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stsinner
03-02-2010, 10:16 PM
I can't understand, other than the Liberal PC bullshit mindset, why we give a shit about rebuilding Haiti... It's infuriating!!! Haiti has always and will always be nothing more than a charity case.. They will never contribute anything to the world, and they will never repay any of the aid given them by us and other developed nations.. Our government should only spend our money on interests that will benefit America in some way, and propping Haiti absolutely will not... It was a shit hole before the disaster, and it will be a shit hole long after, no matter how many millions we sink into that cess pool because you can't escape culture... We should stop wasting money on this disaster beyond a firm time-table of basic humanitarian aid... After that, they should be on their own..

Rockntractor
03-02-2010, 10:23 PM
Just to make you feel a little better, every dime we send them is borrowed with interest and will be repaid by your children and their children!

FlaGator
03-02-2010, 10:27 PM
I can't understand, other than the Liberal PC bullshit mindset, why we give a shit about rebuilding Haiti... It's infuriating!!! Haiti has always and will always be nothing more than a charity case.. They will never contribute anything to the world, and they will never repay any of the aid given them by us and other developed nations.. Our government should only spend our money on interests that will benefit America in some way, and propping Haiti absolutely will not... It was a shit hole before the disaster, and it will be a shit hole long after, no matter how many millions we sink into that cess pool because you can't escape culture... We should stop wasting money on this disaster beyond a firm time-table of basic humanitarian aid... After that, they should be on their own..

You really should drop the 'st' and the beginning of your screen name.

stsinner
03-02-2010, 10:31 PM
You really should drop the 'st' and the beginning of your screen name.

Excellent disputation of my facts.. . Once again.. Not surprising... Do you really think our Founding Fathers would have been so into charity work if they had needs that weren't met? Remember, bleeding heart, that they were of the mindset of, "If you don't work, you don't eat.."

Too many people riding on the wagon vs. people pushing the wagon to greener pastures.. When early settlers decided to go West for new lands, you helped push or pull the wagon.. Under only sever circumstances did you ever ride on the wagon being pulled by the group.. Today, there are more unsavory, perfectly viable workers riding on the wagon... Haiti, for one...

stsinner
03-02-2010, 10:33 PM
Just to make you feel a little better, every dime we send them is borrowed with interest and will be repaid by your children and their children!

I feel you, Rock, and as I looked into the eyes of my 3 mo. old daughter today when I was feeding her her mother's booby juice, I got that profound feeling!!!! Why do we care for others before ourselves!!!??? I just don't get it.. Haiti can't even be a s tragic partner.. They have absolutely NOTHING to offer.. Why do we care??? We are BROKE!!!!!!!! Even at home we are broke, so how do we have the money to give these heathens????

Rockntractor
03-02-2010, 10:54 PM
You really should drop the 'st' and the beginning of your screen name.
He is right on this one Flagator. It is good to give of your own money for the needy. it is even good for a country to give of its wealth to help another, but to borrow money so that future generations will become enslaved to pay it back is wrong. And it's all done in public to show the world how benevolent we are. It is easy to be benevolent with money that does not belong to you.

SaintLouieWoman
03-02-2010, 11:20 PM
He is right on this one Flagator. It is good to give of your own money for the needy. it is even good for a country to give of its wealth to help another, but to borrow money so that future generations will become enslaved to pay it back is wrong. And it's all done in public to show the world how benevolent we are. It is easy to be benevolent with money that does not belong to you.

I object to the lack of due diligence as to where this money is going. The officials dummied up the figures on the number of people killed and have just viewed it as an opportunity to suck more money from everyone. Of course, they needed humanitarian aid. The people in the devestated areas needed medical care, rescue, food. But look at how they absolutely stole everything. It's a problem delivering the food to the people who need it without it being stolen by bandits.

Locally they've been showing pictures of bridges that have 2 of the 4 lanes closed, due to poor infrastructure. Concrete has fallen on cars parked under main highways, near Busch Stadium. Our country is falling apart, literally.

FlaGator
03-03-2010, 08:10 AM
I feel you, Rock, and as I looked into the eyes of my 3 mo. old daughter today when I was feeding her her mother's booby juice, I got that profound feeling!!!! Why do we care for others before ourselves!!!??? I just don't get it.. Haiti can't even be a s tragic partner.. They have absolutely NOTHING to offer.. Why do we care??? We are BROKE!!!!!!!! Even at home we are broke, so how do we have the money to give these heathens????

You are entitled to your opinion as I am to my. But it is really enlightening to see that you believe in tit for tat. Since they have nothing to offer they are worthless humans? Is that how you define who should receive help and who shouldn't? Mercy and kindness does exist in your world view? That is fine my friend but trust me one, someday you will need mercy and kindness and when you do I hope that you don't meet someone like yourself.

As you know I try to base my views on what Jesus taught. To please him and to do my best to behave as he would have me is my ownly concern. He did not ask me to show mercy and kindness only to those who deserve it, only to those who in some way could do something to pay me back. I also work from the view that God is in control of everything and if money is being spent on Haiti then that is the Lord's will on the matter and who am I to tell Him what He should do?

stsinner
03-03-2010, 08:11 AM
Too often our elected leaders are giving our money away to nations that will n ever, could never pay it back.. There is nothing at all that will ever be profitable about Haiti, yet Colin Powell says we need to rebuild it better than it was before... WHY!!?"?? They didn't build it better in the first place, so why should be build their country for them better than it was before???

It's no different than if you owned a restaurant and you had customers that were hungry but had no money.. Sure, it would feel good to give them a meal and satisfy their hunger, but if you continued to do that you'd be out of business.. It's time America started giving money only when there is the possibility of a return on investment.. We may owe China a lot of money, but if we ever demanded repayment for our philanthropy around the world and the countries actually ponied up, we'd be a rich nation...

stsinner
03-03-2010, 08:26 AM
You are entitled to your opinion as I am to my. But it is really enlightening to see that you believe in tit for tat. Since they have nothing to offer they are worthless humans? Is that how you define who should receive help and who shouldn't? Mercy and kindness does exist in your world view? That is fine my friend but trust me one, someday you will need mercy and kindness and when you do I hope that you don't meet someone like yourself.

As you know I try to base my views on what Jesus taught. To please him and to do my best to behave as he would have me is my ownly concern. He did not ask me to show mercy and kindness only to those who deserve it, only to those who in some way could do something to pay me back. I also work from the view that God is in control of everything and if money is being spent on Haiti then that is the Lord's will on the matter and who am I to tell Him what He should do?

Oh, don't act like I have no compassion.. Mercy and kindness is one thing, but you don't give money to people who will spend it irresponsibly and at the peril of your own country.. I know that Haiti isn't going to be the end of America, but it sure as hell is contributing.. We don't have the money we're sending there-we're borrowing every dime we spend any more, and it's time we stopped the philanthropy for a while and built ourselves back up so that we're better able to help..

The best gift we could give the world would be to get our country healthy again so that we can continue to give to the needy nations around the world, but we're sick now, and we're in no position to keep showering the world with free money that will never be paid back...

My favorite inspirational speaker, Jim Rohn, said it beautifully.. When it comes to helping others-your friends, your spouse, etc, he is of the philosophy, "I will take care of me for you if you will take care of you for me" ...

linda22003
03-03-2010, 08:32 AM
StSinner's entitled to his opinion, and I give him props for sticking up for it. Still, I'm often reminded on these boards that these are not people I know personally or have in my "real life", and sometimes I am very, very glad of that.

FlaGator
03-03-2010, 08:38 AM
Oh, don't act like I have no compassion.. Mercy and kindness is one thing, but you don't give money to people who will spend it irresponsibly and at the peril of your own country.. I know that Haiti isn't going to be the end of America, but it sure as hell is contributing.. We don't have the money we're sending there-we're borrowing every dime we spend any more, and it's time we stopped the philanthropy for a while and built ourselves back up so that we're better able to help..

The best gift we could give the world would be to get our country healthy again so that we can continue to give to the needy nations around the world, but we're sick now, and we're in no position to keep showering the world with free money that will never be paid back...

My favorite inspirational speaker, Jim Rohn, said it beautifully.. When it comes to helping others-your friends, your spouse, etc, he is of the philosophy, "I will take care of me for you if you will take care of you for me" ...

To be honest here... I don't know you and I don't know your levels of mercy and compassion, I can only make judgments based on your posts. The problem with Rohn and the statement you quoted is that it is Biblically unsound. Mercy is not something you earn by helping someone out. What makes 'mercy' mercy is that it is unearned and the person is not deserving. If a person could deserve mercy then mercy would be justice.

You may not like my opinions but I don't think that you can condemn me because of their source. My compassion for victims of disaster is heart felt. They did not do anything to cause the Earthquake so I believe it is a moral and ethical imparitive to help them. By that same token, I believe that the welfare system in America should be greatly curtailed and used only to help those who are either totally incapable of taking care of themselves or those who need temporary assistance. To me getting someone off the government teat and back to work is the merciful and kind thing to do. In the case of Haiti, once the sick and injuried are taking care of and the private organizations have the food supple lines up and running then then the U.S. should back out.

FlaGator
03-03-2010, 08:42 AM
StSinner's entitled to his opinion, and I give him props for sticking up for it. Still, I'm often reminded on these boards that these are not people I know personally or have in my "real life", and sometimes I am very, very glad of that.

I agree and I also enjoy the fact that he stands by his beliefs. It is refreshing in a world where a lot of people go along to get along. I may not agree with him but that is why God made of different. Besides the opportunity to share opinions allows him to walk in my shoes for a bit (if he chooses to) and for me to walk in his. Besides, as Jack Handy said "Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you do criticize them you're a mile away and you have their shoes..." :D

noonwitch
03-03-2010, 08:50 AM
Too often our elected leaders are giving our money away to nations that will n ever, could never pay it back.. There is nothing at all that will ever be profitable about Haiti, yet Colin Powell says we need to rebuild it better than it was before... WHY!!?"?? They didn't build it better in the first place, so why should be build their country for them better than it was before???

It's no different than if you owned a restaurant and you had customers that were hungry but had no money.. Sure, it would feel good to give them a meal and satisfy their hunger, but if you continued to do that you'd be out of business.. It's time America started giving money only when there is the possibility of a return on investment.. We may owe China a lot of money, but if we ever demanded repayment for our philanthropy around the world and the countries actually ponied up, we'd be a rich nation...



There are a whole lot of christian and jewish restaurant owners who feel differently than you do. I know of several restaurants that have allowed poor and hungry people to eat for free. The belief is that if they give to others, their business will ultimately thrive for their generousity.


You're right about the nations that owe us money-those that have been successful should repay their debts to the US and then we'd have more money. Or at least pay us in oil, if it's a country with that resource!

stsinner
03-03-2010, 09:00 AM
You may not like my opinions but I don't think that you can condemn me because of their source.

Just to be clear, I never condemned you.. And I wholeheartedly agree with your position on welfare! Unfortunately, the Liberal mind doesn't see making someone self-sufficient as a success.. They see making people dependent on government as a success...

Republicans-Come to me, and I'll teach you how to fish so that you can feed yourself.

Liberals-Come to me, and I'll give you a fish.

stsinner
03-03-2010, 09:04 AM
There are a whole lot of christian and jewish restaurant owners who feel differently than you do.

I don't doubt that a lot of restaurant owners feel this way, but feelings don't fill the till.. You can give a little bit, but money and bills are very unforgiving, and feelings will put you out of business.. I can remember when I was younger and in the Army and broke having friends that owned businesses.. One friend owned a window tinting business.. I asked him how much to tint my windows, and he quoted me $120.. I immediately thought, "What the hell-we're friends!!! I was expecting a deal.." But then I quickly realized that tinting was my friend's livelihood-it was how he fed his family... I was not entitled to a deal just because we were friends.. I put my FEELINGS aside and paid my friend an honest wage for his honest work..

Feelings and compassion will break the bank... I know all about the biblical sayings about getting back in spades what you give to charity, etc., but for America as a financial entity, it's not panning out, and it's time to stop the giving for a while and heal our nation..

Rockntractor
03-03-2010, 09:32 AM
You are entitled to your opinion as I am to my. But it is really enlightening to see that you believe in tit for tat. Since they have nothing to offer they are worthless humans? Is that how you define who should receive help and who shouldn't? Mercy and kindness does exist in your world view? That is fine my friend but trust me one, someday you will need mercy and kindness and when you do I hope that you don't meet someone like yourself.

As you know I try to base my views on what Jesus taught. To please him and to do my best to behave as he would have me is my ownly concern. He did not ask me to show mercy and kindness only to those who deserve it, only to those who in some way could do something to pay me back. I also work from the view that God is in control of everything and if money is being spent on Haiti then that is the Lord's will on the matter and who am I to tell Him what He should do?
You have not addressed the question of the thread. I can only assume you condone theft and slavery if the money is given to a good cause. Am I to believe that I could break into your house take what you have and if I give it to needy individuals it is perfectly acceptable? With that in mind the thief would be the good guy and you would be bad for protesting.

FlaGator
03-03-2010, 09:39 AM
You have not addressed the question of the thread. I can only assume you condone theft and slavery if the money is given to a good cause. Am I to believe that I could break into your house take what you have and if I give it to needy individuals it is perfectly acceptable? With that in mind the thief would be the good guy and you would be bad for protesting.

In answer I will point you to a Bible verse that articulate_ape used a few weeks back, Ecclesiastes 11:1

Your analogy does not fit the situation. No stolen money is used. You have rendered unto Cesaer what is Cesaer's and he has used the money as he sees fit. Cesaer didn't break in to my home and take it.

Rockntractor
03-03-2010, 09:53 AM
In answer I will point you to a Bible verse that articulate_ape used a few weeks back, Ecclesiastes 11:1

Your analogy does not fit the situation. No stolen money is used. You have rendered unto Cesaer what is Cesaer's and he has used the money as he sees fit. Cesaer didn't break in to my home and take it.
The government is in debt 12 trillion dollars, all money given to Haiti has to be borrowed with interest. It is a mathematical impossibility to pay this off during our generation, yet you condone borrowing more and sending it to another nation knowing future generations will have to repay this with their blood and sweat.
Once again with your line of reasoning. if you knew your finances were close to collapsing, would you open a credit card account and charge 10000.00 knowing full well you could not pay it back and give the money to the poor.
With our form of government, we are Caesar and are responsible for what we do to future generations!

Rebel Yell
03-03-2010, 10:04 AM
I hate to straddle the fencehere, but here it goes.

FlaGator is correct, the Christian thing is to help these people get back on their feet.

StSinner is right, we don't have the money to do it.

Charity is a good thing, but if you're borrowing the money to give to that charity, then you're an idiot. I bet if those restaraunts were losing money, they would have to stop the handouts.

Rockntractor
03-03-2010, 10:07 AM
I hate to straddle the fencehere, but here it goes.

FlaGator is correct, the Christian thing is to help these people get back on their feet.

StSinner is right, we don't have the money to do it.

Charity is a good thing, but if you're borrowing the money to give to that charity, then you're an idiot. I bet if those restaraunts were losing money, they would have to stop the handouts.
Private money should be given to them right now, that is the Christian thing to do. Our government has no money to give and no right to saddle future generations with more debt.

Gingersnap
03-03-2010, 10:08 AM
This isn't a zero-sum game, guys. "We" give money and aid to countries like Haiti because we can - they are our neighbors in this hemisphere and "we" hope that one day they will become a real democracy. As Americans, we have a long, long history of showing favor to nascent democracies.

If we didn't assist Haiti, your county road wouldn't get patched and paved any sooner. None of that money would be going for nuclear power plants, bridges, or moon shots. It wouldn't fund a cure for cancer and it wouldn't stop your local public school teachers from begging for crayons and Kleenex after you've already bought $75 bucks worth of school supplies for your kid.

You may believe that charity begins at home (and I won't fault you for that) but helping Haiti isn't taking the government cheese out of anybody's mouth.

linda22003
03-03-2010, 10:11 AM
Good for you, Ginger. There will be rejoinders, I'm sure, but not before they take a long break to look up what "nascent" means. :cool:

FlaGator
03-03-2010, 10:12 AM
I hate to straddle the fencehere, but here it goes.

FlaGator is correct, the Christian thing is to help these people get back on their feet.

StSinner is right, we don't have the money to do it.

Charity is a good thing, but if you're borrowing the money to give to that charity, then you're an idiot. I bet if those restaraunts were losing money, they would have to stop the handouts.

I happen to be of two minds on this and your reflected my inner struggles nicely. Part of me feels a great deal like stsinner and the other part wants to do what is right by my beliefs. What it came down to was this, whether the Government should or shouldn't have used the money, they did. All that I could do was find the silver lining which was that the money was being spent to help people.

stsinner
03-03-2010, 10:15 AM
This isn't a zero-sum game, guys. "We" give money and aid to countries like Haiti because we can - they are our neighbors in this hemisphere and "we" hope that one day they will become a real democracy. As Americans, we have a long, long history of showing favor to nascent democracies.

If we didn't assist Haiti, your county road wouldn't get patched and paved any sooner. None of that money would be going for nuclear power plants, bridges, or moon shots. It wouldn't fund a cure for cancer and it wouldn't stop your local public school teachers from begging for crayons and Kleenex after you've already bought $75 bucks worth of school supplies for your kid.

You may believe that charity begins at home (and I won't fault you for that) but helping Haiti isn't taking the government cheese out of anybody's mouth.

Okay, how about this-who cares if they become a democracy? They are, and likely always will be, a third world country. Even a democratic Haiti would not be financially viable, and they will likely never be a threat to us with no money, so why saddle my children and grandchildren with debt when it really doesn't matter to America the status of Haiti's political system? Making countries who hate us and want us dead into democracies is one thing, but Haiti is neither, nor does it appear that it will ever be a viable trading partner, strategic partner or anything else worth sinking money into aside from the humanitarian aspect of it, and we simply can't afford to do that any more.. You say that our roads won't get patched any faster, well, maybe that's the next step-to demand accountability for where our tax dollars are going!! We could lay off 80% of government workers tomorrow, and we wouldn't even know they were gone... The government is so bloated and inefficient that something really has to be done..

Rockntractor
03-03-2010, 10:16 AM
Good for you, Ginger. There will be rejoinders, I'm sure, but not before they take a long break to look up what "nascent" means. :cool:
I'm curious what you think on this subject. I know your skills in logic are at least equal to your knowledge of grammar.

FlaGator
03-03-2010, 10:17 AM
Okay, how about this-who cares if they become a democracy? They are, and likely always will be, a third world country. Even a democratic Haiti would not be financially viable, and they will likely never be a threat to us with no money, so why saddle my children and grandchildren with debt when it really doesn't matter to America the status of Haiti's political system? Making countries who hate us and want us dead into democracies is one thing, but Haiti is neither, nor does it appear that it will ever be a viable trading partner, strategic partner or anything else worth sinking money into aside from the humanitarian aspect of it, and we simply can't afford to do that any more.. You say that our roads won't get patched any faster, well, maybe that's the next step-to demand accountability for where our tax dollars are going!! We could lay off 80% of government workers tomorrow, and we wouldn't even know they were gone... The government is so bloated and inefficient that something really has to be done..

Yes... but do you know what nascent means? :D

Rockntractor
03-03-2010, 10:18 AM
Okay, how about this-who cares if they become a democracy? They are, and likely always will be, a third world country. Even a democratic Haiti would not be financially viable, and they will likely never be a threat to us with no money, so why saddle my children and grandchildren with debt when it really doesn't matter to America the status of Haiti's political system? Making countries who hate us and want us dead into democracies is one thing, but Haiti is neither, nor does it appear that it will ever be a viable trading partner, strategic partner or anything else worth sinking money into aside from the humanitarian aspect of it, and we simply can't afford to do that any more.. You say that our roads won't get patched any faster, well, maybe that's the next step-to demand accountability for where our tax dollars are going!! We could lay off 80% of government workers tomorrow, and we wouldn't even know they were gone... The government is so bloated and inefficient that something really has to be done..

Hang it up Stsinner. I have learned here today that it is all just numbers on paper and not real money.

FlaGator
03-03-2010, 10:19 AM
Hang it up Stsinner. I have learned here today that it is all just numbers on paper and not real money.

And for that matter I believe that reality is an illusion anyways.;)

stsinner
03-03-2010, 10:19 AM
I happen to be of two minds on this and your reflected my inner struggles nicely. Part of me feels a great deal like stsinner and the other part wants to do what is right by my beliefs. What it came down to was this, whether the Government should or shouldn't have used the money, they did. All that I could do was find the silver lining which was that the money was being spent to help people.

That's a very defeated attitude.. I respect your humanitarian spirit, but, as I said, good intentions don't fill the till, and we're going to give and give until we have no fuel for our ships and planes and no money for rockets and no money for the defense of our country. We'll be so broke, like Russia was when their sub sank and they didn't have the money for a rescue mission, and all the good intentions in the world won't stop other countries from trying to take us down. We are the most powerful country in the world right now, but there is a lot of seething hatred out there from some nations because of our dominance, and we'd better be careful, lest we summon the vultures to pick us clean...

Rebel Yell
03-03-2010, 10:22 AM
I'm curious what you think on this subject. I know your skills in logic are at least equal to your knowledge of grammar.

Nothing is equal to her knowledge of grammar.;)

FlaGator
03-03-2010, 10:27 AM
That's a very defeated attitude.. I respect your humanitarian spirit, but, as I said, good intentions don't fill the till, and we're going to give and give until we have no fuel for our ships and planes and no money for rockets and no money for the defense of our country. We'll be so broke, like Russia was when their sub sank and they didn't have the money for a rescue mission, and all the good intentions in the world won't stop other countries from trying to take us down. We are the most powerful country in the world right now, but there is a lot of seething hatred out there from some nations because of our dominance, and we'd better be careful, lest we summon the vultures to pick us clean...

Well I guess we could let the Russians and Chinese take care of them and then in a few years have a few nukes parked there.

So how are you going to get our money back?

Rockntractor
03-03-2010, 10:35 AM
Well I guess we could let the Russians and Chinese take care of them and then in a few years have a few nukes parked there.

So how are you going to get our money back?

We don't allow them to park nukes in Cuba and we didn't fund their government.

linda22003
03-03-2010, 10:37 AM
I'm curious what you think on this subject. I know your skills in logic are at least equal to your knowledge of grammar.

I think I want my country to act morally; the pledge from the US government at the time of the earthquake was $100 million, although it has spent rather more than that already. Still, we're talking about a finite, realistic amount of money, not the billions and trillions spent in the bailouts.

Haiti has been the sad victim of corrupt leaders for a very long time. They seem to finally be coming out of the era of piggy Duvaliers and ineffective Aristides. If we can add stability to our own region we should do so. I think Theodore Roosevelt's corollary to the Monroe Doctrine was sound policy, and it is the policy we operate under today.

linda22003
03-03-2010, 10:38 AM
Nothing is equal to her knowledge of grammar.;)

The way you phrased it, that was an elegant compliment. That may not have been your intent. :p

Gingersnap
03-03-2010, 10:44 AM
Okay, how about this-who cares if they become a democracy? They are, and likely always will be, a third world country. Even a democratic Haiti would not be financially viable, and they will likely never be a threat to us with no money, so why saddle my children and grandchildren with debt when it really doesn't matter to America the status of Haiti's political system? Making countries who hate us and want us dead into democracies is one thing, but Haiti is neither, nor does it appear that it will ever be a viable trading partner, strategic partner or anything else worth sinking money into aside from the humanitarian aspect of it, and we simply can't afford to do that any more.. You say that our roads won't get patched any faster, well, maybe that's the next step-to demand accountability for where our tax dollars are going!! We could lay off 80% of government workers tomorrow, and we wouldn't even know they were gone... The government is so bloated and inefficient that something really has to be done..

Look, I think virtually all politicians are just short of functional imbeciles. I have no respect or regard for their primitive budgeting skills. The stimulus was a huge mistake and your children will, indeed, pay for it.

Aid to Haiti isn't that money. Uncle Sam doesn't sit down at the kitchen table and sort out the bills the way your Aunt Betty does. Disaster relief funds for foreign countries get a budget slot no matter whose administration is running the show.

This is a huge opportunity for us. All of the infrastructure is demolished. A large number of the corrupt government officials are out of the picture and on the run. The only people in Haiti who are actually making any money right now are the employees of Haiti's few resorts. Those people really, really like us.

If we can steer Haiti into becoming a resort destination/retirement destination then those people can get jobs and make money. People who make money like democracies because they directly benefit from them. Those people's kids will go to school. Educated Haitians are Haitians who won't be sneaking into our country or providing a money laundering operation for our enemies.

It's not in the Bible per se but it ought to be: do good to do well. ;)

linda22003
03-03-2010, 10:53 AM
It's not in the Bible per se but it ought to be: do good to do well. ;)

Oh, I think it is - Ecclesiastes 11:1-2.

stsinner
03-03-2010, 10:53 AM
Look, I think virtually all politicians are just short of functional imbeciles. I have no respect or regard for their primitive budgeting skills. The stimulus was a huge mistake and your children will, indeed, pay for it.

Aid to Haiti isn't that money. Uncle Sam doesn't sit down at the kitchen table and sort out the bills the way your Aunt Betty does. Disaster relief funds for foreign countries get a budget slot no matter whose administration is running the show.

This is a huge opportunity for us. All of the infrastructure is demolished. A large number of the corrupt government officials are out of the picture and on the run. The only people in Haiti who are actually making any money right now are the employees of Haiti's few resorts. Those people really, really like us.

If we can steer Haiti into becoming a resort destination/retirement destination then those people can get jobs and make money. People who make money like democracies because they directly benefit from them. Those people's kids will go to school. Educated Haitians are Haitians who won't be sneaking into our country or providing a money laundering operation for our enemies.

It's not in the Bible per se but it ought to be: do good to do well. ;)

You make a very good point, I must say.. I hadn't thought of that, simply because that would be such a monumental task that I don't foresee Haiti being a resort destination in my lifetime.. But I suppose it could happen.. We would have to transform their entire culture, and that is almost fantasy. It seems the only way to gain favor with people around the world is to give them things.. We stop giving them things, we fall out of favor.. It's almost like a long marriage ending and the judge awarding alimony because the husband was the provider... I'm not for creating another Cancun, where the resort is gorgeous, but if you venture outside the resort you get kidnapped, mugged or killed, which is how I envision a resort in Haiti to be...

Also, as callous as it sounds, as I look around the world, I don't see a country with that demographic that is a non-corrupt, financially sound, with a well-educated populace whose people don't want to leave....... Is it even possible?

FlaGator
03-03-2010, 10:56 AM
We don't allow them to park nukes in Cuba and we didn't fund their government.

That is right, Russia did after the country became communist because of little support of the Batista government when Castro took over. Russia parked some nukes there but moved them after Kennedy threatened WWIII. Do you think the U.S. still has the will to stand firm like that again?

FlaGator
03-03-2010, 10:57 AM
Oh, I think it is - Ecclesiastes 11:1-2.

I think that I pointed stsinner or rock to 11:1 earlier.

linda22003
03-03-2010, 10:58 AM
You make a very good point, I must say.. I hadn't thought of that, simply because that would be such a monumental task that I don't foresee Haiti being a resort destination in my lifetime...

Part of it already is. There is an island on the north coast, Labadee, which Royal Caribbean has leased for many years as a "private island" for its cruise passengers. They employ several hundred Haitians there; when they resumed cruising to the island very shortly after the earthquake, they came under criticism from people who didn't know this. They were keeping these people employed, and I say good for them.

linda22003
03-03-2010, 10:59 AM
I think that I pointed stsinner or rock to 11:1 earlier.

I haven't read the whole thread, sorry.

linda22003
03-03-2010, 11:00 AM
Also, as callous as it sounds, as I look around the world, I don't see a country with that demographic that is a non-corrupt, financially sound, with a well-educated populace whose people don't want to leave....... Is it even possible?

"That demographic".... I knew race would come up sooner or later. :rolleyes:

stsinner
03-03-2010, 11:00 AM
Part of it already is. There is an island on the north coast, Labadee, which Royal Caribbean has leased for many years as a "private island" for its cruise passengers. They employ several hundred Haitians there; when they resumed cruising to the island very shortly after the earthquake, they came under criticism from people who didn't know this. They were keeping these people employed, and I say good for them.

I, as well, say good for them.. I was not aware of this, and now I am.. Funny-I was just going to do a search for Haiti vacation destinations to educate myself on the matter.. But I think that for most people Haiti doesn't bring to mind tropical paradise and retirement plans....

stsinner
03-03-2010, 11:01 AM
"That demographic".... I knew race would come up sooner or later. :rolleyes:

Oh, come on... Dispute the facts or don't comment.. Can you name me a country that resembles Haiti in terms of demographic that doesn't have a corrupt government, rampant crime and poverty? Gosh, now that I think about it, America has those three things.... Damn..


You have to take this into consideration if you're going to try to transform the country into a place where people long to retire and vacation, don't you? In business, don't you take all the factors into account when making decisions? You don't put a Neiman Marcus in downtown Detroit for obvious reasons..

Rockntractor
03-03-2010, 11:05 AM
That is right, Russia did after the country became communist because of little support of the Batista government when Castro took over. Russia parked some nukes there but moved them after Kennedy threatened WWIII. Do you think the U.S. still has the will to stand firm like that again?
So you are saying we should pay a ransom to every country around us so that they won't arm themselves with nukes?

linda22003
03-03-2010, 11:06 AM
I, as well, say good for them.. I was not aware of this, and now I am.. Funny-I was just going to do a search for Haiti vacation destinations to educate myself on the matter.. But I think that for most people Haiti doesn't bring to mind tropical paradise and retirement plans....

http://www.royalcaribbean.com/findacruise/ports/group/home.do;jsessionid=0000u5kq_x-ba-yN3mB3nC0GtL3:12hdhu87a;jsessionid=0000Z37us-Q3a5q_yLaFF88NSdD:12hdhua36?portCode=LAB

FlaGator
03-03-2010, 11:10 AM
So you are saying we should pay a ransom to every country around us so that they won't arm themselves with nukes?

Nope, those are your words. I'm saying that being a good neighbor goes a long way toward friendly behavior.

linda22003
03-03-2010, 11:10 AM
Oh, come on... Dispute the facts or don't comment.. Can you name me a country that resembles Haiti in terms of demographic that doesn't have a corrupt government, rampant crime and poverty?

The Dominican Republic, which shares Hispaniola with Haiti, is light years ahead of it.

Gingersnap
03-03-2010, 11:23 AM
I, as well, say good for them.. I was not aware of this, and now I am.. Funny-I was just going to do a search for Haiti vacation destinations to educate myself on the matter.. But I think that for most people Haiti doesn't bring to mind tropical paradise and retirement plans....

True but there are a lot of thriving resort destinations today that were parasite-ridden, banana republic hell-holes 30 years ago.

The Haitian government is essentially gone and it's the tin-pot dictator/bureaucrats who stand in the way of these resort developments. Who pays for all the schools, cars, houses, consumer electronics, and the rest of it that Mexicans resort workers and their families so enjoy? We do and I'm fine with that. Every happy Mexican resort worker is one illegal alien we don't have to worry about. He or she is also one more "worker" who has tasted the fruits of capitalism and found them tasty.

If we help the Haitians rebuild and expand their (now) primitive vacation developments, maybe in 15 years we won't be sending millions of dollars to them in food and medicine. Instead, we will have a mutually beneficial business relationship and the satisfaction of helping our neighbor. ;)

linda22003
03-03-2010, 11:25 AM
If we help the Haitians rebuild and expand their (now) primitive vacation developments, maybe in 15 years we won't be sending millions of dollars to them in food and medicine. Instead, we will have a mutually beneficial business relationship and the satisfaction of helping our neighbor. ;)

Works for me. I won't take a mass market behemoth like Royal Caribbean, but I'll be happy to cruise there on Sea Dream.

http://www.seadreamyachtclub.com/

Rebel Yell
03-03-2010, 11:27 AM
If we can steer Haiti into becoming a resort destination/retirement destination then those people can get jobs and make money. People who make money like democracies because they directly benefit from them. Those people's kids will go to school. Educated Haitians are Haitians who won't be sneaking into our country or providing a money laundering operation for our enemies.

Before we start sending retirees and tourists there, we need to cut down on the machette violence.

Come to Haiti. It's like Camp Crystal Lake, only with more, smaller Jasons.

stsinner
03-03-2010, 11:28 AM
True but there are a lot of thriving resort destinations today that were parasite-ridden, banana republic hell-holes 30 years ago.

The Haitian government is essentially gone and it's the tin-pot dictator/bureaucrats who stand in the way of these resort developments. Who pays for all the schools, cars, houses, consumer electronics, and the rest of it that Mexicans resort workers and their families so enjoy? We do and I'm fine with that. Every happy Mexican resort worker is one illegal alien we don't have to worry about. He or she is also one more "worker" who has tasted the fruits of capitalism and found them tasty.

If we help the Haitians rebuild and expand their (now) primitive vacation developments, maybe in 15 years we won't be sending millions of dollars to them in food and medicine. Instead, we will have a mutually beneficial business relationship and the satisfaction of helping our neighbor. ;)

That would be the ideal outcome, and I hope you're right... I hope this deficit isn't all for naught...

Rockntractor
03-03-2010, 11:32 AM
Libertarians? Conservatives? Modern socialists?

FlaGator
03-03-2010, 11:36 AM
Before we start sending retirees and tourists there, we need to cut down on the machette violence.

Come to Haiti. It's like Camp Crystal Lake, only with more, smaller Jasons.

I'm envisioning a chance for a budding archvillian to create his or her very own zombie army from all the retirees and tourist we send over there (hahahaha!)

noonwitch
03-03-2010, 04:34 PM
I'm envisioning a chance for a budding archvillian to create his or her very own zombie army from all the retirees and tourist we send over there (hahahaha!)



I think Geoffrey Holder is still alive. He could help.

NJCardFan
03-04-2010, 07:15 AM
In answer I will point you to a Bible verse that articulate_ape used a few weeks back, Ecclesiastes 11:1

Your analogy does not fit the situation. No stolen money is used. You have rendered unto Cesaer what is Cesaer's and he has used the money as he sees fit. Cesaer didn't break in to my home and take it.

While I agree with you in principle, you're logic here is flawed. I, nor anyone, didn't render anything to Cesaer. It was taken from us. By force. Usually before it's in your hands. I do not willingly give federal income tax. Per my paycheck, it's withheld. Meaning, it's kept from me against my will. The manner in which the money I worked for is taken is no different than breaking into my house and taking it. The analogies are separated only by semantics. Theft by any other word is still theft. If you don't believe me, claim 8 on your W-2 then on April 15th, ignore paying your taxes. Chances are you're going be visited by some people from the government and if you further resist, Cesaer, as you put it, is going to send some Centurions to collect what he believes is his and these Centurions will be armed.

Now, as for the argument at hand, I can't disagree with either of you. For starters, yes, we have some problems of our own here that need tending to yet the government wants to send billions of dollars to a shithole like Haiti to rebuild it. A country that has contributed absolutely nothing to the world and who's sole function seems to be that of a leach. But on the other hand, it is not the fault of the people that it's government is so irresponsible. Especially the dictatorships of the Duvalier family. This is why if we're going to send hundreds of millions of American tax payer dollars, it should be better spent doing the actual work and not just giving it up to that shithole's so called leaders to decide what to do with it.

FlaGator
03-04-2010, 08:14 AM
While I agree with you in principle, you're logic here is flawed. I, nor anyone, didn't render anything to Cesaer. It was taken from us. By force. Usually before it's in your hands. I do not willingly give federal income tax. Per my paycheck, it's withheld. Meaning, it's kept from me against my will. The manner in which the money I worked for is taken is no different than breaking into my house and taking it. The analogies are separated only by semantics. Theft by any other word is still theft. If you don't believe me, claim 8 on your W-2 then on April 15th, ignore paying your taxes. Chances are you're going be visited by some people from the government and if you further resist, Cesaer, as you put it, is going to send some Centurions to collect what he believes is his and these Centurions will be armed.

Now, as for the argument at hand, I can't disagree with either of you. For starters, yes, we have some problems of our own here that need tending to yet the government wants to send billions of dollars to a shithole like Haiti to rebuild it. A country that has contributed absolutely nothing to the world and who's sole function seems to be that of a leach. But on the other hand, it is not the fault of the people that it's government is so irresponsible. Especially the dictatorships of the Duvalier family. This is why if we're going to send hundreds of millions of American tax payer dollars, it should be better spent doing the actual work and not just giving it up to that shithole's so called leaders to decide what to do with it.

I would point you to Romans 13:1-2


Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

To follow this teaching is to render unto Cesaer what Cesaer asks for. If the Government requires you to pay taxes then you pay them. You don't have to think it is fair but to comply with the verse you most do so willingly. You either pay taxes willingly or you choose to defy God's desires for your behavior.

linda22003
03-04-2010, 08:47 AM
I heard a story on the news last evening, on the way home, about six clothing company representatives from Haiti who are in Las Vegas for an international trade show. They met with Ron Kirk, the US trade representative, about the possibility of easing quotas on clothing imports from Haiti, to improve their economy. I don't see any issue with that. Since we've already pretty much outsourced our textile industry, I'd rather buy clothes assembled in Haiti than clothes assembled in China, and put Haitian people to work.

Sonnabend
03-04-2010, 02:53 PM
I'm envisioning a chance for a budding archvillian to create his or her very own zombie army from all the retirees and tourist we send over there (hahahaha!)

To: FlaGator
From VRWC Central Command

Subject: Revealing classified information.

Sir

You are hereby reminded of secrecy protocols, and are directed to not publically discuss ongoing research projects. :mad:

Thatisall.

C.C. McSorley
Office of the Director

Wei Wu Wei
03-04-2010, 02:55 PM
I can't understand, other than the Liberal PC bullshit mindset, why we give a shit about rebuilding Haiti... It's infuriating!!! Haiti has always and will always be nothing more than a charity case.. They will never contribute anything to the world, and they will never repay any of the aid given them by us and other developed nations.. Our government should only spend our money on interests that will benefit America in some way, and propping Haiti absolutely will not... It was a shit hole before the disaster, and it will be a shit hole long after, no matter how many millions we sink into that cess pool because you can't escape culture... We should stop wasting money on this disaster beyond a firm time-table of basic humanitarian aid... After that, they should be on their own..

Because they are human beings like I am. Just do it.

As for here, people should donate and also participate politically to ensure that more money goes towards improving our country where we really need it.

FlaGator
03-04-2010, 02:55 PM
To: FlaGator
From VRWC Central Command

Subject: Revealing classified information.

Sir

You are hereby reminded of secrecy protocols, and are directed to not publically discuss ongoing research projects. :mad:

Thatisall.

C.C. McSorley
Office of the Director

orrysay

Space Gravy
03-05-2010, 09:32 AM
I'm of the opinion that no public money should be used for this effort.

Their are ample ways for those that want to donate to do so through something as simple as a text message.