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View Full Version : Liar, Liar Well, Healthcare Pants on Fire



Carol
08-27-2009, 05:53 PM
link (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8614127)

This is long but Look at the contortions they go through to "prove" that with public health care you can keep your private insurance and will not end up on the public insurance. But they offer no direct proof of it.

Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Thu Aug-27-09 04:08 PM
Original message
"None of the healthcare bills guarantee that you can keep your employer based healthcare benefits"

- So it just isn't true that you can keep your employer provided health insurance plan if you like it. This article tells the truth -

Liar, Liar Well, Healthcare Pants on Fire
by Donna Smith
Donna Smith is a community organizer for the California Nurses Association and National Co-Chair for the Progressive Democrats of America Healthcare Not Warfare campaign.
August 27, 2009

So, we've been told over and over again that under the healthcare reform plans currently defended and pushed by the President and Congress that we can keep what we've got if we like it. No one will take your health insurance bennies away. Not under our employer-based, for-profit system.

Just how gullible are we when we trust that any private company will be forced to keep any benefit plan it chooses not to keep?

snip

If this big lie about healthcare reform rolls off their messaging engines like melting butter on a warm slice of bread, what else do you suppose they are lying about? Come on. Get real. We won't have what we want in terms of truly having the freedom to choose and keep or change our doctors, our providers and our own treatments until we break free from the lies and produce reform that guarantees a progressively financed, single high-quality standard of care for everybody. Everybody in, nobody out.

It's not just the right-wing selling myths in this discussion. We need to admit that and work to be as honest as we can. Too many lives depend on this. There will be no death panels to order Grandma's demise, but there are also no guarantees that you can keep what you have if you like it under this system. Both things are lies.

Please read the complete article at:

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/08/27-9

ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Aug-27-09 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #1
14. The bill doesn't force anyone into the public system

That is stated quite clearly in Title II Subtitle B Sec. 221 Established only as part of the Health Insurance Exchange.

The policies in the Health Insurance Exchange have to meet certain guidelines, and grandfathered in policies must conform to these guidelines after a certain date, at which times insurance companies that want to stay in the health insurance business must be a part of the Exchange.

OK, so the government will decide what kind of insurance the insurance company can offer, and what they cannot offer.
wryter2000 DU Moderator
Response to Reply #14
23. I know no one's forced into a public system

I still don't know how best to say what I want to say. :)

The problem with this article is that she seems to think that "you won't need to change" promises that the bill will make employers maintain their health insurance benefits they way they currently are. No one made any such promise. We only promised that this bill will do nothing to change employer-based health insurance.

Yes, the insurance companies will go into the list. The question of this column is...will your employer continue to supply your health insurance? As I understand it, the bill has nothing to say to that.

I don't think "Liar, Liar" is an honest title for her point, and I don't appreciate her tone. Does she want to leave things the way they are? Because that's what her column sounds like.But wait!! If the government is going to mandate what insurance companies can and cannot offer how can they "PROMISE that the bill will do nothing to change employer-based health insurance."

I suppose it depends on what the definition for the word is is. You can keep your private insurance but it will have to offer the same things as the public insurance.

global1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Aug-27-09 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. Your Exactly Right - Let's Say Health Reform Doesn't Pass......

an employer in order to save themselves money going forward under no health reform - may be forced to jettison their current plan for something cheaper. Hence - if you like what you have by your employer and your employer decides to change plans - you won't be keeping your current plan and will have to take whatever the employer offers. (ed. unless you decide to change jobs so you get what you want. Or you decide to pay for for the better plan the employer offers.- Unlike the public option which is only ONE choice and tough luck if you don't like it.)

There is a better chance that the employer will keep their current plan - if health reform passes and a public option is available. Why? Because the public plan is now in competition with the employers current health insurance offering. If that company that has the employers business wants to retain that business will either match the public option cost or be more competitive than the public option.

The public option is a must.

ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Aug-27-09 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #3
15. Employers will be more likely to keep their insurance if the bill passes

because it levies a surcharge on employers who choose not to offer insurance to their employeees. Here it is, right from the bill, (as summarized by me)

Division A Title III Subsection B Employer Responsibility

Sec. 313: Employer Contributions in Lieu of Coverage
A. 8% of average salary
B. Special rules for small employers-pay this amount instead of 8%:
Annual Payroll Percentage
>250K 0
250-300K 2
300-350K 4
350-400K 6Muslims call this Al-Takeyya. Justified lying. Or the ends justify the means.

shraby (1000+ posts) Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Aug-27-09 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. They can do either or neither. It's up to them. If they want,

the public option will be there. If they don't like what their employer is offering, they can find another health care plan from a different insurance company or go to the public option (hopefully single payer). That's the whole point. They would have a choice in what they can do.

ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Aug-27-09 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. I've read the bill

Edited on Thu Aug-27-09 04:47 PM by ayeshahaqqiqa
and from what I've seen, here's what would happen:

1. Your employer gives you health insurance, and then stops doing so. First thing that happens is that company must now pay a surcharge to the government for doing this--amount depends upon gross income of the company--anything from 0% (gross under 250K) to 8% of the annual salary of said employee (gross over 400K for company) See Title III Subtitle B Employer Responsibility Section 313.

The likelihood of the employer stopping insurance then, goes down the bigger the company is.

2. You go to the Health Insurance Exchange as an individual. As presented in the bill now, you can choose from among ANY plan in the pool--and after a certain number of years (3-5) ALL insurance companies who want to present basic plans to individuals have to join the pool in order to do so. And if you are worried about being able to afford the premiums, there will be Individual Affordability Credits--available to individuals and families whose employer doesn't offer insurance.

What has to be in the Basic plan is spelled out in the bill, as well as the fact that insurance companies must use 70% of the actuarial value of the policies on health care rather than fancy salaries for their CEOs. And there are enhanced and premium policies that insurance companies can opt to offer if they wish.

This is spelled out in Title II-Health Insurance Exchange and Related Provisions--whole Subtitle A worth reading.

The public option is under Subtitle B, and Section 221 states quite clearly that the Public Option is established as ONLY A PART of the Health Insurance Exchange.

Hope this information, with citations from the bill, is helpful.What a liar. Larger companies are more apt to give better insurance plans, hence they would be apt to save money by only paying 8%. How long have the libs been using that to justify single payer public health care? It would cost the employers less-just think if they didn't have to pay for health insurance.

Carol
08-27-2009, 05:54 PM
Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts)
17. How many employer insurance plans cost an employer more than 8% of annual salary?

This could be a very nice out for companies that currently pay a lot more than 8% of a workers salary for healthcare.

As the profit squeeze continues, I can see many employers opting out for that.

ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Aug-27-09 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. That could be

but at least we are arguing on the merits of what is actually stated in the bill instead of lies and distortions.ie. intended or unintended consequences do not matter and when pointed out are "lies and distortions".mohc (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Aug-27-09 04:15 PM
Response to Original message
5. The implication is the government will not make you change your plan.

With or without health care reform, employers are going to be able to change what plans they offer. And outside the exchange, insurance companies will be able to change the plans they offer to employers as they do now. The reason people are saying that "you can keep your plan if you like it", is because there are plenty of other people saying that the government is going to force you onto a new plan. I see nothing deceptive with stating it as "you can keep your plan". Maybe stating "the government will not make you change your plan" would be more precise, but stating it in the negative never conveys the message as clearly as stating it in the affirmative.Deceptiveness is OK!!

ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member
18. There is a whole section about grandfathering in current plans

Division A Subtitle A
Section 102-Protecting the Choice To Keep Current Coverage
A. Grandfathered Insurance Coverage = individual health coverage in force before enactment of this law-only dependents can be added to coverage after enactment, and terms of policy cannot change. % change in costs cannot be made for an individual, but must be made for entire risk group
debbierlus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Aug-27-09 04:18 PM
Response to Original message
6. Good God...Unrecommends for what?


Pathetic.For not doing a good enough job of lying??