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View Full Version : Heroic ACLU forces Sherriff Joe to provide abortions to female inmates....



stsinner
03-02-2010, 12:10 PM
What heroes!! Not.

"...he demanded that women pay $300 a day up front in transportation and security costs. Sarah Poe, another inmate, could not afford to prepay these costs, and would have been forced to have a baby if we did not intervene. We helped secure her abortion, and we challenged the prepayment policy. We helped secure her abortion, and we challenged the prepayment policy." (http://www.aclu.org/blog/prisoners-rights-reproductive-freedom/well-be-watching-you-sheriff-arpaio)

I know that abortion is legal in America, and I'm not advocating that anyone deny this ridiculous right to women and violate the law, but something just seems unsavory about the ACLU bragging so much about helping women get these abortions without paying for them.. If you go to prison and the prison is forced to transport you somewhere under armed guard for a voluntary procedure, I think a fee is certainly in order, because you're taking officers away from the prison who will have to be back-filled by paying overtime to other officers that will have to be called in to cover..

Apache
03-02-2010, 12:31 PM
Yet again the ACLUess is on the wrong side of an issue...:rolleyes:

linda22003
03-02-2010, 12:34 PM
"Arpaio must now transport women in his facility who request an abortion, and he must transport them even if they can't afford to pay the transport costs upfront."

It's about transportation to the abortion. It's hard to get too worked up over this.

noonwitch
03-02-2010, 01:00 PM
Putting aside the issues of whether abortion is morally right, or whether a woman in jail has the right to obtain abotion services, and focusing on the costs will lead to this:

It is cheaper to pay the $300 for the abortion than it is to pay for the care of the woman's labor (provided she is still in jail 8 months down the road), and all the foster care costs that will accrue when the child is placed into foster care.

Foster care rates in Michigan for a newborn are something like $13 per diem. Michigan is not the state that pays the highest rates. If the child is placed in a private agency licensed home, the agency gets another $25-40 a day for an "administrative rate". If the child has any special needs, the foster parent gets a higher rate, which depends on the intensity of the child's needs. That could be $10-20 a day more, depending on the kid's condition and needs.

On top of all that, placing a child in foster care means taking legal action. That means the taxpayers also will be funding the fees for both the mother's and the child's lawyer, and probably one for the father. The lawyers get paid anywhere from $250-$500 a hearing, depending on what type of hearing it is (review, trial, prelim, etc.). It takes about 3 hearings to get to the 3 month review status.

So, for 6 months of foster care (180 days): $2340
Administrative rate (lowest estimate): 3600
Legal fees for 3 hearings for mother: 1000
Legal fees for father: 1000
Legal fees for child's attorney: 1000
total cost for 6 months care: $8940

I used the lowest estimates to come up with this number. I'm not counting clothing orders, any kind of special medical expenses, the cost of medicaid coverage for the child, or any extra expenses. I'm also sticking to 3 hearings, instead of the reality in a big court system that it may take several pretrials before a trial date is set, and that a trial can cover more than one day's attendance by the lawyer. They get $500 for a trial, $250 for any other type of hearing. I'm not counting the salaries of state monitors or family court judges/officials and the lawyer for CPS in the total, either, because they are not paid by the case, so it's difficult for me to come up with how much to credit in the costs per child. But overall, I think it is safe to say that six months in foster care will cost the taxpayers approximately $10,000 per child.


It might not save that much money from Sheriff Joe's jail budget, but the costs for foster care and the associated legal proceedings are mostly covered by the county and state budgets. The taxpayers are funding all of those budgets.

NJCardFan
03-02-2010, 11:54 PM
Putting aside the issues of whether abortion is morally right, or whether a woman in jail has the right to obtain abotion services, and focusing on the costs will lead to this:

It is cheaper to pay the $300 for the abortion than it is to pay for the care of the woman's labor (provided she is still in jail 8 months down the road), and all the foster care costs that will accrue when the child is placed into foster care.

Foster care rates in Michigan for a newborn are something like $13 per diem. Michigan is not the state that pays the highest rates. If the child is placed in a private agency licensed home, the agency gets another $25-40 a day for an "administrative rate". If the child has any special needs, the foster parent gets a higher rate, which depends on the intensity of the child's needs. That could be $10-20 a day more, depending on the kid's condition and needs.

On top of all that, placing a child in foster care means taking legal action. That means the taxpayers also will be funding the fees for both the mother's and the child's lawyer, and probably one for the father. The lawyers get paid anywhere from $250-$500 a hearing, depending on what type of hearing it is (review, trial, prelim, etc.). It takes about 3 hearings to get to the 3 month review status.

So, for 6 months of foster care (180 days): $2340
Administrative rate (lowest estimate): 3600
Legal fees for 3 hearings for mother: 1000
Legal fees for father: 1000
Legal fees for child's attorney: 1000
total cost for 6 months care: $8940

I used the lowest estimates to come up with this number. I'm not counting clothing orders, any kind of special medical expenses, the cost of medicaid coverage for the child, or any extra expenses. I'm also sticking to 3 hearings, instead of the reality in a big court system that it may take several pretrials before a trial date is set, and that a trial can cover more than one day's attendance by the lawyer. They get $500 for a trial, $250 for any other type of hearing. I'm not counting the salaries of state monitors or family court judges/officials and the lawyer for CPS in the total, either, because they are not paid by the case, so it's difficult for me to come up with how much to credit in the costs per child. But overall, I think it is safe to say that six months in foster care will cost the taxpayers approximately $10,000 per child.


It might not save that much money from Sheriff Joe's jail budget, but the costs for foster care and the associated legal proceedings are mostly covered by the county and state budgets. The taxpayers are funding all of those budgets.

Tell that to the child getting slaughtered. Nice to see you can put a price on a human life.

stsinner
03-03-2010, 08:31 AM
If you're in prison and you're pregnant, how about instead of aborting the baby the women are forced to give them up for adoption? We can either facilitate killing a baby, or we can give a baby to a family that has a barren partner and would love to have a baby.. You give up certain rights when you go to prison, so how about making murder one of those rights...

noonwitch
03-03-2010, 10:03 AM
Tell that to the child getting slaughtered. Nice to see you can put a price on a human life.


I wasn't making an argument about the morality of abortion, I was just pointing out that foster care for 6 months costs the taxpayers a lot more than whatever it cost the taxpayers for Sheriff Joe's people to transport the mother to the clinic. I'm fairly sure that the Arizona state government doesn't fund abortions, so I assume either the inmate/her family or the clinic covered that $300 expense.


No one can put a price tag on actual life, but one can be put on foster care.

Sonnabend
03-04-2010, 04:16 AM
If you're in prison and you're pregnant, how about instead of aborting the baby the women are forced to give them up for adoption? You give up certain rights when you go to prison, so how about making murder one of those rights...So being pregnant when in jail for say...a three month jail term.... means that one of the penalties of a minor term of incarceration is to give up your child for the rest of your life to the State?

As an alternative to abortion?

You want less Government intrusion onto private affairs...yet at the same time you literally DEMAND the Government abridge the rights to privacy of a private organisation simply because they wont tell you what they are talking about?

Do you even believe in a right to privacy?

You seem very intent on the State tearing a child from its mother FOREVER on the spurious excuse that she is in jail and therefore has no rights whatsoever?


If you're in prison and you're pregnant, how about instead of aborting the baby the women are forced to give them up for adoption

I just had this wonderful mental image of a child taken from its mother AT GUNPOINT by the State.

Conservative?

You?

No fucking way.

stsinner
03-04-2010, 06:33 AM
I just had this wonderful mental image of a child taken from its mother AT GUNPOINT by the State.

Conservative?

You?

No fucking way.



I had a wonderful image of, instead of taking the baby from the mother at gunpoint once it's born, doctors sticking pliers up inside her and crushing the baby's skull, then throwing it in the trash bin....


Fuck you, you prick. Stop with your retarded scenarios... No abortions for prisoners... I'm with Sheriff Joe.

Of course things would be different for short-term prison sentences..

NJCardFan
03-04-2010, 06:42 AM
I wasn't making an argument about the morality of abortion, I was just pointing out that foster care for 6 months costs the taxpayers a lot more than whatever it cost the taxpayers for Sheriff Joe's people to transport the mother to the clinic. I'm fairly sure that the Arizona state government doesn't fund abortions, so I assume either the inmate/her family or the clinic covered that $300 expense.


No one can put a price tag on actual life, but one can be put on foster care.
I'm willing to bet the state does. The state pays for sex change treatments so it's safe to assume that they would cover this as well.

Sonnabend
03-04-2010, 08:15 AM
Fuck you, you prick. Stop with your retarded scenarios... No abortions for prisoners... I'm with Sheriff Joe.

Of course things would be different for short-term prison sentences..
If you're in prison and you're pregnant, how about instead of aborting the baby the women are forced to give them up for adoptionRetarded scenarios?

Those are your EXACT words, JACKASS.

Short term or long term makes no difference. The woman has the child, Ol' hero Joe tells her to hand over the baby and she says NO. Mind you, he'd get one of his goons to do it.

What ya gonna do, sunshine?

You have the options

1. Point a gun at her. If she resists....what then?. She fights and the gun goes off?

Bang.

Dead or injured mother and / or baby? Or both?

2. FORCIBLY remove the child from her arms and injure / kill her or the child in the process?

3, Assault her with an injection and grab the baby before (you hope) it hits the floor. Not that you'd give a rats ass if they screw it up with the injection, and the mother dies

4. Take the child when she is away or sleeping.

I dont know what fucking rock you crawled out from under, but what you are describing is not only against all human nature and basic human rights. either way it's KIDNAPPING, and a violation of both national and international law.

And your own Constitution.

PRISONERS HAVE RIGHTS.

noonwitch
03-04-2010, 08:29 AM
I'm willing to bet the state does. The state pays for sex change treatments so it's safe to assume that they would cover this as well.



There's only a handful of states where medicaid covers abortion. Michigan was one of them until a voter's initiative in 1990 banned it. I think only die-hard liberal states like MA and MN allow medicaid to pay for abortions.

stsinner
03-04-2010, 08:01 PM
Retarded scenarios?

Those are your EXACT words, JACKASS.

Short term or long term makes no difference. The woman has the child, Ol' hero Joe tells her to hand over the baby and she says NO. Mind you, he'd get one of his goons to do it.

What ya gonna do, sunshine?

You have the options

1. Point a gun at her. If she resists....what then?. She fights and the gun goes off?

Bang.

Dead or injured mother and / or baby? Or both?

2. FORCIBLY remove the child from her arms and injure / kill her or the child in the process?

3, Assault her with an injection and grab the baby before (you hope) it hits the floor. Not that you'd give a rats ass if they screw it up with the injection, and the mother dies

4. Take the child when she is away or sleeping.

I dont know what fucking rock you crawled out from under, but what you are describing is not only against all human nature and basic human rights. either way it's KIDNAPPING, and a violation of both national and international law.

And your own Constitution.

PRISONERS HAVE RIGHTS.


Yeah, you've made abundantly clear how you side with the prisoners.. I think prisoners have FAR too many rights.. I think prisoners should live just as Sheriff Joe has them live-in tents with no TV... But I'd have them working sun-up to sun-down and make prison a place they DREAD going back to.. Prisons today are like Club Med... It's supposed to be miserable, not just a little time away from society...

I have one word for you when trying to get the baby and put it up for adoption-tazer.....

If a woman in prison wants an abortion, I'd mandate adoption over murder.. Sorry, felon-lover... You give up certain rights when you go to jail, and I'd make murder one of those rights...

Sonnabend
03-05-2010, 02:52 AM
Yeah, you've made abundantly clear how you side with the prisoners.. I think prisoners have FAR too many rights.....and just which ones would you like them to lose, pray tell?


I think prisoners should live just as Sheriff Joe has them live-in tents with no TV... But I'd have them working sun-up to sun-down and make prison a place they DREAD going back to.. Prisons today are like Club Med... It's supposed to be miserable, not just a little time away from society... It isn't a place that belongs in the third century either.


I have one word for you when trying to get the baby and put it up for adoption-tazer.....

Oh what a lovely headline that would make

"Prisoner tasered repeatedly whilst baby forcibly ripped from her arms".

and I have two for you

DUE PROCESS.

Prison reform and prisoners rights are in keeping with your own Constitution, especially the part about due process. Whether you like it or not, there are universally accepted rights and standards for incarcerated prisoners..unless you'd like to go back to the "good old days" when prisoners were used as beasts of burder, forced to fight to the death like gladiators, beaten, starved, tortured..?

Hm?

Rule of law..not barbarity. Are you then happy for the guards and staff to be as brutal and as callous as the people they are supposed to guard?

What rights would you like them to lose? Right to appeal? Legal representation?

Please, enlighten me.


If a woman in prison wants an abortion, I'd mandate adoption over murder.. Sorry, felon-lover... You give up certain rights when you go to jail, and I'd make murder one of those rights...So I am a "felon lover" for insisting that prisoners be treated as human beings.

Got it.

Sonnabend
03-05-2010, 03:34 AM
1. Prisoner freed on appeal after it is proven they were framed. How do you plan on giving the baby back to its parents when the adoptive ones either wont give it up or run and hide the baby? Care to explain just HOW you will deal with this?

2. Prisoner freed after fresh testimony proves they were innocent all along. If I were the officer that tased her, i would get down on my knees and pray because the shitstorm that is about to hit them face first will be a DOOZIE..and as the State gave the orders...guess who pays for this fuckup?

YOU DO. The taxpayer.

(As an addendum to the 43 million (and counting) Arpaio has cost them so far)

3. Prisoners family demand access. Care to tell them why you will deny them this? The mother demands to see her child. Care top tell me just how you will deny this..that is unless you plan on denying them access to legal representation.....

Oops..another court case is coming...

4. Prisoner dies after being tased. Wrongful death / manslaughter charge on its way......and all the while, the Press will have a field day...especially when the part about due process being denied is brought up...

5. Prisoner is released and demands the child be returned, The fact an unarmed woman who just gave birth was tased in order to take the child will make a WONDERFUL story.

Care to tell me how this will NOT make international headlines?

Y'see, stsinner..what I am getting at is this.

You complain that inmates have "too many rights"....and there's a term for the situation where a person is held imprisoned, with no rights, no freedoms, no access to the outside world, no access to legal assistance, where they have become, as it would seem you wish them to be...the property of the State.

If, by insisting that prisoners be given certain basic rights, proper medical care, be treated as human beings instead of animals, be kept in clean, tidy accommodation, their safety as much as can be possible guarded....that makes me a "felon lover"..I choose civilisation over barbarism any day of the week.

My way at least encapsulates the rule of law.

Not indentured slavery.

So, yeah, what rights would you like them to lose?

linda22003
03-05-2010, 11:09 AM
1. Prisoner freed on appeal after it is proven they were framed. How do you plan on giving the baby back to its parents when the adoptive ones either wont give it up or run and hide the baby? Care to explain just HOW you will deal with this?

2. Prisoner freed after fresh testimony proves they were innocent all along. If I were the officer that tased her, i would get down on my knees and pray because the shitstorm that is about to hit them face first will be a DOOZIE..and as the State gave the orders...guess who pays for this fuckup?



Silly Sonna. Innocent people never get arrested. :D