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megimoo
02-25-2010, 05:49 AM
ALBANY — Angered by the defeat last year of a bill that would have allowed same-sex couples to marry, a group of well-financed gay rights advocates has started a political action committee to take aim at state senators who have opposed same-sex marriage.

In total, the political action committee, called Fight Back New York, is prepared to raise and spend in the high six figures range in the State Senate races this year, according to people involved with the committee.

Financing and organization will come, in part, from some of the most politically sophisticated and financially powerful gay rights advocates in the country. Tim Gill, a philanthropist and former software developer who has backed many gay rights initiatives nationwide, is a major player, along with some of his top associates and donors to his causes.

“Politicians who deny gays and lesbians basic equality should be thrown out of office, starting with convicted criminal Hiram Monserrate,” said Bill Smith, an adviser to the committee and deputy executive director of the Gill Action Fund, Mr. Gill’s political organization, which is based in Denver.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/25/nyregion/25gay.html?hpw
...............................

FlaGator
02-25-2010, 08:02 AM
Politicians who deny gays and lesbians basic equality should be thrown out of office, starting with convicted criminal Hiram Monserrate,” said Bill Smith

Again I ask, what basic rights that I heterosexuals have that they are being denied?

noonwitch
02-25-2010, 09:04 AM
Again I ask, what basic rights that I heterosexuals have that they are being denied?



A gay person would say that he is being denied the right to marry the person he loves and wants to make a life-long commitment to, because his partner is of the same gender.


I support gay marriage, but I don't support personal attacks on the people who oppose it. Except lacurnut, of course.

FlaGator
02-25-2010, 09:23 AM
A gay person would say that he is being denied the right to marry the person he loves and wants to make a life-long commitment to, because his partner is of the same gender.


I support gay marriage, but I don't support personal attacks on the people who oppose it. Except lacurnut, of course.

Is there a basic right to marry the person you love? If so where does that right come from?

Gingersnap
02-25-2010, 10:00 AM
Is there a basic right to marry the person you love? If so where does that right come from?

There isn't any. Marriage is a consensual contract that is recognized in law. Any 2 people (or group of people) are perfectly free to enter into a contractual agreement that covers inheritance, property rights, powers of attorney for financial matters and health issues, and other things.

What they can't do is apply for certain government benefits or pension benefits on each other's behalf.

I expect that entire issue will go away shortly as more people favor domestic partnerships that have nothing to do with sexual expression. Marriage will return to the private sphere and religiously married couples will also have to take out a domestic partnership.

megimoo
02-25-2010, 10:25 AM
There isn't any. Marriage is a consensual contract that is recognized in law. Any 2 people (or group of people) are perfectly free to enter into a contractual agreement that covers inheritance, property rights, powers of attorney for financial matters and health issues, and other things.

What they can't do is apply for certain government benefits or pension benefits on each other's behalf.

I expect that entire issue will go away shortly as more people favor domestic partnerships that have nothing to do with sexual expression. Marriage will return to the private sphere and religiously married couples will also have to take out a domestic partnership.
.................BINGO.................
"What they can't do is apply for certain government benefits or pension benefits on each other's behalf."

FlaGator
02-25-2010, 10:30 AM
There isn't any. Marriage is a consensual contract that is recognized in law. Any 2 people (or group of people) are perfectly free to enter into a contractual agreement that covers inheritance, property rights, powers of attorney for financial matters and health issues, and other things.

What they can't do is apply for certain government benefits or pension benefits on each other's behalf.

I expect that entire issue will go away shortly as more people favor domestic partnerships that have nothing to do with sexual expression. Marriage will return to the private sphere and religiously married couples will also have to take out a domestic partnership.

I make that same argument to those I know who are pro same sex marriage and they just refuse to see it this way. Because heterosexuals can get married, then they want that opportunity as well regardless of the potential establishment of a better system for all secular relationships. There seems to be a certain mind set that if all things were equal and civil unions provided the exact same benefits as a marriage does today I believe that there are still those who would feel that they are being denied something and would still push for same sex marriages.

lacarnut
02-25-2010, 10:54 AM
A gay person would say that he is being denied the right to marry the person he loves and wants to make a life-long commitment to, because his partner is of the same gender.


I support gay marriage, but I don't support personal attacks on the people who oppose it. Except lacurnut, of course.

And maybe if you EVER had sex, you would feel differently.

Marriage is between a man and a woman. Not 2 butt fucking freaks. Most people agree that abomination should not be sanctioned. Blacks by a wide margin are against homos marrying.

FlaGator
02-25-2010, 11:10 AM
Play nice children...

Gingersnap
02-25-2010, 11:41 AM
I make that same argument to those I know who are pro same sex marriage and they just refuse to see it this way. Because heterosexuals can get married, then they want that opportunity as well regardless of the potential establishment of a better system for all secular relationships. There seems to be a certain mind set that if all things were equal and civil unions provided the exact same benefits as a marriage does today I believe that there are still those who would feel that they are being denied something and would still push for same sex marriages.

You are right. It's irrational, really. I'd bet that 99% of same sex couples have no interest in the religious nature of matrimony or in the religious obligations of parents. They want to throw a party, live together, and enjoy whatever spousal benefits are offered in the workplace or through the welfare state.

I don't personally think that this situation, even for married people, will go on much longer. Spousal benefits were created to prevent women with young children from falling into poverty if a husband died suddenly (as was all too common). Today all women are expected to have the education and experience to become financially independent. Employers are looking to cut compensation costs by restricting benefits to the employee only. More and more married couples are negotiating benefits just for each individual. Increasingly, children are the financial responsibility of the biological parents, not the current spouse or shack-up lover.

noonwitch
02-25-2010, 11:46 AM
And maybe if you EVER had sex, you would feel differently.

Marriage is between a man and a woman. Not 2 butt fucking freaks. Most people agree that abomination should not be sanctioned. Blacks by a wide margin are against homos marrying.



But I haven't had sex, so that's moot.

I just don't care who people marry, who they sleep with, how they have sex, or any of that, as long as no children are involved.

What "most people say" has never been my moral compass.

lacarnut
02-25-2010, 11:50 AM
Play nice children...


I am not one to get into a discussion about religion but for the life of me I can not see how #1 that a Christian would support/approve homosexually behavior and #2 that a Christian would support gay marriage. The Bible that I have read supports this view.

lacarnut
02-25-2010, 12:31 PM
But I haven't had sex, so that's moot.

I just don't care who people marry, who they sleep with, how they have sex, or any of that, as long as no children are involved.

What "most people say" has never been my moral compass.

Maybe you just have few morals. If 2 queers can marry, why not other forms of sodomy such as bestiality or having 10 wives? Where does this sick behavior stop?

Like I said, you are on the short end of the stick regarding gay marriage. CA rejected it because blacks were overwhelmingly opposed to it. The queers want acceptance to their behavior.. The next step would be affirmative action for them. Human resources managers would be required to hire these freaks. Otherwise be faced with State and Federal suits.

FlaGator
02-25-2010, 12:32 PM
I am not one to get into a discussion about religion but for the life of me I can not see how #1 that a Christian would support/approve homosexually behavior and #2 that a Christian would support gay marriage. The Bible that I have read supports this view.

A traditional reading of the Bible is not supportive of same sex marriage but what the bible prohibits for believers does not necessarily apply to the rest of the world. However, my remark was based on the the "if you had sex comment". The Bible also tells us to be kind to one another so if you are going to apply one to and not the other?

Gingersnap
02-25-2010, 12:36 PM
I am not one to get into a discussion about religion but for the life of me I can not see how #1 that a Christian would support/approve homosexually behavior and #2 that a Christian would support gay marriage. The Bible that I have read supports this view.

Plenty of progressive Christians are all for gay marriage. Noonwitch belongs to a liberal denomination. That doesn't make her some kind of hypocrite or moral criminal.

We can disagree on this issue without kicking each other. :mad:

lacarnut
02-25-2010, 12:40 PM
A traditional reading of the Bible is not supportive of same sex marriage but what the bible prohibits for believers does not necessarily apply to the rest of the world. However, my remark was based on the the "if you had sex comment". The Bible also tells us to be kind to one another so if you are going to apply one to and not the other?

I do find that sex and marriage go hand and hand and that if you have never experienced either, your ability to have a quantitative view of traditional marriage is lacking. That was the point I was trying to make.

FlaGator
02-25-2010, 12:50 PM
I do find that sex and marriage go hand and hand and that if you have never experienced either, your ability to have a quantitative view of traditional marriage is lacking. That was the point I was trying to make.
My issue wasn't with your point. I thought your delivery could have been more curteous, that is all.

lacarnut
02-25-2010, 12:59 PM
Plenty of progressive Christians are all for gay marriage. Noonwitch belongs to a liberal denomination. That doesn't make her some kind of hypocrite or moral criminal.

We can disagree on this issue without kicking each other. :mad:

Bully for Progressives or Libertarians that are for gay marriage. I do not want to stand before God and try to explain why I supported gay marriage. If you do not think it is a sin and do not ask forgiveness, you might have to answer that question.

Look back at her first post, she was the first one to hurl an insult at me. I had not entered the conversation until AFTER that post. Someone kicks me first then I am going to kick them back.:)

wilbur
02-25-2010, 01:02 PM
Is there a basic right to marry the person you love? If so where does that right come from?

If you like to think of 'marrying the person you love' as a privilege (presumably bestowed upon us by our beneficent government) and not a right, then fine. We can think of it as a privilege.

And its a privilege that is denied for no justifiable or compelling reason to many people who desire it. And its a privilege for which there exists, compelling reasons to extend it, to include same-sex couples who desire it.

lacarnut
02-25-2010, 01:04 PM
My issue wasn't with your point. I thought your delivery could have been more curteous, that is all.

You are correct. My bull in a China closet delivery is not as diplomatic as most folks.

FlaGator
02-25-2010, 01:31 PM
If you like to think of 'marrying the person you love' as a privilege (presumably bestowed upon us by our beneficent government) and not a right, then fine. We can think of it as a privilege.

And its a privilege that is denied for no justifiable or compelling reason to many people who desire it. And its a privilege for which there exists, compelling reasons to extend it, to include same-sex couples who desire it.

Priviledges, like driving, can be regulated in any way the state sees fit to regulate them.

I believe that things should occur as Ginger has pointed out. Let civil unions be the standard for the defining of all legal relationships and let the Church perform the rite of matrimony as it's ethics allow. Do you have an issue with that?

noonwitch
02-25-2010, 01:31 PM
I do find that sex and marriage go hand and hand and that if you have never experienced either, your ability to have a quantitative view of traditional marriage is lacking. That was the point I was trying to make.



I was the product of a heterosexual marriage that ended in divorce, like the majority do, these days. My parents got divorced when I was in college, but there wasn't a whole lot about their marriage that was sacred by the time I was a teenager. It was a mutually agreeable financial arrangement that involved one party being able to sleep with whomever he wanted to as long as he kept the other one in Liz Claiborne clothes and provided college tuition money for the kids. My grandparents had a strong marriage, but that was mainly because my grandpa is a very forgiving man.


Ultimately, though, my reasons for supporting gay marriage between adults is that it's not my business. All of the gay people I know are not people who would be out there committing polygamy, they are people with long-term partners and strong commitments to each other.


I got to go. I have to get to family court (work related, obviously).

wilbur
02-25-2010, 01:49 PM
Priviledges, like driving, can be regulated in any way the state sees fit to regulate them.

I believe that things should occur as Ginger has pointed out. Let civil unions be the standard for the defining of all legal relationships and let the Church perform the rite of matrimony as it's ethics allow. Do you have an issue with that?

No, never have. Getting government out of marriage is the best solution.

FlaGator
02-25-2010, 02:16 PM
No, never have. Getting government out of marriage is the best solution.

What a beautiful day my friend. You and I have finally agreed on something. I would offer to take you out for a beer, but I don't drink...:)

wilbur
02-25-2010, 02:51 PM
What a beautiful day my friend. You and I have finally agreed on something. I would offer to take you out for a beer, but I don't drink...:)

That's ok, I'll drink yours for you.

PoliCon
02-25-2010, 03:41 PM
A gay person would say that he is being denied the right to marry the person he loves and wants to make a life-long commitment to, because his partner is of the same gender.


I support gay marriage, but I don't support personal attacks on the people who oppose it. Except lacurnut, of course.

In which state(s) is/are gay marriages illegal?

PoliCon
02-25-2010, 03:44 PM
n/m

PoliCon
02-25-2010, 03:49 PM
n/m

PoliCon
02-25-2010, 03:51 PM
If you like to think of 'marrying the person you love' as a privilege (presumably bestowed upon us by our beneficent government) and not a right, then fine. We can think of it as a privilege.

And its a privilege that is denied for no justifiable or compelling reason to many people who desire it. And its a privilege for which there exists, compelling reasons to extend it, to include same-sex couples who desire it.

Marriage is a God given right. STATE ENDORSEMENT of Marriage is a privilege.

noonwitch
02-25-2010, 04:16 PM
In which state(s) is/are gay marriages illegal?



Michigan. The voters passed a no gay marriage initiative in 2004.

PoliCon
02-25-2010, 04:20 PM
Michigan. The voters passed a no gay marriage initiative in 2004.

And now if two gay people get married they are subjected to fines and/or jail time?:confused:

noonwitch
02-26-2010, 11:26 AM
And now if two gay people get married they are subjected to fines and/or jail time?:confused:


No, but they are not legally married and claim they are with the IRS. Estates can be messy, if the couple didn't have the money to hire an experienced lawyer to write up the arrangements to make them clear for the court. In a legal marriage or civil union, it would make probate easier.

Also, if there are adopted or biological children and all parties, including a non-custodial biological parent agree on a custory arrangement prior to the partner who is the legal parent's death, it makes it more difficult for grandparents, aunts and uncles to interfere with the parent's wishes for the child and disrupt his or her life after a parent's death.

hazlnut
02-26-2010, 04:47 PM
There isn't any. Marriage is a consensual contract that is recognized in law. Any 2 people (or group of people) are perfectly free to enter into a contractual agreement that covers inheritance, property rights, powers of attorney for financial matters and health issues, and other things.

What they can't do is apply for certain government benefits or pension benefits on each other's behalf.

I expect that entire issue will go away shortly as more people favor domestic partnerships that have nothing to do with sexual expression. Marriage will return to the private sphere and religiously married couples will also have to take out a domestic partnership.
This issue is going to SCOTUS...

With two of the most experienced federal court litigators backing it...

http://prop8trialtracker.com/

PoliCon
02-26-2010, 04:58 PM
No, but they are not legally married and claim they are with the IRS. Estates can be messy, if the couple didn't have the money to hire an experienced lawyer to write up the arrangements to make them clear for the court. In a legal marriage or civil union, it would make probate easier.

Also, if there are adopted or biological children and all parties, including a non-custodial biological parent agree on a custory arrangement prior to the partner who is the legal parent's death, it makes it more difficult for grandparents, aunts and uncles to interfere with the parent's wishes for the child and disrupt his or her life after a parent's death.

Noonie - there is a difference between something not being endorsed and recognized by the state and something being illegal. This is the problem I have with people comparing gay marriage to interracial marriage. With interracial marriage there were criminal penalties if you engaged in one as was the case in Loving v Virginia. All of the other issues you mention can all be handled through proper legal documents that gay couples can obtain. I'm sure it strikes hard against some peoples sense of fairness that these 'rights' come automatically with natural marriage because it is recognized and endorsed by the state - but no one said life was fair.

PoliCon
02-26-2010, 05:01 PM
This issue is going to SCOTUS...

With two of the most experienced federal court litigators backing it...

http://prop8trialtracker.com/

That idiot they have ruling in this case is going to hurt his own cause.

http://www.theweek.com/article/index/106089/Prop_8s_gay_judge

He should have recused himself.