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satanica
07-24-2009, 10:50 AM
There seems to be some confusion, so I am going to start a thread were we can discuss the issue.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:H.R.+3200:

The basics...

1. If you have a private policy right now and the bill gets signed on Monday, you will NOT be able to alter your private policy in any way. This is because if you keep your current policy and just alter it, it still would not fall under the new rules and guidlines, and the new rules and guidlines is something you WANT in your policy. But if you DO want to keep it as is ...You can.

2. "What rules and guidlines" ..good question, the bill isn't done yet, but here are a few.

- The insurance companies CANNOT deny coverage when you have been paying for it.
- The insurance companies CANNOT deny you for a pre-existing condition.
- The insurance companies CANNOT pick and chose the healthiest people and just cover them

3. Employer-sponsored plans will have five years to get in compliance with the new regulations, more than enough time to comply.

4. If you want to keep your existing health coverage you can, if you want to change to another private policy then you can. If want to ignore the public option offered by the government, you can. But if you want a choice, then you will go shopping at the NIE (National Insurance Exchange) ..one giant outlet where everybody competes for your business, following the same rules and regulations... on a level playing field.

The Private insurers will be there along side the public plan, you can compare their coverage and prices and make a rational decesion based on the facts before you.

And for those who are confused about the "page 16 fear mongering" by Michelle Bachman .. Here is teh actual text from Page 16...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The actual text...OF PAGE 16


(a) Grandfathered Health Insurance Coverage Defined- Subject to the succeeding provisions of this section, for purposes of establishing acceptable coverage under this division, the term `grandfathered health insurance coverage' means individual health insurance coverage that is offered and in force and effect before the first day of Y1 if the following conditions are met:
This means that if you like your insurance you can keep it.

(2) LIMITATION ON CHANGES IN TERMS OR CONDITIONS- Subject to paragraph (3) and except as required by law, the issuer does not change any of its terms or conditions, including benefits and cost-sharing, from those in effect as of the day before the first day of Y1.

This means if you DO CHOSE to keep your insurance, you can't modify it.

(1) IN GENERAL- Individual health insurance coverage that is not grandfathered health insurance coverage under subsection (a) may only be offered on or after the first day of Y1 as an Exchange-participating health benefits plan.

And this means if you leave your job and lose your coverage, or if you just want to change coverage, you have to go to the NIE to buy new coverage. This coverage can be private or public.

REAPEAT ...THIS NEW COVERAGE CAN BE PUBLIC OR PRIVATE, THE NIE (NATIONAL INSURANCE EXCHANGE) WILL BE A CLEARING HOUSE FOR HEALTH INSURANCE, YOU CAN CHOSE A PRIVATE OR PUBLIC PLAN .....BUT YOU DO HAVE TO GO TO THE (NIE) TO GET IT.

YOU WILL BE FORCED TO GO TO THE NIE, BUT YOU WILL NOT BE FORCED TO BUY A PUBLIC PLAN

linda22003
07-24-2009, 10:57 AM
This could actually be a useful thread, IF we all manage to behave ourselves. I'm very uncomfortable with not being able to make any alterations to a private plan. I don't want my insurance format or coverage to change. I'd like to extend other options to those who don't have insurance, but I'm fine with mine the way it is.

In fact, if I changed anything, it would be to have a higher copay for my doctor visits, since I'm healthy and don't go very often. In exchange I'd be happier to pay a slightly lower premium in each pay period. However, that would count as an "alteration" to my current plan, which for some reason this bill does not want to allow me to have.

satanica
07-24-2009, 11:02 AM
This could actually be a useful thread, IF we all manage to behave ourselves. I'm very uncomfortable with not being able to make any alterations to a private plan. I don't want my insurance format or coverage to change. I'd like to extend other options to those who don't have insurance, but I'm fine with mine the way it is.

In fact, if I changed anything, it would be to have a higher copay for my doctor visits, since I'm healthy and don't go very often. In exchange I'd be happier to pay a slightly lower premium in each pay period. However, that would count as an "alteration" to my current plan, which for some reason this bill does not want to allow me to have.

Too late Sonnebend has moved it and I don't post in SLT when this is done.

This was going to be a good thread, but the Aussie can't handle a debate.

It's a shame, it really doesn't have to be this way, but here we are.

In the next breath, I will be accused of not wanting to debate.

Getting old and boring to be honest. Can we move this back and have a debate ?

stsinner
07-24-2009, 11:02 AM
What you Liberal jerks don't understand is that HEALTH INSURANCE IS NOT A RIGHT!!!! If you're too broke to afford health insurance, it's not everyone else's responsibility to give it to you, and this is why the "Public option" is so offensive to those of us who love the Constitution!! There are poor people who cannot afford things, and that's the way it should be! To think that a bum or a welfare mother should have the same level of anything as a working, middle class or rich person is ludicrous!!!

Your life is the culmination of all the decisions you've made along the way, and if you're too damned poor to provide for yourself, then it's not my responsibility to do it for you..

Obama is trying to make it so that poor people aren't poor, but not by putting them to work-he's trying to do it by giving them everyone else's stuff!!! Bullshit!!!!

There is no health care crisis-there is not one American who does not have access to health care if they need it-not one!!

Sonnabend
07-24-2009, 11:03 AM
Too late Sonnebend has moved it and I don't post in SLT when this is done.

This was going to be a good thread, but the Aussie can't handle a debate.

This is where your garbage, and you, belong.

linda22003
07-24-2009, 11:13 AM
Too late Sonnebend has moved it and I don't post in SLT when this is done.

This was going to be a good thread, but the Aussie can't handle a debate.

It's a shame, it really doesn't have to be this way, but here we are.

In the next breath, I will be accused of not wanting to debate.

Getting old and boring to be honest. Can we move this back and have a debate ?

The thread is still entirely visible. I don't think the category matters. Will you really go for style over substance on an important topic? Fortunately, we're getting time to digest the substance of this bill - which is not what the sponsors of it had in mind at all.

satanica
07-24-2009, 11:13 AM
This is where your garbage, and you, belong.

**sigh, shakes head in disbelief**

It didn't have to be this way.

Sonnabend
07-24-2009, 11:16 AM
It didn't have to be this way.

If you want to know the cause, look in a mirror. You are responsible for your own actions.

If you dont get that, then that's too fucking bad. You have a foul mouith and an even fouler attitude towards everyone here.

Deal with it.

Molon Labe
07-24-2009, 11:18 AM
There seems to be some confusion, so I am going to start a thread were we can discuss the issue.

Blah blah bull shat follows..........

Link please.

I'm doubting you've actually read that monstrosity to even know what it says. Just like every other congress member.

enslaved1
07-24-2009, 11:22 AM
**sigh, shakes head in disbelief**

It didn't have to be this way.

You made your bed, now you get to lie in it.

Let's assume what you say about the plan is true. Let's say Obamacare is the answer to the issues we have in our health insurance sector. Why don't the Dems and Obama want to put the bill on the table for full scrutiny by Congress, the press and the public? Why rush it through with as little detail as possible, planning to fill in the details later?

Sonnabend
07-24-2009, 11:25 AM
Oh and satanica, your dismissive attitude towards me based on the spurious pretext of where I live hasnt won you any Brownie points either.

A dingo is a dog

Australia does not have and never has had a President.

Dont go calling others "ill informed" when you yourself have demonstrated a woefully deficient understanding of anything else other than your own twisted agenda.

Save me the wounded pride, you act this way, you get treated in kind. I find it hilarious that I know more of your nation, than you do of the rest of the world.

If you know anything at all.

Molon Labe
07-24-2009, 11:25 AM
You made your bed, now you get to lie in it.

Let's assume what you say about the plan is true. Let's say Obamacare is the answer to the issues we have in our health insurance sector. Why don't the Dems and Obama want to put the bill on the table for full scrutiny by Congress, the press and the public? Why rush it through with as little detail as possible, planning to fill in the details later?

Yep. I'd like to see a new rule that states that every member who wants to be eligible must be present for the entire reading of the bill.
What do you think that might do to the deliberative process?

enslaved1
07-24-2009, 11:40 AM
Yep. I'd like to see a new rule that states that every member who wants to be eligible must be present for the entire reading of the bill.
What do you think that might do to the deliberative process?

What? Expect them poor politicians to take time out of their busy schedules to DO THE FREAKING JOB THEY WERE ELECTED TO DO? :eek:

I recall hearing some complaints that Clinton got NAFTA shoved through in a similar way, allowing the text of the bill another 1000+ page document to be viewed in only on room before voting on it. That's what happens when a group runs on emotion not fact.

patriot45
07-24-2009, 11:40 AM
Yep. I'd like to see a new rule that states that every member who wants to be eligible must be present for the entire reading of the bill.
What do you think that might do to the deliberative process?

Yeah, and barney frank has to do the reading!!

Gingersnap
07-24-2009, 11:51 AM
This is a perfectly legitimate thread topic. Devil guy needs to add a link but other than that it's a worthy topic of discussion. I can't understand why it's in Lib Tricks.

Like Linda Numbers, I like my insurance coverage. I know first hand how Medicare and Medicaid operate and I don't want them.

I have yet to see a really clear explanation of how all this would operate. Does anybody have any good links for this?

stsinner
07-24-2009, 11:54 AM
Here's one interesting link-probably not what you were asking for, but I found the article interesting:

http://www.examiner.com/x-17687-Sacramento-County-Government-Examiner~y2009m7d23-Obamas-shattered-dream-The-chaos-over-the-universal-health-care-bill

Gingersnap
07-24-2009, 12:00 PM
That's an interesting article. And sort of creepy - at least part about physician training. :eek:

I'm still looking for some of the more basic information, though.

stsinner
07-24-2009, 12:10 PM
That's an interesting article. And sort of creepy - at least part about physician training. :eek:

I'm still looking for some of the more basic information, though.

I thought this was very unnerving:

"....meaning that it won’t be high scores on tests that create doctors but the color of their skin. This hidden truth has many up in arms, considering that this bill could heighten racial tension while decreasing the quality in health care since ethnicity will be the only reason that allows people into medical school. "

satanica
07-24-2009, 12:16 PM
This is a perfectly legitimate thread topic. Devil guy needs to add a link but other than that it's a worthy topic of discussion. I can't understand why it's in Lib Tricks.

Like Linda Numbers, I like my insurance coverage. I know first hand how Medicare and Medicaid operate and I don't want them.

I have yet to see a really clear explanation of how all this would operate. Does anybody have any good links for this?

I thought we could hash it out at the same time congress was.

This way it helps keep people informed in what the bill really does for them, and doesn't do for them.

I was looking for input and debate, but only got name calling and insults.

Lets try again, Link now provided.

satanica
07-24-2009, 12:21 PM
Yep. I'd like to see a new rule that states that every member who wants to be eligible must be present for the entire reading of the bill.
What do you think that might do to the deliberative process?

We know where you stand.

Your view is that the bill violates the law, it's criminal.

You also think that NASA and the Department of Education violate the law and should NOT exist.

How can I respect your view on HC when the debate starts with....

" The bill violates the law and the US constitution, it IS criminal"

It's a non starter.

stsinner
07-24-2009, 12:22 PM
We know where you stand.

Your view is that the bill violates the law, it's criminal.

You also think that NASA and the Department of Education violate the law and should NOT exist.

How can I respect your view on HC when the debate starts with....

" The bill violates the law and the US constitution, it IS criminal"

It's a non starter.

How is it a non-starter when it's true?

Lars1701a
07-24-2009, 12:22 PM
We know where you stand.

Your view is that the bill violates the law, it's criminal.

You also think that NASA and the Department of Education violate the law and should NOT exist.

How can I respect your view on HC when the debate starts with....

" The bill violates the law and the US constitution, it IS criminal"

It's a non starter.

There is no debate with you untill you answer our questions.

Lars1701a
07-24-2009, 12:29 PM
Why is obama bankrupting this country to pay for HC for the lazy and/or illegal immigrants?

Gingersnap
07-24-2009, 12:29 PM
I guess I don't understand why I would have to lose my coverage if I wanted to make any changes to my current policy. Why include that provision if, as Obama said, I will get more "choices"? :confused:

Lars1701a
07-24-2009, 12:33 PM
I guess I don't understand why I would have to lose my coverage if I wanted to make any changes to my current policy. Why include that provision if, as Obama said, I will get more "choices"? :confused:

Due to having a life I didnt read the HC bill but is what the say is true? if you make changes to your current plan you have to opt in to the Gov plan?

linda22003
07-24-2009, 12:33 PM
I guess I don't understand why I would have to lose my coverage if I wanted to make any changes to my current policy.

Because that's what would force you into the public system. That's the only rationale I can come up with.
I brought that up in my first post and the answer I received was that he wouldn't post because Sonna had moved this to a category he didn't like. That's the only explanation I've gotten.

stsinner
07-24-2009, 12:37 PM
There is no way that a private industry could ever compete with a government entitlement program!! There's just too many lazy, soulless, prideless losers who will avail themselves of it, and the private industry will shrivel up, and the gov't knows it. We're not the proud people we once were. Our only hope is to defeat the un-American bill entirely.

Gingersnap
07-24-2009, 12:50 PM
Because that's what would force you into the public system. That's the only rationale I can come up with.

I brought that up in my first post and the answer I received was that he wouldn't post because Sonna had moved this to a category he didn't like. That's the only explanation I've gotten.

If this is true, surely Americans would go nuts. I know of nobody who would voluntarily be on a Medicaid managed care plan. :eek:

Lars1701a
07-24-2009, 01:19 PM
If this is true, surely Americans would go nuts. I know of nobody who would voluntarily be on a Medicaid managed care plan. :eek:

In this day and age? sure as shit there are to many people who want Government to take care of them. Thats the only way Obama can stay in office if he makes so many people dependent on the Gov that they would never vote for someone who will cut their benny's

stsinner
07-24-2009, 01:23 PM
Leftist regimes all over the world hold onto power using health care as a threat, "Don't vote for Conservatives because they'll take away your health care..."

BadCat
07-24-2009, 01:37 PM
Here's a plausible theory...

Our CORRUPT politicians (both parties) have spent the nation into a hole so deep light doesn't reach us. The baby boomers are starting to retire, with more retiring every year.

NO WAY IN HELL can they afford the SS, Medicare, Medicaid entitlements these people were forced to pay into.

An easy way out is to kill these people off as quickly as possible, by rationing their health care as they age.

Gingersnap
07-24-2009, 01:50 PM
I'm moving this back to GD. I want to hear what people think about this.

satanica
07-24-2009, 02:10 PM
There is no way that a private industry could ever compete with a government entitlement program!!

Who would ever care ? ...Oh ya, the giant insurance empires ..I guess somebody has to stand up for them.

If the government can offer better coverage for cheaper, then we should all be for it. If you admit the insurance companies can't compete with the government, then you admit the government will be offering a better plan. And if the insurance companines don't lower their prices and compete, they will die a horrible death...I am fine with that. This is not about a business, it's about our healthcare system

After all, people are not going to flock to something that is WORSE that what they have now.

Do you trade down when you go get a car or a cell phone ? ...of course not, you want something better.

The problem we have is that OUR healthcare has become a business to the insurance companies, they make money by signing people up and then denying them coverage to maximize profits. Why anybody would stand in their defense is beyond me.

Lars1701a
07-24-2009, 02:14 PM
Who would ever care ? ...Oh ya, the giant insurance empires ..I guess somebody has to stand up for them.

If the government can offer better coverage for cheaper, then we should all be for it. If you admit the insurance companies can't compete with the government, then you admit the government will be offering a better plan. And if the insurance companines don't lower their prices and compete, they will die a horrible death...I am fine with that. This is not about a business, it's about our healthcare system

After all, people are not going to flock to something that is WORSE that what they have now.

Do you trade down when you go get a car or a cell phone ? ...of course not, you want something better.

The problem we have is that OUR healthcare has become a business to the insurance companies, they make money by signing people up and then denying them coverage to maximize profits. Why anybody would stand in their defense is beyond me.

Of course the Gov can underbid any private insurance company but you will get substandard care, crappy wait times etc.

I want a profit motive in health insurance good doctors dont want to work for nothing.

BadCat
07-24-2009, 02:19 PM
After all, people are not going to flock to something that is WORSE that what they hav

Of course they won't.
That's why the Dims are going to FORCE people into it.
Nobody in their right mind would voluntarily sign up for it.

satanica
07-24-2009, 02:21 PM
Another importmant issue is...

Who makes the call on your treatment.

Under this plan the decesion would be made between you and your doctor. Not by an insurance adjuster who has orders to deny as much coverage as he can so they can maximize profits.

satanica
07-24-2009, 02:22 PM
Of course they won't.
That's why the Dims are going to FORCE people into it.
Nobody in their right mind would voluntarily sign up for it.

How ?

I don't suppose you will break habit and back up one of you absurd claims ?

Jfor
07-24-2009, 02:22 PM
Who would ever care ? ...Oh ya, the giant insurance empires ..I guess somebody has to stand up for them.

If the government can offer better coverage for cheaper, then we should all be for it. If you admit the insurance companies can't compete with the government, then you admit the government will be offering a better plan. And if the insurance companines don't lower their prices and compete, they will die a horrible death...I am fine with that. This is not about a business, it's about our healthcare system

After all, people are not going to flock to something that is WORSE that what they have now.

Do you trade down when you go get a car or a cell phone ? ...of course not, you want something better.

The problem we have is that OUR healthcare has become a business to the insurance companies, they make money by signing people up and then denying them coverage to maximize profits. Why anybody would stand in their defense is beyond me.


Please tell me where it is the government's responsibility to provide insurance for private citizens? Please tell me who is going to pay for this insurance. Please tell me why I have to pay for somebody who doesn't feel like making something of themselves to be able to afford whatever they want or need?

Lars1701a
07-24-2009, 02:23 PM
Another importmant issue is...

Who makes the call on your treatment.

Under this plan the decesion would be made between you and your doctor. Not by an insurance adjuster who has orders to deny as much coverage as he can so they can maximize profits.

Ya trying we will see if that happens when a 100 year old person need a pace maker and the Gov tells him to take a pain pill but by then it will be to late to change it.


Do you feel safe with the Government have access to your medical records? I sure as hell dont and please dont say the wont.

wilbur
07-24-2009, 02:25 PM
Although I am one eagerly admits the workings of the medical system and the real world implications of bills like this and others are largely over my head, I will say this:

It seems to me the insurance feedback loop needs to be broken and the companies really, just literally need to be wiped off the face of the planet, like the unholy scourges they are. We pay huge insurance premiums, to pay the huge doctor bills... that are made unaffordable because doctors have to pay such huge malpractice premiums. The whole medical industry is little more than a prop to support insurance companies.

Any change that leaves the insurance companies (aka "whores") still standing... well, I don't see much improving. I don't know if this bill will be a good step in that direction or not.

satanica
07-24-2009, 02:26 PM
Please tell me where it is the government's responsibility to provide insurance for private citizens?

It's not their responsibility. But it's a good idea, like NASA and the CIA.



Please tell me who is going to pay for this insurance.

Bush doubled the debt, and the republicans never asked how it would be paid for. But if you must know who will pay for it, it is the same people who pay for everything in our nation ...the American taxpayers.

Did I really need to tell you this ?


Please tell me why I have to pay for somebody who doesn't feel like making something of themselves to be able to afford whatever they want or need?

You don't. Who gave you that crazy idea ? ...Rush ? ..Hannity ?

Lars1701a
07-24-2009, 02:27 PM
Although I am one eagerly admits the workings of the medical system and the real world implications of bills like this and others are largely over my head, I will say this:

It seems to me the insurance feedback loop needs to be broken and the companies really, just literally need to be wiped off the face of the planet, like the unholy scourges they are. We pay huge insurance premiums, to pay the huge doctor bills... that are made unaffordable because doctors have to pay such huge insurance premiums. The whole medical industry is a prop to support insurance companies.

Any change that leaves the insurance companies (aka "whores") still standing... well, I don't see much improving.

I think they also need to cap damages received from law suits as well but do you think obama will back that up?

I doubt it.

Jfor
07-24-2009, 02:28 PM
Although I am one eagerly admits the workings of the medical system and the real world implications of bills like this and others are largely over my head, I will say this:

It seems to me the insurance feedback loop needs to be broken and the companies really, just literally need to be wiped off the face of the planet, like the unholy scourges they are. We pay huge insurance premiums, to pay the huge doctor bills... that are made unaffordable because doctors have to pay such huge insurance premiums. The whole medical industry is a prop to support insurance companies.

Any change that leaves the insurance companies (aka "whores") still standing... well, I don't see much improving.

What is the underlying cause of the huge insurance premiums doctors have to pay? What is the reason? It is because malpractice insurance costs so much money thanks to trial lawyers who get folks to sue for stupid stuff.

satanica
07-24-2009, 02:29 PM
Any change that leaves the insurance companies (aka "whores") still standing... well, I don't see much improving. I don't know if this bill will be a good step in that direction or not.

A public option would make the insurance companies lower their prices to compete or they will collapse.

Jfor
07-24-2009, 02:31 PM
It's not their responsibility. But it's a good idea, like NASA and the CIA.

Where in the US Constitution does it state that the federal government has the power to offer helath insurance?




Bush doubled the debt, and the republicans never asked how it would be paid for. But if you must know who will pay for it, it is the same people who pay for everything in our nation ...the American taxpayers.

Did I really need to tell you this ?

Bush is not the president and as has been stated before by numerous members here, most, if not all of us here were screaming about his spending.




You don't. Who gave you that crazy idea ? ...Rush ? ..Hannity ?

Umm... the government is going to force me to pay for these folks who can't or won't get insurance by raising my taxes.

Zafod
07-24-2009, 02:32 PM
781 posts so far, 31 posts per day.... do you even have a fucking job?

Lars1701a
07-24-2009, 02:32 PM
Where in the US Constitution does it state that the federal government has the power to offer helath insurance?





Bush is not the president and as has been stated before by numerous members here, most, if not all of us here were screaming about his spending.





Umm... the government is going to force me to pay for these folks who can't or won't get insurance by raising my taxes.

Not to mention paying for illegal aliens and bums like satanic.

satanica
07-24-2009, 02:33 PM
Where in the US Constitution does it state that the federal government has the power to offer helath insurance?

It's right next to where it says they have a power to form NASA, the FBI, the CIA, and the Department of Education.



Umm... the government is going to force me to pay for these folks who can't or won't get insurance by raising my taxes.

Really ? ...what taxes will you pay that will cover my healthcare ?

Jfor
07-24-2009, 02:34 PM
The 10th Amendment states: The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.


Therefor, this whole health care debate is state's rights issue and not a federal issue.

BadCat
07-24-2009, 02:34 PM
It's not their responsibility. But it's a good idea, like NASA and the CIA.




Bush doubled the debt, and the republicans never asked how it would be paid for. But if you must know who will pay for it, it is the same people who pay for everything in our nation ...the American taxpayers.

Did I really need to tell you this ?



You don't. Who gave you that crazy idea ? ...Rush ? ..Hannity ?

And you're not one of them.
Why should we pay for your insurance?
If you died tomorrow, we'd throw a party.

satanica
07-24-2009, 02:34 PM
781 posts so far, 31 posts per day.... do you even have a fucking job?

No, I collect unemployment checks.

Apocalypse
07-24-2009, 02:35 PM
Hey Sant. Expane this!

http://www.pollingreport.com/images/ObamaJob.GIF

Why is his approval continualy dropping, and his disapproval rising.

Also take note, that massive drop at the end, coensides with his Socialist Heathcare Rant he did the other night.

Why did it suddenly drop from that?

Jfor
07-24-2009, 02:35 PM
It's right next to where it says they have a power to form NASA, the FBI, the CIA, and the Department of Education.




Really ? ...what taxes will you pay that will cover my healthcare ?


You really are dumb aren't ya? My income taxes are going to increase. Prices on everything are going to go up because corporate taxes will go up therefor prices will go up.

satanica
07-24-2009, 02:35 PM
Why should we pay for your insurance?


Who said you had to pay for my health coverage ?

Lars1701a
07-24-2009, 02:35 PM
Hey Sant. Expane this!

http://www.pollingreport.com/images/ObamaJob.GIF

Why is his approval continualy dropping, and his disapproval rising.

Also take note, that massive drop at the end, considers with his Socialist Heathcare Rant he did the other night.

Why did it suddenly drop from that?

In his world that poll just means he is getting more popular. :rolleyes:

satanica
07-24-2009, 02:36 PM
You really are dumb aren't ya? My income taxes are going to increase. Prices on everything are going to go up because corporate taxes will go up therefor prices will go up.

Why will your income tax go up ? ...thats not in the plan ?

Zafod
07-24-2009, 02:36 PM
No, I collect unemployment checks.

figures....your a bum. And not because you collect unemployment but because you post an average of 32 posts per day instead of looking for work. You are pathetic.

Lars1701a
07-24-2009, 02:36 PM
Who said you had to pay for my health coverage ?

When you get booted into gov run health care thats when we will have to pay for yours.

Jfor
07-24-2009, 02:37 PM
Who said you had to pay for my health coverage ?

Because it is going to be paid for by the government. You really are a freak aren't you? Taxes will pay for it. I pay taxes. Every producer in this country pays taxes. It's folks like you who are the drain on this economy.

BadCat
07-24-2009, 02:37 PM
Who said you had to pay for my health coverage ?

Who do you THINK is going to pay for it, dumass?

People with jobs who pay taxes, unless you believe that absolute bullshit about only taxing the "rich".

Jfor
07-24-2009, 02:37 PM
Why will your income tax go up ? ...thats not in the plan ?

Then tell me how they are going to pay for this?

Zafod
07-24-2009, 02:39 PM
Then tell me how they are going to pay for this?

The same way his wellfare gets paid...magic elves.

satanica
07-24-2009, 02:41 PM
Taxes will pay for it. I pay taxes..

Yes, but that not what you said...


You really are dumb aren't ya? My income taxes are going to increase

Why would you income tax increase ? ...where does this bill call for your taxes to increase ?

It's a simple question.

satanica
07-24-2009, 02:42 PM
Then tell me how they are going to pay for this?

With tax money.

Can you tell me where the bill says your income tax will increase ?

BadCat
07-24-2009, 02:42 PM
Yes, but that not what you said...



Why would you income tax increase ? ...where does this bill call for your taxes to increase ?

It's a simple question.

Because THEY CANNOT PAY FOR IT the way they are saying they are going to pay for it.

They're politicians - Dimocrat politicians - socialism at any cost.

enslaved1
07-24-2009, 02:42 PM
Simple answer to the whole health care/insurance debaucle. If we want to fix the issues that are there in our health CARE system, get the government out of it. If we want to fix the issues in our health INSURANCE system, get the government and the lawyers out of it.

Take car insurance. It is not mandated for everyone. Banks tell you you have to carry it to cover the loan on the car. States have various levels of required coverage. If you don't have a car, you don't have to pay for car insurance. No federal government mandates that car insurance has to cover oil changes, tire rotations, engine overhauls, ect. Lots of competition in the car insurance field too. They have the problems with the lawyers involved, but so does everything else. I've got a less than stellar driving record, and minimum coverage runs $100-120 a month. I can't tell you what health insurance would cost me, because I haven't had it for years, but the only good deals on it I've had in the past was when I worked for corporate packing plants who had hundreds of thousands of employees involved in the deal.

Why is it with all the leaps and bounds made in every field imaginable when capitolism and competition are present, and negligable progressess in same fields under socialism/communism/totalitarianism, why do libs keep insisting that removing monetary motiviation is going to shoot the world into some kind of utopia? Health care and coverage will not get better under the government. Period. Look at our schools. Knowledge and learning have steadily dropped as more government interference came in. Look at Amtrack. The Post Office. All evidence of big government at work. Look at our government itself. A mess of beuracracy and legaleese that it's own inhabitants can't understand. I don't want those people taking care of my health.

Edit:wow a lot happened while I wrote that :eek:

Jfor
07-24-2009, 02:43 PM
Yes, but that not what you said...



Why would you income tax increase ? ...where does this bill call for your taxes to increase ?

It's a simple question.

It's a simple answer, the cost of everything will go up because more taxes will be levied. You really don't understand how the real world works do ya? When you grow up and get a job, you have to pay taxes on everything.

Apocalypse
07-24-2009, 02:45 PM
Hey Sant. Expane this!

http://www.pollingreport.com/images/ObamaJob.GIF

Why is his approval continualy dropping, and his disapproval rising.

Also take note, that massive drop at the end, coensides with his Socialist Heathcare Rant he did the other night.

Why did it suddenly drop from that?
Dude come on, I want you to explain why he is dropping in the polls.

And Explain why did he take a hit after the Heathcare the other night.

You have said you answer all questions asked, but you are not answering this one.

satanica
07-24-2009, 02:45 PM
Take car insurance. It is not mandated for everyone. :

Could have fooled me.

I thought the it was mandated.

satanica
07-24-2009, 02:49 PM
It's a simple answer, the cost of everything will go up because more taxes will be levied. You really don't understand how the real world works do ya? When you grow up and get a job, you have to pay taxes on everything.

Where ? ...

Who will see a income tax increase to pay for HC ?

satanica
07-24-2009, 02:50 PM
Because THEY CANNOT PAY FOR IT the way they are saying they are going to pay for it.
.

Thats your opinion.

enslaved1
07-24-2009, 02:50 PM
Could have fooled me.

I thought the it was mandated.

Show me where it is mandated if you don't have a car. Specifically by the feds. I said states have various levels of required coverage if you own a car.

I know you won't, but I'll ask anyway.

Zafod
07-24-2009, 02:50 PM
go find a job ya bum....

BadCat
07-24-2009, 02:51 PM
Where ? ...

Who will see a income tax increase to pay for HC ?

Everybody who pays taxes.

lacarnut
07-24-2009, 02:51 PM
Who would ever care ? ...Oh ya, the giant insurance empires ..I guess somebody has to stand up for them.

If the government can offer better coverage for cheaper, then we should all be for it. If you admit the insurance companies can't compete with the government, then you admit the government will be offering a better plan. And if the insurance companines don't lower their prices and compete, they will die a horrible death...I am fine with that. This is not about a business, it's about our healthcare system

After all, people are not going to flock to something that is WORSE that what they have now.

.

Cheap does not mean better does it? Would you rather have a Lexus or most of the junk coming out of Detroit? The Obama plan does not mean better care for those that already have care; 75% of the people are satisfied with their coverage and do not want socialized meds. I have 5 star coverage so why would I want to trade in my Lexus for a Dodge?

It is un-American to force young people into insurance that they do not want
It is un-American to force a business to cover their employees
It is un-American for the government to force you into their health plan when you change jobs
It is un-American for the government to tell you to go home and die because you are too old to get treatment.
It is un-American for the government to reduce the quality of my coverage in order to cover those that are unable to obtain coverage.
It is un-American to pick and choose which companies will survive and which ones will go under.

Obama and his goons will prop up big insurance companies like United Health and Blue Cross and allow smaller independent to die just like they did with AIG and Goldman Sachs. It is un-American for the government to pick winners and losers.

BadCat
07-24-2009, 02:51 PM
Thats your opinion.

No, that's simple mathematics.

satanica
07-24-2009, 02:56 PM
It is un-American to force young people into insurance that they do not want

First off, the US Government mandated auto coverage and you remained SILENT.

Second off ...nobody is ever going to force someone to buy into a health plan they don't want. Obama has said many many many many many times ..."If you want to keep your coverage, you can"

You are spreading lies.

BadCat
07-24-2009, 02:58 PM
First off, the US Government mandated auto coverage and you remained SILENT.

Second off ...nobody is ever going to force someone to buy into a health plan they don't want. Obama has said many many many many many times ..."If you want to keep your coverage, you can"

You are spreading lies.

And Obama thinks the White Sox play at "KomiNsky Park".

Why should we believe an idiot?

Molon Labe
07-24-2009, 03:00 PM
What's been going on in your hometown? Didn't this take place in Chicaga' this month?


Protests in Downtown Chicago (http://waronyou.com/topics/protests-in-downtown-chicago-not-on-the-controlled-newsmedia/)

http://www.fourwinds10.com/resources/uploads/image/38798-6.jpg

satanica
07-24-2009, 03:01 PM
And Obama thinks the White Sox play at "KomiNsky Park".

Why should we believe an idiot?

Hey, tell your red state that my blue state has put the check in the mail that you depend on every year to survive.

You should thank me, MY taxes go to YOUR state ...not the other way around.

Just be clear on who depends on socialism to survive. Without the financial help from the blue states, your pathetic state would collapse.

Your welcome.

Gingersnap
07-24-2009, 03:01 PM
First off, the US Government mandated auto coverage and you remained SILENT.

Second off ...nobody is ever going to force someone to buy into a health plan they don't want. Obama has said many many many many many times ..."If you want to keep your coverage, you can"

You are spreading lies.

But he's admitted himself that he hasn't read any of the provisions in the bill that he's been questioned about. The way the bill is written now, any change to your private insurance means you get dropped and you have to enroll in the public option. There are no insurance policies that never have changes - rate changes, contribution changes, adding a child, dropping a spouse, etc.

As it now stands, I could only keep my private insurance as long there were no changes (which won't happen), so I'd be forced into government-run health care (which I don't want).

lacarnut
07-24-2009, 03:01 PM
Could have fooled me.

I thought the it was mandated.

Wrong, White-bread. You can post a bond high enough to cover liability damages to the other person and their vehicle.

You show your stupidity about every other post.

BadCat
07-24-2009, 03:04 PM
Hey, tell your red state that my blue state has put the check in the mail that you depend on every year to survive.

You should thank me, MY taxes go to YOUR state ...not the other way around.

Just be clear on who depends on socialism to survive. Without the financial help from the blue states, your pathetic state would collapse.

Your welcome.

The illegal mexicans here say "Gracias gringo estupido".

Ranger Rick
07-24-2009, 03:06 PM
First off, the US Government mandated auto coverage and you remained SILENT.

No, the U.S Government has not mandated car insurance. There are states that require some form of Declaration of Liability. In California it is $30,000. $30.000 in cash or $30,000 in insurance is all that is needed.


You are spreading lies.

satanica
07-24-2009, 03:07 PM
Lets be honest now.

Are the protests we see from the birthers really about his birth ?

Are the protests about the taxes really about the taxes ?

And is this recent protest you posted really about anything other than protesting a black man in the WH ?


Chcago has alot of black people, trust me.

And when these 'protests' take place I take notice. And there are NEVER any black people around.

These crazy racist white people need an outlet to protest a black man in the WH ...and they do it by holding these "cover" events.

http://www.fourwinds10.com/resources/uploads/image/38798-3.jpg

lacarnut
07-24-2009, 03:08 PM
First off, the US Government mandated auto coverage and you remained SILENT.

Second off ...nobody is ever going to force someone to buy into a health plan they don't want. Obama has said many many many many many times ..."If you want to keep your coverage, you can"

You are spreading lies.

No, I kicked your ass like a red headed stepchild.

Why don't you answer my questions about Obama forcing us to participate in his un-American socialistic plan.

enslaved1
07-24-2009, 03:10 PM
Lets be honest now.

Are the protests we see from the birthers really about his birth ?

Are the protests about the taxes really about the taxes ?

And is this recent protest you posted really about anything other than protesting a black man in the WH ?


Chcago has alot of black people, trust me.

And when these 'protests' take place I take notice. And there are NEVER any black people around.

These crazy racist white people need an outlet to protest a black man in the WH ...and they do it by holding these "cover" events.



And any of this is related to the present topic how?

BTW, where is my answer about Federally mandated auto insurance?

Jfor
07-24-2009, 03:11 PM
Lets be honest now.

Are the protests we see from the birthers really about his birth ?

Are the protests about the taxes really about the taxes ?

And is this recent protest you posted really about anything other than protesting a black man in the WH ?


Chcago has alot of black people, trust me.

And when these 'protests' take place I take notice. And there are NEVER any black people around.

These crazy racist white people need an outlet to protest a black man in the WH ...and they do it by holding these "cover" events.


There it is, the boy who who is ashamed and guilty to be white. It has nothing to do with color cornbread. There are plenty of folks who are not white that I would have GLADLY voted for for POTUS.



Back to the topic, if I change jobs, I lose my company insurance. Guess what? Under the current plan I HAVE to get the government mandated option. I cannot go and get the new company's insurance. I cannot go out and get my own insurance.

satanica
07-24-2009, 03:11 PM
Why don't you answer my questions about Obama forcing us to participate in his un-American socialistic plan.

How are you being forced into it ?

I don't get it ?

Jfor
07-24-2009, 03:12 PM
And any of this is related to the present topic how?

BTW, where is my answer about Federally mandated auto insurance?

It's right there on page... oh what was it? Of course, dimbleweed didn't answer. He doesn't know what his answer is supposed to be.

lacarnut
07-24-2009, 03:12 PM
No, the U.S Government has not mandated car insurance. There are states that require some form of Declaration of Liability. In California it is $30,000. $30.000 in cash or $30,000 in insurance is all that is needed.

You know, it's hell trying to educate an ignoramus like Satty. In LA, you can post a bond in lieu of purchasing insurance.

Jfor
07-24-2009, 03:12 PM
How are you being forced into it ?

I don't get it ?

Again, since you fail to read anything, when you have a change in your insurance you lose it and HAVE to get the government option.

satanica
07-24-2009, 03:13 PM
Back to the topic, if I change jobs, I lose my company insurance. Guess what? Under the current plan I HAVE to get the government mandated option. I cannot go and get the new company's insurance. I cannot go out and get my own insurance.

Not true. But you WILL have to go buy a new policy, it could be private or public....it's your choice.

You couldn't be more wrong.

satanica
07-24-2009, 03:14 PM
Again, since you fail to read anything, when you have a change in your insurance you lose it and HAVE to get the government option.

Nope...

Not true. But you WILL have to go buy a new policy, it could be private or public....it's your choice.

Jfor
07-24-2009, 03:14 PM
Nope...

Not true. But you WILL have to go buy a new policy, it could be private or public....it's your choice.

You haven't read the bill have you? Page 16. nuff said.

BadCat
07-24-2009, 03:14 PM
It's right there on page... oh what was it? Of course, dimbleweed didn't answer. He doesn't know what his answer is supposed to be.

Page 16 of the "I have no brain left Kennedy" bill.

Zafod
07-24-2009, 03:16 PM
satty, stop posting and look for a job you fucking bum.

satanica
07-24-2009, 03:17 PM
Page 16 of the "I have no brain left Kennedy" bill.

It doesn't say that.

It says you have to buy a new plan at the NIE

lacarnut
07-24-2009, 03:17 PM
How are you being forced into it ?

I don't get it ?

Why don't you read the bill where a business is required to enroll employees. If they do not, the business will be fined. If you change jobs/or have the means and do not enroll in the public option, you will be fined. Evidently, you do not know what your are talking about.

satanica
07-24-2009, 03:18 PM
You haven't read the bill have you? Page 16. nuff said.

Page 16 says you MUST buy a new plan ...private or public.

The ONLY person in congress who has made this claim is Michelle Bachman.

Zafod
07-24-2009, 03:19 PM
he needs to stop posting about shit he knows nothing about and go find a fucking job.

BadCat
07-24-2009, 03:19 PM
It doesn't say that.

It says you have to buy a new plan at the NIE

It says that private insurance companies will write NO NEW POLICIES as of the day the bill in enacted.
Kinda hard to get private insurance that way.

stsinner
07-24-2009, 03:20 PM
Page 16 says you MUST buy a new plan ...private or public.

The ONLY person in congress who has made this claim is Michelle Bachman.

How is forcing an American to purchase insurance in any way freedom or Constitutional? The Communist state I live in has implemented this, and it's not working out too well.. Why is it that American has to make all its own mistake and cannot learn from the mistakes of other nations or even one of our own states where it has failed?

The scary part is that this Government Run Healthcare plan is going to be a dismal failure, and the rally disgusting part is that once enacted, the government will never get rid of it and will continue to throw money at it instead of admitting that it doesn't work.

We have to defeat this bill! Get on the phone!! Call your representatives and express your opposition.

lacarnut
07-24-2009, 03:28 PM
Nope...

you WILL have to go buy a new policy, it could be private or public....it's your choice.

I wish that was true but that is totally, absolutely, unequivocally, positively NOT true. In fact if it was true, opposition would be somewhat diminished. Obama wants to take over the health care system and force ALL private insurers out of the market place.

The 47 million uninsured could be fixed at a fraction of the 1 trillion dollar estimate. Leave our insurance alone and fix the other part. The ultimate goal of this administration is a complete takeover. Years down the road, you will be shitting bricks when you get the kind of care that Canada and the EU has.

satanica
07-24-2009, 03:33 PM
The actual text...


(a) Grandfathered Health Insurance Coverage Defined- Subject to the succeeding provisions of this section, for purposes of establishing acceptable coverage under this division, the term `grandfathered health insurance coverage' means individual health insurance coverage that is offered and in force and effect before the first day of Y1 if the following conditions are met:

This means that if you like your insurance you can keep it.

(2) LIMITATION ON CHANGES IN TERMS OR CONDITIONS- Subject to paragraph (3) and except as required by law, the issuer does not change any of its terms or conditions, including benefits and cost-sharing, from those in effect as of the day before the first day of Y1.

This means if you DO CHOSE to keep your insurance, you can't modify it.

(1) IN GENERAL- Individual health insurance coverage that is not grandfathered health insurance coverage under subsection (a) may only be offered on or after the first day of Y1 as an Exchange-participating health benefits plan.

And this means if you leave your job and lose your coverage, or if you just want to change coverage, you have to go to the NIE to buy new coverage. This coverage can be private or public.

REAPEAT ...THIS NEW COVERAGE CAN BE PUBLIC OR PRIVATE, THE NIE (NATIONAL INSURANCE EXCHANGE) WILL BE A CLEARING HOUSE FOR HEALTH INSURANCE, YOU CAN CHOSE A PRIVATE OR PUBLIC PLAN .....BUT YOU DO HAVE TO GO TO THE (NIE) TO GET IT.

YOU WILL BE FORCED TO GO TO THE NIE, BUT YOU WILL NOT BE FORCED TO BUY A PUBLIC PLAN


Are we clear yet ? This post is the best I can do , if you don't debate this in a rational way, we are done.

Zafod
07-24-2009, 03:35 PM
go look for work....

Zafod
07-24-2009, 03:36 PM
The actual text...


(a) Grandfathered Health Insurance Coverage Defined- Subject to the succeeding provisions of this section, for purposes of establishing acceptable coverage under this division, the term `grandfathered health insurance coverage' means individual health insurance coverage that is offered and in force and effect before the first day of Y1 if the following conditions are met:

This means that if you like your insurance you can keep it.

(2) LIMITATION ON CHANGES IN TERMS OR CONDITIONS- Subject to paragraph (3) and except as required by law, the issuer does not change any of its terms or conditions, including benefits and cost-sharing, from those in effect as of the day before the first day of Y1.

This means if you DO CHOSE to keep your insurance, you can't modify it.

(1) IN GENERAL- Individual health insurance coverage that is not grandfathered health insurance coverage under subsection (a) may only be offered on or after the first day of Y1 as an Exchange-participating health benefits plan.

And this means if you leave your job and lose your coverage, or if you just want to change coverage, you have to go to the NIE to buy new coverage. This coverage can be private or public.

REAPEAT ...THIS NEW COVERAGE CAN BE PUBLIC OR PRIVATE, THE NIE (NATIONAL INSURANCE EXCHANGE) WILL BE A CLEARING HOUSE FOR HEALTH INSURANCE, YOU CAN CHOSE A PRIVATE OR PUBLIC PLAN .....BUT YOU DO HAVE TO GO TO THE (NIE) TO GET IT.

YOU WILL BE FORCED TO GO TO THE NIE, BUT YOU WILL NOT BE FORCED TO BUY A PUBLIC PLAN


Are we clear yet ? This post is the best I can do , if you don't debate this in a rational way, we are done.
you should be done anyway....you need to stop wasting time posting and look for a fucking job!

Gingersnap
07-24-2009, 03:38 PM
So if any part of my policy changes (and every policy changes every year), I have to buy a new policy that probably includes new provisions tied to the public option that I don't need or want?

BadCat
07-24-2009, 03:38 PM
Gee blarch, I thought you libs were all for CHOICE.
That's taking a lot of choices away.

satanica
07-24-2009, 03:44 PM
So if any part of my policy changes (and every policy changes every year), I have to buy a new policy that probably includes new provisions tied to the public option that I don't need or want?

The "new provisions" will be good.

- No denying coverage when you have insurance
- no cherry picking healthy people
- no denying cause of a pre-existing condition

Right now insurance companies don't have to follow these rules, if you want the status quo then hold onto your policy.

satanica
07-24-2009, 03:44 PM
Gee blarch, I thought you libs were all for CHOICE.
That's taking a lot of choices away.

Name one choice that will be taken away.

BadCat
07-24-2009, 03:45 PM
The "new provisions" will be good.

- No denying coverage when you have insurance
- no cherry picking healthy people
- no denying cause of a pre-existing condition

Right now insurance companies don't have to follow these rules, if you want the status quo then hold onto your policy.

I will.
But I don't want to pay for YOURS.

Zafod
07-24-2009, 03:45 PM
The "new provisions" will be good.

- No denying coverage when you have insurance
- no cherry picking healthy people
- no denying cause of a pre-existing condition

Right now insurance companies don't have to follow these rules, if you want the status quo then hold onto your policy.

people, satty doesnt care what you think because this healthcare is just another feeding tube for his leaching ass.

satty, you are pathetic.

Zafod
07-24-2009, 03:46 PM
804 posts in less than a month.....and not one job application.
You are a fucking bum.

satanica
07-24-2009, 03:46 PM
The actual text...OF PAGE 16


(a) Grandfathered Health Insurance Coverage Defined- Subject to the succeeding provisions of this section, for purposes of establishing acceptable coverage under this division, the term `grandfathered health insurance coverage' means individual health insurance coverage that is offered and in force and effect before the first day of Y1 if the following conditions are met:

This means that if you like your insurance you can keep it.

(2) LIMITATION ON CHANGES IN TERMS OR CONDITIONS- Subject to paragraph (3) and except as required by law, the issuer does not change any of its terms or conditions, including benefits and cost-sharing, from those in effect as of the day before the first day of Y1.

This means if you DO CHOSE to keep your insurance, you can't modify it.

(1) IN GENERAL- Individual health insurance coverage that is not grandfathered health insurance coverage under subsection (a) may only be offered on or after the first day of Y1 as an Exchange-participating health benefits plan.

And this means if you leave your job and lose your coverage, or if you just want to change coverage, you have to go to the NIE to buy new coverage. This coverage can be private or public.

REAPEAT ...THIS NEW COVERAGE CAN BE PUBLIC OR PRIVATE, THE NIE (NATIONAL INSURANCE EXCHANGE) WILL BE A CLEARING HOUSE FOR HEALTH INSURANCE, YOU CAN CHOSE A PRIVATE OR PUBLIC PLAN .....BUT YOU DO HAVE TO GO TO THE (NIE) TO GET IT.

YOU WILL BE FORCED TO GO TO THE NIE, BUT YOU WILL NOT BE FORCED TO BUY A PUBLIC PLAN

patriot45
07-24-2009, 03:48 PM
The "new provisions" will be good.

- No denying coverage when you have insurance
- no cherry picking healthy people
- no denying cause of a pre-existing condition

Right now insurance companies don't have to follow these rules, if you want the status quo then hold onto your policy.

Can I hold out and wait for a pre-existing illness to hit before I have to buy insurance? That would save me alot of money!

satanica
07-24-2009, 03:49 PM
Can I hold out and wait for a pre-existing illness to hit before I have to buy insurance? That would save me alot of money!

It would seem the system could be gamed by people like you.

When you get hit by a bus, good luck buying insurance before you are rushed to the hospital. Your care will take place before your coverage is in place.

Good luck with that.

Gingersnap
07-24-2009, 03:55 PM
The "new provisions" will be good.

- No denying coverage when you have insurance
- no cherry picking healthy people
- no denying cause of a pre-existing condition

Right now insurance companies don't have to follow these rules, if you want the status quo then hold onto your policy.

I already have all that plus same day appointments and cancer treatment that actually works.

linda22003
07-24-2009, 03:57 PM
(2) LIMITATION ON CHANGES IN TERMS OR CONDITIONS- Subject to paragraph (3) and except as required by law, the issuer does not change any of its terms or conditions, including benefits and cost-sharing, from those in effect as of the day before the first day of Y1.

This means if you DO CHOSE to keep your insurance, you can't modify it.



Why not? Why is it skin off anyone's nose if I modify it?

patriot45
07-24-2009, 03:58 PM
It would seem the system could be gamed by people like you.

When you get hit by a bus, good luck buying insurance before you are rushed to the hospital. Your care will take place before your coverage is in place.

Good luck with that.

I would sue the bus. I said a pre-existing illness, you see I could save all those premiums untill I was diagnosed with a costly illness and I would not be allowed to get turned away. In effect every one else who has paid thier premiums would have paid mine.

That is a stupid provision.

satanica
07-24-2009, 04:08 PM
I already have all that plus same day appointments and cancer treatment that actually works.

Then you are not one of the millions who don't have insurance or who want a choice ...right now we have to buy coverage from a insurance company. Thats not a choice.

Hang onto your coverage if you want, it's your choice.

Zafod
07-24-2009, 04:10 PM
stop wasting time posting here and go find work....

aerojarod
07-24-2009, 04:11 PM
REAPEAT ...THIS NEW COVERAGE CAN BE PUBLIC OR PRIVATE, THE NIE (NATIONAL INSURANCE EXCHANGE) WILL BE A CLEARING HOUSE FOR HEALTH INSURANCE, YOU CAN CHOSE A PRIVATE OR PUBLIC PLAN .....BUT YOU DO HAVE TO GO TO THE (NIE) TO GET IT.

YOU WILL BE FORCED TO GO TO THE NIE, BUT YOU WILL NOT BE FORCED TO BUY A PUBLIC PLAN

And the clearing house will be a Federal Bureacracy that will order mandate that for Private Insurers to make their policies available to public they must meet a level of coverage that has been legislated by the consent of Congress. That means that Healthcare coverage now becomes a tool for politicians to use to get elected and remain in power! You know that slippery slope exists!

"If you vote for me, I promise to appease your special interest group by passing legislation to make ALL healthcare plans cover X, Y, and Z"

Sorry, I'd like to keep the decicion of what type of coverage I want between me and my provider... not the political tool of some Congresscritter.

lacarnut
07-24-2009, 04:21 PM
Why not? Why is it skin off anyone's nose if I modify it?

That's the whole point. If you change jobs or modify it in anyway, shape or form, you lose your private coverage and will be sucked into a governmental system that provides managed/less care from doctors and hospitals. Rationed care will be the order of the day plus take a pill and go home and die mandate because you are too old and not worth saving. Cutting costs and control is more important than saving lives to these DC critters that are supporting this bill.

I wonder where that sorry ass liberal outfit like AARP stands on this issue. Probably in the back pocket of the politicians so that they will not get hit with another IRS investigation and huge fines for Income Tax Evasion.

satanica
07-24-2009, 04:24 PM
And the clearing house will be a Federal Bureacracy that will order mandate that for Private Insurers to make their policies available to public they must meet a level of coverage that has been legislated by the consent of Congress

Thats 100% correct.



Sorry, I'd like to keep the decicion of what type of coverage I want between me and my provider... not the political tool of some Congresscritter.

Sorry, that won't be able to happen under the new plan.

If you DO decide that you want your provider to deny you the medical coverage you need they will not be able to do so under the law.

You would have to take it upon yourself to stay away from the doctor and deny yourself the treatment ...your doctor or insurance provider couldn't do this legally.

And if you WANT to be denied coverage because of a pre existing condition when you try to change or buy a new plan, then don't ask your provider to do so ..it would be illegal.

Constitutionally Speaking
07-24-2009, 04:28 PM
Although I am one eagerly admits the workings of the medical system and the real world implications of bills like this and others are largely over my head, I will say this:

It seems to me the insurance feedback loop needs to be broken and the companies really, just literally need to be wiped off the face of the planet, like the unholy scourges they are. We pay huge insurance premiums, to pay the huge doctor bills... that are made unaffordable because doctors have to pay such huge malpractice premiums. The whole medical industry is little more than a prop to support insurance companies.

Any change that leaves the insurance companies (aka "whores") still standing... well, I don't see much improving. I don't know if this bill will be a good step in that direction or not.


United Healthcare's profit on each person they serve is under $45.00. I would bet that is pretty typical.


That hardly seems a scourge. Are there some that have abused customers?? Yes, but the answer to that is to give the INDIVIDUAL customer choice as to what provider he will choose.

When the INDIVIDUAL controls his own healthcare and healthcare dollar, suddenly the insurance provider MUST be responsive - as the customer can simply take his money elsewhere.

satanica
07-24-2009, 04:35 PM
United Healthcare's profit on each person they serve is under $45.00. I would bet that is pretty typical.


That hardly seems a scourge. Are there some that have abused customers?? Yes, but the answer to that is to give the INDIVIDUAL customer choice as to what provider he will choose.

When the INDIVIDUAL controls his own healthcare and healthcare dollar, suddenly the insurance provider MUST be responsive - as the customer can simply take his money elsewhere.

Explain this then ... Profits double, as membership goes down.

UnitedHealthcare of New England’s profits climbed by double digits between 2004 and 2007 even as its membership declined, according to a new report by a national nonprofit group.....The report shows how the insurance industry’s “skyrocketing profits” are being “skimmed” from health insurance premiums paid by consumers, ....By contrast, UnitedHealthcare of New England’s profits during the same three years rose by 86.7 percent, the report said, but its membership declined by 30.5 percent.

“It raises the question as to why [UnitedHealthcare’s] financial health is improving when they’re providing insurance to fewer people,”
http://www.projo.com/business/content/BZ_INSURANCE_PROFITS_14_08-14-08_1SB79N6_v72.31a67de.html

aerojarod
07-24-2009, 04:37 PM
Thats 100% correct.




Sorry, that won't be able to happen under the new plan.

If you DO decide that you want your provider to deny you the medical coverage you need they will not be able to do so under the law.

You would have to take it upon yourself to stay away from the doctor and deny yourself the treatment ...your doctor or insurance provider couldn't do this legally.

And if you WANT to be denied coverage because of a pre existing condition when you try to change or buy a new plan, then don't ask your provider to do so ..it would be illegal.

This just opens the door for policians to abuse the system by requiring that the MINIMUM level of coverage met must include things that not everyone needs, but everyone has to pay for.

It's not much of a choice if as a single 27-yr old male the Private Plan I pay for is required to cover OB/GYN, Prostate Exams, re-constructive breast surgery, lap-band procedures, etc. just because those are on the Government mandated Public Plan Coverage.

Or is there going to be a separate Government Plan for women, men, blacks, whites, muslims, Scientologists?

Do you see where I'm going with this? Once the government decides the public plan must cover something, the Private plans will HAVE to include it as well... whether it is something the individual buying it wants or needs coverage for.

Rebel Yell
07-24-2009, 04:39 PM
Satanica,

Clean out your inbox. I'm trying to PM you.

Molon Labe
07-24-2009, 04:48 PM
Although I am one eagerly admits the workings of the medical system and the real world implications of bills like this and others are largely over my head,

Don't worry. It's over most peoples head, including the politicians that get neck deep into it. I've looked through it as much as is possible for me, but imagine how difficult it must be to read through an 800 page document and deliberate about it? Then vote on it knowing what it will do.
The fact is nobody is really going to read and deliberate this bill and no one completely understands what unforseen consequences will arise. To me, it doesn't address the root problem of medical care costs. Sure the insurance guys are part of the problem, but how many are willing look at why they have so much control in the market. Could it be possible that government restrictions on medical professionals conduct of business may have an impact? We've already limited 'choice' through HMO's. The HMO act of 1973 for example. (http://www.cchconline.org/issues/hmorise.php3)
and things like ERISA.

Think about who really benefits and what gets better by looking at the history of the government getting involved. If we really believe it's about patients and quality then I don't think those people have paid attention.

wilbur
07-24-2009, 04:54 PM
Explain this then ... Profits double, as membership goes down.

UnitedHealthcare of New England’s profits climbed by double digits between 2004 and 2007 even as its membership declined, according to a new report by a national nonprofit group.....The report shows how the insurance industry’s “skyrocketing profits” are being “skimmed” from health insurance premiums paid by consumers, ....By contrast, UnitedHealthcare of New England’s profits during the same three years rose by 86.7 percent, the report said, but its membership declined by 30.5 percent.

“It raises the question as to why [UnitedHealthcare’s] financial health is improving when they’re providing insurance to fewer people,”
http://www.projo.com/business/content/BZ_INSURANCE_PROFITS_14_08-14-08_1SB79N6_v72.31a67de.html

Its called "rescission".

They don't look *too* hard over a patients medical history when they sign up for a policy and start paying their premiums....

But as soon as a claim is filed and they might have to pay, they scour the patients history for any kind of condition (doesnt even have to be related to the claim) that will allow them to rescind the policy, so that they don't have to pay out.

Some companies have even offered bonuses and other incentives to employees based on the amount of policies with active claims that they are able to rescind. This practice has been a *huge* factor in the sky rocketing profits of insurance companies in recent history... many have become much more aggressive in the practice.... like I said.. whores.

Constitutionally Speaking
07-24-2009, 05:15 PM
Explain this then ... Profits double, as membership goes down.

UnitedHealthcare of New England’s profits climbed by double digits between 2004 and 2007 even as its membership declined, according to a new report by a national nonprofit group.....The report shows how the insurance industry’s “skyrocketing profits” are being “skimmed” from health insurance premiums paid by consumers, ....By contrast, UnitedHealthcare of New England’s profits during the same three years rose by 86.7 percent, the report said, but its membership declined by 30.5 percent.

“It raises the question as to why [UnitedHealthcare’s] financial health is improving when they’re providing insurance to fewer people,”
http://www.projo.com/business/content/BZ_INSURANCE_PROFITS_14_08-14-08_1SB79N6_v72.31a67de.html

In 2008 - AFTER profits doubled they were only making roughly $45 per person they serve. That would imply that before 2008, according to your contention, they were making less.

To more directly answer your question, enrollment is not the only source of income for a health insurance company. You are also looking at one portion of the company instead of the company as a whole.

As for why they made more profit, here are the links to their annual reports.

http://www.unitedhealthgroup.com/Investors/AnnualReports.aspx

You will see that revenues were up in all of the years cited in your article. Revenues came from multiple sources - not just enrollment. Increased revenues tend to help increase profits.

lacarnut
07-24-2009, 05:16 PM
Explain this then ... Profits double, as membership goes down.

UnitedHealthcare of New England’s profits climbed by double digits between 2004 and 2007 even as its membership declined, according to a new report by a national nonprofit group.....The report shows how the insurance industry’s “skyrocketing profits” are being “skimmed” from health insurance premiums paid by consumers, ....By contrast, UnitedHealthcare of New England’s profits during the same three years rose by 86.7 percent, the report said, but its membership declined by 30.5 percent.

“It raises the question as to why [UnitedHealthcare’s] financial health is improving when they’re providing insurance to fewer people,”
http://www.projo.com/business/content/BZ_INSURANCE_PROFITS_14_08-14-08_1SB79N6_v72.31a67de.html

$19.85 per month profit per patient does not sound like an outrageous amount of profit to me. You think it might be because of all the fruitcakes up in that area? You know, mental disease is costly. Those New England blue states have a large number of patients with deranged dysfunctional syndrome.

Zafod
07-24-2009, 05:17 PM
satty, stop wasting time posting here and go find work....

Gingersnap
07-24-2009, 05:21 PM
This just opens the door for policians to abuse the system by requiring that the MINIMUM level of coverage met must include things that not everyone needs, but everyone has to pay for.

It's not much of a choice if as a single 27-yr old male the Private Plan I pay for is required to cover OB/GYN, Prostate Exams, re-constructive breast surgery, lap-band procedures, etc. just because those are on the Government mandated Public Plan Coverage.

Or is there going to be a separate Government Plan for women, men, blacks, whites, muslims, Scientologists?

Do you see where I'm going with this? Once the government decides the public plan must cover something, the Private plans will HAVE to include it as well... whether it is something the individual buying it wants or needs coverage for.

If they really wanted to "reform" health care, they'd offer real boutique plans based on individual needs. Just getting rid of the birth control/pregnancy/childbirth/newborn care components of my policy would probably drop the premiums like a rock.

satanica
07-24-2009, 05:22 PM
In 2008 - AFTER profits doubled they were only making roughly $45 per person they serve. That would imply that before 2008, according to your contention, they were making less.

To more directly answer your question, enrollment is not the only source of income for a health insurance company.


I would never expect you to take my word for it, thats why I posted a link.

And I would also assume that you know I don't take YOUR word for anything.

So where is your link with this $45.00 number in it ?

satanica
07-24-2009, 05:22 PM
$19.85 per month profit per patient does not sound like an outrageous amount of profit to me. You think it might be because of all the fruitcakes up in that area? You know, mental disease is costly. Those New England blue states have a large number of patients with deranged dysfunctional syndrome.

Link ?

Rockntractor
07-24-2009, 05:26 PM
Link ?
Were you raised conservative?

stsinner
07-24-2009, 05:30 PM
If they really wanted to "reform" health care, they'd offer real boutique plans based on individual needs. Just getting rid of the birth control/pregnancy/childbirth/newborn care components of my policy would probably drop the premiums like a rock.

I think that the best thing the government could do to ensure that we have the best health care is STAY THE HELL OUT OF IT!!!! What they should concentrate on is brining JOBS back from overseas and Mexico and make it illegal to outsource jobs to other countries.. If they're so hell-bent on doing something unconstitutional, they should make a law requiring American business to employ American people and make it illegal to close entire plants with the sole intent of moving the entire operation outside our borders to take advantage of the cheap labor.. American employers should provide opportunities for American people!!

When people have jobs they have health care!

They could also take all those bums and bastard factories sitting home collecting a government check and put them to work earning that money-they are, after all, on the government payroll, so why not make them clean city parks, scrub graffiti off of walls, clean government offices... Not THAT'S productivity-getting some bank for our bucks!

lacarnut
07-24-2009, 05:30 PM
Link ?

READ your own link (paragraph #10) that you posted.

Satanic is a moron. Do you take stupid pills?

stsinner
07-24-2009, 05:34 PM
READ your own link (paragraph #10) that you posted.

Satanic is a moron. Do you take stupid pills?


His mother should have used the thudguard! (http://www.thudguard.com/)

satanica
07-24-2009, 05:36 PM
READ your own link (paragraph #10) that you posted.

Satanic is a moron. Do you take stupid pills?

UnitedHealthcare of New England’s “per member, per month” profit last year was $19.85 — more than twice the $9.99 for Blue Cross, the report said.

Doesn't this prove they are skimming ? ...the conclusion of the article.

The report shows how the insurance industry’s “skyrocketing profits” are being “skimmed” from health insurance premiums paid by consumers


Why would someone defend this ?

This is our healthcare, not a business.

satanica
07-24-2009, 05:37 PM
The actual text...OF PAGE 16


(a) Grandfathered Health Insurance Coverage Defined- Subject to the succeeding provisions of this section, for purposes of establishing acceptable coverage under this division, the term `grandfathered health insurance coverage' means individual health insurance coverage that is offered and in force and effect before the first day of Y1 if the following conditions are met:

This means that if you like your insurance you can keep it.

(2) LIMITATION ON CHANGES IN TERMS OR CONDITIONS- Subject to paragraph (3) and except as required by law, the issuer does not change any of its terms or conditions, including benefits and cost-sharing, from those in effect as of the day before the first day of Y1.

This means if you DO CHOSE to keep your insurance, you can't modify it.

(1) IN GENERAL- Individual health insurance coverage that is not grandfathered health insurance coverage under subsection (a) may only be offered on or after the first day of Y1 as an Exchange-participating health benefits plan.

And this means if you leave your job and lose your coverage, or if you just want to change coverage, you have to go to the NIE to buy new coverage. This coverage can be private or public.

REAPEAT ...THIS NEW COVERAGE CAN BE PUBLIC OR PRIVATE, THE NIE (NATIONAL INSURANCE EXCHANGE) WILL BE A CLEARING HOUSE FOR HEALTH INSURANCE, YOU CAN CHOSE A PRIVATE OR PUBLIC PLAN .....BUT YOU DO HAVE TO GO TO THE (NIE) TO GET IT.

YOU WILL BE FORCED TO GO TO THE NIE, BUT YOU WILL NOT BE FORCED TO BUY A PUBLIC PLAN

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Constitutionally Speaking
07-24-2009, 05:39 PM
Why FORCE anyone??

Is this not America - you know, freedom and all of that nonsense??

satanica
07-24-2009, 05:40 PM
Why FORCE anyone??

Is this not America - you know, freedom and all of that nonsense??

Force what ?

What would you be forced to do ?

BadCat
07-24-2009, 05:43 PM
Force what ?

What would you be forced to do ?

Be on rationed government "health care".
If I change jobs.
If I want to change my policy.
If my company quits providing insurance (and most will quit when they can dump their employees on the Federal tit).

satanica
07-24-2009, 05:46 PM
Be on rationed government "health care".
If I change jobs.
If I want to change my policy.
If my company quits providing insurance (and most will quit when they can dump their employees on the Federal tit).

If you lose or want to change coverage, you can go buy all the PRIVATE INSURANCE that you can afford.

Can you post the text that shows where you will be forced to buy a public insurance ?

If not we are done, because I have given you 10 pages to post this text...

JUST DO IT. You claim it's on page 16 ...well here it is ...please explain to us all what the fuck you are talking about ...cut and paste it in a post.
The actual text...OF PAGE 16


(a) Grandfathered Health Insurance Coverage Defined- Subject to the succeeding provisions of this section, for purposes of establishing acceptable coverage under this division, the term `grandfathered health insurance coverage' means individual health insurance coverage that is offered and in force and effect before the first day of Y1 if the following conditions are met:

This means that if you like your insurance you can keep it.

(2) LIMITATION ON CHANGES IN TERMS OR CONDITIONS- Subject to paragraph (3) and except as required by law, the issuer does not change any of its terms or conditions, including benefits and cost-sharing, from those in effect as of the day before the first day of Y1.

This means if you DO CHOSE to keep your insurance, you can't modify it.

(1) IN GENERAL- Individual health insurance coverage that is not grandfathered health insurance coverage under subsection (a) may only be offered on or after the first day of Y1 as an Exchange-participating health benefits plan.

And this means if you leave your job and lose your coverage, or if you just want to change coverage, you have to go to the NIE to buy new coverage. This coverage can be private or public.

REAPEAT ...THIS NEW COVERAGE CAN BE PUBLIC OR PRIVATE, THE NIE (NATIONAL INSURANCE EXCHANGE) WILL BE A CLEARING HOUSE FOR HEALTH INSURANCE, YOU CAN CHOSE A PRIVATE OR PUBLIC PLAN .....BUT YOU DO HAVE TO GO TO THE (NIE) TO GET IT.

YOU WILL BE FORCED TO GO TO THE NIE, BUT YOU WILL NOT BE FORCED TO BUY A PUBLIC PLAN

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BadCat
07-24-2009, 05:49 PM
Go back and re-read section A there.

Lars1701a
07-24-2009, 05:50 PM
If you lose or want to change coverage, you can go buy all the PRIVATE INSURANCE that you can afford.

Can you post the text that shows where you will be forced to buy a public insurance ?

If not we are done, because I have given you 10 pages to post this text...

JUST DO IT. You claim it's on page 16 ...well here it is ...please explain to us all what the fuck you are talking about ...cut and paste it in a post.
The actual text...OF PAGE 16


(a) Grandfathered Health Insurance Coverage Defined- Subject to the succeeding provisions of this section, for purposes of establishing acceptable coverage under this division, the term `grandfathered health insurance coverage' means individual health insurance coverage that is offered and in force and effect before the first day of Y1 if the following conditions are met:

This means that if you like your insurance you can keep it.

(2) LIMITATION ON CHANGES IN TERMS OR CONDITIONS- Subject to paragraph (3) and except as required by law, the issuer does not change any of its terms or conditions, including benefits and cost-sharing, from those in effect as of the day before the first day of Y1.

This means if you DO CHOSE to keep your insurance, you can't modify it.

(1) IN GENERAL- Individual health insurance coverage that is not grandfathered health insurance coverage under subsection (a) may only be offered on or after the first day of Y1 as an Exchange-participating health benefits plan.

And this means if you leave your job and lose your coverage, or if you just want to change coverage, you have to go to the NIE to buy new coverage. This coverage can be private or public.

REAPEAT ...THIS NEW COVERAGE CAN BE PUBLIC OR PRIVATE, THE NIE (NATIONAL INSURANCE EXCHANGE) WILL BE A CLEARING HOUSE FOR HEALTH INSURANCE, YOU CAN CHOSE A PRIVATE OR PUBLIC PLAN .....BUT YOU DO HAVE TO GO TO THE (NIE) TO GET IT.

YOU WILL BE FORCED TO GO TO THE NIE, BUT YOU WILL NOT BE FORCED TO BUY A PUBLIC PLAN

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


WHY SHOULD WE HAVE TO GO TO THE NIE? that sure seems like being forced to go through a quasi govt program to get HC.

stsinner
07-24-2009, 05:50 PM
Damn!!! I'm tiring of this crap quickly.. Satanica acts like his father wrote the bill and he's the salesman!! Why do you care so much what we think of it? Who cares!! It sucks, and it must be defeated!! It's not freedom, and it's un-American.

satanica
07-24-2009, 05:50 PM
Go back and re-read section A there.

That means you can keep what you have, ...if you want to.

satanica
07-24-2009, 05:51 PM
The actual text...OF PAGE 16


(a) Grandfathered Health Insurance Coverage Defined- Subject to the succeeding provisions of this section, for purposes of establishing acceptable coverage under this division, the term `grandfathered health insurance coverage' means individual health insurance coverage that is offered and in force and effect before the first day of Y1 if the following conditions are met:

This means that if you like your insurance you can keep it.

(2) LIMITATION ON CHANGES IN TERMS OR CONDITIONS- Subject to paragraph (3) and except as required by law, the issuer does not change any of its terms or conditions, including benefits and cost-sharing, from those in effect as of the day before the first day of Y1.

This means if you DO CHOSE to keep your insurance, you can't modify it.

(1) IN GENERAL- Individual health insurance coverage that is not grandfathered health insurance coverage under subsection (a) may only be offered on or after the first day of Y1 as an Exchange-participating health benefits plan.And this means if you leave your job and lose your coverage, or if you just want to change coverage, you have to go to the NIE to buy new coverage. This coverage can be private or public.

REAPEAT ...THIS NEW COVERAGE CAN BE PUBLIC OR PRIVATE, THE NIE (NATIONAL INSURANCE EXCHANGE) WILL BE A CLEARING HOUSE FOR HEALTH INSURANCE, YOU CAN CHOSE A PRIVATE OR PUBLIC PLAN .....BUT YOU DO HAVE TO GO TO THE (NIE) TO GET IT.

YOU WILL BE FORCED TO GO TO THE NIE, BUT YOU WILL NOT BE FORCED TO BUY A PUBLIC PLAN

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lars1701a
07-24-2009, 05:52 PM
That means you can keep what you have, ...if you want to.

untill it changes in anyway shape or form, then you have to go to the NIE (govt type board) and look for HC. My question why should i have to go through the govt to pick a healthcare plan?

Zafod
07-24-2009, 05:58 PM
satty, I will never want to pay for healthcare for unemployed bums like you. Now stop posting and go find a job. Stop being a waste of space.

lacarnut
07-24-2009, 06:00 PM
UnitedHealthcare of New England’s “per member, per month” profit last year was $19.85 — more than twice the $9.99 for Blue Cross, the report said.

Doesn't this prove they are skimming ? ...the conclusion of the article.

The report shows how the insurance industry’s “skyrocketing profits” are being “skimmed” from health insurance premiums paid by consumers


Why would someone defend this ?

This is our healthcare, not a business.

I will try and explain it to you from own personal experience. I have United Health-care and can choose any Doctor and any hospital in the US. I pay approximately 50 dollars a month more than what another provider (HMOs) charges because I want full coverage. My policy covers 100% hospital and surgeon fees. The other policy covers only 80%. Blue Cross has these HMO policies which I do NOT want. Therefore, when you offer gold star care, you have to pay more for it because the Insurance company is taking GREATER RISKS under the policy I have. You get what you pay for, and I don't want limited/rationed health care.

My plan is almost as good as what the DC critters have with the exception I have to pay for mine. When the politicians agree to give up their coverage to go into this government option plan, I will give up mine. Is that fair enough?

satanica
07-24-2009, 06:03 PM
untill it changes in anyway shape or form, then you have to go to the NIE (govt type board) and look for HC. My question why should i have to go through the govt to pick a healthcare plan?

You don't. You tell the PRIVATE INSURANCE COMPANY that you want to purchase medical coverage, they then provide you with the PRIVATE COVERAGE you requested.

At no point do you have to go through the US Government for your PRIVATE INSURANCE.

satanica
07-24-2009, 06:05 PM
I will try and explain it to you from own personal experience. I have United Health-care and can choose any Doctor and any hospital in the US

So ? You could still do that under the new plan.

BadCat
07-24-2009, 06:05 PM
You don't. You tell the PRIVATE INSURANCE COMPANY that you want to purchase medical coverage, they then provide you with the PRIVATE COVERAGE you requested.

At no point do you have to go through the US Government for your PRIVATE INSURANCE.

You just said we will have to go through the "NIE" to buy insurance.

satanica
07-24-2009, 06:10 PM
You just said we will have to go through the "NIE" to buy insurance.

It's a "virtual" thing.

You don't go to or through anything.

It's like a regulation on car safety. You can go to whatever car company you want to, but all the cars will fall under the same regulations ....you don't go through anything.

lacarnut
07-24-2009, 06:11 PM
So ? You could still do that under the new plan.

Not quite true. A bureaucrat will decide if I am worthy enough to have heart surgery if I am elderly. In other words, this unelected official may decide that is not cost effective because I might only have 5 or 10 more years to live. Do you honestly want someone (hint, like your postman) making that life or death decision for you?

satanica
07-24-2009, 06:12 PM
Not quite true. A bureaucrat will decide if I am worthy enough to have heart surgery if I am elderly. In other words, this unelected official may decide that is not cost effective because I might only have 5 or 10 more years to live. Do you honestly want someone (hint, like your postman) making that life or death decision for you?

Link ?

Notice how I post the actual text ?

And you post ....well, nothing but a mad mans opinion.

satanica
07-24-2009, 06:13 PM
The actual text...OF PAGE 16


(a) Grandfathered Health Insurance Coverage Defined- Subject to the succeeding provisions of this section, for purposes of establishing acceptable coverage under this division, the term `grandfathered health insurance coverage' means individual health insurance coverage that is offered and in force and effect before the first day of Y1 if the following conditions are met:

This means that if you like your insurance you can keep it.

(2) LIMITATION ON CHANGES IN TERMS OR CONDITIONS- Subject to paragraph (3) and except as required by law, the issuer does not change any of its terms or conditions, including benefits and cost-sharing, from those in effect as of the day before the first day of Y1.

This means if you DO CHOSE to keep your insurance, you can't modify it.

(1) IN GENERAL- Individual health insurance coverage that is not grandfathered health insurance coverage under subsection (a) may only be offered on or after the first day of Y1 as an Exchange-participating health benefits plan.

And this means if you leave your job and lose your coverage, or if you just want to change coverage, you have to go to the NIE to buy new coverage. This coverage can be private or public.

REAPEAT ...THIS NEW COVERAGE CAN BE PUBLIC OR PRIVATE, THE NIE (NATIONAL INSURANCE EXCHANGE) WILL BE A CLEARING HOUSE FOR HEALTH INSURANCE, YOU CAN CHOSE A PRIVATE OR PUBLIC PLAN .....BUT YOU DO HAVE TO GO TO THE (NIE) TO GET IT.

YOU WILL BE FORCED TO GO TO THE NIE, BUT YOU WILL NOT BE FORCED TO BUY A PUBLIC PLAN

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lars1701a
07-24-2009, 06:18 PM
You don't. You tell the PRIVATE INSURANCE COMPANY that you want to purchase medical coverage, they then provide you with the PRIVATE COVERAGE you requested.

At no point do you have to go through the US Government for your PRIVATE INSURANCE.

Dont I have to go through the NIE to get to my so called private insurance?


Its called a MIDDLE MAN and as we all know they make everything better :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Lars1701a
07-24-2009, 06:20 PM
This NIE wil be just another group of bureaucrats that draw a salary for no good reason.


HERE is a good plan GOVT get out of my life as much as possible

satanica
07-24-2009, 06:21 PM
Dont I have to go through the NIE to get to my so called private insurance?




No you don't.


The Insurance company does.

Just like the Auto industry regulations, the auto company "goes through" the system when they build a car, not you....you can buy a car any where you want, and they will all have the same regulations applied to them to keep you safe.

Lars1701a
07-24-2009, 06:23 PM
No you don't.


The Insurance company does.

Just like the Auto industry regulations, the auto company "goes through" the system when they build a car, not you....you can buy a car any where you want, and they will all have the same regulations applied to them to keep you safe.

Let me make it clear for you ok?


DO I have to do anything other then calling a insurance I want to enroll in? IF I DO THEN ITS ANOTHER STEP IN THE PROCESS>

lacarnut
07-24-2009, 06:23 PM
Link ?

Notice how I post the actual text ?

And you post ....well, nothing but a mad mans opinion.

This comes from the Obummer's mouth. You need to watch the Magic Negro/Democraps more often. Talk about some loony tunes.

BTW, there are (3) versions of the Health Care Bill. You are one dumb ass.

Lars1701a
07-24-2009, 06:25 PM
I am not getting it IF the NIE is not something i have to go through to get my insurance then whats the point of starting this NIE?

Lars1701a
07-24-2009, 06:28 PM
No you don't.


The Insurance company does.

Just like the Auto industry regulations, the auto company "goes through" the system when they build a car, not you....you can buy a car any where you want, and they will all have the same regulations applied to them to keep you safe.

So you are saying my taxes will have to pay for another group of govt workers doing something that doesnt need to be done?

BadCat
07-24-2009, 06:29 PM
You know blarch, this is the EXACT same way the Socialists up North first marketed their health care system, it's only for the poor, nobody will be "forced" into it...same lies.

Zafod
07-24-2009, 06:31 PM
The actual text...OF PAGE 16


(a) Grandfathered Health Insurance Coverage Defined- Subject to the succeeding provisions of this section, for purposes of establishing acceptable coverage under this division, the term `grandfathered health insurance coverage' means individual health insurance coverage that is offered and in force and effect before the first day of Y1 if the following conditions are met:

This means that if you like your insurance you can keep it.

(2) LIMITATION ON CHANGES IN TERMS OR CONDITIONS- Subject to paragraph (3) and except as required by law, the issuer does not change any of its terms or conditions, including benefits and cost-sharing, from those in effect as of the day before the first day of Y1.

This means if you DO CHOSE to keep your insurance, you can't modify it.

(1) IN GENERAL- Individual health insurance coverage that is not grandfathered health insurance coverage under subsection (a) may only be offered on or after the first day of Y1 as an Exchange-participating health benefits plan.

And this means if you leave your job and lose your coverage, or if you just want to change coverage, you have to go to the NIE to buy new coverage. This coverage can be private or public.

REAPEAT ...THIS NEW COVERAGE CAN BE PUBLIC OR PRIVATE, THE NIE (NATIONAL INSURANCE EXCHANGE) WILL BE A CLEARING HOUSE FOR HEALTH INSURANCE, YOU CAN CHOSE A PRIVATE OR PUBLIC PLAN .....BUT YOU DO HAVE TO GO TO THE (NIE) TO GET IT.

YOU WILL BE FORCED TO GO TO THE NIE, BUT YOU WILL NOT BE FORCED TO BUY A PUBLIC PLAN

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

cut and paste is fucking lame. Now stop wasting time postin and go look for a job you fucking bum.

Lars1701a
07-24-2009, 06:33 PM
Blarch


Please tell me why we have to have another group over govt bureaucrats? aren't there enough already?

Rockntractor
07-24-2009, 06:36 PM
cut and paste is fucking lame. Now stop wasting time postin and go look for a job you fucking bum.

I would like to know if his parents are conservative. That would explain why he is hell bent on changing our minds. Start answering some questions satty!

lacarnut
07-24-2009, 06:43 PM
cut and paste is fucking lame. Now stop wasting time postin and go look for a job you fucking bum.

That makes a lot of sense to me by being a producer instead of a leech. We have too many lazy bastards on the government dole. Instead of giving them more like housing and food stamps and other social program, kick them to the curb if they are not sick or elderly.

BadCat
07-24-2009, 06:48 PM
That makes a lot of sense to me by being a producer instead of a leech. We have too many lazy bastards on the government dole. Instead of giving them more like housing and food stamps and other social program, kick them to the curb if they are not sick or elderly.

Indeed.

How about some government provided "End of Life" counseling for any chronic welfare recipient?

Rockntractor
07-24-2009, 06:51 PM
Indeed.

How about some government provided "End of Life" counseling for any chronic welfare recipient?

There are a lot of tall buildings in Chicago It is a shame to put them to waste. Jappy could video tape the landing and post it for us!

Lars1701a
07-24-2009, 06:53 PM
Still asking why I have to pay more taxes for another group of govt workers?

Zafod
07-24-2009, 09:14 PM
Get a job satty.

SaintLouieWoman
07-24-2009, 09:36 PM
If not we are done, because I have given you 10 pages to post this text...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My the narcissism runs strong here. It's very generous of you to "give" 10 pages to post this text.

Have you struck a deal to purchase the board? Maybe you're providing the funds to pay for the server, etc.

Thank you again for your generosity. It's so big of you.

Sonnabend
07-24-2009, 09:45 PM
It's right next to where it says they have a power to form NASA, the FBI, the CIA, and the Department of Education.

Which is where in the US Constitution? (I know its late but this is one I want satty to answer)

Jfor
07-24-2009, 09:49 PM
Question for you dimbleweed. Where is this allowed by this itty bitty section of the Constitution you say you hold so dear?


10th Amendment:
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

Sonnabend
07-24-2009, 09:59 PM
There's also this:

Obama's plan calls for massive federal; intervention at every level, down to local businesses. In many ways this can and very well will be considered an abrogation of State's rights, as the levels of healthcare in each state are mandated to a great degree by legislation enacted in that state, and not by the federal gov't.

The kind of work involved in incorporating this into law and then into the social fabric will create a great deal of chaos, and it would not surprise me to see more than one state to tell him to go to hell, as they will see this as an intrusion onto their affairs.

There also seems to be no provision for ensuring that thoise in this mandated health care are citizens and not illegals, with more of them creeping over the border every day it will continue to be a drain on resources, manpower, time and eventually will force businesses to succumb to a huge degree of government paperwork.

Fining businesses will require more government oversight down to the local level, and I cannot see many businesses agreeing to some federal inspector waling into theius business and "auditing their books"

One million already invovced in TEA parties.
State revolt against federal gun laws and over regulation

Mandated health care for 300 MILLION people will, in the end, become a cause for a large scale political revolt, it is unsustainable, the costs will blow out as they always do, and there is absolutely no way that the bill as written will ever be enacted in the Senate.

The 10th amendment will become a rallying cry for many states to ignore this...especially in states where illegal immigration is a major thorn in the side of government, Arizona, Texas and others.

This is socialised health care writ large, it is a violation of the principles upon which the nation was founded, it is more than likely going to be the subject of more than one state lawsuit to the USSC stating that the entire plan is an abrogation of states rights...and therefore unconstitutional under the 10th Amendment

If they agree....thats the end.

The last time this kind of argument happened was in the 1800's...and we all know how that ended.

Sonnabend
07-24-2009, 10:08 PM
By the way, satty, if you dismiss me with your usual "The americans are talkiing" and ignore the points I have made and dont address them, then you're a liar.

The mods are debating banning your ass right now, so lets see if you want to keep your word, address the points and not revert to your usual abuse, or I was right and your ass should be thrown out the door.

Doesnt matter where I am from. The fact that I am right is what matters here...and thats the acid test where you are concerned.

For the record jackass, we have a PRIME MINISTER, not a President, if you had bothered to read any biology you'd know a dingo is a canine, and therefore a dog, you'd know that there are virtually none where I love because they are a protected species.,

I seem to be the one informed here. Meet my standards, have your facts ready and checked, address the issue or shut the fuck up. I dont suffer fools gladly.

Jfor
07-24-2009, 10:10 PM
Damn.... Even the Aussie gets it but a US citizen like dimbleweed doesn't. Conservatism is the same around the world!


Healthcare is a STATE's RIGHTS ISSUE

Sonnabend
07-24-2009, 10:23 PM
We have here what Obummer is proposing. It doesnt work. The system is bursting at the seams, the hospitals turn patients away, the costs blow out every year, hospitals close beds every day and theres a waiting list for surgery a mile long

I waited four weeks for surgery for thyroid cancer.They almost cancelled it except my surgeon stepped in and put me back on the list.

We have 21 million.

Obama is talking about a centralised , federally controlled single payer health system for THREE HUNDRED MILLION PEOPLE

That way lies penury.

Jfor
07-24-2009, 10:25 PM
We have here what Obummer is proposing. It doesnt work. The system is bursting at the seams, the hospitals turn patients away, the costs blow out every year, hospitals close beds every day and theres a waiting list for surgery a mile long

I waited four weeks for surgery for thyroid cancer.They almost cancelled it except my surgeon stepped in and put me back on the list.

We have 21 million.

Obama is talking about a centralised , federally controlled single payer health system for THREE HUNDRED MILLION PEOPLE

That way lies penury.

Just because you have first hand experience with government run health care doesn't mean you know anything about it. Dear Leader know what's best for us.



In a pig's rear. (Sorry Rockntractor)

Sonnabend
07-24-2009, 10:26 PM
Satanica: Looks like I was right


http://www.conservativeunderground.com/forum505/images/icons/icon1.gif Showdown: Texas May Reject Nationalized Healthcare...
:cool:

http://www.star-telegram.com/804/story/1504240.html
(snip)
Quote:
Perry raises possibility of states' rights showdown with White House over healthcare
By DAVE MONTGOMERY

AUSTIN — Gov. Rick Perry, raising the specter of a showdown with the Obama administration, suggested Thursday that he would consider invoking states’ rights protections under the 10th Amendment to resist the president’s healthcare plan, which he said would be "disastrous" for Texas.

Interviewed by conservative talk show host Mark Davis of Dallas’ WBAP/820 AM, Perry said his first hope is that Congress will defeat the plan, which both Perry and Davis described as "Obama Care." But should it pass, Perry predicted that Texas and a "number" of states might resist the federal health mandate.

"I think you’ll hear states and governors standing up and saying 'no’ to this type of encroachment on the states with their healthcare," Perry said. "So my hope is that we never have to have that stand-up. But I’m certainly willing and ready for the fight if this administration continues to try to force their very expansive government philosophy down our collective throats."

jediab
07-24-2009, 11:39 PM
Satanica: Looks like I was right

Just another reason I wish I could move to Texas. :D

Elspeth
07-24-2009, 11:51 PM
There seems to be some confusion, so I am going to start a thread were we can discuss the issue.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:H.R.+3200:

The basics...

1. If you have a private policy right now and the bill gets signed on Monday, you will NOT be able to alter your private policy in any way. This is because if you keep your current policy and just alter it, it still would not fall under the new rules and guidlines, and the new rules and guidlines is something you WANT in your policy. But if you DO want to keep it as is ...You can.

2. "What rules and guidlines" ..good question, the bill isn't done yet, but here are a few.

- The insurance companies CANNOT deny coverage when you have been paying for it.
- The insurance companies CANNOT deny you for a pre-existing condition.
- The insurance companies CANNOT pick and chose the healthiest people and just cover them

3. Employer-sponsored plans will have five years to get in compliance with the new regulations, more than enough time to comply.

4. If you want to keep your existing health coverage you can, if you want to change to another private policy then you can. If want to ignore the public option offered by the government, you can. But if you want a choice, then you will go shopping at the NIE (National Insurance Exchange) ..one giant outlet where everybody competes for your business, following the same rules and regulations... on a level playing field.

The Private insurers will be there along side the public plan, you can compare their coverage and prices and make a rational decesion based on the facts before you.

And for those who are confused about the "page 16 fear mongering" by Michelle Bachman .. Here is teh actual text from Page 16...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




SATANITA,


There is no way you can really explain the health care bill because there are several running around the House and the Senate, and the versions keep changing.

What Obama has in mind is what Federal Employees have (including Congresscritters). The government allows all insurance companies to put in bids to be part of their program. There are 60 or so companies that are in the Federal program, all properly bid and assessed. Then the Federal employee can choose an insurance company from this selection. The Fed will pay a set amount which usually equals 75% of most basic plans, like a Blue Cross HMO. If you want a higher-level plan (like a Blue Cross PPO), you pay extra on top of that. In essence, the government bids down healthcare costs and then subsidizes a good portion of it. This is not single payer, this is not Medicare, this is not Medicaid. This is the creation of a pool of private insurers. It works well for Federal employees. I know: several members of my family are Federal employees.

The problem is that the House (Pelosi) and the Senate (Reid) are being pressured by the far left for a single payer plan (like Medicare, which will be in deep trouble by 2020, or Medicaid which is in deep trouble now.) Pelosi's agenda is far different from what Obama suggested. I am no fan of Obama, as you well know, and I have no idea if the Federal plan would work on a large scale, but I do know that the more liberal Dems in Congress want a different kind of plan, which is why they are losing the Blue Dogs and other more conservative Dems.

I think it is hard to say what any actual health plan will do or not do for Americans until there is an actual bill. My fear is that the House and Senate (Reid and Pelosi) will come up with the most costly and inefficient plan possible, which is why I am opposed to the health care bill.

satanica
07-25-2009, 09:15 AM
There's also this:

Obama's plan calls for massive federal; intervention at every level, down to local businesses. In many ways this can and very well will be considered an abrogation of State's rights, as the levels of healthcare in each state are mandated to a great degree by legislation enacted in that state, and not by the federal gov't.

The kind of work involved in incorporating this into law and then into the social fabric will create a great deal of chaos, and it would not surprise me to see more than one state to tell him to go to hell, as they will see this as an intrusion onto their affairs.

There also seems to be no provision for ensuring that thoise in this mandated health care are citizens and not illegals, with more of them creeping over the border every day it will continue to be a drain on resources, manpower, time and eventually will force businesses to succumb to a huge degree of government paperwork.

Fining businesses will require more government oversight down to the local level, and I cannot see many businesses agreeing to some federal inspector waling into theius business and "auditing their books"

One million already invovced in TEA parties.
State revolt against federal gun laws and over regulation

Mandated health care for 300 MILLION people will, in the end, become a cause for a large scale political revolt, it is unsustainable, the costs will blow out as they always do, and there is absolutely no way that the bill as written will ever be enacted in the Senate.

The 10th amendment will become a rallying cry for many states to ignore this...especially in states where illegal immigration is a major thorn in the side of government, Arizona, Texas and others.

This is socialised health care writ large, it is a violation of the principles upon which the nation was founded, it is more than likely going to be the subject of more than one state lawsuit to the USSC stating that the entire plan is an abrogation of states rights...and therefore unconstitutional under the 10th Amendment

If they agree....thats the end.

The last time this kind of argument happened was in the 1800's...and we all know how that ended.


Got a link for any of that nonsense ?

Thats what I thought.

satanica
07-25-2009, 09:15 AM
SATANITA,


There is no way you can really explain the health care bill because there are several running around the House and the Senate, and the versions keep changing.

What Obama has in mind is what Federal Employees have (including Congresscritters). The government allows all insurance companies to put in bids to be part of their program. There are 60 or so companies that are in the Federal program, all properly bid and assessed. Then the Federal employee can choose an insurance company from this selection. The Fed will pay a set amount which usually equals 75% of most basic plans, like a Blue Cross HMO. If you want a higher-level plan (like a Blue Cross PPO), you pay extra on top of that. In essence, the government bids down healthcare costs and then subsidizes a good portion of it. This is not single payer, this is not Medicare, this is not Medicaid. This is the creation of a pool of private insurers. It works well for Federal employees. I know: several members of my family are Federal employees.

The problem is that the House (Pelosi) and the Senate (Reid) are being pressured by the far left for a single payer plan (like Medicare, which will be in deep trouble by 2020, or Medicaid which is in deep trouble now.) Pelosi's agenda is far different from what Obama suggested. I am no fan of Obama, as you well know, and I have no idea if the Federal plan would work on a large scale, but I do know that the more liberal Dems in Congress want a different kind of plan, which is why they are losing the Blue Dogs and other more conservative Dems.

I think it is hard to say what any actual health plan will do or not do for Americans until there is an actual bill. My fear is that the House and Senate (Reid and Pelosi) will come up with the most costly and inefficient plan possible, which is why I am opposed to the health care bill.


Do you have a linbk for any of that nonsense ?

Elspeth
07-25-2009, 09:59 PM
Do you have a linbk for any of that nonsense ?

Satanita,

Let's start with the Washington Post for a description of the plans. Obama has said he wants every American to have the healthcare that Federal Employees, including members of Congress have. The Clintons and Obama are on the same page here. Look what they are describing:



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/24/AR2009072402096.html

On Choice

Clinton: "I propose to give every American a choice among high quality plans. You can stay with your current doctor, join a network of doctors and hospitals, or join a health maintenance organization . . . The choice will be left to the American citizen, the worker, not the boss and certainly not some government bureaucrat."

Obama: "Now, if you don't have health insurance, or you're a small business looking to cover your employees, you'll be able to choose a quality affordable health plan through a health insurance exchange, in a marketplace that promotes choice and competition."



That health insurance exchange is exactly what the Federal workers have. That is the model. The problem for the US plan is that Federal workers are a small group, relative to the nation as a whole, and the exchange IS their employer-paid health insurance. To make it larger and still economical, the Federal goverment would have pull in everyone, sick and well, and the insurance companies would have to compete to be part of the pool. And, yes, this would make other forms of PRIVATE health insurance to skyrocket since the companies have to make their loss up somewhere.


I also suggest that you read some of Obama's statements in depth to understand where he is coming from.

Here is one that's pretty easy reading:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/22/AR2009072202522.html

I will not offer you links to GAO studies or anything statistically substantial because you don't have the brain for it.

rushrules
07-27-2009, 05:02 PM
What you Liberal jerks don't understand is that HEALTH INSURANCE IS NOT A RIGHT!!!! If you're too broke to afford health insurance, it's not everyone else's responsibility to give it to you, and this is why the "Public option" is so offensive to those of us who love the Constitution!! There are poor people who cannot afford things, and that's the way it should be! To think that a bum or a welfare mother should have the same level of anything as a working, middle class or rich person is ludicrous!!!

Your life is the culmination of all the decisions you've made along the way, and if you're too damned poor to provide for yourself, then it's not my responsibility to do it for you..

Obama is trying to make it so that poor people aren't poor, but not by putting them to work-he's trying to do it by giving them everyone else's stuff!!! Bullshit!!!!

There is no health care crisis-there is not one American who does not have access to health care if they need it-not one!!

You are so right stsinner. If you loose your job and your so your insurance and, you can't get another job, then you and your family don't deserve to see a doctor. Period.

You want to see something really disgusting check out the link below. Doctors volunteering their time to give poor people three days of free health and dental care. Talk about un-american activities. The guy that founded it was born in Britain.

The do-gooders started helping poor trash in third world countries. Now they spend most of their time meddling with the poor trash in our country. I say commies go home. The poor in this country should have more dignity that the take handouts from foreigners!

And as long as we are talking about health insurance not being a right, what about food? That shouldn't be a right either, cause that aint in the constitution either . Food banks, food stamps, soup kitchens should all be abolished. If you cant earn money to support you and your kids then you all should starve. We shouldn't have to spend our hard earned money to feed you. I'd rather throw food in the garbage then give it to some lazy out of work trash.

And I don't want to hear any crap about you got cancer, or you're a quadriplegic from a motorcycle accident, or you blew your left nut off cleaning your Magnum. You can get a job doing something somewhere, and ALL jobs pay enough for you to buy yourself health insurance.

That's what President George W. Bush did. He came from nothing and by working himself through school he made it to President. The exact opposite of that Obama jerk. He had everything handed to him on a silver spoon.

I personally think this whole health care clinic thing was staged by a bunch of left wing liars. I don't see any blacks in the pictures, and I know there ain't that many white folks in this country that would have to go to clinics like that. Damn Liberal Liars!

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Kadie/484

Jfor
07-27-2009, 05:08 PM
You are so right stsinner. If you loose your job and your so your insurance and, you can't get another job, then you and your family don't deserve to see a doctor. Period.

You want to see something really disgusting check out the link below. Doctors volunteering their time to give poor people three days of free health and dental care. Talk about un-american activities. The guy that founded it was born in Britain.

The do-gooders started helping poor trash in third world countries. Now they spend most of their time meddling with the poor trash in our country. I say commies go home. The poor in this country should have more dignity that the take handouts from foreigners!

And as long as we are talking about health insurance not being a right, what about food? That shouldn't be a right either, cause that aint in the constitution either . Food banks, food stamps, soup kitchens should all be abolished. If you cant earn money to support you and your kids then you all should starve. We shouldn't have to spend our hard earned money to feed you. I'd rather throw food in the garbage then give it to some lazy out of work trash.

And I don't want to hear any crap about you got cancer, or you're a quadriplegic from a motorcycle accident, or you blew your left nut off cleaning your Magnum. You can get a job doing something somewhere, and ALL jobs pay enough for you to buy yourself health insurance.

That's what President George W. Bush did. He came from nothing and by working himself through school he made it to President. The exact opposite of that Obama jerk. He had everything handed to him on a silver spoon.

I personally think this whole health care clinic thing was staged by a bunch of left wing liars. I don't see any blacks in the pictures, and I know there ain't that many white folks in this country that would have to go to clinics like that. Damn Liberal Liars!

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Kadie/484




FOAD troll

aerojarod
07-27-2009, 05:18 PM
You are so right stsinner. If you loose your job and your so your insurance and, you can't get another job, then you and your family don't deserve to see a doctor. Period.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Kadie/484

Quite right. And since this country has absolutely no history of compassion for the poor and downtrodden, we MUST make efforts to have the care of these noble individuals a matter of the Federal Government. No Church, community outreach group, local or State organization, or individual would ever be charitable enough to support their fellow citizens in need. In fact, it wouldn't even be expected of them... our Founders wrote the Constitution to ensure that Federal powers would look after the best interests of each and every person. State rights be damned.

Besides what good is a social safety net if those that partake can get back on their feet and find themselves self sufficient again? What reason would they have for voting to keep progressives is office if they dont' need the handouts anymore? Better make this new Healthcare reform more like bear-trap... drive out competition and make sure people have to stay with the Public option. After all, we know what's best for them, duh.

Zafod
07-27-2009, 05:19 PM
FOAD troll

RushRules is a sock puppet created by Satanica....

Zafod
07-27-2009, 05:37 PM
hey satty, why are you hiding behind a sock puppet now?

rushrules
07-27-2009, 05:41 PM
RushRules is a sock puppet created by Satanica....

Sorry to disappoint but I don't know who Satanica or satty is, and today is my first day on your fine site. The web is a very big place with millions of people on it. It's not just a few dozen people faking identities.

And don't worry when I finally do leave this site I won't be "sock puppet-ing" back in. While there seem to be some decent reasonable people on this site, IMHO there are also some hateful people with some seriously disturbing views of the world out here too.

And yes Zafod, that's Mr. RushRules to you...

Phillygirl
07-27-2009, 05:42 PM
Sorry to disappoint but I don't know who Satanica is, and today is my fist day on your fine site. The web is a very big place with millions of people on it. It's not just a few dozen people faking identities.

And don't worry when I finally do leave this site I won't be "sock puppet-ing" back in. While there seem to be some decent reasonable people on this site, IMHO there are also some hateful people with some seriously disturbing views of the world out here too.

And yes Zafod, that's Mr. RushRules to you...

They celebrate that day on DU, not here.

rushrules
07-27-2009, 05:45 PM
Ooops.

stsinner
07-27-2009, 05:49 PM
If the government can offer better coverage for cheaper, then we should all be for it.

What planet do you live on? The government has never, ever done anything better and more efficiently than private companies.. Every great thing that's ever been done has been done by private entities!

Your blind love affair with the government has you very disillusioned.

stsinner
07-27-2009, 05:54 PM
$19.85 per month profit per patient does not sound like an outrageous amount of profit to me. You think it might be because of all the fruitcakes up in that area? You know, mental disease is costly. Those New England blue states have a large number of patients with deranged dysfunctional syndrome.

It's not a lot of profit until you talk about states like the Socialist State of Massachusetts-where everyone is required now by law to carry health insurance, so the millions of people who are now forced to pay for it, but are healthy, or young and healthy who never use any medical services help the insurers to make record profits!!

stsinner
07-27-2009, 05:59 PM
You are so right stsinner. If you loose your job and your so your insurance and, you can't get another job, then you and your family don't deserve to see a doctor. Period.

Look, moron, there is not one person in America that cannot get health care if they need it.. By law the hospitals have to treat you if you wander into an ER, even if you can't speak a word of English.. But to say that I should pay to insure you all year long so that you can go to the doctor every time you get the sniffles is nonsense!!! It's not my responsibility to pay for you or anyone else who can't afford non-emergency health care.. It's not my responsibility to cover the bastard-factories multiple child births and the subsequent Ritilin the government schools will likely have their kids on for their entire childhood... The government's plan isn't designed for the people you talk about who have fallen on hard times-they will be back on their feet because they likely have a work ethic.. The president's plan is for all the welfare losers and illegal immigrants who either can't get a job because they don't speak English, have no work ethic, have too many kids to be able to afford daycare, etc.. These are the beneficiaries of the proposed plan, not the working class or the rich..

Our nation has gone from self-reliance to relying on the government to take care of you, and it's disgusting!! The founders set out together to start a new colony, and everyone pulled the wagon.. If you got too sick to pull the wagon, they'd understand, and they'd let you ride on the wagon for a while until you were well enough to pull the wagon again.. But there were always far fewer people riding on the wagon than pulling wagon, but today those numbers are not so far apart.. We're fast reaching the breaking point of how many people can pull the wagon and how many can ride on the wagon....

Don't make stupid, fantastic statements, Satanica..

Zafod
07-27-2009, 06:03 PM
And yes Zafod, that's Mr. RushRules to you...

its what ever I feel like calling you satty.......

stsinner
07-27-2009, 06:03 PM
Sorry to disappoint but I don't know who Satanica or satty is, and today is my first day on your fine site. The web is a very big place with millions of people on it. It's not just a few dozen people faking identities.

And don't worry when I finally do leave this site I won't be "sock puppet-ing" back in. While there seem to be some decent reasonable people on this site, IMHO there are also some hateful people with some seriously disturbing views of the world out here too.

And yes Zafod, that's Mr. RushRules to you...


Ooops.

Not buying it.. If it walks like a duck.. He's too stupid to even act differently.. He'd be more successful if he at least played along for a while while getting subtle jabs in, but noo..

Zafod
07-27-2009, 06:05 PM
Not buying it.. If it walks like a duck.. He's too stupid to even act differently.. He'd be more successful if he at least played along for a while while getting subtle jabs in, but noo..

no shit right?

stsinner
07-27-2009, 06:08 PM
Ooops.. Are we profiling Satanica??

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m247/brassmonkey71/rofllg.gif

SarasotaRepub
07-27-2009, 07:32 PM
God do I have to watch two morons now plus Japandroid/Blinky...:rolleyes::D

Rockntractor
07-27-2009, 07:38 PM
God do I have to watch two morons now plus Japandroid/Blinky...:rolleyes::D

?

Sonnabend
07-27-2009, 07:48 PM
Our "esteemed leader" KRudd wants to federalise the entire health system. At an optimistic estimate, it will costs $10 BILLION per year

For 21 million people.

The US has over 300 million.

Do the math.


THE price tag for Kevin Rudd’s revamped health system could be a tax rise of more than $1000 a year for average income earners (http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/how-youll-pay-for-rudds-medical-revolution/story-e6freuy9-1225755329070). That is how much the Medicare levy would have to rise to fund the $5.7 billion a year the Prime Minister’s reforms will add to the nation’s health bills.

Teetop
07-27-2009, 11:27 PM
God do I have to watch two morons now plus Japandroid/Blinky...:rolleyes::D

Do you wipe their butts too? :D

Hey! Don't blame me. Someone needs to....

just kiddin'...

satanica
07-30-2009, 08:52 PM
Kick.

Rockntractor
07-30-2009, 08:55 PM
Kick.

There is no where to turn Satty! They don't see you. Your on ignore. You have ceased to exist!

satanica
07-30-2009, 09:00 PM
There seems to be some confusion, so I am going to start a thread were we can discuss the issue.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:H.R.+3200:

The basics...

1. If you have a private policy right now and the bill gets signed on Monday, you will NOT be able to alter your private policy in any way. This is because if you keep your current policy and just alter it, it still would not fall under the new rules and guidlines, and the new rules and guidlines is something you WANT in your policy. But if you DO want to keep it as is ...You can.

2. "What rules and guidlines" ..good question, the bill isn't done yet, but here are a few.

- The insurance companies CANNOT deny coverage when you have been paying for it.
- The insurance companies CANNOT deny you for a pre-existing condition.
- The insurance companies CANNOT pick and chose the healthiest people and just cover them

3. Employer-sponsored plans will have five years to get in compliance with the new regulations, more than enough time to comply.

4. If you want to keep your existing health coverage you can, if you want to change to another private policy then you can. If want to ignore the public option offered by the government, you can. But if you want a choice, then you will go shopping at the NIE (National Insurance Exchange) ..one giant outlet where everybody competes for your business, following the same rules and regulations... on a level playing field.

The Private insurers will be there along side the public plan, you can compare their coverage and prices and make a rational decesion based on the facts before you.

And for those who are confused about the "page 16 fear mongering" by Michelle Bachman .. Here is teh actual text from Page 16...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The actual text...OF PAGE 16


(a) Grandfathered Health Insurance Coverage Defined- Subject to the succeeding provisions of this section, for purposes of establishing acceptable coverage under this division, the term `grandfathered health insurance coverage' means individual health insurance coverage that is offered and in force and effect before the first day of Y1 if the following conditions are met:
This means that if you like your insurance you can keep it.

(2) LIMITATION ON CHANGES IN TERMS OR CONDITIONS- Subject to paragraph (3) and except as required by law, the issuer does not change any of its terms or conditions, including benefits and cost-sharing, from those in effect as of the day before the first day of Y1.

This means if you DO CHOSE to keep your insurance, you can't modify it.

(1) IN GENERAL- Individual health insurance coverage that is not grandfathered health insurance coverage under subsection (a) may only be offered on or after the first day of Y1 as an Exchange-participating health benefits plan.

And this means if you leave your job and lose your coverage, or if you just want to change coverage, you have to go to the NIE to buy new coverage. This coverage can be private or public.

REAPEAT ...THIS NEW COVERAGE CAN BE PUBLIC OR PRIVATE, THE NIE (NATIONAL INSURANCE EXCHANGE) WILL BE A CLEARING HOUSE FOR HEALTH INSURANCE, YOU CAN CHOSE A PRIVATE OR PUBLIC PLAN .....BUT YOU DO HAVE TO GO TO THE (NIE) TO GET IT.

YOU WILL BE FORCED TO GO TO THE NIE, BUT YOU WILL NOT BE FORCED TO BUY A PUBLIC PLAN

satanica
07-30-2009, 09:01 PM
There is no where to turn Satty! They don't see you. Your on ignore. You have ceased to exist!

There is always far more visitors here than CU members.

They see everything.

LOL.

You crack jokes... and I debunk lies with links and sources.

They see everything.

Rockntractor
07-30-2009, 09:05 PM
There is always far more visitors here than CU members.

They see everything.

LOL.

You crack jokes... and I debunk lies with links and sources.

They see everything.

Sure they do satty. But they can't tell you. You have to be noticed. All they see now is me playing with you.

satanica
07-30-2009, 09:08 PM
Sure they do satty. But they can't tell you. You have to be noticed. All they see now is me playing with you.

And me debunking every lie with links and sources.

One guy is telling jokes while the other is debunking everything with links and sources.

And you think you come out on top ? ...maybe in romper room.

Rockntractor
07-30-2009, 09:13 PM
And me debunking every lie with links and sources.

One guy is telling jokes while the other is debunking everything with links and sources.

And you think you come out on top ? ...maybe in romper room.

Lets talk about your mental health satty. Will Obama give you your mind back?

asdf2231
07-30-2009, 09:17 PM
How come Stanica/Blarch From DU hasn't posted pics of his Obama Pony yet? :D

BadCat
07-30-2009, 09:20 PM
How come Stanica/Blarch From DU hasn't posted pics of his Obama Pony yet? :D

It's an IMAGINARY pony. It goes with his IMAGINARY wife and his IMAGINARY life.

satanica
07-30-2009, 09:22 PM
. It goes with his IMAGINARY wife and his IMAGINARY life.

Jealous ?

You raided my photobucket account. Saw me and my wife.

Maybe it's YOU who has a imaginary life.

After all, you won't even post a picture of yourself.

LOL

satanica
07-30-2009, 09:22 PM
There seems to be some confusion, so I am going to start a thread were we can discuss the issue.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:H.R.+3200:

The basics...

1. If you have a private policy right now and the bill gets signed on Monday, you will NOT be able to alter your private policy in any way. This is because if you keep your current policy and just alter it, it still would not fall under the new rules and guidlines, and the new rules and guidlines is something you WANT in your policy. But if you DO want to keep it as is ...You can.

2. "What rules and guidlines" ..good question, the bill isn't done yet, but here are a few.

- The insurance companies CANNOT deny coverage when you have been paying for it.
- The insurance companies CANNOT deny you for a pre-existing condition.
- The insurance companies CANNOT pick and chose the healthiest people and just cover them

3. Employer-sponsored plans will have five years to get in compliance with the new regulations, more than enough time to comply.

4. If you want to keep your existing health coverage you can, if you want to change to another private policy then you can. If want to ignore the public option offered by the government, you can. But if you want a choice, then you will go shopping at the NIE (National Insurance Exchange) ..one giant outlet where everybody competes for your business, following the same rules and regulations... on a level playing field.

The Private insurers will be there along side the public plan, you can compare their coverage and prices and make a rational decesion based on the facts before you.

And for those who are confused about the "page 16 fear mongering" by Michelle Bachman .. Here is teh actual text from Page 16...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The actual text...OF PAGE 16


(a) Grandfathered Health Insurance Coverage Defined- Subject to the succeeding provisions of this section, for purposes of establishing acceptable coverage under this division, the term `grandfathered health insurance coverage' means individual health insurance coverage that is offered and in force and effect before the first day of Y1 if the following conditions are met:
This means that if you like your insurance you can keep it.

(2) LIMITATION ON CHANGES IN TERMS OR CONDITIONS- Subject to paragraph (3) and except as required by law, the issuer does not change any of its terms or conditions, including benefits and cost-sharing, from those in effect as of the day before the first day of Y1.

This means if you DO CHOSE to keep your insurance, you can't modify it.

(1) IN GENERAL- Individual health insurance coverage that is not grandfathered health insurance coverage under subsection (a) may only be offered on or after the first day of Y1 as an Exchange-participating health benefits plan.

And this means if you leave your job and lose your coverage, or if you just want to change coverage, you have to go to the NIE to buy new coverage. This coverage can be private or public.

REAPEAT ...THIS NEW COVERAGE CAN BE PUBLIC OR PRIVATE, THE NIE (NATIONAL INSURANCE EXCHANGE) WILL BE A CLEARING HOUSE FOR HEALTH INSURANCE, YOU CAN CHOSE A PRIVATE OR PUBLIC PLAN .....BUT YOU DO HAVE TO GO TO THE (NIE) TO GET IT.

YOU WILL BE FORCED TO GO TO THE NIE, BUT YOU WILL NOT BE FORCED TO BUY A PUBLIC PLAN

BadCat
07-30-2009, 09:29 PM
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f132/PhatAlbert426/222_PeachPie.jpg

Rockntractor
07-30-2009, 09:29 PM
Jealous ?

You raided my photobucket account. Saw me and my wife.

Maybe it's YOU who has a imaginary life.

After all, you won't even post a picture of yourself.

LOL

You said it was your wife. I'm thinking sister!

Rockntractor
07-30-2009, 09:31 PM
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f132/PhatAlbert426/222_PeachPie.jpg

Mmmmm! Lord have mercy. You got ice cream to go with that?

Gingersnap
07-30-2009, 09:33 PM
Did someone mention a pony? And pie? :D

Rockntractor
07-30-2009, 09:38 PM
Did someone mention a pony? And pie? :D

It looks like a light flaky crust to!

patriot45
07-30-2009, 09:43 PM
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f132/PhatAlbert426/222_PeachPie.jpg

Finally! We can use PIE against it!!!

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i230/patriot45270/potd_pi-pie.jpg

patriot45
07-30-2009, 09:53 PM
Fresh pie coming right up!

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i230/patriot45270/pooppie.jpg