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megimoo
07-31-2008, 03:16 PM
Knife-wielding man beheads fellow passenger on bus
A passenger traveling on a bus across Canada's vast Western plains stabbed, gutted and decapitated a man seated next to him in an unexplained attack, a witness told media Thursday.

The victim had been sleeping before he was repeatedly stabbed in the chest by a man with a large knife, witness Garnet Caton told public broadcaster CBC.


The other 35 passengers and driver were jolted by "blood-curdling screams" and fled. "He must have stabbed him 50 times or 60 times," said Caton.

When Caton and two others returned to check on the victim, he said they saw the attacker "cutting the guy's head off and gutting him."

"While we were watching ... he calmly walked up to the front (of the bus) with the head in his hand and the knife and just calmly stared at us and dropped the head right in front of us."

Police then surrounded the bus and arrested the man, he said.


http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080731164359.ewx3rtpg&show_article=1

LogansPapa
07-31-2008, 03:18 PM
"Hey, that's my seat!"

FlaGator
07-31-2008, 03:30 PM
I guess an old fashion butt whipping is a thing of the past.

Gingersnap
07-31-2008, 04:53 PM
Thirty five people couldn't disarm one knife-wielding maniac?

Oh, it's Canada, the Land of Nice People. :rolleyes:

FlaGator
07-31-2008, 06:35 PM
Thirty five people couldn't disarm one knife-wielding maniac?

Oh, it's Canada, the Land of Nice People. :rolleyes:

Boot he was holding someone's head!

asdf2231
07-31-2008, 06:46 PM
This is why you never eat Mexican or Thai before getting on a bus and sitting next to a total stranger for a long time.

Jumpy
07-31-2008, 07:18 PM
Thirty five people couldn't disarm one knife-wielding maniac?

Oh, it's Canada, the Land of Nice People. :rolleyes:Most of the passengers were asleep when it happened, and the victim was likely dead before anybody could've intervened. I think the passengers were heroic in preventing the killer from hurting anybody else. If you read the article, you see that the killer sat right next to the sleeping victim. I doubt that anybody wouldve reacted fast enough to prevent his death.

Unless you are an Army Ranger.. Navy Seal type person, you would not have been able to stop this.

The passengers.. children included, were off the bus and nobody else was hurt or injured.

A truck driver stopped, and the folks armed themselves with crowbars, etc, just in case the killer managed to fight his way out of the bus.

I hope the young victim died quickly. I imagine he was gone before the beheading happened. I cannot even imagine what his family must be going through right now.

Phillygirl
07-31-2008, 07:20 PM
Most of the passengers were asleep when it happened, and the victim was likely dead before anybody could've intervened. I think the passengers were heroic in preventing the killer from hurting anybody else. If you read the article, you see that the killer sat right next to the sleeping victim. I doubt that anybody wouldve reacted fast enough to prevent his death.

Unless you are an Army Ranger.. Navy Seal type person, you would not have been able to stop this.

The passengers.. children included, were off the bus and nobody else was hurt or injured.

A truck driver stopped, and the folks armed themselves with crowbars, etc, just in case the killer managed to fight his way out of the bus.

They could have prevented the decapitation. They possibly could have prevented the death. They are not heroes. They did the minimal that is expected of a human being...they called for someone else to come to make certain they weren't hurt themselves.

Jumpy
07-31-2008, 07:24 PM
They could have prevented the decapitation. They possibly could have prevented the death. They are not heroes. They did the minimal that is expected of a human being...they called for someone else to come to make certain they weren't hurt themselves.
I disagree with you. I have read several articles on it... people were asleep. The guy has a knife, and is stabbing the victim in the chest. Would you intervene?? I have to say that I could not..

The bus driver and others tried to help the victim, but the guy went at them with the knife. This is a bus aisle.. they cannot surround him.

Unless someone, a good shot, was armed with a gun, I do not believe this could have been prevented. edited to say... it could possibly have been prevented by having bus passengers go through metal detectors.

Jumpy
07-31-2008, 07:41 PM
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/07/31/greyhound-transcanada.html

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080731/Manitoba_bus_080731/20080731?hub=TopStories

Gingersnap
07-31-2008, 07:53 PM
I disagree with you. I have read several articles on it... people were asleep. The guy has a knife, and is stabbing the victim in the chest. Would you intervene?? I have to say that I could not..

The bus driver and others tried to help the victim, but the guy went at them with the knife. This is a bus aisle.. they cannot surround him.

Unless someone, a good shot, was armed with a gun, I do not believe this could have been prevented. edited to say... it could possibly have been prevented by having bus passengers go through metal detectors.

I may the only one on this site who has routinely taken Greyhound buses cross-country. I can tell you for a fact that nobody (aside from the drunks) can sleep soundly on a bus. One scream and the whole place would be awake instantly. The article says the victim was stabbed dozens of times. While stabbing can happen quickly indeed, you have to know that those people watched it happen and did not instantly rush the killer.

It's true that intervening may not have saved the victim if an artery was severed and it's true that the rescuers may have received non-life threatening injuries, but they could have given the guy a shot at surviving.

They were cowards.

Jumpy
07-31-2008, 08:06 PM
I may the only one on this site who has routinely taken Greyhound buses cross-country. I can tell you for a fact that nobody (aside from the drunks) can sleep soundly on a bus. One scream and the whole place would be awake instantly. The article says the victim was stabbed dozens of times. While stabbing can happen quickly indeed, you have to know that those people watched it happen and did not instantly rush the killer.

It's true that intervening may not have saved the victim if an artery was severed and it's true that the rescuers may have received non-life threatening injuries, but they could have given the guy a shot at surviving.

They were cowards. You wouldve been alert enough to organize a group of people to attack the attacker... maybe in time to save him?

The victim could not have been the only person asleep when the attack started. He was asleep, so most likely, others were too.

Those people were not just standing there watching... they were getting off the bus as fast as they could. One person said that he was running up the aisle, "slapping people" to wake them to get off the bus.

This victim could not have been saved... and for the people to get off the bus, locking the guy into it... disabling the guy from taking off with the bus.. it prevented a potential massacre, IMO.

Gingersnap
07-31-2008, 08:17 PM
You wouldve been alert enough to organize a group of people to attack the attacker... maybe in time to save him?

There's no organizing involved. Both before and after 9/11 studies proved that it takes only one person willing to rush the crazy to instantly recruit half a dozen others. Time after time now we read articles about nut cases on planes who are just subdued by the passengers after one person makes a move.

This guy was a insane guy. He had no plans to kill everyone aboard. While the rescuers may have gotten cut, bitten, or punched it's unlikely that any of them would have sustained life-threatening wounds. People get fixed up in the ER all time after being on the wrong end of a stabby attack.

Nobody gets fixed up after being on the wrong end of a decapitation.

Jumpy
07-31-2008, 08:19 PM
There's no organizing involved. Both before and after 9/11 studies proved that it takes only one person willing to rush the crazy to instantly recruit half a dozen others. Time after time now we read articles about nut cases on planes who are just subdued by the passengers after one person makes a move.

This guy was a insane guy. He had no plans to kill everyone aboard. While the rescuers may have gotten cut, bitten, or punched it's unlikely that any of them would have sustained life-threatening wounds. People get fixed up in the ER all time after being on the wrong end of a stabby attack.

Nobody gets fixed up after being on the wrong end of a decapitation.Sadly, and mercifully, with all of the stabbing, He was most likely dead before the decapitation.

You are calling all the passengers on this bus, "cowards". What would you have done??

Phillygirl
07-31-2008, 08:21 PM
I disagree with you. I have read several articles on it... people were asleep. The guy has a knife, and is stabbing the victim in the chest. Would you intervene?? I have to say that I could not..

The bus driver and others tried to help the victim, but the guy went at them with the knife. This is a bus aisle.. they cannot surround him.

Unless someone, a good shot, was armed with a gun, I do not believe this could have been prevented. edited to say... it could possibly have been prevented by having bus passengers go through metal detectors.

I'd like to think I would have. I'd like to think that it would be impossible for me to merely think of my own safety while someone was getting hacked to death. I'd like to think that if I were the victim, and there were 35 people there, a few of them would stop the guy from chopping my head off. But I'd also like to think sometimes that we, as a race, are not doomed. Generally, I'm wrong on that.

Jumpy
07-31-2008, 08:23 PM
I'd like to think I would have. I'd like to think that it would be impossible for me to merely think of my own safety while someone was getting hacked to death. I'd like to think that if I were the victim, and there were 35 people there, a few of them would stop the guy from chopping my head off. But I'd also like to think sometimes that we, as a race, are not doomed. Generally, I'm wrong on that.From what I have read, this victim was very likely dead before the decapitation. He wouldve been dead from the stabbing.

So you would run back on the bus, down the aisle, and one-on-one, confront an insane person with a knife?

Phillygirl
07-31-2008, 08:25 PM
From what I have read, this victim was very likely dead before the decapitation. He wouldve been dead from the stabbing.

So you would run back on the bus, down the aisle, and one-on-one, confront an insane person with a knife?

I would hope that I would. Human dignity requires it.

Jumpy
07-31-2008, 08:26 PM
I would hope that I would. Human dignity requires it.And you would be dead if you did. The victim was already gone... if you confronted the killer...one-on-one in a narrow aisle, that would be another victim. Unless you are a master of martial arts, an army ranger, or navy seal.

They saved lives by locking him in the bus and confining him until people with guns arrived.

Phillygirl
07-31-2008, 08:32 PM
And you would be dead if you did. The victim was already gone... if you confronted the killer...one-on-one in a narrow aisle, that would be another victim. Unless you are a master of martial arts, an army ranger, or navy seal.

They saved lives by locking him in the bus and confining him until people with guns arrived.

We don't really know that. Nor would we know that in that instant. People have survived multiple stab wounds. And it certainly would be impossible for me to know the victim was dead as I was running out the door to save myself. If it were a child that he was stabbing, would you likewise run away?

megimoo
07-31-2008, 08:35 PM
Sadly, and mercifully, with all of the stabbing, He was most likely dead before the decapitation.

You are calling all the passengers on this bus, "cowards". What would you have done??
You must be A Canadian !

Jumpy
07-31-2008, 08:40 PM
We don't really know that. Nor would we know that in that instant. People have survived multiple stab wounds. And it certainly would be impossible for me to know the victim was dead as I was running out the door to save myself. If it were a child that he was stabbing, would you likewise run away?If somebody screamed, "knife", and was slapping me awake.. ABSOLUTELY. The entire bus did not know what was going on, and with the mass killings that we have had, they would all feel as if they were potential victims.

Truthfully, I do not think I would intervene on a crazed person stabbing someone. I am not trained for it. I would not know what to do.. other than jump on their back. And in a bus, that might not be possible. I would be confused, and not even know what was happening.

If it were one of my children.. yes.. I would give my life to maybe intervene. It would be a willing risk.

Is there ANY record of any woman in the USA intervening in something like this for something other than her own children?? We all like to think we would intervene, but has anybody who is not trained... women especially, really done it?? Why on earth would you/we be any different?

Space Gravy
07-31-2008, 08:43 PM
I may the only one on this site who has routinely taken Greyhound buses cross-country. I can tell you for a fact that nobody (aside from the drunks) can sleep soundly on a bus. One scream and the whole place would be awake instantly. The article says the victim was stabbed dozens of times. While stabbing can happen quickly indeed, you have to know that those people watched it happen and did not instantly rush the killer.

It's true that intervening may not have saved the victim if an artery was severed and it's true that the rescuers may have received non-life threatening injuries, but they could have given the guy a shot at surviving.

They were cowards.

Does Greyhound screen passengers and luggage for weapons?

You can barely get toothpaste on a plane. Is it that easy to bring a knife on a National Bus line?

Jumpy
07-31-2008, 08:43 PM
You must be A Canadian ! And you would have done what? No, I am not Canadian. Have you read the links? What do you think you would have been heroic enough to do, while unarmed, in a bus aisle, against a crazed knife wielding killer?

The passengers prevened more deaths by locking the guy in the bus.

Jumpy
07-31-2008, 08:44 PM
Does Greyhound screen passengers and luggage for weapons?

No, they do not.

Phillygirl
07-31-2008, 08:45 PM
And you would have done what? No, I am not Canadian. Have you read the links? What do you think you would have been heroic enough to do, while unarmed, in a bus aisle, against a crazed knife wielding killer?

The passengers prevened more deaths by locking the guy in the bus.

Well, we don't actually know that he wanted more than one head, do we?

Space Gravy
07-31-2008, 08:46 PM
No, they do not.

You've got to be kidding me..........that's insane.

Jumpy
07-31-2008, 08:48 PM
Well, we don't actually know that he wanted more than one head, do we?

We dont, but when the bus driver and others approached him, he lunged at them with the knife, so it is safe to say.. he wouldve had another victim. It is not as if they could surround him in the bus aisle. After the chest stabbings.. 50 something stabbings.. the poor guy was likely gone.

megimoo
07-31-2008, 08:57 PM
And you would have done what? No, I am not Canadian. Have you read the links? What do you think you would have been heroic enough to do, while unarmed, in a bus aisle, against a crazed knife wielding killer?

The passengers prevened more deaths by locking the guy in the bus.
Wrap a coat around your arm to protect it and swing a suitcase at him ..

Throw a suitcase at him while four or five guys should have been able to distract him or at least dent his head a little.

Do something to stop the madman.I realise the fear most people have for a crazy with a knife but when the trucker showed up they had a ceowbar ,beat the crap out of him with it.

megimoo
07-31-2008, 08:59 PM
You've got to be kidding me..........that's insane.After this they will !

Jumpy
07-31-2008, 09:01 PM
Wrap a coat around your arm to protect it and swing a suitcase at him ..

Throw a suitcase at him while four or five guys should have been able to distract him or at least dent his head a little.

Do something to stop the madman.I realise the fear most people have for a crazy with a knife but when the trucker showed up they had a ceowbar ,beat the crap out of him with it. It was too late for a crowbar. The were protecting themselves, in case he managed to get off the bus. Pretty cool that you wouldve been able to react so fast and save the day. Apparantly CU is the exception. All heros, in hindsight.

megimoo
07-31-2008, 09:23 PM
It was too late for a crowbar. The were protecting themselves, in case he managed to get off the bus. Pretty cool that you wouldve been able to react so fast and save the day. Apparantly CU is the exception. All heros, in hindsight.
Nope Just average Americans with blood in our viens and quick to anger if someone is in need.Much like those guys on the hyjacked plane heading for the White House.At least they tried to do something !
Look I enjoy your posts and I don't want to fight with you so I'll shut up now !

Jumpy
07-31-2008, 09:32 PM
Nope Just average Americans with blood in our viens and quick to anger if someone is in need.Much like those guys on the hyjacked plane heading for the White House.At least they tried to do something !
Look I enjoy your posts and I don't want to fight with you so I'll shut up now ! noooo.... dont shut up. I enjoy your posts too, and I find the thread interesting.

Okay... show me where any American woman has intervened on an attack like this? Has any American been heroic enough to stop an attack on a bus.. in a narrow aisle... somewhat similar circumstances?

I have heard of attacks go down in the USA, where I think to myself, "WHY didnt anybody intervene??? I would have intervned, and I really think that I would". A women raped.. begging for help.. I think that happened in NYC. All sorts of horrible things where nobody helps. Heck, we have some things on video, on Youtube, I would imagine.

I just do not believe that most of us wouldve reacted any differently than those bus passengers, given the same circumstances. They were not cowards.

LibraryLady
07-31-2008, 09:36 PM
I have traveled from Virginia to Louisiana on Greyhound several times


Colwell said the "brave" behaviour of the passengers and driver probably prevented anyone else from being hurt.

"It's not something that happens regularly on a bus," he said. "You're sitting there enjoying your trip and then all of a sudden somebody gets stabbed. I imagine it would be pretty traumatic … the way they acted was extraordinary."

Garnet Caton, who was sitting in the seat in front of the victim, said he saw the attacker stab his seatmate, a young man sleeping with his headphones on.

Caton said he heard a "blood-curdling scream" and turned around to see the attacker holding a large "Rambo" hunting knife above the victim, "continually stabbing him in the chest area."

"He must have stabbed him 50 times or 60 times," said Caton.

"Like, just everywhere, arms, legs, neck, chest, guts, wherever he could swing it, he got it," said Olmstead.

"It looked kind of like a scuffle or an argument, you know, and then somebody's, like, 'Knife! Knife! Run!' so I was running up the alleyway, slapping people telling them to get going, move, get off the bus. I got pushed over, some lady got pushed over, I was just making sure everybody was OK, and we all got off the bus," said Olmstead

Caton, the driver and a trucker who had stopped at the scene later boarded the vehicle to see if the victim was still alive.

"When we came back on the bus, it was visible at the end of the bus he was cutting the guy's head off and pretty much gutting him up," said Caton.

The attacker ran at them, Caton said, and they ran out of the bus, holding the door shut as he tried to slash at the trio.

When the attacker tried to drive the bus away, the driver disabled the vehicle, Caton said.

"While we were watching the door, he calmly walks up to the front with the head in his hand and the knife and just calmly stares at us and drops the head right in front of us," said Caton.

"They did an awesome thing, holding him in there, because if not, what would have happened?" said Olmstead.
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/story/2008/07/31/greyhound-transcanada.html?ref=rss


Colwell praised the "extraordinary" level-headedness and bravery of the bus driver and passengers.

"What you saw and what you experienced would shake the most seasoned police officer. And yet I'm told that each of you acted swiftly, calmly and bravely," Colwell said. "As a result, no one else was injured."

suitcase's are stored in the belly of the bus. There is minimal space and most people carry a tote and some snacks.

Phillygirl
07-31-2008, 09:38 PM
noooo.... dont shut up. I enjoy your posts too, and I find the thread interesting.

Okay... show me where any American woman has intervened on an attack like this? Has any American been heroic enough to stop an attack on a bus.. in a narrow aisle... somewhat similar circumstances?

I have heard of attacks go down in the USA, where I think to myself, "WHY didnt anybody intervene??? I would have intervned, and I really think that I would". A women raped.. begging for help.. I think that happened in NYC. All sorts of horrible things where nobody helps. Heck, we have some things on video, on Youtube, I would imagine.

I just do not believe that most of us wouldve reacted any differently than those bus passengers, given the same circumstances. They were not cowards.

I will say that when I was on a plane full of mostly Asians, and I screamed bloody murder as a man scampered away, nobody, not even the flying waitresses, came to see if I was ok. I'm guessing they were Canadian now.

Jumpy
07-31-2008, 09:48 PM
I will say that when I was on a plane full of mostly Asians, and I screamed bloody murder as a man scampered away, nobody, not even the flying waitresses, came to see if I was ok. I'm guessing they were Canadian now. okay... you need to start a thread. that is funny stuff!!! or not... danged Canuckistans!!! :mad:

Phillygirl
07-31-2008, 09:56 PM
okay... you need to start a thread. that is funny stuff!!! or not... danged Canuckistans!!! :mad:

Not much more to tell of the story. The 40 minutes of sleep I got on the second leg of my 23 hour flights was interrupted by what sounded like a guillotine coming down over my head (but it was really my window shade being slammed shut by the little Chinese guy sitting across the aisle...I had my whole row to myself and was comfortably reclined). I literally screamed as I opened my eyes to the sound and saw Ho Chi Min's smaller nephew standing over me. His eyes widened (well, sort of) and he scampered away. Nobody came to ask if I was okay. I could have been dead!! Worse...I was now awake...again...going on about 32 hours of that state. About 20 minutes later, when he realized that I was still awake he said "I apologize for frightening you." Sure, Mr. Lee. Great. Did the light bother you? Cuz the whole heart restarting thing has bothered me somewhat. Damn flying waitresses. Didn't even bring me a drink.

Gingersnap
07-31-2008, 09:57 PM
Sadly, and mercifully, with all of the stabbing, He was most likely dead before the decapitation.

You are calling all the passengers on this bus, "cowards". What would you have done??

I have spent some time training myself to have some limited idea of situational awareness. A lot of people are doing the same thing. I'm no hero and I don't have the physical skills to subdue an attacker without a firearm or a baton but I can whack the son of a bitch with a bag which will instantly recruit more physically imposing people into action.

It only takes one person to initiate a huge crowd response. I don't have to end the fight, I only need to start it.

All people should spend some small amount of time visualizing what they would do in various emergency situations. This isn't paranoia, it's common sense. If you have thought through some very general responses to general situations, you will be more apt to respond in a life-saving manner.

Who knows if this guy could have pulled through with just the stabbing? Especially if the stabbing had stopped at 5 instead of 50. Would you want people to stand around slack-jawed while your kid was attacked? I wouldn't and I don't even know your kid.

One person. That's all it takes. Not a hero, not a fighter, not a saint. Just one person to break the paralysis and get things going. That's all it takes.

Jumpy
07-31-2008, 09:58 PM
Not much more to tell of the story. The 40 minutes of sleep I got on the second leg of my 23 hour flights was interrupted by what sounded like a guillotine coming down over my head (but it was really my window shade being slammed shut by the little Chinese guy sitting across the aisle...I had my whole row to myself and was comfortably reclined). I literally screamed as I opened my eyes to the sound and saw Ho Chi Min's smaller nephew standing over me. His eyes widened (well, sort of) and he scampered away. Nobody came to ask if I was okay. I could have been dead!! Worse...I was now awake...again...going on about 32 hours of that state. About 20 minutes later, when he realized that I was still awake he said "I apologize for frightening you." Sure, Mr. Lee. Great. Did the light bother you? Cuz the whole heart restarting thing has bothered me somewhat. Damn flying waitresses. Didn't even bring me a drink.ha!!!! so funny!!

Jumpy
07-31-2008, 10:02 PM
I have spent some time training myself to have some limited idea of situational awareness. A lot of people are doing the same thing. I'm no hero and I don't have the physical skills to subdue an attacker without a firearm or a baton but I can whack the son of a bitch with a bag which will instantly recruit more physically imposing people into action.

It only takes one person to initiate a huge crowd response. I don't have to end the fight, I only need to start it.

All people should spend some small amount of time visualizing what they would do in various emergency situations. This isn't paranoia, it's common sense. If you have thought through some very general responses to general situations, you will be more apt to respond in a life-saving manner.

Who knows if this guy could have pulled through with just the stabbing? Especially if the stabbing had stopped at 5 instead of 50. Would you want people to stand around slack-jawed while your kid was attacked? I wouldn't and I don't even know your kid.

One person. That's all it takes. Not a hero, not a fighter, not a saint. Just one person to break the paralysis and get things going. That's all it takes. Of course not.. response to the bolded. And I am quite sure that my motherly instinct would have me on top of the guy, pulling on his hair and biting him, with no regard for my own life if I witnessed that happening to my children. Still.. find me even one instance.. or a few, where a woman USA, or Canadian woman , jumped into a violent situation similar to this bus incident. It just does not happen. We are not trained for that. I guess everybody is a coward. Or maybe we are just normal.

Eyelids
07-31-2008, 10:07 PM
This guy was clearly maniacal, and if you went into hero mode to try and stop him there would've been a bevy of heads on the floor of that bus. No matter how "hard" or "tough" you think you are.

asdf2231
07-31-2008, 10:10 PM
This guy was clearly maniacal, and if you went into hero mode to try and stop him there would've been a bevy of heads on the floor of that bus. No matter how "hard" or "tough" you think you are.

Spoken like a typical Lib.

LibraryLady
07-31-2008, 10:14 PM
The police all felt that the passengers acted in the safest manner. I think many more people would have been killed or seriously injured if someone had tried to intervene.

megimoo
07-31-2008, 10:45 PM
I have spent some time training myself to have some limited idea of situational awareness. A lot of people are doing the same thing. I'm no hero and I don't have the physical skills to subdue an attacker without a firearm or a baton but I can whack the son of a bitch with a bag which will instantly recruit more physically imposing people into action.

It only takes one person to initiate a huge crowd response. I don't have to end the fight, I only need to start it.

All people should spend some small amount of time visualizing what they would do in various emergency situations. This isn't paranoia, it's common sense. If you have thought through some very general responses to general situations, you will be more apt to respond in a life-saving manner.

Who knows if this guy could have pulled through with just the stabbing? Especially if the stabbing had stopped at 5 instead of 50. Would you want people to stand around slack-jawed while your kid was attacked? I wouldn't and I don't even know your kid.

One person. That's all it takes. Not a hero, not a fighter, not a saint. Just one person to break the paralysis and get things going. That's all it takes.You are as usual correct.What kind of a person can just stand there and do nothing?In Philli's case the poor Chinaman probably soiled his knickers when she screamed .

megimoo
07-31-2008, 10:47 PM
Spoken like a typical Lib.You forgot the 'gutless' part !

Gingersnap
07-31-2008, 10:55 PM
Of course not.. response to the bolded. And I am quite sure that my motherly instinct would have me on top of the guy, pulling on his hair and biting him, with no regard for my own life if I witnessed that happening to my children. Still.. find me even one instance.. or a few, where a woman USA, or Canadian woman , jumped into a violent situation similar to this bus incident. It just does not happen. We are not trained for that. I guess everybody is a coward. Or maybe we are just normal.

It's not training - it's just acceptance of the problems of violence. Many, many women have responded to attacks physically and either averted violence or minimized it. You are hung on the environment - the bus. It doesn't matter what the environment is or what the sex of the responder may be.

You are looking for heroines. That's not important. We don't need role models for this type of thing. Only a willingness to break the ice, to get people moving. It's so simple really. By thinking about it for a few minutes you can determine what you might do in an emergency. When the emergency happens, your plan will go the hell but your willingness to respond won't and that's the important factor.

You don't have to solve the problem at all, you don't have to prevail by yourself - you only have to be willing to react violently. That's it. Your response will automatically entrain others who are just waiting for someone to do something.

Jumpy
07-31-2008, 10:58 PM
It's not training - it's just acceptance of the problems of violence. Many, many women have responded to attacks physically and either averted violence or minimized it. You are hung on the environment - the bus. It doesn't matter what the environment is or what the sex of the responder may be.

You are looking for heroines. That's not important. We don't need role models for this type of thing. Only a willingness to break the ice, to get people moving. It's so simple really. By thinking about it for a few minutes you can determine what you might do in an emergency. When the emergency happens, your plan will go the hell but your willingness to respond won't and that's the important factor.

You don't have to solve the problem at all, you don't have to prevail by yourself - you only have to be willing to react violently. That's it. Your response will automatically entrain others who are just waiting for someone to do something. I was responding to you calling all of the bus folks "cowards". They were normal people, no matter the nationality. And yes, I am hung up on the bus. I could not walk down an aisle, and confront a stabbing maniac. Could you? You think these Canadians reacted any differently than Americans wouldve reacted?? Simple questions. edited to add.... post links of where American women(because the women on that bus were "cowards" too ) have jumped in to save the day, with a maniacal killer on the loose.

Gingersnap
07-31-2008, 11:08 PM
I was responding to you calling all of the bus folks "cowards". They were normal people, no matter the nationality. And yes, I am hung up on the bus. I could not walk down an aisle, and confront a stabbing maniac. Could you? You think these Canadians reacted any differently than Americans wouldve reacted?? Simple questions.

Yeah, I do. Clearly, some of us have no problem confronting multiple maniacs in narrow places. We've got the 411 on that. Anybody who stands by paralyzed by embarrassment or fear of injury in an emergency is a coward of one type or another. I'm not saying it isn't common or even natural - I'm just saying that it doesn't have to be that way.

As far confronting a stabbing maniac goes - yeah, I could. I have a close grasp of physics and emergency medicine. I know that the odds of suffering a fatal wound are small in that particular environment. I might get badly hurt but I wouldn't die. Even if I might die, why wouldn't I help? Is there a better way to die than possibly saving the life of another human being? We've all got to go sometime.

Jumpy
07-31-2008, 11:13 PM
Yeah, I do. Clearly, some of us have no problem confronting multiple maniacs in narrow places. We've got the 411 on that. Anybody who stands by paralyzed by embarrassment or fear of injury in an emergency is a coward of one type or another. I'm not saying it isn't common or even natural - I'm just saying that it doesn't have to be that way.

As far confronting a stabbing maniac goes - yeah, I could. I have a close grasp of physics and emergency medicine. I know that the odds of suffering a fatal wound are small in that particular environment. I might get badly hurt but I wouldn't die. Even if I might die, why wouldn't I help? Is there a better way to die than possibly saving the life of another human being? We've all got to go sometime.
Good on you. I wonder if it has ever happened before. Hopefully you will be on a bus, or in the vicinity of any loved ones of mine, if anything goes down.

I dont really think that you can predict how you would behave though, in a terrorist type situation. You can hope that you would react appropriately, but just like that highly trained Secret Service Agent, who DUCKED when Ronald Reagan was being shot at, you really never know.

LibraryLady
07-31-2008, 11:28 PM
I doubt you could have gotten to him.


The driver, hearing the screams, pulled to the side of the road and opened the doors, allowing passengers to flee. They scrambled over one another and, in their haste, knocked an elderly woman to the floor. One mother, who was seated near the back, threw her toddler forward several rows to get the child away from danger, a witness said.

Mr. Caton, who served five years in the Canadian Forces and was closest to the attacker, paused before leaving, torn momentarily between concern for his own safety and the thought of abandoning the bleeding victim. He turned to another man nearby and asked for his help.

“I said, ‘Give me a hand and let's get this guy.' And the other guy took off,” he said.

It was only moments later that the victim's screams went silent. Mr. Caton knew he was too late.

Mr. Caton jumped off the bus, and was met by a trucker who had stopped after seeing the commotion. The trucker grabbed a crowbar and Mr. Caton got a hammer and they tried to contain the attacker on the bus. The attacker swung his knife at them through the partially closed bus door.

Then the incident became even more macabre. The attacker returned to the victim's side and began sawing through his neck. A few moments later, he walked to the front of the bus holding a decapitated human head, displaying it to the 34 passengers and the bus driver standing outside.

“I got sick after I saw the head thing,” Mr. Caton said. “Some people were puking, some people were crying, some people were shocked.”
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080731.wdeath01/BNStory/National/home


Reports from the scene indicate the man then ate pieces of the corpse.


They praised the reaction of the bus driver and passengers, which they say may have averted further injuries.

“They were very brave. They reacted swiftly and calmly in exiting the bus and as a result nobody else was injured,” Staff Sgt. Colwell said


At first, Mr. Olmstead said, he thought it was a regular fistfight. But when somebody yelled “knife,” everyone started to run.

“What can you do when a man's got a knife the size of, you know, it's a big knife. So we just tried to stay out of the way,” he said.

Gingersnap
07-31-2008, 11:33 PM
I dont really think that you can predict how you would behave though, in a terrorist type situation.

Correct. Nobody can predict that. People who practice visualization do respond more effectively than people who rely on calling 911. That's a pure fact.

Anybody can develop these responses. You may not be physically imposing or some kind of situational genius but you can practice basic mental responses to basic threat situations. This doesn't mean you are paranoid or fearful of ordinary environments. It's just a commonsense exercise that all people can do in the 5 minutes they are standing in line for something.

Take a minute to decide how you will exit a building. Look around for something that would distract an attacker. Imagine how you could use common items in your environment to your advantage. I would recommend that everybody read "The Gift of Fear" by Gavin deBecker.

This isn't hero or Rambo stuff, it's what ordinary people in ordinary environments have found effective. I may be more into this than some because of Columbine but anybody can use this kind of info. Don't live in fear but don't fear fear itself. That's dumb. ;)

Jumpy
08-01-2008, 12:25 AM
Correct. Nobody can predict that. People who practice visualization do respond more effectively than people who rely on calling 911. That's a pure fact.

Anybody can develop these responses. You may not be physically imposing or some kind of situational genius but you can practice basic mental responses to basic threat situations. This doesn't mean you are paranoid or fearful of ordinary environments. It's just a commonsense exercise that all people can do in the 5 minutes they are standing in line for something.

Take a minute to decide how you will exit a building. Look around for something that would distract an attacker. Imagine how you could use common items in your environment to your advantage. I would recommend that everybody read "The Gift of Fear" by Gavin deBecker.

This isn't hero or Rambo stuff, it's what ordinary people in ordinary environments have found effective. I may be more into this than some because of Columbine but anybody can use this kind of info. Don't live in fear but don't fear fear itself. That's dumb. ;)
Suppose they did not train to be Navy Seals.. or superheros, like you have trained to be? Are they still all cowards, in your opinion? You called these folks cowards.. I think they are survivors.. even heros, for having confined this guy to the bus, until people with guns arrived.

I do not think that one can necessarily train to react in a situation like this. Remember the SS guy ducking when REagan was being shot at?

Maybe someone couldve saved the victim.. probably not. They were groggy with sleep..

Could they have stopped the beheading, and the gutting? Yes, they probably could have.. at great risk to themself. I think the victim was dead by then... I watched the Nick Berg beheading... this young man was mercifully gone during the hacking of his body. If it was my son, at that point.. I cannot say that I would want another death over his dead body.

asdf2231
08-01-2008, 12:40 AM
Ginger has the right of this. It just takes one person to galvanize a reaction. If someone had acted it would have prompted others to get over the tipping point from "Flight" to "Fight".

I have had an absolute minimum of hand to hand training. I have scars on my left arm from an idiot with a knife from ages ago. Much faded now but still there. I lived and the guy went to jail. And I only had one other guy there backing me up, not a bus load of potential helpers. We had the option of shooting the guy or trying to take him into custody. What we did worked. He lived, we lived.

Every situation is different but she has been spot on in the points shes been making.

Eyelids
08-01-2008, 12:48 AM
Spoken like a typical Lib.

Its not my job (nor yours, unless you're a cop) to go out looking out for people's best interests in these types of situations. Learn your place asdf...

Phillygirl
08-01-2008, 06:41 AM
Its not my job (nor yours, unless you're a cop) to go out looking out for people's best interests in these types of situations. Learn your place asdf...

Who said it's not your job? Is that a union rule?

AmPat
08-01-2008, 08:07 AM
I'm sure we all would like to believe we would have saved the day. We favor a vision of us singlehandedly subduing the murderer. The real truth is we would have reacted like the random people on the bus. The reaction to this is situational. They reacted in the only way that made practical sense to them in this surreal situatiion.

I say if the Cannucks (and the rest of us) had guns, this would not happen very often. The crowded bus with a narrow aisle would have been inconsequential with a handgun and a resolved individual holding it.

Sonnabend
08-01-2008, 08:57 AM
Its not my job (nor yours, unless you're a cop) to go out looking out for people's best interests in these types of situations. Learn your place asdf...

Guy who works with one of the field agencies we use is from Texas..he had CCW. His comment was laconic.."Clear leather, aim and fire. Two to the body, one to the head. Problem solved"

And Eyecysts....as has been said by others who are far, far better men than you can ever hope to be..all it takes is just one person.

Had one person on that bus been armed..it would have been over, there and then.

But because Canada has been disarmed..all they can do is run and hide. Tell ya this, if I could talk my wife into it, I'd emigrate to the US tomorrow.

And no way in hell would I live in a "may issue"state...I'd live in an open carry or CCW state, Vermont, Nevada, Texas.

Just curious, Eyelashes...you got any guns? Ever fired one?

(Oh and to save you the trouble of asking, yes I can shoot, both long guns and sidearms.)

YupItsMe
08-01-2008, 09:04 AM
Guy who works with one of the field agencies we use is from Texas..he had CCW. His comment was laconic.."Clear leather, aim and fire. Two to the body, one to the head. Problem solved"

And Eyecysts....as has been said by others who are far, far better men than you can ever hope to be..all it takes is just one person.

Had one person on that bus been armed..it would have been over, there and then.

But because Canada has been disarmed..all they can do is run and hide. Tell ya this, if I could talk my wife into it, I'd emigrate to the US tomorrow.

And no way in hell would I live in a "may issue"state...I'd live in an open carry or CCW state, Vermont, Nevada, Texas.

Just curious, Eyelashes...you got any guns? Ever fired one?

(Oh and to save you the trouble of asking, yes I can shoot, both long guns and sidearms.)


I'd welcome you in a minute Sonna, but from your posts I don't think you'd want to move to this liberal hellhole. The only thing still right in this state is the 2nd Amendment and that's only holding on by a thread.

P.S. I think we stopped calling them long guns, sometime between Plymouth Rock and Jamestown. ;)

LibraryLady
08-01-2008, 09:04 AM
The last time I traveled by Greyhound we were "wanded."
They were also very insistent on photo ID.

Gingersnap
08-01-2008, 09:54 AM
I'm sure we all would like to believe we would have saved the day. We favor a vision of us singlehandedly subduing the murderer.

See, that's where you are completely wrong. I have no such fantasies. The last time I got into a fight was probably the 6th grade.

The point here is that in every instance where just one person broke ranks and moved, it galvanized a general (and predictable) crowd reaction against the attacker. This has absolutely nothing to do skill, experience, or talent. It's a well known, automatic reaction that happens in groups during emergency situations.

You don't have to win or even connect, you just need to move.

LibraryLady
08-01-2008, 09:59 AM
The point here is that in every instance where just one person broke ranks and moved, it galvanized a general (and predictable) crowd reaction against the attacker. This has absolutely nothing to do skill, experience, or talent. It's a well known, automatic reaction that happens in groups during emergency situations.



Not always



Mr. Caton, who served five years in the Canadian Forces and was closest to the attacker, paused before leaving, torn momentarily between concern for his own safety and the thought of abandoning the bleeding victim. He turned to another man nearby and asked for his help.

“I said, ‘Give me a hand and let's get this guy.' And the other guy took off,” he said.

It was only moments later that the victim's screams went silent. Mr. Caton knew he was too late.

Odysseus
08-01-2008, 10:23 AM
Not always

Several years ago, a good buddy of mine and I were walking in NYC when we saw, in the middle of Sixth Avenue, a man straddling a woman. He was holding her down and yelling at here. We glanced at each other and saw that we were both going into the street to help her. The only reason that we didn't pull him off of her was that several closer men got to him first and knocked him off. True, he wasn't armed, but we had no way of knowing that. Now, maybe if my friend and I hadn't seen that we had each others' backs, we might not have gone at him, but we did. Caton had the same hesitation that we did, but when the other guy's cowardice (there is no other word for it) made him pause for a critical moment, the situation was taken out of his hands. Maybe he couldn't have saved the victim, maybe he could, we'll never know. But I do know that Caton will feel guilty for not having intervened, while the guy who ran will console himself with having done the "safe" thing.

asdf2231
08-01-2008, 10:28 AM
Its not my job (nor yours, unless you're a cop) to go out looking out for people's best interests in these types of situations. Learn your place asdf...

But Liberals think it's thier place to look after EVERYONES best interests in EVERYTHING even they don't know shit.

That they choose to stand idly by when it's thier OWN ass on the line is hardly a shock.

Molon Labe
08-01-2008, 11:58 AM
Its not my job (nor yours, unless you're a cop) to go out looking out for people's best interests in these types of situations. Learn your place asdf...

That's because we're a society of spoiled little cowards that think the cops are supposed to "save us".

"We do our children a disservice to raise them to entrust all to officialdom’s security blanket"


http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=YzEzYzQ0Y2MyZjNlNjY1ZTEzMTA0MGRmM2EyMTQ0NjY=

A Culture of passivity....

By Mark Steyn

I haven’t weighed in yet on Virginia Tech — mainly because, in a saner world, it would not be the kind of incident one needed to have a partisan opinion on. But I was giving a couple of speeches in Minnesota yesterday and I was asked about it and found myself more and more disturbed by the tone of the coverage. I’m not sure I’m ready to go the full Derb but I think he’s closer to the reality of the situation than most. On Monday night, Geraldo was all over Fox News saying we have to accept that, in this horrible world we live in, our “children” need to be “protected.Point one: They’re not “children.” The students at Virginia Tech were grown women and — if you’ll forgive the expression — men. They would be regarded as adults by any other society in the history of our planet. Granted, we live in a selectively infantilized culture where twentysomethings are “children” if they’re serving in the Third Infantry Division in Ramadi but grown-ups making rational choices if they drop to the broadloom in President Clinton’s Oval Office. Nonetheless, it’s deeply damaging to portray fit fully formed adults as children who need to be protected. We should be raising them to understand that there will be moments in life when you need to protect yourself — and, in a “horrible” world, there may come moments when you have to choose between protecting yourself or others. It is a poor reflection on us that, in those first critical seconds where one has to make a decision, only an elderly Holocaust survivor, Professor Librescu, understood instinctively the obligation to act.

Point two: The cost of a “protected” society of eternal “children” is too high. Every December 6th, my own unmanned Dominion lowers its flags to half-mast and tries to saddle Canadian manhood in general with the blame for the “Montreal massacre,” the 14 female students of the Ecole ”

megimoo
08-01-2008, 12:04 PM
Beheaded Canada bus man 'named' ,Pictuire at site


Edmonton,Police have charged Vince Weiguang Li, 40 with second-degree murder.

A young man beheaded in a savage knife attack on a Canadian cross-country bus has been identified by friends as a "bubbly" 22-year-old man.
Canadian police have not yet formally confirmed the victim's identity, but friends paid tribute on Facebook and in e-mails to Canadian media.
One told broadcaster CBC that Tim McLean, the presumed victim, was loved by many and called him a "ladies man". Police have charged a 40-year-old man with second-degree murder.
Vince Weiguang Li, 40, of Edmonton, is now scheduled to appear at court in Manitoba.

Well-loved ,Newly-established Facebook groups and Tim McLean's Myspace page have filled with messages of support for the victims' family after news of the horrific killing.

His friends would like to say they miss him and he will always be in their hearts Jossie Kehler
Friend of Tim McLean

Eyewitnesses on board the bus, which was travelling through a desolate stretch of Canada's vast prairies, said the victim was stabbed 50 or 60 times by the man sitting next to him.
The attacker then severed his head with a large knife, reportedly brandishing the head to terrified passengers.
In an e-mail to the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, a friend of Tim McLean, Jossie Kehler, told of her sadness.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7537675.stm

asdf2231
08-01-2008, 06:29 PM
That's because we're a society of spoiled little cowards that think the cops are supposed to "save us".

"We do our children a disservice to raise them to entrust all to officialdom’s security blanket"


http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=YzEzYzQ0Y2MyZjNlNjY1ZTEzMTA0MGRmM2EyMTQ0NjY=

A Culture of passivity....


Amen brah.

Gingersnap
08-01-2008, 07:37 PM
"Presumed victim"? I'd say the dude was pretty much a total victim. :confused:

LibraryLady
08-01-2008, 07:39 PM
"Presumed victim"? I'd say the dude was pretty much a total victim. :confused:


I think it was because the officials hadn't confirmed the man's identity.

Troll
08-01-2008, 07:46 PM
Let this serve as a reminder to all that this is why we have a death penalty and why it is so important. "People" like this cannot be rehabilitated, reached, helped, fixed or punished. This guy just needs to evaporate in a bloody mist and save a cell for someone who committed robbery.

Gingersnap
08-01-2008, 08:06 PM
I think it was because the officials hadn't confirmed the man's identity.

I hope so! It's getting so that you can't tell what's what from the "journalists" now. I hate that Brits have gone over to "partner" instead of spouse or lover or business colleague. I have no idea of the relationships now.

hampshirebrit
08-01-2008, 08:15 PM
Let this serve as a reminder to all that this is why we have a death penalty and why it is so important. "People" like this cannot be rehabilitated, reached, helped, fixed or punished. This guy just needs to evaporate in a bloody mist and save a cell for someone who committed robbery.


I don't like the DP, but for this, for him, I'd make an exception, and for any violent murderer, come to that, like the scum who tortured and killed the French students in London last month.

This one will cop an insanity plea...you can just see it coming. Spend the rest of his life in a comfy mental ward, tv and three hots a day. The motherfucker. :mad:

megimoo
08-02-2008, 12:14 AM
I hope so! It's getting so that you can't tell what's what from the "journalists" now. I hate that Brits have gone over to "partner" instead of spouse or lover or business colleague. I have no idea of the relationships now.

Authorities have not released the victim's name but The Canadian Press said friends had identified him as Tim McLean and said he was headed to Winnipeg after working with the carnival in Edmonton.

William Caron, 23, said McLean was quiet, though he liked to socialize with friends. He was small — about 5-foot-4 and 130 pounds — and tended to stay away from a fight, Caron said.

"All the time I've known Tim, he's never been the type of guy to get into a fight with. He always kept to himself when there's strangers around," Caron said.

asdf2231
08-05-2008, 11:25 PM
It's not training - it's just acceptance of the problems of violence. Many, many women have responded to attacks physically and either averted violence or minimized it. You are hung on the environment - the bus. It doesn't matter what the environment is or what the sex of the responder may be.

You are looking for heroines. That's not important. We don't need role models for this type of thing. Only a willingness to break the ice, to get people moving. It's so simple really. By thinking about it for a few minutes you can determine what you might do in an emergency. When the emergency happens, your plan will go the hell but your willingness to respond won't and that's the important factor.

You don't have to solve the problem at all, you don't have to prevail by yourself - you only have to be willing to react violently. That's it. Your response will automatically entrain others who are just waiting for someone to do something.


THIS is what you are talking about:
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l307/asdf2231/smileys%20and%20fun/16hjcsp.gif

:D

nacho
08-06-2008, 11:34 AM
Hope that mask had some padding :)

ConJinx
08-06-2008, 11:49 AM
I could watch that all day. I did the same thing to a dude in a haunted mansion deally on Halloween. Of course, it was my B-day and I had been drinking a BIT.