights? Does the complete lack of logic of your argument give you any pause? As for ADM Moorer's contention of a motive, I'll repost it, because it's been debunked:


I am confident that Israel knew the Liberty could intercept radio messages from all parties and potential parties to the ongoing war, then in its fourth day, and that Israel was preparing to seize the Golan Heights from Syria despite President Johnson's known opposition to such a move. I think they realized that if we learned in advance of their plan, there would be a tremendous amount of negotiating between Tel Aviv and Washington.

First, as I said before, a lobby powerful enough to deflect a deliberate attack on an ally is powerful enough to deflect mild displeasure over an attack on an enemy (Syria was in the Soviet camp) and the taking of a piece of territory that was far smaller and less controversial than the whole Sinai or West Banks (remember that at the time, Jordan was ostensibly a US ally, and Washington had no problem with the taking of the West Bank). But, I've answered this before, and Gator continues to ignore the obvious fact that ADM Moorer's theory was wrong. Here's why:

First, Moshe Dayan was in opposition to taking the Golan Heights, as he believed that the positions couldn't be taken without horrific casualties. It was Levi Eshkol who supported the attack. The geography of the Golan Heights made an attack from below an potentially disastrous exercise which Dayan estimated would cost 30,000 casualties. This was an ongoing debate within the IDF hierarchy from 7-8 June, with the final decision to attack being made only on 9 June, the day after the Liberty incident, which means that Israel would have had to have decided to neutralize the ship in order to pursue an operation that was not yet approved. Dayan was en route to the Golan Heights on the eighth, which has been documented by several sources, and could not have given the order, so at a minimum, ADM Moorer is wrong about who would have given the attack order. Second, by the time of the attack, Israel had defeated the Egyptian forces in the Sinai and the Jordanians on the West Bank, which were far larger pieces of terrain, with far greater populations, and there is no indication that the Johnson administration objected to these successes, while the Golan Heights, which were sparcely populated but of intense strategic value, as the Syrian artillery on the heights could (and did) fire on almost all of northern Israel, would have been a much less problematic acquisition. Why would the US, which had no objection to the Israeli victories against Egypt, which was a Soviet client, and Jordan, which was not, object to the taking of a third, smaller, barely populated parcel of land from another Soviet client state? That makes no sense. Third, the Liberty's position was out of the line of sight of Tel Aviv, which meant that they could not monitor the UHF radio traffic between Tel Aviv and the Israeli Northern Command, which was conducting the Golan operations. UHF traffic can only be intercepted if you have line of sight to the source, and cannot transmit over the horizon. All of the Israeli tactical radio traffic was UHF. Fourth, there were no Hebrew linguists on the Liberty, which meant that there was no way for them to conduct translations of any traffic that they received (assuming that they could have intercepted UHF radio over the horizon), nor did they have a secure link to CONUS, or they would have received the order to withdraw to the 100-mile standoff, so there was no way that they could have monitored, translated and transmitted the kind of information that ADM Moorer suggests the Israelis would have killed to keep from us. Finally, documents declassified in 1997 make the final argument moot, as they explicitly state that the US already knew of Israel's combat operations in the Golan. In fact, Israeli intelligence General Aharon Yaariv provided direct information of the plan to Dean Rush and Robert McNamara prior to the order being given to go up the slope.

In short, the facts do not support ADM Moorer's theory.


As soon as the attack was over and the goddamn Israelis understood that LBJ had chose not counter attack so they moved to do damage control. The best way to extract themselves from the crisis was to claim it was an accident. No harm, no foul, correct? All of the bullshit after the attack of issuing statements and offering restitution and everything else was just to out with the least amount of damage so the pro Israel lobby in America could do damage control. It worked very well. The Israelis got rid of the Liberty and little shits like you are still giving them a pass 42 years later.
But they didn't get rid of the Liberty, did they? It was still afloat. They could have sunk it with all hands and made a much more plausible case for friendly fire without witnesses. Or, they could have claimed that it was Egyptian aircraft that sank it, without anyone to deny it credibly. That would have cemented US/Israeli relations instead of straining them. Why break off the attack when completing the sinking would have put Israel in a far better position?


As far as your stupid claim that they were not equipped to do the job then why did the fucking Israelis claim they out to sink another ship? If you take the Israeli explanation then they were sent to sink a ship so why you are complaining about their armaments is beyond me.
The Israelis launched a hasty attack with what they had available against a ship that looked like a threat. The aircraft damaged the ship and the torpedo boats came in for the kill, but didn't fire when they identified the ship as American. If this had been a planned and deliberately executed attack against a known target under the auspices of strategic planning, they'd have sank it after it was positively ID'ed, not broken off the attack and offered aid.


It is always laughable to hear claims that if the Israelis really wanted to sink the Liberty they could have but yet the Captain of the Liberty received a Congressional Medal of Honor for his heroic efforts in keeping the ship afloat.
He kept the ship afloat after the attack was broken off. If the attack had continued, the ship would have been sunk despite CPT McGonagle's desperate and heroic efforts. His actions did not involve fighting off the Israelis or otherwise stopping the attack, they involved heroic efforts at damage control, repairs and care for the wounded despite his own injuries after the battle was over. You continue to wave his citation as if he'd magically stopped the attack.

Oh, and while we're on the subject of the award of CPT McGonagle's MOH, your claim that he was awarded it at the Navy Yard IOT diminish its profile turns out to have been false, and the proof comes from CPT McGonagle himself. Here is a link to a letter that he wrote to Judge Cristol after viewing LBJ's diary entry (http://www.thelibertyincident.com/docs/McGonagle.pdf) for the day. You can make all of the spurious accusations that you want about Cristol, but if you deny the contents of this letter, then it is CPT McGonagle that you are slandering. [/QUOTE]


How about answering people with the insults right away? Maybe you need a timeout to cool off a bit there...:p
If you think that he's enraged now, wait until he reads my reply. You're sure that he can't get my address? :D

Sonnabend
06-20-2009, 05:54 PM
I am out of here for the weekend.

Dont hurry back.

Teetop
06-20-2009, 09:20 PM
No, the pattern is:
Somebody posts something that may or may not have anything to do with Israel (Missile defense for Poland, unemployment hitting 5.5%, etc.)
You chime in that the problem is US support of Israel and how we should retreat to our borders and the Hell with the rest of the world.
You get spanked on the facts
You claim that this is already settled but provide no evidence of your previous "victories" and insult anyone who disagrees with you as a traitor to America and an Israel lover with a bunch of scatalogical idiocies and vicious personal slurs, including the claim that Jews are incapable of loyalty to America first .
You are called on this blatant antisemitism, and begin screaming about how you're the injured party. You refuse to answer questions but claim that you've already done so, or that you don't have to. Then you go back to the namecalling.


S.O.P.

djones520
06-21-2009, 12:06 AM
How about answering people without the insults right away? Maybe you need a
timeout to cool off a bit there...:p

Thats like asking someone not to breath Sarasota. It just can't be done with him. Then he'd have to add substance and reasoned thought, and we all know those idea's are anathema to him.

Odysseus crafted a response thats far better then I could have done, so I'll let it go with that for now.

Edit: There actually was two points I wanted to address.


Originally Posted by gator
It is always laughable to hear claims that if the Israelis really wanted to sink the Liberty they could have but yet the Captain of the Liberty received a Congressional Medal of Honor for his heroic efforts in keeping the ship afloat.

You're showing your ignorance on the topic here Gator. 30mm cannon fire to a 460ft long ship is not going to sink the ship. Napalm to the deck of a ship is not going to sink a ship. The only hope that those two arms had of doing the damage necessary to sink that ship would have been to cause a fire to spread to the munitions store. Since the ship had no major weapons requiring a store of high explosive material, then this couldn't have happened. The mission planners would have known of this Gator. They would have equipped those aircraft with penetrating bombs, or anti-ship missiles, if they had intended to sink that ship. It is the only sure means they would have had.


Originally Posted by gator
As soon as the attack was over and the goddamn Israelis understood that LBJ had chose not counter attack so they moved to do damage control. The best way to extract themselves from the crisis was to claim it was an accident. No harm, no foul, correct? All of the bullshit after the attack of issuing statements and offering restitution and everything else was just to out with the least amount of damage so the pro Israel lobby in America could do damage control. It worked very well. The Israelis got rid of the Liberty and little shits like you are still giving them a pass 42 years later.

2 hours Gator. It took 2 hours for the Israeli government to come forward about the issue. I doubt LBJ had even heard of the attack by then, let alone had time to decide apon a response.

This reasoning is so full of stupid it makes my head swim.

gator
06-21-2009, 09:15 AM
I hear this pro Israel bullshit all the time.

In the zest to give the Israelis a pass on the attack all kinds of shit is offered up and some have been posted in this thread.

The indisputable facts:

The Liberty was a well identified American warship that was operating in International waters.

The Israelis claimed that the ship's U.S. flag hung limp because there was no wind. Later, when presented with the fact that the flag had been perfectly visible, they claimed that they thought that the ship was an enemy vessel flying false colors. Typical Israeli bullshit of changing the story when presented with the facts. The extended radio monitoring, exposing considerable advance investigation of Liberty's communication facilities, refutes this claim.

The Israelis eventually admitted that before the attack their commanders had compared reconnaissance photos of the Liberty with Jane's Fighting Ships. But they claimed that before the attack they twice telephoned the U.S. naval attache in Tel Aviv inquiring whether the Liberty was a U.S. ship and were told that there were no U.S. Navy ships in the area. They claimed that having received a negative reply, they decided that the ship had to be the El Quseir. However, the U.S. embassy in Tel Aviv, and later the naval attache, emphatically stated that no such inquiries were made. The Israelis not only knew the ship's nationality and that she was an "ELINT" ship; they also knew she was the Liberty herself.

At dawn 8 June, Israeli aircraft began reconnoitering the ship, some flying so close that the pilots could clearly be seen, and as low as masthead height, obviously photographing it. This extensive observation lasted seven hours and involved eight separate observations, at about 0600, 0900, 1000, 1030, 1100, and 1130, 1200 and 1215 p.m. U.S. intercept stations twice overheard Israeli pilots reporting that the ship was American. The visibility conditions were perfect; the ship's American flag was flying free and clear in a good breeze.

The attack was an extended combined arms assault in relatively close quarters and it is unbelievable to think that the Americans could identify the Israelis but the Israelis could not identify the Americans.

The Israelis claim they were sent to attack the El Quseir but it had been in dock for more than a year, was an old and dilapidated ship and was less than half the size of the Liberty and had no antenna array, weapons nor did it fly an American flag and have the designation GTR 5. It was even painted a different color.

Fifteen years after the attack, an Israeli pilot approached Liberty survivors and then held extensive interviews with former Congressman Paul N. (Pete) McCloskey about his role. According to this senior Israeli lead pilot, he recognized the Liberty as American immediately, so informed his headquarters, and was told to ignore the American flag and continue his attack. He refused to do so and returned to base, where he was arrested.

Later, a dual-citizen Israeli major told survivors that he was in an Israeli war room where he heard that pilot's radio report. The attacking pilots and everyone in the Israeli war room knew that they were attacking an American ship, the major said.

The pilot's protests also were heard by radio monitors in the U.S. Embassy in Lebanon. Then-U.S. Ambassador to Lebanon Dwight Porter has confirmed this. Porter told his story to syndicated columnists Rowland Evans and Robert Novak and offered to submit to further questioning by authorities. Unfortunately, no one in the U.S. government has any interest in hearing these first-person accounts of Israeli treachery.

There is evidence of a relationship between the attack on the Liberty and a postponement of Israel's planned attack on the Golan Heights. The Golan attack was scheduled for 11:30 a.m. on 8 June; the Liberty was spotted by 6 a.m. or earlier; last minute orders delayed the Golan attack; the Liberty was put out of commission; and the Golan attack occurred shortly thereafter.

In a signed affidavit released at a Capitol Hill news conference, retired Capt. Ward Boston said Johnson and McNamara told those heading the Navy's inquiry to "conclude that the attack was a case of 'mistaken identity" despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary." Boston was no Nazi meannie that you Israelis supporters claim are the only people that expose Israeli treachery. Ward Boston was a Navy attorney who led the military investigation.

There is tremendous evidence that the Liberty was attacked on purpose. To think otherwise is preposterous.

You only three kinds of dissenting views on the attack. The goddamn Israelis, who can’t be believed on anything. The official naval investigation which has been discredited by the members of the board. Ward Boston was a member of the board and said he was directed to reach a conclusion that was contrary to the actual facts. Also, a fat ass Miami bankrupt judge, Jay Cristol, wrote a book about the incident that dickheads like Odysseys will quote but the facts in the book has been discredited by the Naval Institute and other historians. I have posted some of the debunking in other threads.

There is certainly enough evidence to incorporate the findings of the Moorer Independent Commission, which concluded that the US should conduct a through investigation.

If all the pro Israel shits are convinced the Israelis just had a Keystone Kops moment and accidentally killed 34 Americans and wounded 170 more then what is the problem with doing a real investigation as proposed by Moorer? The truth can’t hurt, can it?

djones520
06-21-2009, 09:27 AM
Indisputable my ass Gator.

You still have yet to explain how anyone in their right mind would plan as extensive an operation as you're suggesting, and then can't equip the aircraft properly.

You can post 200 pages worth of conspiracy theories all day long, but it doesn't matter. That one simple little thing just completely sinks (no pun intended) your "theory". I know you'll refuse to acknowledge it, but any sane people can, and will.

Sonnabend
06-21-2009, 09:30 AM
The Liberty was a well identified American spy ship that was operating in International waters transmitting sensitive information.

Edited for factual accuracy.

Odysseus
06-21-2009, 11:48 AM
I hear this pro Israel bullshit all the time.
Then you'd think that you could answer it. Why can't you? Oh, right, because you're wrong and don't have any facts.


In the zest to give the Israelis a pass on the attack all kinds of shit is offered up and some have been posted in this thread.

The indisputable facts:

The Liberty was a well identified American warship that was operating in International waters.
The Liberty was, to the combatants, and unidentified ship entering a war zone. It was not where it was supposed to be, and identification of naval vessels is more art than science. Go back to the list of friendly fire incidents involving naval vessels and aircraft.


The Israelis claimed that the ship's U.S. flag hung limp because there was no wind. Later, when presented with the fact that the flag had been perfectly visible, they claimed that they thought that the ship was an enemy vessel flying false colors. Typical Israeli bullshit of changing the story when presented with the facts. The extended radio monitoring, exposing considerable advance investigation of Liberty's communication facilities, refutes this claim.
Note the photo taken from the deck of the Liberty showing smoke from the deck fires going straight up. No wind, Gator. The flag would have been limp.
http://www.thelibertyincident.com/docs/photos/20-64.JPG

The Israelis eventually admitted that before the attack their commanders had compared reconnaissance photos of the Liberty with Jane's Fighting Ships. But they claimed that before the attack they twice telephoned the U.S. naval attache in Tel Aviv inquiring whether the Liberty was a U.S. ship and were told that there were no U.S. Navy ships in the area. They claimed that having received a negative reply, they decided that the ship had to be the El Quseir. However, the U.S. embassy in Tel Aviv, and later the naval attache, emphatically stated that no such inquiries were made. The Israelis not only knew the ship's nationality and that she was an "ELINT" ship; they also knew she was the Liberty herself.
Every report by every US agency since the incident has contradicted this claim.
From the declassified National Security Agency report : “Liberty was mistaken for an Egyptian ship as a result of miscalculations and egregious errors”? and “While these reports revealed some confusion concerning the nationality of the ship, they tended to rule out any thesis that the Israeli Navy and Air Force deliberately attacked a ship they knew to be American.”
From Clark Clifford’s July 18, 1967: “The weight of the evidence is that the Israeli attacking forces originally believed their target was Egyptian . . .2. The information thus far available does not reflect that the Israeli high command made a premeditated attack on a ship known to be American.”


At dawn 8 June, Israeli aircraft began reconnoitering the ship, some flying so close that the pilots could clearly be seen, and as low as masthead height, obviously photographing it. This extensive observation lasted seven hours and involved eight separate observations, at about 0600, 0900, 1000, 1030, 1100, and 1130, 1200 and 1215 p.m. U.S. intercept stations twice overheard Israeli pilots reporting that the ship was American. The visibility conditions were perfect; the ship's American flag was flying free and clear in a good breeze.
http://www.ussliberty.org/g/elquseir.gifhttp://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/u120000/u123118t.jpg
To those of you who have not seen either ship, ask yourself if, during an overflight at mach 1, that you could tell these two ships apart?

The attack was an extended combined arms assault in relatively close quarters and it is unbelievable to think that the Americans could identify the Israelis but the Israelis could not identify the Americans.

The Israelis claim they were sent to attack the El Quseir but it had been in dock for more than a year, was an old and dilapidated ship and was less than half the size of the Liberty and had no antenna array, weapons nor did it fly an American flag and have the designation GTR 5. It was even painted a different color.

Fifteen years after the attack, an Israeli pilot approached Liberty survivors and then held extensive interviews with former Congressman Paul N. (Pete) McCloskey about his role. According to this senior Israeli lead pilot, he recognized the Liberty as American immediately, so informed his headquarters, and was told to ignore the American flag and continue his attack. He refused to do so and returned to base, where he was arrested.

Later, a dual-citizen Israeli major told survivors that he was in an Israeli war room where he heard that pilot's radio report. The attacking pilots and everyone in the Israeli war room knew that they were attacking an American ship, the major said.

The pilot's protests also were heard by radio monitors in the U.S. Embassy in Lebanon. Then-U.S. Ambassador to Lebanon Dwight Porter has confirmed this. Porter told his story to syndicated columnists Rowland Evans and Robert Novak and offered to submit to further questioning by authorities. Unfortunately, no one in the U.S. government has any interest in hearing these first-person accounts of Israeli treachery.

There is evidence of a relationship between the attack on the Liberty and a postponement of Israel's planned attack on the Golan Heights. The Golan attack was scheduled for 11:30 a.m. on 8 June; the Liberty was spotted by 6 a.m. or earlier; last minute orders delayed the Golan attack; the Liberty was put out of commission; and the Golan attack occurred shortly thereafter.

In a signed affidavit released at a Capitol Hill news conference, retired Capt. Ward Boston said Johnson and McNamara told those heading the Navy's inquiry to "conclude that the attack was a case of 'mistaken identity" despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary." Boston was no Nazi meannie that you Israelis supporters claim are the only people that expose Israeli treachery. Ward Boston was a Navy attorney who led the military investigation.

There is tremendous evidence that the Liberty was attacked on purpose. To think otherwise is preposterous.

You only three kinds of dissenting views on the attack. The goddamn Israelis, who can’t be believed on anything. The official naval investigation which has been discredited by the members of the board. Ward Boston was a member of the board and said he was directed to reach a conclusion that was contrary to the actual facts. Also, a fat ass Miami bankrupt judge, Jay Cristol, wrote a book about the incident that dickheads like Odysseys will quote but the facts in the book has been discredited by the Naval Institute and other historians. I have posted some of the debunking in other threads.

There is certainly enough evidence to incorporate the findings of the Moorer Independent Commission, which concluded that the US should conduct a through investigation.

If all the pro Israel shits are convinced the Israelis just had a Keystone Kops moment and accidentally killed 34 Americans and wounded 170 more then what is the problem with doing a real investigation as proposed by Moorer? The truth can’t hurt, can it?
In other words, there is no such thing as an honorable position besides yours. This, BTW, is why you detest Cristol. He conducted painstaking interviews with everyone involved (including Ward Boston, who apparently lied to Cristol then, since he upheld the integrity of the board), and has debunked all of this conspiracy garbage in his book. But, once again, I must ask the obvious question: What is Cristol's motive for discrediting the story? You could argue that the Israelis are covering their asses, and we know that you consider American Jews who don't believe your version to be traitors in service to a foreign government, but what did Cristol get out of this?

Indisputable my ass Gator.

You still have yet to explain how anyone in their right mind would plan as extensive an operation as you're suggesting, and then can't equip the aircraft properly.

You can post 200 pages worth of conspiracy theories all day long, but it doesn't matter. That one simple little thing just completely sinks (no pun intended) your "theory". I know you'll refuse to acknowledge it, but any sane people can, and will.
Exactly.

gator
06-21-2009, 03:15 PM
The best way to get to the bottom of this issue is to do a proper investigation.

Members of the naval investing board have said very publicly that they were directed to reach a certain conclusion, regardless of the facts. Captain Ward Boston, whose reputation is beyond approach, is a very credible witness to the cover up and cannot be ignore by anyone really wanting to understand the truth.

In 2003 the Moorer Independent Commission did a detailed review of the evidence and determined that there is significant evidence that the Israelis did it on purpose and that there was a cover up. Moorer and the other members of the Commission were not Nazi meannies, but decorated senior American officers including Chairman of the Joint Chief of Staff and the Assistant Commandant of the Marine Corps and a Medal of Honor awardee. They were not members of Stormfront and each one of them would probably kick your ass if called them anti Semitic.

The crewmember association of the USS Liberty has also been calling for war crimes investigations against the Israelis.

When I see the goddamn Israelis apologist scoured Google to find one sided information and ignore the mountain of evidence to the contrary to support their lame ass contention that the Israelis were just plain incompetent I wonder what they are really afraid of.

After all there is no statue of limitations against attacks on America, is there? There is no statue of limitation on the murder of US servicemen, is there? There is no statute of limitations on war crimes, is there?

I think is very clear why the Israelis apologist do not want a full investigation as recommended by the Moorer Commission. They are afraid that the truth will be known and America will question its commitment to guarantee the security of Israel. That is an unacceptable thing to the goddamn pro Israel faction in America. It is pathetic that these low class assholes put the well being of a filthy foreign country ahead of justice for American military men. Not only is it pathetic but it is disgusting.

They would have the injustice done to American military men rather than to take the chance on America understanding that Israel is a scumbag country.

I am not afraid of the truth in this matter. Because I love America more than some shitass Middle East country I want us to hunt down terrorist that have attacked us and killed our brave sailors.

At the end of the day the only thing the pro Israel lobby wants people like me to do is shut up my mouth and to give the Israelis bastards a pass on the killings. They are afraid of a real investigation into the matter as recommended by the Moorer Commission. They are afraid of the truth. Some shitasses may go to Jay Cristol’s website and pull off some misinformation that has been debunked by the Naval Institute as proof that the Israelis didn’t do it on purpose but they will cry like a baby at the suggestion of a real investigation. What are they afraid of?

Findings of the Independent Commission of Inquiry
into the Israeli Attack on USS Liberty,
the Recall of Military Rescue Support Aircraft
while the Ship was Under Attack, and the
Subsequent Cover-up by the United States Government


CAPITOL HILL, WASHINGTON, D.C.
OCTOBER 22, 2003


We, the undersigned, having undertaken an independent investigation of Israel�s attack on USS Liberty, including eyewitness testimony from surviving crewmembers, a review of naval and other official records, an examination of official statements by the Israeli and American governments, a study of the conclusions of all previous official inquiries, and a consideration of important new evidence and recent statements from individuals having direct knowledge of the attack or the cover up, hereby find the following:

1. That on June 8, 1967, after eight hours of aerial surveillance, Israel launched a two-hour air and naval attack against USS Liberty, the world�s most sophisticated intelligence ship, inflicting 34 dead and 172 wounded American servicemen (a casualty rate of seventy percent, in a crew of 294);

2. That the Israeli air attack lasted approximately 25 minutes, during which time unmarked Israeli aircraft dropped napalm canisters on USS Liberty's bridge, and fired 30mm cannons and rockets into our ship, causing 821 holes, more than 100 of which were rocket-size; survivors estimate 30 or more sorties were flown over the ship by a minimum of 12 attacking Israeli planes which were jamming all five American emergency radio channels;

3. That the torpedo boat attack involved not only the firing of torpedoes, but the machine-gunning of Liberty�s firefighters and stretcher-bearers as they struggled to save their ship and crew; the Israeli torpedo boats later returned to machine-gun at close range three of the Liberty�s life rafts that had been lowered into the water by survivors to rescue the most seriously wounded;

4. That there is compelling evidence that Israel�s attack was a deliberate attempt to destroy an American ship and kill her entire crew; evidence of such intent is supported by statements from Secretary of State Dean Rusk, Undersecretary of State George Ball, former CIA director Richard Helms, former NSA directors Lieutenant General William Odom, USA (Ret.), Admiral Bobby Ray Inman, USN (Ret.), and Marshal Carter; former NSA deputy directors Oliver Kirby and Major General John Morrison, USAF (Ret.); and former Ambassador Dwight Porter, U.S. Ambassador to Lebanon in 1967;

5. That in attacking USS Liberty, Israel committed acts of murder against American servicemen and an act of war against the United States;

6. That fearing conflict with Israel, the White House deliberately prevented the U.S. Navy from coming to the defense of USS Liberty by recalling Sixth Fleet military rescue support while the ship was under attack; evidence of the recall of rescue aircraft is supported by statements of Captain Joe Tully, Commanding Officer of the aircraft carrier USS Saratoga, and Rear Admiral Lawrence Geis, the Sixth Fleet carrier division commander, at the time of the attack; never before in American naval history has a rescue mission been cancelled when an American ship was under attack;

7. That although Liberty was saved from almost certain destruction through the heroic efforts of the ship�s Captain, William L. McGonagle (MOH), and his brave crew, surviving crewmembers were later threatened with �court-martial, imprisonment or worse� if they exposed the truth; and were abandoned by their own government;

8. That due to the influence of Israel�s powerful supporters in the United States, the White House deliberately covered up the facts of this attack from the American people;

9. That due to continuing pressure by the pro-Israel lobby in the United States, this attack remains the only serious naval incident that has never been thoroughly investigated by Congress; to this day, no surviving crewmember has been permitted to officially and publicly testify about the attack;

10. That there has been an official cover-up without precedent in American naval history; the existence of such a cover-up is now supported by statements of Rear Admiral Merlin Staring, USN (Ret.), former Judge Advocate General of the Navy; and Captain Ward Boston, USN, (Ret.), the chief counsel to the Navy�s 1967 Court of Inquiry of Liberty attack;

11. That the truth about Israel�s attack and subsequent White House cover-up continues to be officially concealed from the American people to the present day and is a national disgrace;

12. That a danger to our national security exists whenever our elected officials are willing to subordinate American interests to those of any foreign nation, and specifically are unwilling to challenge Israel�s interests when they conflict with American interests; this policy, evidenced by the failure to defend USS Liberty and the subsequent official cover-up of the Israeli attack, endangers the safety of Americans and the security of the United States.

WHEREUPON, we, the undersigned, in order to fulfill our duty to the brave crew of USS Liberty and to all Americans who are asked to serve in our Armed Forces, hereby call upon the Department of the Navy, the Congress of the United States and the American people to immediately take the following actions:

FIRST: That a new Court of Inquiry be convened by the Department of the Navy, operating with Congressional oversight, to take public testimony from surviving crewmembers; and to thoroughly investigate the circumstances of the attack on the USS Liberty, with full cooperation from the National Security Agency, the Central Intelligence Agency and the military intelligence services, and to determine Israel�s possible motive in launching said attack on a U.S. naval vessel;

SECOND: That every appropriate committee of the Congress of the United States investigate the actions of the White House and Defense Department that prevented the rescue of the USS Liberty, thereafter threatened her surviving officers and men if they exposed the truth, and covered up the true circumstances of the attack from the American people; and

THIRD: That the eighth day of June of every year be proclaimed to be hereafter known as
USS LIBERTY REMEMBRANCE DAY, in order to commemorate USS Liberty�s heroic crew; and to educate the American people of the danger to our national security inherent in any passionate attachment of our elected officials for any foreign nation.

We, the undersigned, hereby affix our hands and seals, this 22nd day of October, 2003.

Thomas H. Moorer
Former Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff

General of Marines Raymond G. Davis, USMC, MOH*
Merlin Staring

Rear Admiral Merlin Staring, USN, Ret.,
Former Judge Advocate General of the Navy,

James Akins
Ambassador James Akins, Ret.,
Former United States Ambassador to Saudi Arabia,

Odysseus
06-21-2009, 05:47 PM
How many times are you going to paste the same tired crap? We've been through this over and over, and you still can't answer a simple question: What was Israel's motive? ADM Moorer was wrong about the Golan attack (something that he couldn't have known at the time), so what was Israel's motive for shooting up an American ship and then leaving witnesses?
I can't speak for the pro-Israel lobby, but I'd don't care if you keep talking, I'd just like you to answer some questions.

Once again, for the benefit of the hard of reading (which seems to include you, Gator):


You've claimed that Israelis kicked the Arabs off of their own land, but if this were the case, how did they do it?
The UN partition plan would have divided up Palestine into two regions, based solely on who was in the majority in those areas. Jews would have only had sovereignty over their own enclaves, while Arabs would have had sovereignty over theirs, while Jerusalem, which has had a Jewish majority since biblical times, would have been an open city. The Jews were willing to accept this, but not the Arabs. Ask yourself why the Arabs would not accept a tiny Jewish state on land in which they were already the majority?
If hatred of Israel is the only thing driving Arab policies, then why is it that they are backing Islamic revolutions in the Philippines, Chechnya, Thailand and Kenya, none of which was ever an ally or supporter of Israel? Why are there Islamiist jihads against Christian Animists in Darfur, Baha'is in Iran, or anywhere else that a sizeable Moslem community butts up against anyone else?
But, let's play your game for the moment. Let's say that, for the sake of argument, the "goddamn pieces of shit Iraelis" had intended to destroy the Liberty and prevent it from doing whatever it was that you think would have done more damage to Israel than a horrific friendly fire incident against their most important ally would have done, I have just one question. Why not sink the vessel with all hands and then claim that it was an accident, with no one left alive to rebut the issue? What is the logic of damaging the ship, but not sinking it? Why, when the Liberty was completely defenseless and at the mercy of a superior force, did the Israelis stop?

thinker
06-21-2009, 06:09 PM
The state of Israel apologized, they paid compensation, quit lying. It's documented. Get your head out of fudge-packer's ass.

WHERE?

Shannon
06-21-2009, 06:34 PM
WHERE?

I didn't quite get what you were saying there. Care to repeat?:p

Sonnabend
06-21-2009, 06:48 PM
In May 1968, Israel paid US$3,323,500 as full payment on behalf of the families of the 34 men killed in the attack.

In March 1969 Israel paid a further $3,566,457 in compensation to the men who had been wounded.

On 18 December 1980 Israel agreed to pay $6 million as settlement for the U.S. claim of $7,644,146 for material damage to the Liberty itself


After a long wait, Israel paid $3.5 million in financial compensation to the families of the dead and $3.5 million to the wounded, some of whom refused to accept the money. In 1982—after Sen. Adlai Stevenson (D-IL) threatened to hold an inquiry—Israel suddenly offered $6 million for damage to the ship and “to close the book on the USS Liberty affair.


In all, the State of Israel paid the United States $12 million in compensation, the second half of which was paid in 1980

Do your own fact checking next time.

thinker
06-21-2009, 06:50 PM
Do your own fact checking next time.

I'm not required to fact check other people's posts. If you're going to make a claim, source it.

And you've failed to do it as well...source?

Sonnabend
06-21-2009, 06:51 PM
And you've failed to do it as well...source?

www.google.com

Go.

thinker
06-21-2009, 06:53 PM
I didn't quite get what you were saying there. Care to repeat?:p

Rofl. I was inviting Tee to actually source where he's getting the idea that compensation and apologies have been made by the Israeli government; to date, I've yet to see a reputable source that says they have, and what/how much. I have followed the history of the Liberty incident on and off for the last 5 to 6 years...I'm not particularly for or against either side. I just don't appreciate seeing unsubstantiated claims being made when so much weight (particularly in this thread) is being placed on the "facts" as people like to call it.

djones520
06-21-2009, 06:59 PM
http://www.nolanchart.com/article4660.html

Even this Gatoresque blogger admits it.


Israel paid $6 million in reparations to the families of the dead, and $6 million in reparations for the ship itself,

Read that entry for a few minutes, and you'll see he's just as unhinged as Gator is.

thinker
06-21-2009, 07:07 PM
www.google.com

Go.

Fine. I'll play.

A very, very interesting, nonstandard analysis of how "reparations" were made:

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/israellibertyrep.php?q=israellibertyrep.php (Article)


An arrangement was agreed to by Israel only after U.S. aid to Israel was increased from $13 million in Fiscal Year 1967 to a whopping $76.8 million in Fiscal Year 1968. That aid increase took care of negotiations for the crew, dead and wounded. These payments were made with U.S. Government checks in late Spring, 1968.

Israel then refused to pay for the LIBERTY damage. The United States government then increased the aid to Israel to $121.7 million for FY 1969. The new negotiations began and Israel agreed to pay $7.6 million damages for the $40 million ship which was sold for less than $200,000.00 as scrap. But Israel DID NOT PAY as promised when U.S. aid was cut to $71 million for FY 1970, even though that was still five times the U.S. aid of 1967. And the bill remained unpaid (and not deducted from the increased U.S. aid).

With the election of Ronald Reagan in November of 1980, Israel was unsure of how good a friend to Israel Reagan would be. A bird in the hand, so to speak and Israel initiated new USS LIBERTY damage negotiations with old friend Jimmy Carter. In December, 1980 the state Department announced that Israel had agreed to pay a total of $6 million for the LIBERTY in three payments over the next three years. A State Department official was quoted (as saying), “The book is closed on the USS LIBERTY.” That was 10-1/2 years after Israel had agreed to pay $7.6 million. No interest was to be paid by Israel. Even this last agreement was not kept per the agreement. It was reported in 1988, five years after Carter’s agreement should have been paid off, that Israel had finally paid the last installment.

Between the attack by Israel on the LIBERTY in 1967 and the last payment, some $45 billion is U.S. (U.S. taxpayer money) has been given to Israel by bought U.S. politicians. Any payments were deducted from ever increasing U.S. aid to Israel.

(emphasis added to the most salient points)

From another article, directly referencing a survivor (who allows that reparations were made to the survivors, albeit not from Israel, as the prior analysis gives rather insightful perspective on)


Israel did provide reparations to the families of those killed and injured, but a Congressional investigation never was conducted, Scott said. Scarborough said he and the other survivors want to know why.

http://www.ledger-enquirer.com/news/story/744389.html (Survivor Statement)

Personal apologies matter little. Matters of this gravity deserve investigations, public hearings, and a well documented account of what occurred and who was responsible. NONE of those things have happened in any public capacity.

thinker
06-21-2009, 07:10 PM
http://www.nolanchart.com/article4660.html

Even this Gatoresque blogger admits it.



Read that entry for a few minutes, and you'll see he's just as unhinged as Gator is.

I never took issue with the assertion that reparations were made - just assertions that they were made by the Israelis. Check the link I just posted - Israel didn't pay. The American taxpayer did.

Sonnabend
06-21-2009, 07:10 PM
NONE of those things have happened in any public capacity.

Wrong again.

thinker
06-21-2009, 07:12 PM
:rolleyes:


You saying it doesn't make it true.

Teetop
06-21-2009, 07:14 PM
Fine. I'll play.

A very, very interesting, nonstandard analysis of how "reparations" were made:

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/israellibertyrep.php?q=israellibertyrep.php (Article)



(emphasis added to the most salient points)

From another article, directly referencing a survivor (who allows that reparations were made to the survivors, albeit not from Israel, as the prior analysis gives rather insightful perspective on)



http://www.ledger-enquirer.com/news/story/744389.html (Survivor Statement)

Personal apologies matter little. Matters of this gravity deserve investigations, public hearings, and a well documented account of what occurred and who was responsible. NONE of those things have happened in any public capacity.

Michael Rivero? And you call yourself thinker?!


Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahaha!

You should call yourself, thinner.


I used to dis-prove Rivero's conspiracy theories and get banned from his chat site. Does he still have the Kursk Submarine still up? As another sub hitting it? An American one....?

Fool.

thinker
06-21-2009, 07:16 PM
Michael Rivero? And you call yourself thinker?!


Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahaha!

You should call yourself, thinner.


I used to dis-prove Rivero's conspiracy theories and get banned from his chat site. Does he still have the Kursk Submarine still up? As another sub hitting it? An American one....?

Fool.

The whatreallyhappened article is sourced by an open letter written by a man to his local newspaper. The paper is archaic enough not to have its own archives, thus I linked the WTH article.

You should call yourself blowhard, since you apparently can't bother to back your hot air up with anything but memes and general assertions of what "everyone" knows to be true.

Teetop
06-21-2009, 07:18 PM
WHERE?

Read the links DUmb-ass.

Teetop
06-21-2009, 07:20 PM
The whatreallyhappened article is sourced by an open letter written by a man to his local newspaper. The paper is archaic enough not to have its own archives, thus I linked the WTH article.

You should call yourself blowhard, since you apparently can't bother to back your hot air up with anything but memes and general assertions of what "everyone" knows to be true.

An open letter to the local newspaper?

What in the fuck!? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

thinker
06-21-2009, 07:20 PM
You didn't post any, DUmpbait.

thinker
06-21-2009, 07:23 PM
An open letter to the local newspaper?

What in the fuck!? :rolleyes:

Hmm. So independent analysis of the amount of aid the US government has given to Israel over the last 30 years (which is verifiable through multiple government and nongovernment sources) compared against what Israel did and did not do to "make reparations" is not believeable because it's an open letter - but you typing out slap bang 15 word responses on an anonymous internet posting board IS?

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t56/Gilgameesh/smiley/rofl.gif

Teetop
06-21-2009, 07:24 PM
You didn't post any, DUmpbait.

What next out of you Justin Raimando or stormfront.com?

Which is it?

Teetop
06-21-2009, 07:25 PM
Hmm. So independent analysis of the amount of aid the US government has given to Israel over the last 30 years (which is verifiable through multiple government and nongovernment sources) compared against what Israel did and did not do to "make reparations" is not believeable because it's an open letter - but you typing out slap bang 15 word responses on an anonymous internet posting board IS?

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t56/Gilgameesh/smiley/rofl.gif

That is only proof you are guillible and niave.

Teetop
06-21-2009, 07:26 PM
Hmm. So independent analysis of the amount of aid the US government has given to Israel over the last 30 years (which is verifiable through multiple government and nongovernment sources) compared against what Israel did and did not do to "make reparations" is not believeable because it's an open letter - but you typing out slap bang 15 word responses on an anonymous internet posting board IS?

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t56/Gilgameesh/smiley/rofl.gif

BTW, it was only 11 words....

thinker
06-21-2009, 07:27 PM
You obviously don't follow this board much, do you? Go look up some of the threads with stsinner posting his crap in them...you'll find I'm rather opposed to the whole stormfront bit.

Beyond that, it's rather telling that when all I do is ask you to back up your statements with actual facts and sources, you IMMEDIATELY start the ad homs, personal attacks, and comparisons with DU, stormfront, and other associations you feel would make my points irrelevant, instead of actually addressing the points themselves.

Weakling. Run along now.

thinker
06-21-2009, 07:28 PM
That is only proof you are guillible and niave.

Oh yes. Since I don't take you at complete, 100% face value, I'm gullible and naive. Go look up irony in the encyclopedia - your picture is in the entry.

Teetop
06-21-2009, 07:30 PM
You obviously don't follow this board much, do you? Go look up some of the threads with stsinner posting his crap in them...you'll find I'm rather opposed to the whole stormfront bit.

Beyond that, it's rather telling that when all I do is ask you to back up your statements with actual facts and sources, you IMMEDIATELY start the ad homs, personal attacks, and comparisons with DU, stormfront, and other associations you feel would make my points irrelevant, instead of actually addressing the points themselves.

Weakling. Run along now.

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, said gator's "bud". :cool:

thinker
06-21-2009, 07:32 PM
You STILL can't address them.

Rofl.

Teetop
06-21-2009, 07:33 PM
Oh yes. Since I don't take you at complete, 100% face value, I'm gullible and naive. Go look up irony in the encyclopedia - your picture is in the entry.

Rather be irony than what your problem (http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=head+up+ass&gbv=2&aq=f&oq=) is...

Teetop
06-21-2009, 07:37 PM
You STILL can't address them.

Rofl.

And gator is a repeating monologue (boring as it is) over and over. Saying the same things. Not asnwering anything, not doing anything just acting like a warped program repeating itself on an outdated computer.

Now you show up and have nothing concrete to add. Why bother? You haven't shown one piece of evidence that is credible....

thinker
06-21-2009, 07:39 PM
Hur. I drewed u a piktur to halp u unnerstan bettar.

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t22/gravelythinking/BROWNNOSER.png

Rockntractor
06-21-2009, 07:40 PM
Oh yes. Since I don't take you at complete, 100% face value, I'm gullible and naive. Go look up irony in the encyclopedia - your picture is in the entry.

Iron knee. It doesn't look like teetop?
http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv230/upyourstruly/knee-replacement.jpg?t=1245627535

thinker
06-21-2009, 07:43 PM
And gator is a repeating monologue (boring as it is) over and over. Saying the same things. Not asnwering anything, not doing anything just acting like a warped program repeating itself on an outdated computer.

Now you show up and have nothing concrete to add. Why bother? You haven't shown one piece of evidence that is credible....

Right. And I've refused to answer anything...wait, no. Gator isn't right all the time - hell, he's not even right half the time.

The one good, solid point he has in this entire thread is the Moorer Commission, which I've yet to see anyone address.

Beyond that, I was in this thread before you, jerkoff. I didn't just "show up." Or is it now against the rules to take a weekend off to spend time with family? :rolleyes:

Teetop
06-21-2009, 07:44 PM
Hur. I drewed u a piktur to halp u unnerstan bettar.

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t22/gravelythinking/BROWNNOSER.png

Har, har.

Is that all you have? WRH.com and insults? No wonder you're friend's with, gator.

:cool:

Teetop
06-21-2009, 07:45 PM
Right. And I've refused to answer anything...wait, no. Gator isn't right all the time - hell, he's not even right half the time.

The one good, solid point he has in this entire thread is the Moorer Commission, which I've yet to see anyone address.

Beyond that, I was in this thread before you, jerkoff. I didn't just "show up." Or is it now against the rules to take a weekend off to spend time with family? :rolleyes:

What Moorer Commision?

thinker
06-21-2009, 07:47 PM
Har, har.

Is that all you have? WRH.com and insults? No wonder you're friend's with, gator.

:cool:

O.o


....YOU FREAKING STARTED IT, DUMBASS. I don't play flame games with innocent bystanders...or are you that limited for memory? Are you failing to remember that you were comparing me with stormfront, DU, and posting HeaduptheAss pics less than 10 minutes ago?

Sorry if me playing your game hurts your widdle feewings. Maybe you should go play in the sandbox with the other five year olds.

Teetop
06-21-2009, 07:50 PM
O.o


....YOU FREAKING STARTED IT, DUMBASS. I don't play flame games with innocent bystanders...or are you that limited for memory? Are you failing to remember that you were comparing me with stormfront, DU, and posting HeaduptheAss pics less than 10 minutes ago?

Sorry if me playing your game hurts your widdle feewings. Maybe you should go play in the sandbox with the other five year olds.

Why? Are you in the three year old box?

thinker
06-21-2009, 07:52 PM
What Moorer Commision?

Hmm...only THIS ONE. (http://www.ussliberty.org/report/report.htm)

You know, the one with four admirals, a MoH recipient, a Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, etc, etc, etc.

Or are you more credible than them, too? :rolleyes:

thinker
06-21-2009, 07:53 PM
Why? Are you in the three year old box?

Perhaps, the way CU appears to be these days. Bunch of whiny, illiterate idiots around here. You, lars, stsinner, and a few others are really stinking up the place, to be honest.

thinker
06-21-2009, 08:00 PM
Btw, from that report, an email, attributed to Cristol (the man who wrote the book asserting that this is all just some big misunderstanding) to an officer who was aboard the Liberty at the time of the incident:


To: James Ennes <jim@ussliberty.org> [Officer aboard USS Liberty during the attack and author of Assault on the Liberty]
Subject: Yes

Yes, you are an anit-Semitic no good bastard. I was aboard American ships off Sicily during WWII and got the hell blasted by bombers -- USA bombers. This kind of thing occurs in every war. Israel had no motive. The fault lies with the U.S.A. for planting a ship in an area of war. Again, you are a anti-Semitic Nazi bastard. Drop dead."

Right...so it's not okay to call a member on the board a Jew loving traitor (and for the record no, it IS NOT OKAY to do that) but it is okay to call someone who put their life on the line for this country and who happens to feel that justice is yet to be done an "anti-Semitic Nazi bastard" and to "drop dead?"

*that's* the guy you hold up as your expert debunker on this whole thing? Get real.

Teetop
06-21-2009, 08:11 PM
Hmm...only THIS ONE. (http://www.ussliberty.org/report/report.htm)

You know, the one with four admirals, a MoH recipient, a Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, etc, etc, etc.

Or are you more credible than them, too? :rolleyes:

Ok, very well....

What does the Moorer "Commision" have to do with the US government?

Teetop
06-21-2009, 08:12 PM
Perhaps, the way CU appears to be these days. Bunch of whiny, illiterate idiots around here. You, lars, stsinner, and a few others are really stinking up the place, to be honest.

At least my pe*** doesn't smell like sh**.

Teetop
06-21-2009, 08:15 PM
Btw, from that report, an email, attributed to Cristol (the man who wrote the book asserting that this is all just some big misunderstanding) to an officer who was aboard the Liberty at the time of the incident:



Right...so it's not okay to call a member on the board a Jew loving traitor (and for the record no, it IS NOT OKAY to do that) but it is okay to call someone who put their life on the line for this country and who happens to feel that justice is yet to be done an "anti-Semitic Nazi bastard" and to "drop dead?"

*that's* the guy you hold up as your expert debunker on this whole thing? Get real.

Key word...

Try again.

Teetop
06-21-2009, 08:17 PM
Btw, from that report, an email, attributed to Cristol (the man who wrote the book asserting that this is all just some big misunderstanding) to an officer who was aboard the Liberty at the time of the incident:



Right...so it's not okay to call a member on the board a Jew loving traitor (and for the record no, it IS NOT OKAY to do that) but it is okay to call someone who put their life on the line for this country and who happens to feel that justice is yet to be done an "anti-Semitic Nazi bastard" and to "drop dead?"

*that's* the guy you hold up as your expert debunker on this whole thing? Get real.

And that report/"Commision" means.....???????????????????????????????????????? ??? :confused:

thinker
06-21-2009, 08:17 PM
Ok, very well....

What does the Moorer "Commision" have to do with the US government?

That's the whole point - the only halfway decent investigation done by reputable semi-objective authorities HASN'T involved the government.

Considering that 34 US servicement lost their lives, over a hundred and fifty more were injured, and a state of the art US SIGINT asset was lost, doesn't that strike you as the least bit odd?

We have hearings every year over pissant little matters that have nowhere near as many implications on our national security/foreign policy as this does, and continues to have. The best point made by the Moorer Commission is that there is credible evidence out there that DOES need to be addressed in an official and public capacity, so that there aren't a bunch of competing claims out there that serve not only to harm the Israeli/US relationship, but to generate just one more conspiracy theory that the US government is or has been complicit in the murders of its' own personnel, at the behest of "Zionist" elements inside the US and in Israel. It's a load of horseshit, but Israel is too scared to admit they fucked up in a public capacity and our government is too spineless to make them face the music.

My 0.02

thinker
06-21-2009, 08:19 PM
At least my pe*** doesn't smell like sh**.

Because you don't have one? :D

Teetop
06-21-2009, 08:23 PM
That's the whole point - the only halfway decent investigation done by reputable semi-objective authorities HASN'T involved the government.

Considering that 34 US servicement lost their lives, over a hundred and fifty more were injured, and a state of the art US SIGINT asset was lost, doesn't that strike you as the least bit odd?

We have hearings every year over pissant little matters that have nowhere near as many implications on our national security/foreign policy as this does, and continues to have. The best point made by the Moorer Commission is that there is credible evidence out there that DOES need to be addressed in an official and public capacity, so that there aren't a bunch of competing claims out there that serve not only to harm the Israeli/US relationship, but to generate just one more conspiracy theory that the US government is or has been complicit in the murders of its' own personnel, at the behest of "Zionist" elements inside the US and in Israel. It's a load of horseshit, but Israel is too scared to admit they fucked up in a public capacity and our government is too spineless to make them face the music.

My 0.02

Fact; The Israeli's notified the US two hours after the attack. AND, offer assistance in recovery.

Fact; Both coutries determines it to be a case of "friendly fire".

Accept it.

The "Moorer Commision" is not fair nor is it legally binding in any way, shape or form....

Try again.

Teetop
06-21-2009, 08:23 PM
Because you don't have one? :D

Ask your m*m...

thinker
06-21-2009, 08:26 PM
Woah, chief. Leave the yourmomma flames at the door here. If you can't come up with something worthwhile about me, you've lost. Draggin family into it ain't kosher here (or at least it wasn't the last time I was around, if it's changed, someone let me know)

thinker
06-21-2009, 08:29 PM
Fact; The Israeli's notified the US two hours after the attack. AND, offer assistance in recovery.

Fact; Both coutries determines it to be a case of "friendly fire".

Accept it.

The "Moorer Commision" is not fair nor is it legally binding in any way, shape or form....

Try again.

A naval inquiry that lasted less than 20% of the normal amount of time such inquires are conducted for does not count as a reputable investigation into the matter. One week is not NEARLY enough time to assess a situation this complex.

As for the Commission not being "fair"...you're accusing a Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, a MOH recipient, and several other flag officers of ethically compromising themselves? Let's be clear on that, because that's what you're saying if you're claiming the comission was somehow biased.

Teetop
06-21-2009, 08:30 PM
Woah, chief. Leave the yourmomma flames at the door here. If you can't come up with something worthwhile about me, you've lost. Draggin family into it ain't kosher here (or at least it wasn't the last time I was around, if it's changed, someone let me know)

And the "Moorer report/Commision" has what to do with what?

Nothing.

You sniped at me, I sniped back. Don't whine.

Teetop
06-21-2009, 08:31 PM
A naval inquiry that lasted less than 20% of the normal amount of time such inquires are conducted for does not count as a reputable investigation into the matter. One week is not NEARLY enough time to assess a situation this complex.

As for the Commission not being "fair"...you're accusing a Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, a MOH recipient, and several other flag officers of ethically compromising themselves? Let's be clear on that, because that's what you're saying if you're claiming the comission was somehow biased.

You can call it a commision, you can call it a report, you can call it the gospel fucking truth. It still doesn't make it the gospel truth.

:rolleyes:

thinker
06-21-2009, 08:34 PM
You sniped at me, I sniped back. Don't whine.

I asked a question. You flamed. I flamed back. You couldn't come up with anything about me, so you went even lower. Your grasp of events (or rather, lack thereof) is astounding, given that everything is posted in a semi permanent status.

And you didn't answer the question...are you saying that general officers of the US Navy ethically compromised themselves while members of the Moorer Commission? A simple yes or no will do.

Teetop
06-21-2009, 08:42 PM
I asked a question. You flamed. I flamed back. You couldn't come up with anything about me, so you went even lower. Your grasp of events (or rather, lack thereof) is astounding, given that everything is posted in a semi permanent status.

And you didn't answer the question...are you saying that general officers of the US Navy ethically compromised themselves while members of the Moorer Commission? A simple yes or no will do.

Yes. It has been proven that some testified to one thing and later "recollect" something else.

It was testified to that the Israeli jets were clearly marked, yet, one person said later that they weren't.

And answer my question;

What does the "Moorer Commision/Report" do?

Nothing.

There was one side to the "Commision/Report".

Yeah, that's the ticket....

:rolleyes:

thinker
06-21-2009, 08:46 PM
Yes, it has been proven that some testified to one thing and later "recollect" something else.

It was testified to that the Israeli jets were clearly marked, yet, one person said later that they weren't.

And answer my question;

What does the "Moorer Commision/Report" do?

Nothing.

There was one side to the "Commision/Report".

Yeah, that's the ticket....

:rolleyes:


You trying to be a lawyer or something? Because you can't answer a question straight out to save your life. I've already answered what the Commission does. It provides a clear, relatively concise, and reputable account of what happened that deserves official investigation. It's like meeting the standard of proof for a case to go to a jury instead of summary judgement. There are real, serious, and unaddressed claims in the Commission report and irregularities in the original Naval Court of Inquiry.

If people are really prevaricating, and it's not just you or other "one-sided" accounts saying that they are, then where's the harm in an official investigation? If they've prevaricated once, they'll do so again, especially under oath and in front of Congress.

Teetop
06-21-2009, 08:50 PM
You trying to be a lawyer or something? Because you can't answer a question straight out to save your life. I've already answered what the Commission does. It provides a clear, relatively concise, and reputable account of what happened that deserves official investigation. It's like meeting the standard of proof for a case to go to a jury instead of summary judgement. There are real, serious, and unaddressed claims in the Commission report and irregularities in the original Naval Court of Inquiry.

If people are really prevaricating, and it's not just you or other "one-sided" accounts saying that they are, then where's the harm in an official investigation? If they've prevaricated once, they'll do so again, especially under oath and in front of Congress.


Yes, it has been proven that...

Open your eyes.

:rolleyes:

thinker
06-21-2009, 08:55 PM
Open your eyes.

:rolleyes:

"Yes, it has been proven that some testified to one thing and later 'recollect' something else."

That doesn't answer whether you feel the members of the Commission ethically compromised themselves - that says you feel like some of the eyewitnesses gave false testimony. Again, not the question I asked.

To borrow your phrase (and use it accurately, where you don't)

Try again.

Teetop
06-21-2009, 09:00 PM
You trying to be a lawyer or something? Because you can't answer a question straight out to save your life. I've already nuanced what the Commission does. It provides a murky, relatively bullshit account, and an unreputable account of what happened that deserves unofficial investigation. It's like meeting the standard of proof for a case to go to a jury instead of summary judgement. There are real, serious, and unaddressed claims in the bullshit Commission report and irregularities in the original Naval Court of Inquiry.

If people are really prevaricating, and it's not just you or other "one-sided" accounts saying that they are, then where's the harm in an official investigation? If they've prevaricated once, they'll do so again, especially under oath and in front of Congress.

Top side, fixed.

As if the past investigations into this isn't enough....

How about accounting , while under oath, the lies some of the crew of the USS Liberty while not under oath?

Is it acceptable to lie, no matter what?

Two things I hate, liars and thieves.

The "Moorer Commision/Report" doesn't mean a thing. It is one-sided, with no testimony, or evedience from the other side.

So.....parade around the "Moorer Commision/Report" as the gospel truth. We all know it means nothing, but a one-sided "investigation".

:rolleyes:

Teetop
06-21-2009, 09:02 PM
"Yes, it has been proven that some testified to one thing and later 'recollect' something else."

That doesn't answer whether you feel the members of the Commission ethically compromised themselves - that says you feel like some of the eyewitnesses gave false testimony. Again, not the question I asked.

To borrow your phrase (and use it accurately, where you don't)

Try again.

Moron, you asked for a yes or no. I answered yes. What more do you want?

If you're that dense, not my friggin' problem. :cool:

thinker
06-21-2009, 09:08 PM
You're just another ad hom troll. I'm done with this thread until and if Odysseus comes, since he can actually hold a decent conversation and address points.

Thanks for playing, but you're about as effective at getting your points across and sourcing them up as a 1000+ post DUer. Perhaps you should go back? :)

CU has generally been a place that requires backup before bullshit, and you have it all mixed up.

Teetop
06-21-2009, 09:12 PM
You're just another ad hom troll. I'm done with this thread until and if Odysseus comes, since he can actually hold a decent conversation and address points.

Thanks for playing, but you're about as effective at getting your points across and sourcing them up as a 1000+ post DUer. Perhaps you should go back? :)

CU has generally been a place that requires backup before bullshit, and you have it all mixed up.

Yes, you do have it all mixed up.

I will answer my question to you, since you won't honestly.

The "Moorer Commision/Report" means nothing in the eyes of anyone, but those who are biased in the USS Liberty attack. Just as the "Moorer Commison/Report" was, you too, are one sided.

:D

Have a great evening.

thinker
06-21-2009, 09:16 PM
I've already answered what the Commission does. It provides a clear, relatively concise, and reputable account of what happened that deserves official investigation.

Me answering you in a method you don't like =/= answering dishonestly. The fact that you feel the need to slashedit my post just reinforces that. You can't hold a decent conversation with anyone that disagrees with you, can you? I suspect listening to non-Fox / drudge news makes you break out in hives...go find the echo chamber, you've been out longer than your standard hour.

Teetop
06-21-2009, 09:20 PM
Me answering you in a method you don't like =/= answering dishonestly. The fact that you feel the need to slashedit my post just reinforces that. You can't hold a decent conversation with anyone that disagrees with you, can you? I suspect listening to non-Fox / drudge news makes you break out in hives...go find the echo chamber, you've been out longer than your standard hour.


You're just another ad hom troll. I'm done with this thread until and if Odysseus comes, since he can actually hold a decent conversation and address points.

I thought you were done, until Ody got here.... :confused:

I have more things to do, outdoors. Have a great evening, thinker. Until next time. :)

thinker
06-21-2009, 09:21 PM
It's called tying up loose ends. Don't get drenched - it's pouring out there for me right now.

Odysseus
06-22-2009, 01:50 AM
WHERE?
Here: (http://thepatrioticgentleman.com/The-USS-Liberty-incident/The-USS-Liberty-incident1.html)
On December 17, 1987, the issue was officially closed by the two governments through an exchange of diplomatic notes. Israel also eventually paid nearly $13 million in humanitarian reparations to the United States and in compensation to the families of the victims.

Rofl. I was inviting Tee to actually source where he's getting the idea that compensation and apologies have been made by the Israeli government; to date, I've yet to see a reputable source that says they have, and what/how much. I have followed the history of the Liberty incident on and off for the last 5 to 6 years...I'm not particularly for or against either side. I just don't appreciate seeing unsubstantiated claims being made when so much weight (particularly in this thread) is being placed on the "facts" as people like to call it.
See above.
So, from the get go, ADM Moorer was wrong about Israel's motives for the attack. Now, Gator's response to this was to flail me for impugning ADM Moorer's honor. I submit that an officer can be mistaken and not be dishonorable. Gator, however, disagrees. In his eyes, ADM Moorer is incapable of error, and that I must be a shill for Israel.

Hur. I drewed u a piktur to halp u unnerstan bettar.

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t22/gravelythinking/BROWNNOSER.png
You know, this week I have an over-40 physical, and part of that entails the "rubber glove" probe. I really could've done without this image in my head before going through that.

That's the whole point - the only halfway decent investigation done by reputable semi-objective authorities HASN'T involved the government.

Considering that 34 US servicement lost their lives, over a hundred and fifty more were injured, and a state of the art US SIGINT asset was lost, doesn't that strike you as the least bit odd?

We have hearings every year over pissant little matters that have nowhere near as many implications on our national security/foreign policy as this does, and continues to have. The best point made by the Moorer Commission is that there is credible evidence out there that DOES need to be addressed in an official and public capacity, so that there aren't a bunch of competing claims out there that serve not only to harm the Israeli/US relationship, but to generate just one more conspiracy theory that the US government is or has been complicit in the murders of its' own personnel, at the behest of "Zionist" elements inside the US and in Israel. It's a load of horseshit, but Israel is too scared to admit they fucked up in a public capacity and our government is too spineless to make them face the music.
My 0.02
Except that the Moorer Commission wasn't an investigation. First, keep in mind that ADM Moorer wasn't involved in any aspect of the Liberty case during his tenure as Chief of Naval OPS and had no knowledge of the events until years after the fact, and even then, he did not have access to materials that were subsequently declassified, mostly because of Jay Cristol, who filed a Freedom of Information Act request and got access to the archives of the NSA, CIA, Navy and State Dept (Cristol also conducted extensive interviews with anyone associated with the Liberty who would talk to him, including CPT McGonagle, which is why Gator loathes Cristol, because he does have the facts, and his book and website are full of information that Gator cannot respond to). ADM Moorer's commission had no official standing, no subpeona powers and had the same problem that he claimed that the Naval Board of Inquiry had, that it interviewed no Israelis (making it simply a rehash of the conspiracy theories), but more importantly, ADM Moorer was operating without informatiobn which disproved his theories as to Israeli motives. ADM Moorer stated that he believed that Israel sought to disable the Liberty in order to prevent the US from finding out about the impending attack on the Golan heights. But ADM Moorer didn't know that diplomatic cables that were subsequently declassified showed that Israel had informed Washington, through the embassy in Tel Aviv, of their intent to attack Syria (and remember that Syria was already a combatant) before the attack. When that theory failed to hold water, ADM Moorer stated that Israel planned to sink the Liberty and blame Egypt, in the hopes of drawing the US into the war on Israel's side. That also doesn't fly, because by June 8 Israel had already destroyed the Egyptian air force and had taken most of the Sinai. They didn't need American help to win the war and Israel never denied responsibility for the attack. Had they planned to sink the ship in order to secure an American alliance, they'd have done so, since the presence of witnesses undermines the whole plan. In other words, none of ADM Moorer's theories regarding Israel's intent are valid.

And, think about this. Imagine that there were an investigation with this congress and this president. Do you think for one second that it wouldn't turn into a circus?


You're just another ad hom troll. I'm done with this thread until and if Odysseus comes, since he can actually hold a decent conversation and address points.

You make me feel all warm and fuzzy... Must... not... hug... Thinker... Must ... keep... control... :eek:

djones520
06-22-2009, 01:59 AM
I'm hurt. I'm not worth responding to. :(

Odysseus
06-22-2009, 02:32 AM
I'm hurt. I'm not worth responding to. :(

You made some really good points, which is probably why Gator isn't responding to you. The two T's seem to be duking it out mano a mano and probably didn't see you over there by yourself. It can be tough to get noticed here, which may be why Gator spews the way that he does. It's all just a cry for attention. :D

djones520
06-22-2009, 03:08 AM
I was just kidding really. I've done my damage here, gotten Gator riled enough. :D

Sonnabend
06-22-2009, 08:43 AM
Ancient history.

Old news. God this has been done to death....:rolleyes:

Odysseus
06-22-2009, 10:27 AM
I was just kidding really. I've done my damage here, gotten Gator riled enough. :D

On the scale of difficulty, getting Gator riled is up there with getting a reporter to fawn over Obama. It's a default position. :D

patriot45
06-22-2009, 11:13 AM
So, are you guys going to read the new book coming out about this travesty? Thats how this OP started!




A new book that takes a long, hard look at an Israeli attack on the U.S. spy ship USS Liberty in June 1967 draws in part on reporting and commentary that linked the international tensions and the Shreveport-Bossier City area


He also delves into the inner workings of politicians and military leaders in Washington and Tel Aviv, and shares new research in which reveals that at least one key Israeli pilot knew the ship was American.

lacarnut
06-22-2009, 11:32 AM
So, are you guys going to read the new book coming out about this travesty? Thats how this OP started!

No, I will wait for the regurgiated version from CU members.:eek::eek::eek:

Teetop
06-22-2009, 11:33 AM
So, are you guys going to read the new book coming out about this travesty? Thats how this OP started!

Although, we disagree on the USS Liberty, patriot. I would probably read this book.

I will suggest a book for you. I read this book in the early eighties.

The Spymasters of Israel. (http://www.amazon.com/SPYMASTERS-ISRAEL-Stewart-Steven/dp/0345299108) A very good book.

patriot45
06-22-2009, 11:54 AM
Although, we disagree on the USS Liberty, patriot. I would probably read this book.

I will suggest a book for you. I read this book in the early eighties.

The Spymasters of Israel. (http://www.amazon.com/SPYMASTERS-ISRAEL-Stewart-Steven/dp/0345299108) A very good book.

I'll put it on my ever growing list, I still need to pick up Levins new book, Liberty and Tyranny.

Molon Labe
06-22-2009, 11:56 AM
So, are you guys going to read the new book coming out about this travesty? Thats how this OP started!

I'm going to. I've parused over the numerous threads gator had on the subject and it seems theres a bit more to it than an "accident".

Too many people think that opposition to AIPAC influence and questioning the Israeli government is anything less than honest is akin to Anti Semitism. It's how the Republican party has weeded out many great paleoconservatives who reconginized the problem decades ago, but were blacklisted because they dared speak out and condemn it.
Great OP and glad you had the Kahunas to do so.

gator
06-22-2009, 12:23 PM
Fact; Both coutries determines it to be a case of "friendly fire".



The goddamn Israelis are lying bastards and no decent person would ever believe anything they say.

Almost everything you have said in this thread is incorrect but you are correct in that the US determined that the incident was in error. Even an old blind hog like you will find an acorn every once in awhile. However, (and this is a big however) some facts came out after the investigation to lead men such as Adm Thomas Moorer, Charirman, Joint Chief of Staff and some other very knowledgeable and reputable men to determine that the investigation was incomplete and there was a directed conclusion mandated by LBJ in an effort to appease the pro Israel lobby.

One of the most damaging pieces of information came from Captain Ward Boston, who served on the Board of Inquiry. He very forcefully said in a sworn affidavit that the Board ignored the real facts and issued the report LBJ demanded. Other high ranking Naval officers, whose reputations are above reproach, went on record stating that LBJ indicated he didn’t care if the Israelis did it on purpose or not he wasn’t going to do anything to “his little buddies”. I posted the quotes and references on this in another thread. You, like Odysseys and the other pro Israel dickheads, ignored it because you have no intentions of wanting to know the truth.

Also, there has been quite a bit of information from credible sources that surfaced after the attack that indicates the Board did not review all the pertinent information. Information that would have led to a different conclusion.

In 2003 Adm Moorer did his own independent investigation and determined that the original Board of Inquiry was a sham and that a real investigation needs to be done. I and other American patriots agree. Only the Israelis apologists disagree. It makes you wonder what the agenda of the pro Israel apologist really is all about. Do the sonofabitches just want to protect Israel or do they want justice for the crewmembers of the USS Liberty? I think they are traitors to the US myself. Any assholes that wants to give a pass on a country that slaughtered 34 of our military people are low life scumbags, don’t you think?

The best analogy I can think of relates to the 2004 Presidential election. In that election John Kerry presented himself as an American hero and produced his military records as proof. As far as the US government was concerned John Kerry was a hero and wounded combat veteran.

The Democrats pointed to the official US record as positive proof that Kerry was a hero.

However, that is not the end of the story. It seems that the men that served with Kerry knew that he was a sham and a coward. They exposed the real story of Kerry in a book and told stories of his cowardice. They told the real story of his awards and it was much different than the official US record.

When Kerry’s cowardice was exposed the Democrats would not believe the Swift Boat Veterans because to do so would prove that Kerry was really unfit for duty. Even thought the evidence was overwhelming.

The pro Israel shits in this country like you and Odysseys and others are unwilling to admit that there is enough evidence to do another Board of Inquiry and a Congressional investigation simply because you are so goddamn afraid your Israelis suck buddies will be found out. That is a fate worse than death for any Israel lovers. The last thing they want is for the treachery and brutality of the Israelis to be exposed to the world.

All you are doing is running from the truth to protect a filthy foreign country. A country that brutally slaughtered Americans. That is pathetic and a great example of the mindset that puts the welfare of Israel ahead of justice for American servicemen. It is disgusting to me and I think just about every decent American.

There is nothing wrong with adopting the recommendations of the Moorer Independent Commission. I think the outcome is that a terrorist state will be exposed and that is always a good thing, isn’t it? At the very least we will do right by the Veterans of the USS Liberty. Wouldn't you much rather do what is right for our veterans than to appease some goddamn Middle East country?