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SarasotaRepub
08-20-2009, 01:50 PM
GREENOCK, Scotland (CNN) -- The man convicted of murdering 270 people by blowing Pan Am flight 103 out of the sky above the Scottish town of Lockerbie two decades ago was on his way home to Libya on Thursday after authorities set him free.

Abdelbeset Ali Mohmed al Megrahi, 57, is suffering terminal prostate cancer and has three months to live. Scottish Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill ordered al Megrahi's release on compassionate grounds, saying he will be "going home to die."


LINK (http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/08/20/scotland.lockerbie.bomber/index.html)


I'm at a loss for words...

Jfor
08-20-2009, 04:44 PM
Should have let him rot in a hole.

Jumpy
08-20-2009, 04:50 PM
Unbelievable. This has to be like a kick in the face to the families of the victims.

stsinner
08-20-2009, 05:12 PM
That plane should NOT make it to its destination....

FlaGator
08-20-2009, 06:22 PM
I know you guys don't want to hear this and I understand the anger that decisions like this create. However (and you knew this was coming from me)


For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Now you have to ask yourself, as people who believe in God, is your anger at this individual worth the sacrifice of you soul? Will it bring any satisfaction to spend eternity with this individual?

Peace be with you!:)

expat-pattaya
08-20-2009, 06:22 PM
The plane should arrive unharmed. Minus one passenger :rolleyes:

SaintLouieWoman
08-20-2009, 10:45 PM
I'm not sure about that terminal cancer, 3 month life expectancy. I thought that prostate cancer was so slow growing that often the docs advocate a wait and see policy. They said they just discovered it last year.

Something just doesn't seem right about this. Maybe I'm too suspicious. Oh, well.

Lars1701a
08-20-2009, 10:48 PM
I'm not sure about that terminal cancer, 3 month life expectancy. I thought that prostate cancer was so slow growing that often the docs advocate a wait and see policy. They said they just discovered it last year.

Something just doesn't seem right about this. Maybe I'm too suspicious. Oh, well.

I think there are a few different types of cancer of the prostate, my 94 year old grandfather had it for years and died from something different. My other Grandfather was in his 70s and died from it rather quickly.


But I think the man should have rotted in jail, with our forgiveness of course.

lacarnut
08-21-2009, 12:41 AM
I know you guys don't want to hear this and I understand the anger that decisions like this create. However (and you knew this was coming from me)



Now you have to ask yourself, as people who believe in God, is your anger at this individual worth the sacrifice of you soul? Will it bring any satisfaction to spend eternity with this individual?

Peace be with you!:)

The decision was made to release him based on money and oil rather than any humanitarian or godly concerns. Plus, the President of the US could have pressured the Scots into extraditing him to this country for trial.

FlaGator
08-21-2009, 06:13 AM
The decision was made to release him based on money and oil rather than any humanitarian or godly concerns. Plus, the President of the US could have pressured the Scots into extraditing him to this country for trial.

I wasn't talking about his release when I spoke of forgiveness. I was referencing the anger by many at his release. Anger and vindictiveness are very destructive to the spiritual health of a person whether that person is a believer nor not. My concern was more for those who are angry at his release than the justice or injustice of his release. The Lord will ultimately judge this man and that is good enough for me. Since justice will come, why waste the time and your energy with anger?

expat-pattaya
08-21-2009, 07:03 AM
I think there are a few different types of cancer of the prostate, my 94 year old grandfather had it for years and died from something different. My other Grandfather was in his 70s and died from it rather quickly.


But I think the man should have rotted in jail, with our forgiveness of course.

I'm not the forgiving type. Let him rot in jail an extra week AFTER he is dead then release his body if any next of kin want it.

Sonnabend
08-21-2009, 07:34 AM
Should have let him rot in a hole.

Should have woken him at dawn for a firing squad.

SarasotaRepub
08-21-2009, 07:43 AM
This clown strikes me as the type that might strap-on
a bomb pack and make a "glorious" exit to Allah. :rolleyes:

Hope I'm wrong.

NJCardFan
08-21-2009, 11:38 AM
He was greeted with cheers when he arrived in Libya. Not only did this nut kill innocent people, it was also the death of a very popular airline. This single event signaled the death of Pan Am. Just like the TWA 800 explosion led to TWA being absorbed by American.

jinxmchue
08-21-2009, 03:06 PM
You know what the biggest joke about this story was? Obama coming out condemning the guy's release. Yep, Mr. "Close-Gitmo-and-send-them-to-Michigan" condemned this guy's release.

Lars1701a
08-21-2009, 03:08 PM
You know what the biggest joke about this story was? Obama coming out condemning the guy's release. Yep, Mr. "Close-Gitmo-and-send-them-to-Michigan" condemned this guy's release.

It was a cheap way to pick up some "I am tough against terrorists" cred.

lacarnut
08-21-2009, 03:32 PM
I wasn't talking about his release when I spoke of forgiveness. I was referencing the anger by many at his release. Anger and vindictiveness are very destructive to the spiritual health of a person whether that person is a believer nor not. My concern was more for those who are angry at his release than the justice or injustice of his release. The Lord will ultimately judge this man and that is good enough for me. Since justice will come, why waste the time and your energy with anger?

God will not forgive a sinner who does not repent. This monster showed no remorse. So if God will not forgive him, why should I? My concern is for the family members.

He should have been executed to start off. The release of him might lead to the death of more people. That is a possibility. Anger is a natural emotion in my opinion while hatred is not.

FlaGator
08-21-2009, 07:15 PM
God will not forgive a sinner who does not repent. This monster showed no remorse. So if God will not forgive him, why should I? My concern is for the family members.

He should have been executed to start off. The release of him might lead to the death of more people. That is a possibility. Anger is a natural emotion in my opinion while hatred is not.

Because God says you have to forgive otherwise He will not forgive you. Christ also speaks about anger. I suspect you won't like what He has to say about that either.

lacarnut
08-21-2009, 08:07 PM
Because God says you have to forgive otherwise He will not forgive you. Christ also speaks about anger. I suspect you won't like what He has to say about that either.

I was always under the impression that forgiveness only applied to those that show remorse. Jesus and God showed anger because of the sins of man. I am a believer but I think that anger is a natural emotion. People that keep all that pent up anger inside do crazy things. Best to let it out and get over it.

Rockntractor
08-21-2009, 08:31 PM
Because God says you have to forgive otherwise He will not forgive you. Christ also speaks about anger. I suspect you won't like what He has to say about that either.

You forgive those who ask forgiveness just like God forgives those who ask for forgiveness. If this man has not asked for our forgiveness which I do not know at this point none is required!

FlaGator
08-21-2009, 10:13 PM
You forgive those who ask forgiveness just like God forgives those who ask for forgiveness. If this man has not asked for our forgiveness which I do not know at this point none is required!

Jesus died for our sins and forgives for our sins even when we still sin. Christ said that we are to forgive those who wrong us, even our enemies. When Christ was nailed to the cross no one had asked to be forgiven but yet He died in order to save us.


"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'
But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that?
And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?
Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Matthew 5:43-48

How can you show love to your enemies if you do not forgive them and how can they still be enemies if they have asked you to forgive them? This verse asks us to raise above our nature and love those who may not deserve it. God loves us and we don't deserve it. Christ sacrificed himself for the sins of the world to be forgiven and all sins are forgiven, but only those who recognize His sacrifice are going to be saved.

Then there is this which I mentioned above.

For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
Matthew 6:14-15
It says nothing about someone seeking forgiveness. It says simply that you are to forgive them. God forgive you before you asked for forgiveness, He expects you to do as he would. Keep in mind that works can not earn you salvation, only God's grace can do that. So if you are required to forgive as the above quote states then forgiveness must be a sign of salvation otherwise the requirement to forgive would be a work.



For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
Mark 11:25

Again, no reference to having them make the first move. At no place in the New Testament is there a reference to the person asking another person to forgive them before forgiveness is offered. You forgive them whether they ask for it or not. By forgiving them, they may be moved to repent. If God had waited around for us to ask to be forgiven He'd have waited until judgement day and then it would be too late for us.

FlaGator
08-21-2009, 10:22 PM
I was always under the impression that forgiveness only applied to those that show remorse. Jesus and God showed anger because of the sins of man. I am a believer but I think that anger is a natural emotion. People that keep all that pent up anger inside do crazy things. Best to let it out and get over it.

True forgiveness releases the rage. How can you be angry with someone whom you have forgiven? Trust me I get angry more often that I'd care to admit, but it is at those times I try to pray and give it to God. Remember anger is just a response to stimuli and responses can be conditioned away. There was a time when I would have loved to see this guy rot in hell but now I can only feel pity for him because he is going home to die, to a place that is going to tell him that he is a hero and because of that he will never know how much he needs God's love and forgiveness. Unless he learns that, then he is only at an oasis on his way to hell.

Rockntractor
08-21-2009, 10:33 PM
Luke 17:3-4 ESV

Pay attention to yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him, and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”

FlaGator
08-21-2009, 10:46 PM
Luke 17:3-4 ESV

Pay attention to yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him, and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”

That is verse, I believe, references not holding grudges. The verse is related to Matthew 18:21-22


Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?"
Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.


The context is not should I wait to be asked to for forgiveness but is there a point that I should not forgive. Christ's answer it to always forgive.

When did Christ forgive you of your sins? When you asked or when he was sacrificed?

Rockntractor
08-21-2009, 10:51 PM
What is forgiveness?
It is the odor that flowers breathe when they are trampled upon.

FlaGator
08-21-2009, 10:57 PM
What is forgiveness?
It is the odor that flowers breathe when they are trampled upon.

Forgiveness is accepting the loss of another's debt.

SarasotaRepub
08-22-2009, 08:02 PM
This POS was welcomed back to his country as a hero. Anyone
watching the TV (no doubt edited by Rove :rolleyes:) will see this.

Rockntractor
08-22-2009, 08:21 PM
This POS was welcomed back to his country as a hero. Anyone
watching the TV (no doubt edited by Rove :rolleyes:) will see this.
It would appear to some that the right thing to do is forgive murderers and release them. If he asks forgiveness I have no problem forgiving him but the people he killed don't have this option. He should have served his time and paid his debt. You can be forgiven and live your life in prison!

PoliCon
08-22-2009, 08:27 PM
GREENOCK, Scotland (CNN) -- The man convicted of murdering 270 people by blowing Pan Am flight 103 out of the sky above the Scottish town of Lockerbie two decades ago was on his way home to Libya on Thursday after authorities set him free.

Abdelbeset Ali Mohmed al Megrahi, 57, is suffering terminal prostate cancer and has three months to live. Scottish Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill ordered al Megrahi's release on compassionate grounds, saying he will be "going home to die."


LINK (http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/08/20/scotland.lockerbie.bomber/index.html)


I'm at a loss for words...

and where is the compassion for the people he killed??? WTF!?

PoliCon
08-22-2009, 08:29 PM
I know you guys don't want to hear this and I understand the anger that decisions like this create. However (and you knew this was coming from me)



Now you have to ask yourself, as people who believe in God, is your anger at this individual worth the sacrifice of you soul? Will it bring any satisfaction to spend eternity with this individual?

Peace be with you!:)


Forgiveness is accepting the loss of another's debt.

Forgiveness does not eliminate restitution.

PoliCon
08-22-2009, 08:30 PM
This POS was welcomed back to his country as a hero. Anyone
watching the TV (no doubt edited by Rove :rolleyes:) will see this.

Of course he was. Who didn't expect him to heralded as a hero?

FlaGator
08-23-2009, 12:13 AM
Forgiveness does not eliminate restitution.

When a debtor forgives your debt, what is that?

PoliCon
08-23-2009, 06:57 PM
When a debtor forgives your debt, what is that?

Who is the debtor in this case? In truth, there are MANY. There are all the families of the people killed and society as a whole. Plus there are different ways to forgive. I can forgive you for breaking my window but that does not require that I excuse you the debt you owe me for the replacement of that window - AND if you went on a binge and broke dozens of windows - or hundreds - well then society has an obligation to make sure you do not repeat your crime on others.

FlaGator
08-23-2009, 07:30 PM
Who is the debtor in this case? In truth, there are MANY. There are all the families of the people killed and society as a whole. Plus there are different ways to forgive. I can forgive you for breaking my window but that does not require that I excuse you the debt you owe me for the replacement of that window - AND if you went on a binge and broke dozens of windows - or hundreds - well then society has an obligation to make sure you do not repeat your crime on others.

I look at forgiveness as Christ taught us.


Matt 18:23-35 Therefore the Kingdom of Heaven is like a certain king, who wanted to reconcile accounts with his servants. When he had begun to reconcile, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. But because he couldn’t pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, with his wife, his children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. The servant therefore fell down and kneeled before him, saying, ‘Lord, have patience with me, and I will repay you all!’ The lord of that servant, being moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt. "But that servant went out, and found one of his fellow servants, who owed him one hundred denarii, and he grabbed him, and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’ "So his fellow servant fell down at his feet and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will repay you!’ He would not, but went and cast him into prison, until he should pay back that which was due. So when his fellow servants saw what was done, they were exceedingly sorry, and came and told to their lord all that was done. Then his lord called him in, and said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt, because you begged me. Shouldn’t you also have had mercy on your fellow servant, even as I had mercy on you?’ His lord was angry, and delivered him to the tormentors, until he should pay all that was due to him. So my heavenly Father will also do to you, if you don’t each forgive your brother from your hearts for his misdeeds."

That is the forgiveness of God and the forgiveness that Christ speaks of when he stated that if we can't forgive then our heavenly Father will not forgive us. Neither man as for forgiveness, just more time but in one case the master forgive the debt, it was not owed. In the other case the wicked servant would not forgive the debt and he lost the affection of the master.

We can rangle words around but to me that is the only type of forgiveness. Anything else is less than God's ideal of forgiveness and how not in line with what Christ taught us. All else is man's imperfect idea of forgiveness.

Rockntractor
08-23-2009, 07:44 PM
I look at forgiveness as Christ taught us.



That is the forgiveness of God and the forgiveness that Christ speaks of when he stated that if we can't forgive then our heavenly Father will not forgive us. Neither man as for forgiveness, just more time but in one case the master forgive the debt, it was not owed. In the other case the wicked servant would not forgive the debt and he lost the affection of the master.

We can rangle words around but to me that is the only type of forgiveness. Anything else is less than God's ideal of forgiveness and how not in line with what Christ taught us. All else is man's imperfect idea of forgiveness.

Christ didn't teach any society to be lenient toward criminals and allow guilty murderers to run free in society. You no better than this!

FlaGator
08-23-2009, 10:40 PM
Christ didn't teach any society to be lenient toward criminals and allow guilty murderers to run free in society. You no better than this!

You are completely missing my point. At no time did I suggest that. Can you show me where I have suggested such a thing? I've been discussing forgiveness in general but I did use the release of the one individual as an example. The point that I was trying to make was geared more towards people's outrage at what Scotland has done. Instead of the hatred and anger that people felt over his release the best choice was to forgive the guy and let the anger go.

PoliCon
08-23-2009, 10:44 PM
I look at forgiveness as Christ taught us.



That is the forgiveness of God and the forgiveness that Christ speaks of when he stated that if we can't forgive then our heavenly Father will not forgive us. Neither man as for forgiveness, just more time but in one case the master forgive the debt, it was not owed. In the other case the wicked servant would not forgive the debt and he lost the affection of the master.

We can rangle words around but to me that is the only type of forgiveness. Anything else is less than God's ideal of forgiveness and how not in line with what Christ taught us. All else is man's imperfect idea of forgiveness.

a fine lesson for individuals.

Rockntractor
08-23-2009, 10:50 PM
You are completely missing my point. At no time did I suggest that. Can you show me where I have suggested such a thing? I've been discussing forgiveness in general but I did use the release of the one individual as an example. The point that I was trying to make was geared more towards people's outrage at what Scotland has done. Instead of the hatred and anger that people felt over his release the best choice was to forgive the guy and let the anger go.

There is a time for forgiveness and a time for righteous indignation I will let others on the board decide which is appropriate here!

FlaGator
08-23-2009, 11:10 PM
a fine lesson for individuals.

Individual forgiveness is all I have been referring to. All my points have be geared toward the individual, in particular the individual Christian. What gave you the impression I was referring to corporate forgiveness or what governmental forgiveness?

noonwitch
08-24-2009, 11:20 AM
You know what the biggest joke about this story was? Obama coming out condemning the guy's release. Yep, Mr. "Close-Gitmo-and-send-them-to-Michigan" condemned this guy's release.


At least I am not a hypocritical Michigan liberal-I wanted Gitmo closed, and I have no problem with housing the detainees in Standish, MI. I'd say put them in the Detroit prisons, which are 3 miles from my house, but those prisons are not maximum security.



It'll keep some jobs in the state. Standish is in the middle of nowhere. The people in that area who aren't farmers need their jobs.

AmPat
08-24-2009, 05:14 PM
Terminally ill Lockerbie bomber released In other news; Victims of Lockerbie murderer still Terminally dead.:mad:

RobJohnson
08-25-2009, 03:09 AM
You forgive those who ask forgiveness just like God forgives those who ask for forgiveness. If this man has not asked for our forgiveness which I do not know at this point none is required!

AMEN


I don't forgive terrorists.

I'm sure we will be hearing the rest of the story soon, what kind of favor will Scotland get in return?

lacarnut
08-25-2009, 08:14 AM
AMEN


I don't forgive terrorists.

I'm sure we will be hearing the rest of the story soon, what kind of favor will Scotland get in return?

Prime Minister Brown is in deep do do over this. Looks really fishy. Like in oil for prisoner release.

Apocalypse
09-06-2009, 10:39 PM
**UPDATE!!**




British officials claim Mr Obama and Mrs Clinton were kept informed at all stages of discussions concerning Megrahi’s return.


The officials say the Americans spoke out because they were taken aback by the row over Megrahi’s release, not because they did not know it was about to happen.


‘The US was kept fully in touch about everything that was going on with regard to Britain’s discussions with Libya in recent years and about Megrahi,’ said the Whitehall aide.


‘We would never do anything about Lockerbie without discussing it with the US. It is disingenuous of them to act as though Megrahi’s return was out of the blue.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1211495/No-10-turns-Obama-Clinton-criticising-decision-release-Lockerbie-bomber.html
Is this shit impeachable!?