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View Full Version : By "buying American", we give our troops subpar weapons



OwlMBA
10-11-2009, 02:46 PM
A hard fact to comprehend is that the American-made M4 is simply not the best weapon. H&K and FN make far better choices.


WASHINGTON (AP) - In the chaos of an early morning assault on a remote U.S. outpost in eastern Afghanistan, Staff Sgt. Erich Phillips' M4 carbine quit firing as militant forces surrounded the base. The machine gun he grabbed after tossing the rifle aside didn't work either.

When the battle in the small village of Wanat ended, nine U.S. soldiers lay dead and 27 more were wounded. A detailed study of the attack by a military historian found that weapons failed repeatedly at a "critical moment" during the firefight on July 13, 2008, putting the outnumbered American troops at risk of being overrun by nearly 200 insurgents.

Which raises the question: Eight years into the war against the Taliban in Afghanistan, do U.S. armed forces have the best guns money can buy?

Despite the military's insistence that they do, a small but vocal number of troops in Afghanistan and Iraq has complained that the standard-issue M4 rifles need too much maintenance and jam at the worst possible times.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20091011/D9B8SUPO0.html

stsinner
10-11-2009, 02:47 PM
The one time we're not afraid of being called protectionists by buying our own stuff, and it's when lives are at stake.. Lovely...

Jfor
10-11-2009, 04:42 PM
The same argument was made in Vietnam when the M16 was first issued. Folks don't take care of their weapons and keep them clean and they pay for it with their lives and then we want to blame the weapon. There is nothing wrong with the M4. It is a good rifle. Proper maintenance of the rifle is required to get the most out of it.

asdf2231
10-11-2009, 06:57 PM
It's a bullshit story written by an AP hack.

Yeah his weapon malfunctioned. He put 12+ FREAKING MAGAZINES THROUGH IT. At least 360 rounds. And it was too hot to reload. Big shock. Put 360 rounds through an AK series rifle and you will have the hand guards catching fire. It didn't jam, it overheated.


"I couldn't charge my weapon and put another round in because it was too hot, so I got mad and threw my weapon down."

There is a damn good reason that operators wear nomex gloves.

Unless you have somebody standing there with a CO2 fire extinguisher hosing down the metal ANY freaking weapon is going to heat up too damn quick if you do not maintain a sensible rate of fire.


Cpl. Jason Bogar fired approximately 600 rounds from his M-249 before the weapon overheated and jammed the weapon.

WTF does that even mean? He put 3 cans of ammo through it and it malfunctioned. Were they ripping rounds out without pause? Was it due to a barrel failure? Did the belt get twisted? Was it maintained well enough? Did it stovepipe? Double load? Did the extractor fail? Story doesn't say and the blowjob hack AP reporter trying to jin up a story about how the Army is trying to kill it's own soldiers by screwing them on weapons procurements didn't bother to say.

Put 600 rounds through an old school M60 without maintaining rate of fire discipline and the barrel would droop like hot taffy. There is not a single weapon on earth that is going to be immune from the effects of heat build up when a ton of lead is going downrange.

Oh and the guy who said we need to buy "Good" weapons from H&K and FN? The M249 SAW was DESIGNED by FN.

OwlMBA
10-12-2009, 12:03 AM
It's a bullshit story written by an AP hack.

Yeah his weapon malfunctioned. He put 12+ FREAKING MAGAZINES THROUGH IT. At least 360 rounds. And it was too hot to reload. Big shock. Put 360 rounds through an AK series rifle and you will have the hand guards catching fire. It didn't jam, it overheated.



There is a damn good reason that operators wear nomex gloves.

Unless you have somebody standing there with a CO2 fire extinguisher hosing down the metal ANY freaking weapon is going to heat up too damn quick if you do not maintain a sensible rate of fire.



WTF does that even mean? He put 3 cans of ammo through it and it malfunctioned. Were they ripping rounds out without pause? Was it due to a barrel failure? Did the belt get twisted? Was it maintained well enough? Did it stovepipe? Double load? Did the extractor fail? Story doesn't say and the blowjob hack AP reporter trying to jin up a story about how the Army is trying to kill it's own soldiers by screwing them on weapons procurements didn't bother to say.

Put 600 rounds through an old school M60 without maintaining rate of fire discipline and the barrel would droop like hot taffy. There is not a single weapon on earth that is going to be immune from the effects of heat build up when a ton of lead is going downrange.

Oh and the guy who said we need to buy "Good" weapons from H&K and FN? The M249 SAW was DESIGNED by FN.

The m249 is fine. The m4 is crap in the sand.

stsinner
10-12-2009, 12:26 AM
The same argument was made in Vietnam when the M16 was first issued. Folks don't take care of their weapons and keep them clean and they pay for it with their lives and then we want to blame the weapon. There is nothing wrong with the M4. It is a good rifle. Proper maintenance of the rifle is required to get the most out of it.

I never experienced Vietnam-like conditions with my M16, but I'll confide that I shot expert with my M16 A1, hitting 38 of a possible 40 targets at the range and was awarded a medal for it... I love the M16-just to think that at 300 meters I could hit a person center-mass is pretty mind-blowing.... Just look around your town at windows of buildings approx 300 meters away and know that you could take them out.. That is an awesome weapon...

asdf2231
10-12-2009, 12:31 AM
The m249 is fine. The m4 is crap in the sand.


Do you know why AK series rifles work so well in crappy conditions? Because the tolerances are so loose that they will practically function with handfulls of gravel poured into the recievers. The trade off is they are heavy as snot with combined loads, fairly inaccurate and heat up quicker than an easy bake oven if you try anything resembling high rate of fire. Which tends to throw the accuracy off.

The M4 is a comprimise between weight, firepower and durability. There is not a single main battle rifle made that ever worked for crap in the sand. Unless you go back to Mausers and Lebels.