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Carol
09-07-2009, 09:48 PM
link (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6486430)


Are_grits_groceries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Mon Sep-07-09 05:22 PM
Original message
Ky. school trip included baptisms

LOUISVILLE A mother is angry about a trip led by the head football coach at Breckinridge County High School. The coach took about 20 players on a school bus late last month to his church, where nearly half of them including her son were baptized.

Michelle Ammons said her 16-year-old son was baptized without her knowledge and consent, and she is upset that a public school bus was used to take players to a church service and that the school district's superintendent was there and did not object.

"Nobody should push their faith on anybody else," said Ammons, whose son, Robert Coffey, said Coach Scott Mooney told him and other players that the Aug. 26 outing would include only a motivational speaker and a free steak dinner.

"He said it would bring the team together," Robert, a sophomore, said in an interview.
<snip>
But Superintendent Janet Meeks, who is a member of the church and witnessed the baptisms, said she thinks the trip was proper because attendance was not required, and another coach paid for the gas.

Meeks said parents weren't given permission slips to sign but knew the event would include a church service, if not specifically a baptism. She said eight or nine players came forward and were baptized.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-09-07-kentucky...

And people are worried about Obama giving a speech??? Jeebus!
Was this proper? No probably not. But I have to laugh because they would all be cheering on the coach and superintendent if the bus took a group of 14 year old girls to have an abortion.

Parental notification for an abortion-not needed-child with non parental help (or no help) can make that decision.
Parental notification to be baptized-needed-child cannot be trusted to make that decision by him or herself.

Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Mon Sep-07-09 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
2. Oh man I would sue the fucking pants off that school!! nt

Pangolin2 (295 posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Mon Sep-07-09 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
3. Half baptized and half ...sodomized?

It's not all that far-fetched...
Some on the left demonize all religion and faith because of the Catholic Priest thing. They won't ever say though that it was HOMOSEXUAL PREDATORS who committed the crime. Doesn't matter if they were priests or atheists-those who sexually abuse boys are homosexual predators.

Greenpeach Donating Member (201 posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Mon Sep-07-09 05:32 PM
Response to Original message
8. This cannot be legal!

But will anybody do anything about it? She was "upset", only upset? I would've been beyond outraged. They get by with this stuff all the time, yet we have to acknowledge their objections to the President's speech to our kids?
barbtries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Mon Sep-07-09 06:20 PM
Response to Original message
16. i hope she contacted the ACLU

unconscionable. wow. how dare they.
MadMaddie (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Mon Sep-07-09 08:17 PM
Response to Original message
21. Soooooooo these kids can be indoctrinated to the coaches

faith without a parents permission. Gosh....and I am betting the coach and the Superintendant are going to keep their kids from watching President Obama's speech.

Wow! Apples to oranges. K-6th grade-16 year olds.

noonwitch
09-08-2009, 08:41 AM
8 or 9 players came forward to be baptized. Obviously, the complainer's son was one of those.

The coach was wrong if he made attendance mandatory. It sounds perfectly clear that the boy voluntarily came forward to be baptized, though.

I had a lot of arguments with my mom as a teen over religion. I was involved in Young Life, she was a liberal UCC member, and she didn't like my attending. She never let me attend church with my YL friends who went to evangelical or conservative churches. If I had gone to one and gotten baptized in that tradition, she would have been furious. The only reason she ended up allowing me any YL participation was because my dad put his foot down and told her to back off.

If the kid is in a situation like mine was, he may be willingly participating in religious activities with friends from school and his coach because it is his genuine faith at this point. If that is the case, then the coach shouldn't be punished, and maybe the kid's parents need some counseling to address how to deal with a 16 year old who chooses religion as an outlet over the numerous other negative choices he could be making right now.

MrsSmith
09-08-2009, 09:52 AM
How horrible it would be if the kid grew up to never abuse drugs, never support a shrink, able to get a job and support his family...no wonder the mother was upset. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

linda22003
09-08-2009, 09:59 AM
Wow, baptism itself is amazing if it can do all that.
So, Mrs. Smith, you'd have no problem if your minor decided (or possibly felt pressured by a coach) to do the same? If you're Catholic you wouldn't care if he suddenly did a Baptist baptism, or if you were Baptist you wouldn't care if he suddenly, with no notice, went over to Rome?

megimoo
09-08-2009, 10:06 AM
Where's the ACLU? Where is the NEA ?Where are the voices of Islam denouncing this blatant violation of the separation of church and state ?

Why haven't heard from NAMBLA demanding to be included in the trip ?

MrsSmith
09-08-2009, 10:14 AM
Wow, baptism itself is amazing if it can do all that.
So, Mrs. Smith, you'd have no problem if your minor decided (or possibly felt pressured by a coach) to do the same? If you're Catholic you wouldn't care if he suddenly did a Baptist baptism, or if you were Baptist you wouldn't care if he suddenly, with no notice, went over to Rome?

By the time he's 16? Absolutely the least of my worries about any of my 16 years olds has been the "horrible" possibility he or she might be baptised into a mainstream church. :rolleyes:

And, no, baptism does not do that...but the presence of the Holy Spirit certainly can. So if this was a real baptism, it was a good thing. If it wasn't, then it won't stick anyway.

linda22003
09-08-2009, 10:37 AM
Okay. I was asking. My parents had me baptized as an infant, and I changed to something else later, but it didn't involve another baptism and I was considerably older (27).

MrsSmith
09-08-2009, 10:49 AM
Okay. I was asking. My parents had me baptized as an infant, and I changed to something else later, but it didn't involve another baptism and I was considerably older (27).

With my 16 year old boys, I was worried about girls, pregnancies, STD's, drug use, auto wrecks, and making them stay in school. With my girls, it was boys, pregnancies, STD's, drug use, shoplifting makeup, and making them stay in school. Having any of the 4 join any mainstream church would have been cause for a major celebration.

linda22003
09-08-2009, 11:06 AM
This surprises me, somehow. In your posts, you strike me as a religious person; none of your children followed the example? I'm sorry.

jinxmchue
09-08-2009, 11:09 AM
Doing drugs at 16? No problem!

Having sex at 16? Big deal!

Getting an abortion at 16? So what!

Getting baptized at 16? NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!

All in a day's work at the DUmp.

MrsSmith
09-08-2009, 11:26 AM
This surprises me, somehow. In your posts, you strike me as a religious person; none of your children followed the example? I'm sorry.

I became a Christian when I met Mr Smith, about 8 years ago. My 3 oldest children (now ages 31 to 24) were never even exposed to it, in any meaningful way. The 4th child attended a private Christian school only because the public school wanted to put her on Ritalin, while I was convinced that her main problem was depression from her father's death, not ADD. While I had no objection to the Christian lessons she learned, I also did not support them or take her to church. She has been baptised (at the same time I was, when she was 12), but is not currently living a Christian life.

My 5th child has now been raised in a Christian home for 8 years - since she was 4, so I sincerely hope she won't do the things her older siblings did.

Given all that, though, I still have no understanding of a parent that would be angry about a child's choice to be baptised. :confused:

linda22003
09-08-2009, 11:49 AM
Given all that, though, I still have no understanding of a parent that would be angry about a child's choice to be baptised. :confused:

Thanks for the explanation, although you didn't owe me one. :) I think most parents would expect that to be their decision, and in any case wouldn't expect it in conjunction with a school trip!

enslaved1
09-08-2009, 12:06 PM
Hey, lurkers, did you all lay out the same outrage at Islam roleplaying class in California? If not, you have not a leg to stand on.

Gingersnap
09-08-2009, 12:18 PM
Thanks for the explanation, although you didn't owe me one. :) I think most parents would expect that to be their decision, and in any case wouldn't expect it in conjunction with a school trip!

Well, it wasn't a school trip although school coaches were involved.

This kind of thing was pretty common where I grew up. Basically, if your folks were religious people who attended church regularly, you were immune from proselytizing. I've sat through dozens or maybe hundreds of revivals, altar calls, baptisms, and the like and I never felt the need to renounce my own church and join somebody else's.

The kids who were interested in joining were kids whose parents didn't attend church at all and who came from families that might have been a little on the chaotic side. Having a "church family" can make up for some of the problems that are generated by real families.

That said, if Mom isn't a believer then she shouldn't worry too much about about some kind of sky god ritual which she considers bogus to begin with. If she is a believer and managed to keep this lifestyle completely shrouded in mystery for 16 years, she got what she deserved. :D

linda22003
09-08-2009, 12:26 PM
So parents don't have the right to raise kids outside a church environment? :confused:

The USA Today story says that kids were told they would be taken to a "revival". If I'd been a mother who heard that, I would not have allowed my child to attend, and that might have been an issue for the kid, since the coach was selling it as a team "bonding" experience.

noonwitch
09-08-2009, 03:43 PM
So parents don't have the right to raise kids outside a church environment? :confused:

The USA Today story says that kids were told they would be taken to a "revival". If I'd been a mother who heard that, I would not have allowed my child to attend, and that might have been an issue for the kid, since the coach was selling it as a team "bonding" experience.


Sure they do, but reasonable parents of 16 year olds need to carefully choose the battles they are going to have with their teenagers. Battles over a teenager's choice of religious beliefs are unwinnable from the parents' side-the kid knows that they are not engaging in dangerous behavior-like drinking, drugging or promiscuous sex.

Also, the kid can take a moral high ground, to a certain degree, if the religious activities are keeping him out of trouble. This can take on an annoying dimension if the parent has a live together partner or is otherwise engaged in activities that the Bible would call sinful. The parent's continued attempts to change the kid's beliefs are only going to push the kid further into the beliefs.

When my mom and I were battling this out, she threatened to make me go to therapy over it. I asked her "Where are you going to send me? Pine Rest Christian Hospital?". In Grand Rapids, the likely therapists would have all been on my side, or at least that's what I was able to manipulate her into thinking. I was always told by the YL people that if my mom told me I couldn't go, they had to go along with her, because she was my parent. The leader pointed out to me that I had two parents, however, and I chose to play the dad card, successfully.

Gingersnap
09-08-2009, 05:14 PM
So parents don't have the right to raise kids outside a church environment? :confused:

The USA Today story says that kids were told they would be taken to a "revival". If I'd been a mother who heard that, I would not have allowed my child to attend, and that might have been an issue for the kid, since the coach was selling it as a team "bonding" experience.

Parents absolutely have the right to raise kids outside of a religious environment. However, parents who do that should be prepared if their kid finds a religious connection and pursues it. Religious parents, by and large, either produce agnostics or fellow believers (even if the kid eventually likes a different "flavor" better). They are prepped to a certain degree to counter their kids' flirtation with atheism or agnosticism. Non-religious parents have fewer arguments to marshal.

What? You'll be sorry if you don't do drugs, drink, and sleep around at 16. The horror!

Everybody knows (or should know) that all revivals entail an impassioned sermon, witnessing that likely touches on behavior that most people feel conflicted about, and an altar call. The baptism should be the least of this lady's worries. The altar call itself is the real deal-sealer. ;)

linda22003
09-08-2009, 07:00 PM
Ah, but was it an altar call or a Coach Call? Football season is just beginning, after all.

Gingersnap
09-08-2009, 09:00 PM
Ah, but was it an altar call or a Coach Call? Football season is just beginning, after all.

It was a revival. Neither option was predetermined: not the team spirit thing nor the call of God thing.