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Gingersnap
01-05-2010, 11:28 AM
Young children who are smacked 'go on to be more successful'

By Daniel Martin
Last updated at 8:55 AM on 04th January 2010

Disciplined: Children who have been physically admonished at a young age performed better on all counts

Young children who are smacked by their parents grow up to be happier and more successful than those who have never been hit, research claims. It found that children who are smacked before the age of six perform better at school when they are teenagers.

They are also more likely to do voluntary work and to want to go to university than those who have never been physically disciplined. But the study also revealed that children who are smacked after the age of six were more likely to exhibit behavioural problems, such as being involved in fights.

Smacking is currently banned in 20 European countries, including Germany, Spain and the Netherlands.

In Britain 'reasonable chastisement' in the home is allowed unless it leaves a mark.
But the study, by Marjorie Gunnoe, professor of Psychology at Calvin College in the U.S. state of Michigan, found there was not enough evidence to prove that smacking harmed most children. She said: 'The claims that are made for not spanking children fail to hold up.

'I think of spanking as a dangerous-tool, but then there are times when there is a job big enough for a dangerous tool. You don't use it for all your jobs.'

Professor Gunnoe questioned 2,600 people about being smacked, of whom a quarter had never been physically chastised.

The participants' answers then were compared with their behaviour, such as academic success, optimism about the future, antisocial behaviour, violence and bouts of depression.
Teenagers in the survey who had been smacked only between the ages of two and six performed best on all the positive measures.

Those who had been smacked between seven and 11 fared worse on negative behaviour but were more likely to be academically successful. Teenagers who were still smacked fared worst on all counts.
Parenting guru Penelope Leach disagreed with the findings.

'No good can come from hitting a child,' she said. 'I do not buy this idea that children will learn positive behaviour from being smacked.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1240279/Children-smacked-young-likely-successful-study-finds.html#ixzz0bkvT3fIS

Well, duh. :cool:

noonwitch
01-05-2010, 12:28 PM
My "I don't spank my children" sister finally broke down and spanked her then-6 year old after said child bit her. The child's behavior has improved drastically since then. She's even out of her "special counseling" group at school and doesn't have to keep a "feelings journal" for her guidance counselor, like she did last year. Her school behavior was due to boredom-too smart and too energetic for most teachers.

The great thing was that my sister only had to do it once, and it was free. Montessori schools cost a lot of money, although her other grandmother pointed out that Catholic school will get better results for less money, mainly because they spank.

Spanking and hitting are different, though. Hitting is what results in injuries to kids, not spanking them on the butt with your hand. And none of it works after kids reach the age of 10.

Gingersnap
01-05-2010, 01:06 PM
When I was three or four (in the biting stage, anyway) I made the mistake of biting my Swedish grandmother on the pinkie. She instantly stopped (this happened on the street) and proceeded to bite my pinkie. (Not as hard as I bit her, I'm sure.)

That ended my human-biting interest. :p

stsinner
01-05-2010, 01:11 PM
Of course kids that are disciplined are better behaved and happier.. You see spoiled, nasty, miserable kids everywhere, and you can bet it's because they're the, "Time out," kids...

The WWII generation was called The Greatest Generation, and you can bet they got smacked when they got out of line.. This kinder, gentler new world isn't working...

noonwitch
01-05-2010, 01:52 PM
Of course kids that are disciplined are better behaved and happier.. You see spoiled, nasty, miserable kids everywhere, and you can bet it's because they're the, "Time out," kids...

The WWII generation was called The Greatest Generation, and you can bet they got smacked when they got out of line.. This kinder, gentler new world isn't working...



Everybody smacked their kids until the 70s. I was a kid in the 70s, and although I never really got hit much, my siblings did. As my dad said, I didn't need to be smacked, and he never hit or spanked me ( my mom is a different story). But no one in my neighborhood thought spanking, hitting, beating with a belt was child abuse. Burning a kid with cigarettes or beating a kid with a baseball bat, that was abuse. I watched a dad beat a friend of mine in a way that I would now consider abuse, but I just thought he was a mean dad.

What I've noticed in Children's Services is that workers who are my age and older have a very different opinion about what is physical abuse than those who are in their 20s and 30s. Most black workers don't consider smacking a mouthy teen upside the head to be abuse, either. The only ones who do are young, white workers.

Incidentally, this study comes from the city where I grew up. Calvin College is in Grand Rapids.

AlmostThere
01-05-2010, 02:10 PM
When I was very little I was warned never to cross the busy street in front of our house. I was counseled, cajoled, talked to in a very understanding way. That didn't stop me for a second. One day, I crossed the street and as a result I got my butt torn up with a switch. Now THAT got my attention. I guess having red welts on my butt for a day was better than being road kill.

lacarnut
01-05-2010, 02:31 PM
Spanking and hitting are different, though. Hitting is what results in injuries to kids, not spanking them on the butt with your hand. And none of it works after kids reach the age of 10.

The age factor depends on the circumstances. After I got a beating with a leather razor strap for playing a pinball machine, it worked on me. I never wanted to see another gambling machine. To this day, a casino hold no interest for me.

FlaGator
01-05-2010, 02:39 PM
It taught me that there are limits to my behavior and that some actions are unacceptable without some form of social retribution.

linda22003
01-05-2010, 04:05 PM
I had my share of bottom swats as a child, but I can't condone the use of weaponry as some of you report. :(

Apache
01-05-2010, 04:53 PM
I had my share of bottom swats as a child, but I can't condone the use of weaponry as some of you report. :(

Bottom line; Spare the rod, spoil the child...

AlmostThere
01-07-2010, 12:20 AM
I had my share of bottom swats as a child, but I can't condone the use of weaponry as some of you report. :(

When the consequences are serious, maybe deadly serious, swats on the bottom just doesn't get it. It has to be something that will stick with the child, something the child will remember well after the incident. Maybe something they remember years later. But when their life may well depend on it, it strikes me as a reasonable trade off.

My mom never had to repeat with the switch because I never set foot in that street again. She got my attention. Thanks mom.

PoliCon
01-07-2010, 12:28 AM
When I was three or four (in the biting stage, anyway) I made the mistake of biting my Swedish grandmother on the pinkie. She instantly stopped (this happened on the street) and proceeded to bite my pinkie. (Not as hard as I bit her, I'm sure.)

That ended my human-biting interest. :p

did the same thing to my nephew the first time he bit me. The look on his face was priceless. Needless to say - he never bit me again. :)

PoliCon
01-07-2010, 12:30 AM
There is a real difference between a spanking and abuse. If you hit when you are angry - without warning - or without reason - that's abuse. I know. I was abused.

Rockntractor
01-07-2010, 01:21 AM
There is a real difference between a spanking and abuse. If you hit when you are angry - without warning - or without reason - that's abuse. I know. I was abused.

How would you like as whack along side the head shorty?

Rockntractor
01-07-2010, 01:31 AM
I had my share of bottom swats as a child, but I can't condone the use of weaponry as some of you report. :(

There goes my fantasy of the stern sexy school marm with the ruler!:(

AlmostThere
01-07-2010, 01:46 AM
There is a real difference between a spanking and abuse. If you hit when you are angry - without warning - or without reason - that's abuse. I know. I was abused.

That is sad, but did anything good come from it? Did it make you a better person today? That may sound pretty bizarre, I know.

My dad was a pretty bad guy. He was a mean drunk. He never hit my brother or me because my mom would have killed him. But when I was little I saw him punch out my grandmother. To this day, I have never raised a hand to a woman in anger. I can't do it. I never spanked my daughter as a child. I couldn't do it. I've told my son that if he ever raises his hand to a girl, it had better be because his life is seriously in danger from her. Otherwise, I will hurt him.... badly.

Abuse is a horrible thing, but if you're lucky, something good can come from it. I hope it did for you.

PoliCon
01-07-2010, 01:52 AM
That is sad, but did anything good come from it? Did it make you a better person today? That may sound pretty bizarre, I know.

My dad was a pretty bad guy. He was a mean drunk. He never hit my brother or me because my mom would have killed him. But when I was little I saw him punch out my grandmother. To this day, I have never raised a hand to a woman in anger. I can't do it. I never spanked my daughter as a child. I couldn't do it. I've told my son that if he ever raises his hand to a girl, it had better be because his life is seriously in danger from her. Otherwise, I will hurt him.... badly.

Abuse is a horrible thing, but if you're lucky, something good can come from it. I hope it did for you.

My dad abused me physically, mentally and emotionally. And thanks to that I was left open to sexual abuse in my teens. No that abuse did not help me become a better person. He nearly killed me more than once and if my mother had not put herself between he and I he would have killed me shortly before they divorced. The abuse I went through damn near destroyed me. OVERCOMING that abuse has made me a better person.

AlmostThere
01-07-2010, 02:35 AM
My dad abused me physically, mentally and emotionally. And thanks to that I was left open to sexual abuse in my teens. No that abuse did not help me become a better person. He nearly killed me more than once and if my mother had not put herself between he and I he would have killed me shortly before they divorced. The abuse I went through damn near destroyed me. OVERCOMING that abuse has made me a better person.

If you hadn't experienced the abuse, you wouldn't have overcome it. I can't imagine what you went through. It must have been incredibly horrible at the time.

I do know that if we consider ourselves victims, they win, we lose. Friedrich Nietzsche said "That which does not kill us makes us stronger". There's a lot of truth to that. Six years ago a doctor told me I have Multiple Sclerosis. It's had a pretty dramatic effect on my life, physically and mentally. First year I was convinced the doctor was wrong. The next couple years I was really fucking mad. Then a while where I was a poor victim. Screw that! M.S. may do some nasty stuff to me but I'll be damned if I'll be it's victim.

Don't be a victim. They/it will win if you do. How about this? You fought it, you came out alive and you're a helluva lot better for it.

PoliCon
01-07-2010, 02:47 AM
If you hadn't experienced the abuse, you wouldn't have overcome it. I can't imagine what you went through. It must have been incredibly horrible at the time.

I do know that if we consider ourselves victims, they win, we lose. Friedrich Nietzsche said "That which does not kill us makes us stronger". There's a lot of truth to that. Six years ago a doctor told me I have Multiple Sclerosis. It's had a pretty dramatic effect on my life, physically and mentally. First year I was convinced the doctor was wrong. The next couple years I was really fucking mad. Then a while where I was a poor victim. Screw that! M.S. may do some nasty stuff to me but I'll be damned if I'll be it's victim.

Don't be a victim. They/it will win if you do. How about this? You fought it, you came out alive and you're a helluva lot better for it.

Oh I'm not a victim. What was done to me - does not define me. How I deal with it does. I don't have the tag I do for nothing. I'm not saying I don't still have issues - cause I do. There's a reason why I don't sleep at night a lot of nights - But I deal with it. If I could forget it - I wouldn't have the nightmares. :( Thankfully they plague me less often than they did when I was younger.

AlmostThere
01-07-2010, 03:24 AM
Oh I'm not a victim. What was done to me - does not define me. How I deal with it does. I don't have the tag I do for nothing. I'm not saying I don't still have issues - cause I do. There's a reason why I don't sleep at night a lot of nights - But I deal with it. If I could forget it - I wouldn't have the nightmares. :( Thankfully they plague me less often than they did when I was younger.

Well, it's for different reasons, but there are a lot of times when I sleep every other night. I didn't sleep last night at all, it's 3AM and I have to be up in 4 hours. I can sympathize with you.

Here, this will make you feel better in comparison. A few years ago I went under general anesthesia when I had my nose worked on. I think it was the anesthesia that caused me to have the worst exacerbation I've had. I swore I wouldn't do that again.

Tomorrow, actually this afternoon, I'm having surgery on my hand.

I'M DOING JUST A LOCAL!!!:eek::eek:
The hospital called me today to go over some stuff and they couldn't believe I was doing a local. They even called my doctor to verify it when I told them.

Wimps!

HomerJay
01-07-2010, 05:53 AM
The age factor depends on the circumstances. After I got a beating with a leather razor strap for playing a pinball machine, it worked on me. I never wanted to see another gambling machine. To this day, a casino hold no interest for me.

When has a pinball machine been considered a gambling machine?:confused:

Sonnabend
01-07-2010, 07:46 AM
When has a pinball machine been considered a gambling machine?

I was about to ask the same thing...:confused:

linda22003
01-07-2010, 07:52 AM
My mom never had to repeat with the switch because I never set foot in that street again. She got my attention. Thanks mom.

We had the "dangerous street" issue too, and my mother accomplished the lesson with her hand.

linda22003
01-07-2010, 07:55 AM
There goes my fantasy of the stern sexy school marm with the ruler!:(

Sounds like something the comedian Emo Phillips once said, "You don't appreciate a lot of stuff in school until you get older. Little things like being spanked every day by a middle aged woman: stuff you pay good money for in later life."

djones520
01-07-2010, 07:58 AM
My parents always used their hands. My grandmother used to beat my father with whatever she could get her hands on, and he refused to raise us like that. I don't remember when they stopped "spanking" me. Probably about the time my father started training me in the Martial Arts and we just started having "training sessions".

I'm will not be adverse at all to spanking my child either.

noonwitch
01-07-2010, 09:14 AM
Oh I'm not a victim. What was done to me - does not define me. How I deal with it does. I don't have the tag I do for nothing. I'm not saying I don't still have issues - cause I do. There's a reason why I don't sleep at night a lot of nights - But I deal with it. If I could forget it - I wouldn't have the nightmares. :( Thankfully they plague me less often than they did when I was younger.



I know what you mean about not being a victim. I didn't really get beat as a child, but I watched my mom beat the crap out of my sister with a wooden spoon on a daily basis. I don't mean spanking, I mean beating. My mom was emotionally abusive to all three of us, and neglectful enough that some bad things happened-I'm not a victim, either. My dad was a non-factor most of the time because he was either working or drunk (or both). He hit my siblings, but I was his favorite. My mom turned us against him, and made my brother the man of the house.

My mom's family is insane, except for her father and her older brother. Grandpa was the only sane one in his immediate family-one of his brothers was a mean drunk, and the other was a pedophile. His half-siblings were cool, though, but they stayed behind in Europe and ended up on the wrong side of the iron curtain. My grandmother was a bit nutty, and a bit slutty. My mom managed to convince us that this was the normal family, and that my father's family was the abnormal one because they didn't hug and kiss each other all the time! What drives my mother crazy about me is that my personality is a lot more like my paternal grandmother than she ever thought possible, because we spent most of our family time with her relatives. When my dad would try to stop her from exposing us to some of her more dangerous relatives, she'd go running off to her mother and tell her how mean my dad was to her. Then Grandma would tell Grandpa, and he'd have a talk with my dad about treating my mom better. My dad loves my Grandpa like his own dad, and never would defend himself. Plus, he was screwing his secretary and drinking a lot, so he was feeling guilty to begin with.

I swear, if I didn't end up working in Children's Services, I'd be writing for General Hospital. But I don't sit around feeling sorry for myself or anything like that, and I try to encourage the kids I work with not to see themselves as victims, but as people who can take control of their lives.

My mom has a boyfriend who is a retired psychologist. As much as I despise him and think he's only using her for her money, she's his problem, at least for now. My sister worries that mom will be her problem-I keep telling her to remember 3 words, Henry Ford Village.

lacarnut
01-07-2010, 10:03 AM
When has a pinball machine been considered a gambling machine?:confused:

In the 50's and 60's they paid off. Nickel machines would go up to a thousand credits and you could cash them in. Back then, they had them all over town including drug stores.

AlmostThere
01-07-2010, 10:36 AM
In the 50's and 60's they paid off. Nickel machines would go up to a thousand credits and you could cash them in. Back then, they had them all over town including drug stores.

When you said pinball machine, I'd have bet those are what you were talking about. I remember seeing my mom win money off those a number of times when I was a kid. If I remember right, they almost resembled a bingo card, as in rows of numbers. Boy, that is a way-back machine moment.

AlmostThere
01-07-2010, 11:06 AM
We had the "dangerous street" issue too, and my mother accomplished the lesson with her hand.

I have always known/suspected that girls are smarter than boys. When my daughter was about 2, I was putting safety locks on the cabinets. She was following right behind me, opening them up after I put the locks on. So my wife and I sat her down and explained that she should never touch anything in the cabinets because it could hurt her. She never did. She'd see us using something from the cabinets and she'd point at it and say, "danger". By the time my son was 5, I'd probably told him hundreds of times that electrical wall outlets were dangerous. I'm working in the yard one day with an electric weed eater when I lose power. I go into the garage and find him and a screw driver stuck in a wall outlet.

I'm sorry, boys are stupid. It's genetic. We think we're invincible. Something to do with the hunter/gatherer thing I think. We need something that gets our attention and really makes an impression.

I didn't have to tell my son again about wall outlets. It made an impression on him. Unfortunately, that's what it took.

linda22003
01-07-2010, 11:11 AM
I have always known/suspected that girls are smarter than boys.

The evidence on that is pretty compelling. ;)

PoliCon
01-07-2010, 12:19 PM
Well, it's for different reasons, but there are a lot of times when I sleep every other night. I didn't sleep last night at all, it's 3AM and I have to be up in 4 hours. I can sympathize with you.

Here, this will make you feel better in comparison. A few years ago I went under general anesthesia when I had my nose worked on. I think it was the anesthesia that caused me to have the worst exacerbation I've had. I swore I wouldn't do that again.

Tomorrow, actually this afternoon, I'm having surgery on my hand.

I'M DOING JUST A LOCAL!!!:eek::eek:
The hospital called me today to go over some stuff and they couldn't believe I was doing a local. They even called my doctor to verify it when I told them.

Wimps!

Good luck on the surgery. I do my best to avoid stuff like that.

AlmostThere
01-07-2010, 01:59 PM
Good luck on the surgery. I do my best to avoid stuff like that.

Thanks, it's no big deal. Just some fingers that are stiff they can fix.

Ya know, I was saying that everything in your life, no matter how unfortunate, can have an upside. I thought of another one. For six years I've been doing a weekly injection for my M.S. I do the once a week variety. It's intramuscular with this long-ass needle. I've always done my own shots. It gives me a sense of control over something I have no control of. Anyway, I digress. For 6 years I've been doing this. Whenever possible, I'll do my shot in front of my kids. They've seen me do this at least a couple hundred times. Still, it totally freaks them out every time. :D:D

Now that is abuse.:D God, I love it.

FlaGator
01-07-2010, 02:01 PM
Bottom line; Spare the rod, spoil the child...

Interestingly enough, from a Biblical perspective that phrase is often used out of context.

noonwitch
01-07-2010, 02:07 PM
Interestingly enough, from a Biblical perspective that phrase is often used out of context.


In my professional life, I've heard several parents use it to justify savagely beating their children. My sister tried to tell me that she would tell people that the rod is the shepard's tool to guide his flock, not beat the sheep. I told her that a person who knew the Bible well enough to argue with her would point to the other verse in Proverbs that ends with "a rod for the backs of fools". The 23rd Psalm might use the rod in the shepherd's context, but Proverbs doesn't necessarily do so.

PoliCon
01-07-2010, 02:20 PM
Thanks, it's no big deal. Just some fingers that are stiff they can fix.

Ya know, I was saying that everything in your life, no matter how unfortunate, can have an upside. I thought of another one. For six years I've been doing a weekly injection for my M.S. I do the once a week variety. It's intramuscular with this long-ass needle. I've always done my own shots. It gives me a sense of control over something I have no control of. Anyway, I digress. For 6 years I've been doing this. Whenever possible, I'll do my shot in front of my kids. They've seen me do this at least a couple hundred times. Still, it totally freaks them out every time. :D:D

Now that is abuse.:D God, I love it.

I can't do shots. I had a cat who developed feline diabetes and it took me an hour to psych myself to give the cat a shot when I had to do it. To this day I need fair warning and time to get myself in the right frame of mind to accept a shot. . . . I once bit a nurse who came at me too fast with a needle - I was 13 or 14 at the time - and I did warn her . . . . I was in for stitches again . . . I was always getting stitches as a kid - even got them twice in my tongue. I'll tell you what I like to do to freak people out . . . the splits. :D Ever see a 6'3 200lb man drop in to a full splits?

PoliCon
01-07-2010, 02:21 PM
Interestingly enough, from a Biblical perspective that phrase is often used out of context.

yup. The rod being spoken of is a measuring rod not the ass beating kind.

AlmostThere
01-08-2010, 01:19 AM
I'll tell you what I like to do to freak people out . . . the splits. :D Ever see a 6'3 200lb man drop in to a full splits?
You have to be doing some serious stretching on a daily basis to pull that off. Are you into martial arts? My son was into Taekwondo for a couple years and he could pull off some pretty good splits. You can really drop to a full split? That is scary.

I was never crazy about shots either, but you do what you gotta do. I tell ya what would make them a helluva lot more painful, and that would be having no insurance. Each shot is almost $ 650. :eek: I pay $20 for a box of 4 that retails for just under $2600. Is that nuts or what?

I had that surgery on my hand this afternoon. I'm convinced the hospital was just trying to run up the bill by wanting me to do a general anesthetic. I would have been totally embarrassed doing a general after seeing what was involved. The worst part by far was when he stuck me to inject the local. My doc had been practicing in New York city on 9/11. As he was working we had a nice conversation about his experience that day. He finished up, they rolled me to a room, I changed clothes and left. Doing a local I could drive myself and no recovery time. I'll admit, I was a little apprehensive about doing a local, but other than that first stick I didn't feel a damn thing. :)

10 minutes after leaving the operating room I'm in the elevator. But what really made it great was the parking cashier shuts down at 6:00PM, it was after 6, so my parking was free. Sweet.:)

Rockntractor
01-08-2010, 01:24 AM
You have to be doing some serious stretching on a daily basis to pull that off. Are you into martial arts? My son was into Taekwondo for a couple years and he could pull off some pretty good splits. You can really drop to a full split? That is scary.

I was never crazy about shots either, but you do what you gotta do. I tell ya what would make them a helluva lot more painful, and that would be having no insurance. Each shot is almost $ 650. :eek: I pay $20 for a box of 4 that retails for just under $2600. Is that nuts or what?

I had that surgery on my hand this afternoon. I'm convinced the hospital was just trying to run up the bill by wanting me to do a general anesthetic. I would have been totally embarrassed doing a general after seeing what was involved. The worst part by far was when he stuck me to inject the local. My doc had been practicing in New York city on 9/11. As he was working we had a nice conversation about his experience that day. He finished up, they rolled me to a room, I changed clothes and left. Doing a local I could drive myself and no recovery time. I'll admit, I was a little apprehensive about doing a local, but other than that first stick I didn't feel a damn thing. :)

10 minutes after leaving the operating room I'm in the elevator. But what really made it great was the parking cashier shuts down at 6:00PM, it was after 6, so my parking was free. Sweet.:)

I hope it heals well!:)

PoliCon
01-08-2010, 01:35 AM
You have to be doing some serious stretching on a daily basis to pull that off. Are you into martial arts? My son was into Taekwondo for a couple years and he could pull off some pretty good splits. You can really drop to a full split? That is scary.No and no. I did gymnastics though back in the day . . . . I have a join dysfunction where I dislocate things easily and all my joints are loose - so . . . the splits are easy.


I was never crazy about shots either, but you do what you gotta do. I tell ya what would make them a helluva lot more painful, and that would be having no insurance. Each shot is almost $ 650. :eek: I pay $20 for a box of 4 that retails for just under $2600. Is that nuts or what? ouch that hurts me!:eek:


I had that surgery on my hand this afternoon. I'm convinced the hospital was just trying to run up the bill by wanting me to do a general anesthetic. I would have been totally embarrassed doing a general after seeing what was involved. The worst part by far was when he stuck me to inject the local. My doc had been practicing in New York city on 9/11. As he was working we had a nice conversation about his experience that day. He finished up, they rolled me to a room, I changed clothes and left. Doing a local I could drive myself and no recovery time. I'll admit, I was a little apprehensive about doing a local, but other than that first stick I didn't feel a damn thing.

10 minutes after leaving the operating room I'm in the elevator. But what really made it great was the parking cashier shuts down at 6:00PM, it was after 6, so my parking was free. Sweet.:) nothing like getting out without having to pay parking :)

AlmostThere
01-08-2010, 01:54 AM
I hope it heals well!:)

Thanks. Before he closed up he told me to open and close my fist. It's been a long time since I could do that so easily. I figure I'm way ahead already but I think it will be fine. :)