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View Full Version : For those of you who don't believe that the gov't could perpetrate 9/11.....



stsinner
09-20-2009, 02:11 PM
Well, aside from the twin towers being the first steel structures in the history of the world to be brought down by fire (oh, and World Trade Center 7), and the fact that there were not wing or engine marks on the Pentagon, and the fact that no plane pieces or bodies or human DNA was found in Shanksville, PA, check this out:

Operation Northwoods (http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/northwoods.html)

That's right!-the American government in 1962 drew up and approved plans to commit acts of terror on innocent American citizens in order to trick the American public into supporting attacking Cuba. That's right... In order to stamp out Communism in Cuba, our own Joint Chiefs of Staff were willing to kill innocent American citizens.. So for those of you who think it's so far-fetched to think that the perfect precision topplings of the Twin Towers could have been orchestrated by our government, you need to brush up on your history... And this isn't the only example of this disgusting behavior by our own government..

Excerpt:

Code named Operation Northwoods, the plan, which had the written approval of the Chairman and every member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, called for innocent people to be shot on American streets; for boats carrying refugees fleeing Cuba to be sunk on the high seas; for a wave of violent terrorism to be launched in Washington, D.C., Miami, and elsewhere. People would be framed for bombings they did not commit; planes would be hijacked. Using phony evidence, all of it would be blamed on Castro, thus giving Lemnitzer and his cabal the excuse, as well as the public and international backing, they needed to launch their war.

BSR
09-20-2009, 02:38 PM
please tell me you're not a truther... :rolleyes:

Rockntractor
09-20-2009, 03:13 PM
Stsinner put down the mouse and walk away, we like you!

djones520
09-20-2009, 03:23 PM
Color me not surprised. The Stormfronter is a truther.

linda22003
09-20-2009, 03:25 PM
"No wing or engine marks on the Pentagon". :mad: Just when I start to think Stsinner might be a little bit normal, he confirms my suspicions that he's not after all.

stsinner
09-20-2009, 03:30 PM
Color me not surprised. The Stormfronter is a truther.

Go fuck yourself, you piece of shit.

djones520
09-20-2009, 03:32 PM
Go fuck yourself, you piece of shit.

:rolleyes:

Your accusing the US Military of being complicit in the death of thousands of US Citizens, and I'm the peice of shit. Right...

stsinner
09-20-2009, 03:40 PM
"No wing or engine marks on the Pentagon". :mad: Just when I start to think Stsinner might be a little bit normal, he confirms my suspicions that he's not after all.

Care to explain this comment, Linda? Why did this one, in particular, bother you?

This is what I was referring to:


http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m247/brassmonkey71/PentagonDamage.jpg


if you had been objective, as we call on the Liberals to be, and watched the movie Loose Change, which chronicles all the problems with the story of 9/11, starting with the fact that jet fuel cannot burn hot enough or long enough to melt steel, you would have seen this very picture.. It's a screen shot from the movie, which says that the engines, which weighed over 6 tones each, didn't even break the windows in the area where they would have hit.. And the composite nose of the 'plane' blew a 16' diamether hole though 9 feet of steel-reinforced concrete blowing all the way through the explosion proofed sections of the Pentagon to reach the C-ring.. Another first for history..


Sorry, rockntracktor, I live a pretty fact-based life, and I would just at least like some answers to the questions, rather than just labels and name calling.. We jump on the DUmmies when they do it, but then some here won't even entertain questions without jumping on someone..

Zathras
09-20-2009, 03:40 PM
:rolleyes:

Your accusing the US Military of being complicit in the death of thousands of US Citizens, and I'm the peice of shit. Right...

Looks like stshitter is in the same category as every other troll that has visited CU in the past...delusional and stupid.

stsinner
09-20-2009, 03:44 PM
:rolleyes:

Your accusing the US Military of being complicit in the death of thousands of US Citizens, and I'm the peice of shit. Right...

I'm not accusing anybody, you stupid bastard. I have yet to place blame. I'm simply saying that there are questions.. If the questions are so easily explained, then have a crack at it genius.. People much smarter than you, I would assume by all the letters after their names, are asking the questions. let me know if you're up to it-I'll throw you a couple softball questions and see how you do..



How about the Operation Northwoods info I posted.. I guess that's all made up, too, right?

stsinner
09-20-2009, 03:48 PM
Looks like stshitter is in the same category as every other troll that has visited CU in the past...delusional and stupid.

stshitter...that's cute.. Anything intelligent to offer about Operation Northwoods?

Teetop
09-20-2009, 03:52 PM
Well, aside from the twin towers being the first steel structures in the history of the world to be brought down by fire (oh, and World Trade Center 7), and the fact that there were not wing or engine marks on the Pentagon, and the fact that no plane pieces or bodies or human DNA was found in Shanksville, PA, check this out:

Operation Northwoods (http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/northwoods.html)

That's right!-the American government in 1962 drew up and approved plans to commit acts of terror on innocent American citizens in order to trick the American public into supporting attacking Cuba. That's right... In order to stamp out Communism in Cuba, our own Joint Chiefs of Staff were willing to kill innocent American citizens.. So for those of you who think it's so far-fetched to think that the perfect precision topplings of the Twin Towers could have been orchestrated by our government, you need to brush up on your history... And this isn't the only example of this disgusting behavior by our own government..

Excerpt:

Code named Operation Northwoods, the plan, which had the written approval of the Chairman and every member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, called for innocent people to be shot on American streets; for boats carrying refugees fleeing Cuba to be sunk on the high seas; for a wave of violent terrorism to be launched in Washington, D.C., Miami, and elsewhere. People would be framed for bombings they did not commit; planes would be hijacked. Using phony evidence, all of it would be blamed on Castro, thus giving Lemnitzer and his cabal the excuse, as well as the public and international backing, they needed to launch their war.

:rolleyes: Operation DUmb-ass, read this, since you like to link to WRH. (http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/ppfinal.html)

My work is done, time to go help my friend work on a barn roof and drink some cold beer.

stsinner
09-20-2009, 03:52 PM
The point of the thread was to demonstrate that it's not unprecedented for the American government to plot something like this to further its agenda.. I was shocked to read about Operation Northwoods.. It's scary to think that your own government would kill you to justify attacking another country...

And to be clear, I really liked President Bush and still do.. Hell, I'm a Conservative! You think I want to dig for dirt on Republicans? Hell no!

Ree
09-20-2009, 04:00 PM
Well, aside from the twin towers being the first steel structures in the history of the world to be brought down by fire (oh, and World Trade Center 7), and the fact that there were not wing or engine marks on the Pentagon, and the fact that no plane pieces or bodies or human DNA was found in Shanksville, PA, check this out:
snip
WTF are ya smokin?

stsinner
09-20-2009, 04:02 PM
:rolleyes: Operation DUmb-ass, read this, since you like to link to WRH. (http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/ppfinal.html)

My work is done, time to go help my friend work on a barn roof and drink some cold beer.

That's actually some good information.. I'm not being hard-headed about 9/11-I'd actually appreciate getting answers to my questions so that I know exactly how certain things could have happened.. I totally separate actors and motive in my assessment and just look at things from a scientific aspect. Being a mechanical engineer, I am simply looking at things like the temperature of burning jet fuel, weights of engines, etc., not trying to assess blame or say that President Bush was complicit.. I should have never watched Loose Change and just left well-enough alone.. I in no way ever want to believe or accuse a Republican administration of anything, and I didn't even get that far in my analysis.. I'm just looking at things like the fact that the Twin Towers were engineered to withstand plane strikes. I just find it amazingly odd that both towers should fall as they did, not one fall and one remain standing.. The odds are just so spectacular...

This page that you provided has some good information.. The pod people crap was pretty whacky, though.. I don't see a pod on the plan, no matter how I view the pictures.

Zathras
09-20-2009, 04:11 PM
stshitter...that's cute.. Anything intelligent to offer about Operation Northwoods?

Didn't happen, was stopped by the Kennedy administration, non issue. You do realise that the JCS have all kinds of contingency plans, even dealing with current allies, for war.

You might want to use other websites for your info than the lunatic fringe ones you linked.

Teetop
09-20-2009, 04:13 PM
Aircraft wreckage in PA. (http://images.google.com/images?q=aircraft%20wreckage%20at%20shanksville%2C %20PA&hl=en&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi)

DNA at PA crash site. (http://www.historycommons.org/entity.jsp?entity=armed_forces_dna_identification_ laboratory_1)


September 13-December 19, 2001: Investigators Work to Identify Flight 93 Victims
Edit event

Human remains from the Flight 93 crash site are moved to a temporary morgue that has been set up at the Pennsylvania National Guard Armory, several miles away in Friedens. High-tech mortuary equipment has been brought to the armory in a tractor-trailer. [Pennsylvania Emergency Management Agency, 9/12/2001 pdf file; WTAE-TV, 9/13/2001] 75 to 100 specialists, including pathologists and fingerprint experts, are involved in the attempt to identify the remains. Forensic anthropologist Dennis Dirkmaat says that because the remains have suffered “extreme fragmentation,” most will need to be identified using DNA analysis. [Washington Post, 9/14/2001] When remains cannot be identified at the temporary morgue, samples are sent on to the Armed Forces DNA Identification Laboratory in Rockville, Maryland, where samples from the Pentagon crash are also being analyzed (see September 11-November 16, 2001). [Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, 9/25/2001; Stars and Stripes, 10/8/2001; KCRA, 12/20/2001] By December 19, the remains of all 40 passengers and crew from Flight 93 have been identified, using fingerprints, dental records, and DNA. Investigators have, by a process of elimination, also been able to isolate genetic profiles of the four hijackers. [Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, 12/30/2001; DMORT National News, 1/2002; Associated Press, 2/26/2002; Stripe, 9/20/2002] Searchers recovered about 510 pounds of human remains at the crash scene, equaling about eight percent of the total bodyweight on the plane. According to Somerset County Coroner Wallace Miller, everything else was vaporized. [Washington Post, 5/12/2002; Age (Melbourne), 9/9/2002; Canadian Press, 3/28/2004]

Entity Tags: Wallace Miller, Dennis Dirkmaat, Pennsylvania National Guard Armory, Armed Forces DNA Identification Laboratory

Timeline Tags: Complete 911 Timeline, 9/11 Timeline

:rolleyes:

Gotta go for real now, later all.

Put the bong down, stshitter.

Constitutionally Speaking
09-20-2009, 04:16 PM
The point of the thread was to demonstrate that it's not unprecedented for the American government to plot something like this to further its agenda.. I was shocked to read about Operation Northwoods.. It's scary to think that your own government would kill you to justify attacking another country...

And to be clear, I really liked President Bush and still do.. Hell, I'm a Conservative! You think I want to dig for dirt on Republicans? Hell no!


Northwoods was planned under a Democrat.

Zathras
09-20-2009, 04:22 PM
I'm just looking at things like the fact that the Twin Towers were engineered to withstand plane strikes. I just find it amazingly odd that both towers should fall as they did, not one fall and one remain standing.. The odds are just so spectacular.

I don't think they were designed to survive an impact by an aircraft bigger than the 707, moving at near top speed with a full fuel load. IIRC the WTC was designed for the skin of the building and central core to support the weight of the floors. Once that was compromised, plus the fire weakening the floor supports that remained, it was only a matter of time before the towers came down. Hell, I'm surprised they stayed up as long as they did.

stsinner
09-20-2009, 04:31 PM
Didn't happen, was stopped by the Kennedy administration, non issue. You do realise that the JCS have all kinds of contingency plans, even dealing with current allies, for war.

You might want to use other websites for your info than the lunatic fringe ones you linked top. You won't come off like a fool that way.

I know it sounds crazy.. . That's why I hesitate to even bring it up, but I'm not trying to be some conspiracy theorist.. Let me say this-a good friend and coworker of mine, Bob Hayes (http://www.9-11heroes.us/v/Robert_Hayes.php), was on Flight 11.. He was 37 with a lovely wife and children, and he had just bought his dream home.. Plus, I'm a Republican or Conservative or Libertarian, whoever is running that fits my bill is how I vote, so I in no way want to be associated with some crap like this or to tarnish myself, you guys or the party...

Is there anything not factual about the web page I linked to? I'm asking seriously, because I don't know... I don't know the reputation of the website. I just looked it up after heard about it on Alex Jones' show. The documents look real.. And if so, it's not too much different than what the "truthers" claim happened on 9/11, is it..

My only problems are these, and I'm in the middle-believe me on that.. I don't ever want to believe that a Republican administration would do something like that and I'm not trying to say that, number 1. Secondly, if it wasn't a plane that hit the Pentagon, as Loose Change asserts, then were are the people and the plane? I don't believe for a second that the American government would kill a plane load of people or somehow put them in some fantastic witness protection program of sorts... But the lack of engine holes on the Pentagon bugs me, and strictly from a mechanical engineer point of view-nothing political.. How could six tons of steel, aluminum and titanium hit the Pentagon and not destroy the wall when the composite nose and aluminum airframe penetrated 9 feet of steel reinforced concrete?

As I said-the fact that both towers fell so perfectly bugs me when it's the first time in history a steel framed building was brought down by fire and a fire that burned for such a short time, fueled by a substance whose sustained fire temperature isn't capable of melting steel... Also, why did WTC 7 collapse if it just had exposure fire from the Twin Towers? They can't blame weakened structure from plane impact as has been attributed to the Twin Towers collapsing. What building in history, the quality of build of WTC 7, has burned for a very short time and collapsed?

One thing I try to do is to never assume I know everything about anything, and if someone wants to tell me something or show me something, I'll watch or listen and come to my own conclusions.. When a metallurgist tells me that jet fuel cannot burn hot enough to melt steel and that the steel in the Twin Towers was specifically designed to ASTM E119, I have to think about that.. The time temperature curves for this standard require the samples to be exposed to temperatures around 2000F for several hours.

Regarding the contingency plans, i don't doubt that.. I'm sure some of them would horrify the American people..

BSR
09-20-2009, 05:04 PM
I'm not accusing anybody, you stupid bastard. I have yet to place blame. I'm simply saying that there are questions.. If the questions are so easily explained, then have a crack at it genius.. People much smarter than you, I would assume by all the letters after their names, are asking the questions. let me know if you're up to it-I'll throw you a couple softball questions and see how you do..



How about the Operation Northwoods info I posted.. I guess that's all made up, too, right?

There is no question, asshole... choke on a dick and die you fucking racist truther...

linda22003
09-20-2009, 05:38 PM
Care to explain this comment, Linda? Why did this one, in particular, bother you?



As I've posted here before, a friend of mine was the head of reference at the Pentagon library at the time, and did an article for a professional publication on the ultimate in disaster recovery - what it's like to have a landing gear in your reference section. Those who WERE NOT THERE and who insist there was never any plane particularly infuriate me, because I know those who were, and because I knew a few people in our neighborhood who went to the Pentagon on our commuter bus that morning and did not come home that night.

People who make up stories sprinkled with fairy dust about the deaths of people I knew get my particular contempt.

stsinner
09-20-2009, 05:50 PM
There is no question, asshole... choke on a dick and die you fucking racist truther...

Your intellect is astounding.

AlmostThere
09-20-2009, 05:51 PM
I don't think they were designed to survive an impact by an aircraft bigger than the 707, moving at near top speed with a full fuel load. IIRC the WTC was designed for the skin of the building and central core to support the weight of the floors. Once that was compromised, plus the fire weakening the floor supports that remained, it was only a matter of time before the towers came down. Hell, I'm surprised they stayed up as long as they did.

Correct, and the empty weight on an average 767 is about 25 tons more than the empty weight of an average 707.

BSR
09-20-2009, 05:57 PM
Your intellect is astounding.

so is yours, dipshit...

http://www.conservativeunderground.com/forum505/showpost.php?p=189293&postcount=1


oh and this...


http://www.conservativeunderground.com/forum505/showpost.php?p=189313&postcount=6

stsinner
09-20-2009, 06:01 PM
As I've posted here before, a friend of mine was the head of reference at the Pentagon library at the time, and did an article for a professional publication on the ultimate in disaster recovery - what it's like to have a landing gear in your reference section. Those who WERE NOT THERE and who insist there was never any plane particularly infuriate me, because I know those who were, and because I knew a few people in our neighborhood who went to the Pentagon on our commuter bus that morning and did not come home that night.

People who make up stories sprinkled with fairy dust about the deaths of people I knew get my particular contempt.

Linda, I meant no disrespect to any of the people who perished on 9/11. I was simply asking fact-based questions, not conspiracy-based questions or sprinkling pixie dust.. I was parroting questions I heard elsewhere, which, in hindsight, was probably not the best idea..

But the issue seems too contentious, and it wasn't my intention to piss people off, so I'll back away.. I apologize if I rubbed you the wrong way, Linda..

asdf2231
09-20-2009, 08:43 PM
Linda, I meant no disrespect to any of the people who perished on 9/11. I was simply asking fact-based questions, not conspiracy-based questions or sprinkling pixie dust.. I was parroting questions I heard elsewhere, which, in hindsight, was probably not the best idea..

But the issue seems too contentious, and it wasn't my intention to piss people off, so I'll back away.. I apologize if I rubbed you the wrong way, Linda..

Not just her. Tread veeeery lightly with the truther garbage.

linda22003
09-20-2009, 09:10 PM
Not just her. Tread veeeery lightly with the truther garbage.

Aaaaand with that, I think we can call an end to this thread.

Rockntractor
09-20-2009, 09:15 PM
Lock it!

Shannon
09-20-2009, 09:18 PM
Lock it!

Why? I find it amusing.

Jfor
09-20-2009, 09:19 PM
Dude... you quoted Loose Change as something that should be taken seriously. I know I am getting to this way too late but damn... Popular Mechanics debunked everything Loose Change idiots had to say.

Teetop
09-20-2009, 09:19 PM
Why? I find it amusing.

Especially after I gave stshitter URL's to debunk his delusions.:rolleyes:

djones520
09-20-2009, 09:23 PM
I'm not accusing anybody, you stupid bastard. I have yet to place blame. I'm simply saying that there are questions.. If the questions are so easily explained, then have a crack at it genius.. People much smarter than you, I would assume by all the letters after their names, are asking the questions. let me know if you're up to it-I'll throw you a couple softball questions and see how you do..



How about the Operation Northwoods info I posted.. I guess that's all made up, too, right?

Bullshit. It's impossible for this to have been anything like this without the US Military being involved. Eye witnesses at the Pentagon who saw aircraft wreckage in their office had to have been told what they saw. Personnel at the RAPCON had to have made up the fact that they where tracking these aircraft that you say didn't exist. The hardware required to have pulled something like this off would have had to have come from the military. The CIA, Blackwater, Halliburton, whatever the hell you'd like to accuse it on does not have the means to do what was done.

So yes asshole. You accuse this of being anything other then what EVERYONE WHOSE NOT A DUMB FUCKING PIECE OF SHIT KNOWS IT WAS, AND YOUR ACCUSING THE US MILITARY OF BEING RESPONSIBLE.

Rockntractor
09-20-2009, 09:24 PM
Why? I find it amusing.

http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv230/upyourstruly/train-wreck.jpg?t=1253496219

PoliCon
09-20-2009, 09:30 PM
I am very VERY disappointed. Not surprised but disappointed.

All of the 9/11 myths are easily and intelligently debunked by Popular Mechanics. http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html A jet fuel fire burns hotter that a regular fire - and when you add a bellows effect from the high WINDS at that atlitude - the WTC BOTH became blast furnaces. :rolleyes: AND when a plane hits going full speed - the wings FOLD BACK. Dear LORD I wish people would THINK rather than react.

stsinner
09-20-2009, 09:34 PM
Dude... you quoted Loose Change as something that should be taken seriously. I know I am getting to this way too late but damn... Popular Mechanics debunked everything Loose Change idiots had to say.

Honestly, I'd like to read it.. There were some good questions in that movie, and if they were debunked, they were debunked.. I'll look it up, as I'm not in either corner-just asking questions.. Should be an interesting read.

stsinner
09-20-2009, 09:35 PM
Especially after I gave stshitter URL's to debunk his delusions.:rolleyes:

And I appreciate that.. I hadn't seen them. That was some good info.

stsinner
09-20-2009, 09:39 PM
I am very VERY disappointed. Not surprised but disappointed.

All of the 9/11 myths are easily and intelligently debunked by Popular Mechanics. http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html A jet fuel fire burns hotter that a regular fire - and when you add a bellows effect from the high WINDS at that atlitude - the WTC BOTH became blast furnaces. :rolleyes: AND when a plane hits going full speed - the wings FOLD BACK. Dear LORD I wish people would THINK rather than react.

Thanks for the link.

Shannon
09-20-2009, 09:46 PM
Okay people. He clearly appreciates all the info that he was not aware of before this thread...

PoliCon
09-20-2009, 09:49 PM
People - remember to consider the source. There are 100s of websites out there making mad claims about 9/11 and they're by and large all run by kooks.

Shannon
09-20-2009, 09:53 PM
People - remember to consider the source. There are 100s of websites out there making mad claims about 9/11 and they're by and large all run by kooks.

I don't believe it!!! Inside job!!!!

stsinner
09-20-2009, 09:54 PM
People - remember to consider the source. There are 100s of websites out there making mad claims about 9/11 and they're by and large all run by kooks.

Exactly why I wanted to discuss it here.. The websites devoted to the subject are full of idiots anti-Bush rhetoric and I wanted to have a discussion with the most rational people I know on the web... I was unprepared for the backlash and strong emotions, so I dropped it.. I shouldn't have brought it up...

PoliCon
09-20-2009, 10:03 PM
Exactly why I wanted to discuss it here.. The websites devoted to the subject are full of idiots anti-Bush rhetoric and I wanted to have a discussion with the most rational people I know on the web... I was unprepared for the backlash and strong emotions, so I dropped it.. I shouldn't have brought it up...

Look for reliable sources - like popular mechanics - and read up you'll find that once you strip away the mystique of conspiracy everything has a rational reasonable explanation.

asdf2231
09-20-2009, 10:07 PM
Exactly why I wanted to discuss it here.. The websites devoted to the subject are full of idiots anti-Bush rhetoric and I wanted to have a discussion with the most rational people I know on the web... I was unprepared for the backlash and strong emotions, so I dropped it.. I shouldn't have brought it up...

Some of us lost friends that day. We KNOW who killed them.

Locking this.