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Junebug68
07-13-2008, 11:42 AM
Anyone who knows me know I am very pro-life, so threads like this just piss me off :mad:


Liberals STILL suck at explaining why abortion should be legal.
You ready for a flamefest?

We're losing ground on the abortion issue, and that's in large part because when we speak about it we speak in dogmatic terms. There's no actual reasoning, only question-begging.

Why should abortion be legal? Because women have the right to choose.

That's not enough. You have to set out the reasoning for why women have abortion rights.

Take the Iraq War as an example. If someone asks you why we shouldn't have gone into Iraq, you can't just say "Because it was wrong." That's not a reason. It's begging the question. Instead, you say things like, "Because it's wrong to attack a country who hasn't attacked us, and we've killed hundreds of thousands of innocent people, distracted ourselves from rooting out Al Qaeda, wasted hundreds of billions, even trillions of dollars, destroyed the goodwill the world had for us after 9/11, etc." That's reasoning.

Now, believe it or not, you can reason your way to abortion rights. You don't have to limit yourself to yelling and shaking your fist and brute repetition of the desired conclusion itself. I'm not going to give reasoning here, lest I be accused of arrogance and chauvinism, but I will tell you that the way we've been going won't hold up and there is another way. Both sides of the issue have been relying on dogma to prop up their arguments for so long, and the religious side is winning due to their organization. Yes, if we're going to win we have to actually explain why we're right. And that's when we'll win, because dogma and the Bible is all the fascists have.

So I'm a facist for wanted an innocent child to have a chance at life? :mad:


BullGooseLoony (1000+ posts) Sat Jul-12-08 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. That's pretty much it if we elaborate a bit.
Edited on Sat Jul-12-08 04:03 PM by BullGooseLoony
The state can't force a person to allow a fetus to feed off of their body without violating their liberty interests. A woman has the right to stop that process at any time during pregnancy, for any reason. She doesn't even need a justification, at all- it's absolute.
You kind of have to attack the law itself, what would be done to stop abortion if they could get it passed. The state would be overstepping its authority.

What about violating the baby's liberty?


BullGooseLoony (1000+ posts) Sat Jul-12-08 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #2
15. The great thing about a proper pro-choice argument is that it takes personhood into account.
Whether the fetus is a person or not, it doesn't have the right to use someone else's body to sustain itself against that person's will.

Ridiculous! The baby has no say in the matter, why should they be deprived of life?


notadmblnd (1000+ posts) Sat Jul-12-08 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. as long as it lives and breaths out side of the womb, then IMO it has a right to live.
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jody (1000+ posts) Sat Jul-12-08 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. "lives and breaths out side of the womb" with or without help? n/t
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notadmblnd (1000+ posts) Sat Jul-12-08 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. without assistance. I would no more put a baby on life support than I would my aged mother.

WTF???

I couldn't even stomach reading the rest of the thread :mad:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3607209

megimoo
07-13-2008, 01:09 PM
Anyone who knows me know I am very pro-life, so threads like this just piss me off :mad:



So I'm a facist for wanted an innocent child to have a chance at life? :mad:



What about violating the baby's liberty?



Ridiculous! The baby has no say in the matter, why should they be deprived of life?



WTF???

I couldn't even stomach reading the rest of the thread :mad:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3607209With all of the ways to avoid getting pregnant in the first place only the very young or the very stupid would need an abortion.

Eyelids
07-13-2008, 01:13 PM
Abortion is legal and its going to stay that way. Deal with it Ms. Ambulance Driver.

buck
07-13-2008, 01:31 PM
BullGooseLoony (1000+ posts) Sat Jul-12-08 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #2
15. The great thing about a proper pro-choice argument is that it takes personhood into account.
Whether the fetus is a person or not, it doesn't have the right to use someone else's body to sustain itself against that person's will.

If this guy were consistent he would use nearly the exact same argument against welfare and state sponsored healthcare.

Eyelids
07-13-2008, 01:34 PM
I just dont see why you guys care about this.

Junebug68
07-13-2008, 01:47 PM
Abortion is legal and its going to stay that way. Deal with it Ms. Ambulance Driver.

Excuse me? I am not an "ambulance driver." I am an Emergency Medical Technician and an RN and if, God forbid, you or someone you loved ever had to call 911, you'd be damn glad to see me and would never insult me that way to my face. But then again, you just reinforce my opinion that you are lower than dirt on the evolutionary ladder with every word you type.

CLibertarian
07-13-2008, 01:52 PM
With all of the ways to avoid getting pregnant in the first place only the very young or the very stupid would need an abortion.

Many of the more Liberal minded people that I know here in the midwest (conservative in comparison to the east coast, left coast, and urban cesspools) seem to lean Pro-Life but, are still reluctant to declare it illegal. More and more, I hear references to promoting present birth control methods/technology that are available. Even the "Pro"-Life Liberals have disdain for abortion simply being used as a form of birth control when contraception exists and will be given out for free in many places. The end result is a belief that steps should be taken to eliminate the "necessisty" for abortion. While their logic is flawed in that they perceive some abortions to be a necessity, it would still have the same result of reducing/eliminating abortions.

As a Pro-Life person, I would have no problem with it being declared illegal. In fact, I would prefer that to occur. However, I'm also willing to accept smaller steps toward that logical end. Some staunch Pro-Lifers have issues with this view. They are not willing to accept anything but, a declaration of illegality. By alientating such views, even from Liberals, they shut out a vast majority that would still eventually achieve the desired results.

megimoo
07-13-2008, 01:54 PM
Abortion is legal and its going to stay that way. Deal with it Ms. Ambulance Driver.Isn't it a shame that the Abortionists missed you foul mouth !
After Obama has his ass handed to him and President McCain appoints a few more real judges to the court we shall see .Deal with that bird brain !

Eyelids
07-13-2008, 02:03 PM
Excuse me? I am not an "ambulance driver." I am an Emergency Medical Technician and an RN and if, God forbid, you or someone you loved ever had to call 911, you'd be damn glad to see me and would never insult me that way to my face. But then again, you just reinforce my opinion that you are lower than dirt on the evolutionary ladder with every word you type.

Erm... whats it take to be an EMT? 2 years at the community college taking gen ed classes?

Gas is on the right, brake is on the left and wheel in the middle... only the turn on the sirens for emergencies.

megimoo
07-13-2008, 02:20 PM
Many of the more Liberal minded people that I know here in the midwest (conservative in comparison to the east coast, left coast, and urban cesspools) seem to lean Pro-Life but, are still reluctant to declare it illegal. More and more, I hear references to promoting present birth control methods/technology that are available. Even the "Pro"-Life Liberals have disdain for abortion simply being used as a form of birth control when contraception exists and will be given out for free in many places. The end result is a belief that steps should be taken to eliminate the "necessisty" for abortion. While their logic is flawed in that they perceive some abortions to be a necessity, it would still have the same result of reducing/eliminating abortions.

As a Pro-Life person, I would have no problem with it being declared illegal. In fact, I would prefer that to occur. However, I'm also willing to accept smaller steps toward that logical end. Some staunch Pro-Lifers have issues with this view. They are not willing to accept anything but, a declaration of illegality. By alientating such views, even from Liberals, they shut out a vast majority that would still eventually achieve the desired results.

I agree .There are always some real Medical circumstances that could justify an abortion but the taking of a new human life just for the 'convenience ' of a confused and frightened young girl is wrong.

Organizations exist to help any mother to receive the free help and medical care she needs for herself and her new baby and people are 'lined up in the streets' waiting to adopt a new child rather than kill it !

If you would care for an example of the extreme fear and hypocrisy of the pro Abortion gang simple post a link to a 'slaughter house abortion mill' in all of its gory picture details and stand by for the shrikes of outrage from the pro Abortionists !

The precess of conception and birth once started are not to be hindered by a money driven Abortion Corporation with a political agenda IMHO !

Junebug68
07-13-2008, 02:38 PM
Erm... whats it take to be an EMT? 2 years at the community college taking gen ed classes?

Gas is on the right, brake is on the left and wheel in the middle... only the turn on the sirens for emergencies.

Are you kidding me? Why don't you go say the same sort of things to a policeman or a fireman and see how far you get? Tell me, how many times have you done CPR? How many lives have you literally saved? How many people have you pulled out of mangled vehicles? Do you really think all we are is a taxi service? Then why don't you promise me that you'll never call 911; after all, you know yourself where the gas pedal is :rolleyes:

So what do you think about nurses then Eyesore?

movie buff
07-13-2008, 03:03 PM
I just dont see why you guys care about this.

Because innocent babies are being killed by abortion every day, often just for the convenience of the mother. That just doesn't sit right with us.

asdf2231
07-13-2008, 03:12 PM
Erm... whats it take to be an EMT? 2 years at the community college taking gen ed classes?

Gas is on the right, brake is on the left and wheel in the middle... only the turn on the sirens for emergencies.



http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l307/asdf2231/smileys%20and%20fun/we-all-know-a-retard.jpg

MrsSmith
07-13-2008, 04:44 PM
I just dont see why you guys care about this.

We care for the same reason we would oppose any other cold-blooded murder. Our society is so sick that those who experiment on animals to provide medical care for humans are in much greater danger than those who slaughter over a million humans every year. There are thousands of rules about the humane slaughter of cattle, sheep, chickens...but humans are ripped limb from limb with no anesthetic, no sympathy, no humanity at all...and all done because Mommy wants a dead baby instead of a living one.

x5060
07-13-2008, 04:59 PM
Erm... whats it take to be an EMT? 2 years at the community college taking gen ed classes?

Gas is on the right, brake is on the left and wheel in the middle... only the turn on the sirens for emergencies.

Wow... just... wow...

That statement says a LOT about you and how much you actually know.

Junebug68
07-13-2008, 05:30 PM
Thanks asdf2231 and x5060 :)

blueyonder
07-13-2008, 05:34 PM
Junebug68 Please do not let Eyelids get to you. Sounds like he/she is just trying to bait you. You know you are correct on your position. Keep your head high!

Zathras
07-13-2008, 05:39 PM
Erm... whats it take to be an EMT? 2 years at the community college taking gen ed classes?

Gas is on the right, brake is on the left and wheel in the middle... only the turn on the sirens for emergencies.

Wow, could you be more idiotic in your response....the answer is yes of course, with each response more idiotic than the previous.

Next time you feel like showing your stupidity, don't bother to do research. I, on the other hand, did a bit for you and here's what I came up with:


According to the US Dept of Labor, this is the training/certification you need to be an EMT:

Formal training and certification is needed to become an EMT or paramedic. A high school diploma is typically required to enter a formal training program. Some programs offer an associate degree along with the formal EMT training. All 50 States have a certification procedure. In most States and the District of Columbia, registration with the NREMT is required at some or all levels of certification. Other States administer their own certification examination or provide the option of taking the NREMT examination. To maintain certification, EMTs and paramedics must reregister, usually every 2 years. In order to reregister, an individual must be working as an EMT or paramedic and meet a continuing education requirement.

Training is offered at progressive levels: EMT-Basic, also known as EMT-1; EMT-Intermediate, or EMT-2 and EMT-3; and EMT-Paramedic, or EMT-4. EMT-Basic coursework typically emphasizes emergency skills, such as managing respiratory, trauma, and cardiac emergencies, and patient assessment. Formal courses are often combined with time in an emergency room or ambulance. The program also provides instruction and practice in dealing with bleeding, fractures, airway obstruction, cardiac arrest, and emergency childbirth. Students learn how to use and maintain common emergency equipment, such as backboards, suction devices, splints, oxygen delivery systems, and stretchers. Graduates of approved EMT basic training programs who pass a written and practical examination administered by the State certifying agency or the NREMT earn the title “Registered EMT-Basic.” The course also is a prerequisite for EMT-Intermediate and EMT-Paramedic training.

The basic emt course at my community college takes a year to complete, but schools will vary.

EMT-Intermediate training requirements vary from State to State. Applicants can opt to receive training in EMT-Shock Trauma, wherein the caregiver learns to start intravenous fluids and give certain medications, or in EMT-Cardiac, which includes learning heart rhythms and administering advanced medications. Training commonly includes 35 to 55 hours of additional instruction beyond EMT-Basic coursework, and covers patient assessment as well as the use of advanced airway devices and intravenous fluids. Prerequisites for taking the EMT-Intermediate examination include registration as an EMT-Basic, required classroom work, and a specified amount of clinical experience.

The most advanced level of training for this occupation is EMT-Paramedic. At this level, the caregiver receives additional training in body function and learns more advanced skills. The Technology program usually lasts up to 2 years and results in an associate degree in applied science. Such education prepares the graduate to take the NREMT examination and become certified as an EMT-Paramedic. Extensive related coursework and clinical and field experience is required. Because of the longer training requirement, almost all EMT-Paramedics are in paid positions, rather than being volunteers. Refresher courses and continuing education are available for EMTs and paramedics at all levels.

Skills needed?
EMTs and paramedics should be emotionally stable, have good dexterity, agility, and physical coordination, and be able to lift and carry heavy loads. They also need good eyesight (corrective lenses may be used) with accurate color vision.

So you see, oh gutless one, it takes quite a bit of study to become an EMT, something you have neither the intelligence, skills or the physical qualities neccessary to do EMT work.

Constitutionally Speaking
07-13-2008, 08:07 PM
I just dont see why you guys care about this.


Perhaps because we are against murdering innocent humans.

Carol
07-13-2008, 08:08 PM
According to the US Dept of Labor, this is the training/certification you need to be an EMT:

Formal training and certification is needed to become an EMT or paramedic. A high school diploma is typically required to enter a formal training program. Some programs offer an associate degree along with the formal EMT training. All 50 States have a certification procedure. In most States and the District of Columbia, registration with the NREMT is required at some or all levels of certification. Other States administer their own certification examination or provide the option of taking the NREMT examination. To maintain certification, EMTs and paramedics must reregister, usually every 2 years. In order to reregister, an individual must be working as an EMT or paramedic and meet a continuing education requirement..........Not to mention the four years of college to be a nurse. With the advent of all the life saving equipment and procedures nursing is an extremely technical job. It's not all bedpans and baths. I know....I'm a nurse and since I've worked as a nurse for over 20 years I've seen the changes.


Excuse me? I am not an "ambulance driver." I am an Emergency Medical Technician and an RN and if, God forbid, you or someone you loved ever had to call 911, you'd be damn glad to see me and would never insult me that way to my face. But then again, you just reinforce my opinion that you are lower than dirt on the evolutionary ladder with every word you type.Junebug, you never know. The way the leftists are I wouldn't put it past some of them to refuse care from a conservative (becasue they're all evil). Just like they refuse to see a doctor or dentist who is conservative.

biccat
07-13-2008, 09:44 PM
So you see, oh gutless one, it takes quite a bit of study to become an EMT, something you have neither the intelligence, skills or the physical qualities neccessary to do EMT work.
Did you manage to dig up the qualifications required to become a tenured professor at a prominent Chicago university?

Junebug68
07-13-2008, 09:54 PM
Junebug68 Please do not let Eyelids get to you. Sounds like he/she is just trying to bait you. You know you are correct on your position. Keep your head high!

Thanks! :D I'm off to Playa del Carmen tomorrow and I won't give him a second thought.

Thanks to you too Carol, nice to hear from a fellow nurse :)

Goldwater
07-13-2008, 09:57 PM
Abortion will never be illegal, not in any developed nation I doubt, but we should seek to put restrictions on it, especially the ones that allow late term abortions for no good reason.

asdf2231
07-14-2008, 01:59 AM
Thanks asdf2231 and x5060 :)

No problem Junebug.

He's just trying to be an assclown.

One of my best friends is a shift supervisor for the local EMT/Ambulance crew here and I work side by side with emergency personnel all the time so I know (As does anyone who isn't a pathetic Obamite troll) what it takes to do the job.

Sonnabend
07-14-2008, 07:34 AM
*looks up from legal textbook, one hand jotting notes*

Junebug, Carol..ladies, just letting you know that Eyelids is taking a short vacation, courtesy of the Sith admin and his loyal padawan (me :p ). He needs to learn respect..and he will.

Even if it means he gets shown the door....repeatedly. :D I suggested a high colonic. SR said something about danger money and HazMat suits...we'll let you know if we need you. :D

*flips page and sighs at the assignment on commercial law and contracts*

enslaved1
07-14-2008, 09:18 AM
No problem Junebug.

He's just trying to be an assclown.


He sure doesn't have to try very hard does he?

Goldwater, I hate to agree, but you are probably right. Like many issues, the proper route of attack needs to be the demand, not the supply. Teach people that abortion is an abhorrent procedure on a hundred different levels, and to think about the possible consequences of your actions BEFORE it becomes an issue.

linda22003
07-14-2008, 10:02 AM
I've read through the vitriol on this thread and the only post that makes sense is Goldwater's. That means, of course, that's the post with which I agree.

asdf2231
07-14-2008, 01:04 PM
*looks up from legal textbook, one hand jotting notes*

Junebug, Carol..ladies, just letting you know that Eyelids is taking a short vacation, courtesy of the Sith admin and his loyal padawan (me :p ). He needs to learn respect..and he will.

Even if it means he gets shown the door....repeatedly. :D I suggested a high colonic. SR said something about danger money and HazMat suits...we'll let you know if we need you. :D

*flips page and sighs at the assignment on commercial law and contracts*

Eyelids needs to change his playlist...
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l307/asdf2231/blog%20stuff%202/yoursign19.jpg

Cold Warrior
07-14-2008, 01:46 PM
I've read through the vitriol on this thread and the only post that makes sense is Goldwater's. That means, of course, that's the post with which I agree.

Given the thread's title, the excess of vitriol is of no surprise.

linda22003
07-14-2008, 03:07 PM
Yes, it started with melodrama right at the beginning. :rolleyes:

Rebel Yell
07-14-2008, 03:17 PM
Abortion will never be illegal, not in any developed nation I doubt, but we should seek to put restrictions on it, especially the ones that allow late term abortions for no good reason.

I think a fair compromise would be give the woman one chance. Call it "Everyone makes a mistake." Let her have her abortion, it's on her soul and that of the performing doctor. If she comes back for a second abortion, since we now know she knows where babies come from, she only gets the abortion if she also let's them tie her tubes while they are in their. This plan works great for welfare recepiants as well.

linda22003
07-14-2008, 03:29 PM
I think a fair compromise would be give the woman one chance. Call it "Everyone makes a mistake." Let her have her abortion, it's on her soul and that of the performing doctor. If she comes back for a second abortion, since we now know she knows where babies come from, she only gets the abortion if she also let's them tie her tubes while they are in their. This plan works great for welfare recepiants as well.

What about the illiterate? Should they be breeding? :p

Cold Warrior
07-14-2008, 03:38 PM
What about the illiterate? Should they be breeding? :p

What!! You don't think that's a good platform??? I think it's greyt. I think the Repubs should adopt it and most of all publicize it far and wide. They could call it the "Tie the bitch's tubes stand."

BTW, perhaps eliminating the illiterate ain't such a bad idear.

linda22003
07-14-2008, 03:39 PM
What!! You don't think that's a good platform??? I think it's greyt. I think the Repubs should adopt it and most of all publicize it far and wide. They could call it the "Tie the bitch's tubes stand."


So you can be pro-life, but everyone gets a freebie. Okay.

Rebel Yell
07-14-2008, 04:00 PM
What about the illiterate? Should they be breeding? :p

Spell check may be a good friend, but as long as I get the point across, I think i've done what I set out to do. I look at this as conversation, not an essay, but feel free to grade it anyway. I always know you're gonna point out any grammatical errors I make, I look forward to it.:D

linda22003
07-14-2008, 04:03 PM
You'll always keep me busy. :) I suppose your plan is better than that of those who think the time will come when the woman herself might be prosecuted for abortion.

Rebel Yell
07-14-2008, 04:09 PM
You'll always keep me busy. :) I suppose your plan is better than that of those who think the time will come when the woman herself might be prosecuted for abortion.

I blog the way I talk, sorry. Believe it for not, I actually come up with the marketing letters for this agency (I do use spell check for it). Anyway, I know this plan is not feasible, but it sure sounds good in theory, huh?

Voice of Reason
07-14-2008, 04:25 PM
Anyone who knows me know I am very pro-life, so threads like this just piss me off :mad:
Not me, despite the fact that I'm also very pro-life. The DUmmie is attempting to inject logic and reason into what tends to be a very emotionally-charged debate on both sides, and that's to be commended.

Besides, I've got a soft spot for anyone who actually understands the original meaning of the phrase "to beg the question."


BullGooseLoony (1000+ posts) Sat Jul-12-08 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #2
15. The great thing about a proper pro-choice argument is that it takes personhood into account.
Whether the fetus is a person or not, it doesn't have the right to use someone else's body to sustain itself against that person's will.

This argument is roughly analogous to the following. Suppose there is a person in your house, and you don't want him there. Perhaps he's an intruder, or perhaps he's an invited guest who's worn out his welcome. Outside is a howling blizzard, and it's certain that if you eject him from your house he will die. Do you have the right to eject him regardless?

The answer is that yes, you do. It may be immoral for you to do so, and you may be a horrible person if you do so, but it's your property and it's your right to decide who occupies it. The fact that the other person needs to make use of your property to survive does not impose any duty on you.

But the analogy fails in the case of abortion, because while you may have the right to eject most people from your house, this right does not apply when the other person is your child. You do have an affirmative duty to shelter, feed, and otherwise care for your children, and this duty is voluntarily assumed when you choose to become a parent. This can be extended to claiming that the duty is assumed when you voluntarily choose to engage in behavior for which pregnancy is a foreseeable consequence, i.e. sex. The law already recognizes this in the case of men, who are obligated to support children they father, even if they use birth control, even if they've been falsely assured that their partner is sterile.


Abortion is legal and its [sic] going to stay that way. Deal with it Ms. Ambulance Driver.

Can you tell me where you got your crystal ball? Mine is broken, and the shop is out of stock.


I just dont see why you guys care about this.

For the same reason that many Northerners cared about slavery. We see an entire class of people classified as subhuman under the law, without rights, and we believe that this is unjust and we want it to stop.


Junebug68 Please do not let Eyelids get to you. Sounds like he/she is just trying to bait you. You know you are correct on your position. Keep your head high!

Seems to be very good at baiting, that one. You might even call him a master baiter.


Abortion will never be illegal, not in any developed nation

Another person with a crystal ball! Was there a sale?

I wonder if people said the same thing about slavery. I know people said the same thing about segregation... and to this day people say the same thing about affirmative action.


but we should seek to put restrictions on it, especially the ones that allow late term abortions for no good reason.

What's a good reason? And since when do free people need to have "good reasons" to exercise their rights?


I think a fair compromise would be give the woman one chance. Call it "Everyone makes a mistake." Let her have her abortion, it's on her soul and that of the performing doctor. If she comes back for a second abortion, since we now know she knows where babies come from, she only gets the abortion if she also let's them tie her tubes while they are in their. This plan works great for welfare recepiants as well.

This makes no logical sense.

Either the fetus is a person or it isn't. If it is, then abortion is the moral equivalent of homicide. If it isn't, then abortion is the moral equivalent of a haircut. In neither case does restricting it to one per person make any sense at all. We don't give people one legal murder, nor do we limit people to one legal haircut.

Rebel Yell
07-14-2008, 04:44 PM
This makes no logical sense.

Either the fetus is a person or it isn't. If it is, then abortion is the moral equivalent of homicide. If it isn't, then abortion is the moral equivalent of a haircut. In neither case does restricting it to one per person make any sense at all. We don't give people one legal murder, nor do we limit people to one legal haircut.

That is more along the lines of my thoughts on welfare, as well as a high school diploma or GED. As far as abortion,in an almost perfect world (perfect would be NO abortion) this would be the next best thing. I know you understood that, though.

Goldwater
07-14-2008, 05:18 PM
Another person with a crystal ball! Was there a sale?

So is your face.


I've read through the vitriol on this thread and the only post that makes sense is Goldwater's. That means, of course, that's the post with which I agree.

I wuv you Linda numbers.

linda22003
07-14-2008, 05:22 PM
I wuv you Linda numbers.

Very welcome of course, but I wasn't just posting for wuv. I think that people may well believe that an embryo/fetus is a "person" at least a person in progress, but it's still not a "person" who is here, a person you can see. And besides, no matter how ambivalent they feel about abortion in general, they know they or their sister or daughter might need one someday, and they don't want the women they love to have to resort to a criminal act.

That thinking may be simplistic and incomplete, but I think it's as far as most people think about abortion. It's a philosophical concept until they need one - and everyone thinks the one justifiable abortion is one's own. :cool:

Zathras
07-14-2008, 05:30 PM
Did you manage to dig up the qualifications required to become a tenured professor at a prominent Chicago university?


Hmmm I searched and came up with the following qualifications...must be brainwashed in liberal ideology, be bamboosled by a local politician running for President with no qualifications for the job, be able to lie and twist facts to suit their needs no matter what and the ability to run away like a gutless coward when challenged....hey, Eyelids is quallified for the job.

Voice of Reason
07-14-2008, 05:53 PM
Very welcome of course, but I wasn't just posting for wuv. I think that people may well believe that an embryo/fetus is a "person" at least a person in progress, but it's still not a "person" who is here, a person you can see.

I can't see you at the moment, does that make you a nonperson? Can I hire somebody to kill you without any consequence to myself?

And you certainly can see a fetus... just use ultrasound.


And besides, no matter how ambivalent they feel about abortion in general, they know they or their sister or daughter might need one someday, and they don't want the women they love to have to resort to a criminal act.

It's a common fallacy to assume that one's own prejudices and predilections are universal. And very very few people "need" an abortion... and I for one would allow those who really do need one to get one. The duty to provide for one's children does not extend to the sacrifice of one's own life.


It's a philosophical concept until they need one - and everyone thinks the one justifiable abortion is one's own. :cool:

Wow, do you have a low opinion of humanity. Is your own hypocrisy so deeply-ingrained that you must believe that everyone else is as big a hypocrite?

MrsSmith
07-14-2008, 06:37 PM
Very welcome of course, but I wasn't just posting for wuv. I think that people may well believe that an embryo/fetus is a "person" at least a person in progress, but it's still not a "person" who is here, a person you can see. And besides, no matter how ambivalent they feel about abortion in general, they know they or their sister or daughter might need one someday, and they don't want the women they love to have to resort to a criminal act.

That thinking may be simplistic and incomplete, but I think it's as far as most people think about abortion. It's a philosophical concept until they need one - and everyone thinks the one justifiable abortion is one's own. :cool:

Actually, not everyone thinks the "one justifiable abortion" is their own. Many people know that no abortion is justified unless to save the mother's life, even their own. The only justification for killing an innocent human is if two lives will be lost otherwise. If Mom is unlikely to die, then killing Junior is murder at any age.

Zathras
07-14-2008, 09:46 PM
*looks up from legal textbook, one hand jotting notes*

Junebug, Carol..ladies, just letting you know that Eyelids is taking a short vacation, courtesy of the Sith admin and his loyal padawan (me :p ). He needs to learn respect..and he will.

Even if it means he gets shown the door....repeatedly. :D I suggested a high colonic. SR said something about danger money and HazMat suits...we'll let you know if we need you. :D

*flips page and sighs at the assignment on commercial law and contracts*

Is there a way to revoke his avatar and signature privliges as well, only returning on good behavior?

Sonnabend
07-15-2008, 07:16 AM
Is there a way to revoke his avatar and signature privliges as well, only returning on good behavior?

Ask the Sith Admin.

linda22003
07-15-2008, 08:30 AM
Wow, do you have a low opinion of humanity. Is your own hypocrisy so deeply-ingrained that you must believe that everyone else is as big a hypocrite?

I don't see it as hypocrisy; I see it as human nature. Not everyone can attain your state of moral perfection. I don't know if you're male or female; if you're male it makes it even easier for you, of course. :rolleyes:

Voice of Reason
07-15-2008, 10:56 AM
I don't see it as hypocrisy; I see it as human nature.

What you describe (opposing abortion except when oneself or one's family member needs one) is textbook hypocrisy, whether you see it as such or not. So in other words, you believe that humans are hypocritical by nature. Such misanthropy! No wonder you're all in favor of the legal killing of very young humans; you probably think they'll just grow up to be more hypocrites.


Not everyone can attain your state of moral perfection.

It takes far less than "moral perfection" to have principles... principles which don't take a backseat to self-interest. Do you really have none? Is there no moral precept you wouldn't abandon in the name of expediency? If so, how horrible... but I doubt that's true. I doubt you're such a rotten person as to have no principles. I have more faith in human nature than that.


I don't know if you're male or female; if you're male it makes it even easier for you, of course. :rolleyes:

Meanwhile, back in 1850, a slaveowner is telling an abolitionist "if you had a crop to get in, you'd want a slave, too."

And I notice you're silent on your ludicrous claim that the fetus isn't a person because we can't see it. Not surprising.

linda22003
07-15-2008, 11:09 AM
What you describe (opposing abortion except when oneself or one's family member needs one) is textbook hypocrisy, whether you see it as such or not. So in other words, you believe that humans are hypocritical by nature.

Oh! I can see why you would think so, if that had been in fact what I said. What I said was that most people were ambivalent about abortion. Naturally someone who "opposes" it should behave accordingly. The word I used is ambivalent, by which I meant when people are forced to think about it, they probably think it's "icky", and vastly prefer not to think about it at all. And that's what I think the major part of the electorate does.


It takes far less than "moral perfection" to have principles... principles which don't take a backseat to self-interest. Do you really have none? Is there no moral precept you wouldn't abandon in the name of expediency? If so, how horrible... but I doubt that's true. I doubt you're such a rotten person as to have no principles.

You are quite right. I am widely regarded as a Sweetheart, around here. ;)


And I notice you're silent on your ludicrous claim that the fetus isn't a person because we can't see it. Not surprising.

I also didn't say that. When you keep changing the wording of things, it makes little sense to kieep up the discussion.

Scarlet
07-15-2008, 01:40 PM
Erm... whats it take to be an EMT? 2 years at the community college taking gen ed classes?

Gas is on the right, brake is on the left and wheel in the middle... only the turn on the sirens for emergencies.


Do you know what it takes to become an RN? And what is it you do for a living?
________
SUZUKI VX800 (http://www.cyclechaos.com/wiki/Suzuki_VX800)

Zeus
07-15-2008, 04:54 PM
Stop Planned Parenthood Tax Funding (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLPYSa7EStY)

asdf2231
07-15-2008, 05:27 PM
Do you know what it takes to become an RN? And what is it you do for a living?


He's a COLLEGE STUDENT. :rolleyes:

Whose worthless liberal arts degree will no doubt get him a really bitching civil service job.

FlaGator
07-15-2008, 07:45 PM
He's a COLLEGE STUDENT. :rolleyes:

Whose worthless liberal arts degree will no doubt get him a really bitching civil service job.

Are you sure his not a high schooler?

Cold Warrior
07-15-2008, 07:47 PM
He's a COLLEGE STUDENT. :rolleyes:

Whose worthless liberal arts degree will no doubt get him a really bitching civil service job.

You mean like some of our more vocal members here?

Junebug68
07-20-2008, 09:13 AM
Yes, it started with melodrama right at the beginning. :rolleyes:

Sorry, that's just how I feel about abortion - it literally stops the beating heart of a human being, hence the baby killers title. :)

MrsSmith
07-21-2008, 10:48 PM
Sorry, that's just how I feel about abortion - it literally stops the beating heart of a human being, hence the baby killers title. :)

It's accurate. Every successful abortion kills at least one baby. There is no dancing around that can obscure that fact.

Junebug68
07-22-2008, 10:25 PM
It's accurate. Every successful abortion kills at least one baby. There is no dancing around that can obscure that fact.

Exactly, thanks for understanding.

biccat
07-22-2008, 11:19 PM
It's a philosophical concept until they need one - and everyone thinks the one justifiable abortion is one's own.
I wold think that everyone would claim that the only exception to the "right to abort" would be their own.

No sane person has ever seriously advocated that they should have been aborted.

linda22003
07-23-2008, 12:32 PM
Oh, I don't know. Obviously if we'd been aborted, we'd never know the difference. What I find all too cliche' is when pro-lifers make an exception to their principles, in order to wish someone with whom they disagree had been aborted. It's so predictable.

Cold Warrior
07-23-2008, 12:37 PM
Oh, I don't know. Obviously if we'd been aborted, we'd never know the difference. What I find all too cliche' is when pro-lifers make an exception to their principles, in order to wish someone with whom they disagree had been aborted. It's so predictable.

My gosh, I believe that's happened to me recently! :D

linda22003
07-23-2008, 12:39 PM
My gosh, I believe that's happened to me recently! :D

I wouldn't be at all surprised. It's a mindless fallback line.

Rebel Yell
07-23-2008, 12:42 PM
I wouldn't be at all surprised. It's a mindless fallback line.

It's called a figure of speech. "Well I'll be a monkey's uncle." I'm not a monkey's uncle, not even related to Obama on the white side.:D

Cold Warrior
07-23-2008, 03:39 PM
I wouldn't be at all surprised. It's a mindless fallback line.

Well, that certainly describes the poster!

MrsSmith
07-23-2008, 10:07 PM
Oh, I don't know. Obviously if we'd been aborted, we'd never know the difference. What I find all too cliche' is when pro-lifers make an exception to their principles, in order to wish someone with whom they disagree had been aborted. It's so predictable.

How do you know that you'd never know?

linda22003
07-24-2008, 08:13 AM
I don't remember anything from before my birth. Do you?

biccat
07-24-2008, 10:11 AM
I don't remember anything from before my birth. Do you?
I don't remember anything from before age 3, so does that make infanticide a tenable position?

linda22003
07-24-2008, 10:31 AM
I don't remember anything from before age 3, so does that make infanticide a tenable position?

That's not the question at hand. I was answering Mrs. Smith's question of "how do you know?"

biccat
07-24-2008, 12:19 PM
That's not the question at hand. I was answering Mrs. Smith's question of "how do you know?"
Yes, but if abortion doesn't matter because you don't remember anything before birth, doesn't that mean infanticide wouldn't matter because you don't remember anything before age 3?

FlaGator
07-24-2008, 04:09 PM
Yes, but if abortion doesn't matter because you don't remember anything before birth, doesn't that mean infanticide wouldn't matter because you don't remember anything before age 3?


Uh oh. That logic isn't very good for me because I don't remember much from before the age of 30... but then again alcohol was involved :D

MrsSmith
07-24-2008, 10:16 PM
I don't remember anything from before my birth. Do you?

And will I not, after I die?


You are assuming that because you don't currently remember something, you never will. As you have never died, you absolutely can't know. If Christian beliefs are correct, every aborted child will remember being torn limb from limb (or otherwise murdered) and will understand that this was not a miscarriage, with the Lord opening the door home, but rather Mommy's choice. Isn't that a comforting thought?

linda22003
07-25-2008, 07:49 AM
I don't recall being taught those specific 'Christian' beliefs.

movie buff
08-06-2008, 03:20 PM
So I'm a facist for wanted an innocent child to have a chance at life? :mad:


According to the DUmmies, yes. But, they sling around that insult at anyone who dares to disagree with them. Being called a fascist by brainless lefty freaks like them is like a badge of honor.

Theophilus
08-07-2008, 12:16 AM
I heard a good quote today. "Abortion is an Obama nation"

nightflight
08-07-2008, 01:41 AM
Erm... whats it take to be an EMT? 2 years at the community college taking gen ed classes?

Gas is on the right, brake is on the left and wheel in the middle... only the turn on the sirens for emergencies.


But if you ever need one I doubt you'll be spouting such inanities.

Or maybe you would.

Eyelids
08-07-2008, 02:39 AM
But if you ever need one I doubt you'll be spouting such inanities.

Or maybe you would.

I'd rather have a lifeguard give me CPR than a GED-educated EMT.

Eyelids
08-07-2008, 02:40 AM
If Christian beliefs are correct...

Luckily this isn't a determining factor in most policies.

Sonnabend
08-07-2008, 05:26 AM
I'd rather have a lifeguard give me CPR than a GED-educated EMT.

You LIKE being banned?

FlaGator
08-07-2008, 08:00 AM
Luckily this isn't a determining factor in most policies.

You might be surprised...

Junebug68
08-07-2008, 09:14 AM
I'd rather have a lifeguard give me CPR than a GED-educated EMT.

Here's something to think about asshat - how many times has a lifeguard done CPR versus an EMT? I'd want the more experienced one personally. I've actually lost count of how many times I've done CPR, how about you, since you seem to know everything? :rolleyes:

Junebug68
08-07-2008, 09:15 AM
But if you ever need one I doubt you'll be spouting such inanities.

Or maybe you would.

He would. He's just trying to bait me because he can't say anything remotely intelligent about the topic at hand.

Sonnabend
08-07-2008, 10:41 AM
Junebug: he wouldnt know a Jordan frame from a picture frame :D

Junebug68
08-07-2008, 11:43 AM
Junebug: he wouldnt know a Jordan frame from a picture frame :D

Bwahahahahahaha! :D

Zathras
08-07-2008, 01:19 PM
He would. He's just trying to bait me because he can't say anything remotely intelligent about ANY topic at hand.

Fixed....:D

Zathras
08-07-2008, 01:22 PM
I'd rather have a lifeguard give me CPR than a GED-educated EMT.

It's understandable. It's the only way someone like you could get an attractive person to put their lips on yours.

Theophilus
08-07-2008, 02:10 PM
I'd rather have a lifeguard give me CPR than a GED-educated EMT.I'd rather they both just stand over the top of you and watch you log off. ;)

Molon Labe
08-08-2008, 10:22 AM
And that's when we'll win, because dogma and the Bible is all the fascists have.

That and the first page of any biology book


Life begins when the sperm fertilizes the egg.

Liberals make things so complicated.