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Gingersnap
03-06-2010, 12:09 AM
Doctor, patient part ways over health care debate

By RAY REYES | The Tampa Tribune
and NATALIE SHEPHERD | News Channel 8

Published: March 5, 2010

Updated: 03/05/2010 11:46 am

TAMPA - It's no secret that proposals for health care reform have been divisive.

The issue has intensified partisanship in Congress. A seemingly endless stream of special-interest groups from across the country has weighed in with rhetoric and money. The debate ranges from talk radio to office water coolers.

In Tampa, the issue has transcended rhetoric to become intensely personal. It has severed the relationship between a doctor and a patient.

The doctor is Madelyn Butler, founder of an obstetrics and gynecology practice called The Woman's Group. She doesn't like President Barack Obama's health care proposal and has posters in her office urging people to contact lawmakers and tell them to vote against the legislation.

The patient is Barbara Gabriel, pregnant with her first child and a backer of the president's plan for health care reform. She saw the posters during a routine checkup at Butler's office.

Offended, Gabriel pulled them down and tossed them out, she said. Then she sent a letter to Butler on Dec. 29, admonishing the doctor for a "lack of professionalism" and for "introducing political propaganda in a clinical setting."

The doctor responded a week later. She wrote that she, too, was offended.

Butler said in her letter that Gabriel went overboard in her reaction to the posters and that it was clear from Gabriel's letter "that your opinion of us is beneath the threshold of goodness that a patient should have for her health caretaker."

"It is for this reason that we ask that you seek the care of another OB/Gyn," Butler wrote.

Gabriel, four months pregnant at the time, said she was surprised she had been fired as a patient. Other than the posters, she was happy with the care she was given.

For her part, Butler said, she would have welcomed a healthy discourse on the topic. She said she would have told Gabriel that government should not come between the doctor-patient relationship.

The doctor said she didn't mind Gabriel voicing her opinions and that the decision to dismiss her as a patient didn't come lightly.

But Gabriel crossed the line when she took the Florida Medical Association-endorsed posters from private property, the doctor said. She said her former patient's letter also had a disparaging tone.

"It was very strongly worded," Butler said. "It was hostile."

It appeared Gabriel had lost respect for her doctors, Butler said. Without that respect, she said, trust was shattered.

In her letter, Gabriel wrote, "The bloated salaries that specialists such as the physicians at The Woman's Group earn are a symptom of the sickness that currently plagues our broken healthcare system."

Later in the letter she writes, "For you to suggest to your patients that healthcare reform is coming in between you and those you serve is, quite frankly, disgusting."

Tampa Bay Online (http://www2.tbo.com/content/2010/mar/05/doctor-patient-part-ways-over-health-care-debate/)

djones520
03-06-2010, 12:20 AM
Good. Time people started standing up to these nuts.

megimoo
03-06-2010, 12:57 AM
Tampa Bay Online (http://www2.tbo.com/content/2010/mar/05/doctor-patient-part-ways-over-health-care-debate/)
Where does she 'get off' thinking that she can tear down posters in private office as she chooses.This mentality is typical of aggressive female liberals.I've experienced Feminists threaten to slap a mans face who's politics they disagreed with.The classic Bitch feminist throwing scalding hot coffee in an older mans face and just about blinding him because he was picketing an abortion clinic.The Doctor did the correct thing in dismissing her as a patient.Who needs her arrogant far left political crap.

lacarnut
03-06-2010, 01:40 AM
Let her go find one of those AMA doctors. Oh, most of those lefties are not specialists.

Sonnabend
03-06-2010, 06:54 AM
Offended, Gabriel pulled them down and tossed them out, she said. Then she sent a letter to Butler on Dec. 29, admonishing the doctor for a "lack of professionalism" and for "introducing political propaganda in a clinical setting."

Not her concern, not her property.

She got off lightly, considering she could have been done for vandalism. If it does not belong to you, leave it alone.

AmPat
03-06-2010, 10:10 AM
This was her Bouncy moment. She sure showed that evil Rethug.:rolleyes:

FlaGator
03-06-2010, 10:37 AM
Good OB/GYNs are not easy to come by. Many have left the field due to the volume of laws suit filed against them. It seems that if a baby is born in any way not perfect a patient can find a lawyer willing to sue for malpractice

Bubba Dawg
03-06-2010, 10:50 AM
I've never seen political posters in any doctor's or dentist's offices I've been in. I wouldn't appreciate seeing them even if I agreed with their point of view. To me, they doesn't belong.

But, it is fully within the first amendment rights of the doctor to post them and to have his/her private property left alone. She could have voiced her objections and disagreed with the doctor but that is as far as it should have gone.

Of course, she was pregnant. I wonder if the doctor had any prior experience dealing with the emotions of pregnant women...

Sonnabend
03-06-2010, 11:05 AM
Of course, she was pregnant. I wonder if the doctor had any prior experience dealing with the emotions of pregnant women...

...I think a doctor in Obstetrics might know a little bit about it...:rolleyes:

Bubba Dawg
03-06-2010, 11:13 AM
...I think a doctor in Obstetrics might know a little bit about it...:rolleyes:

My point exactly. He should know better.

Whatever his political leanings he was unprofessional for insinuating his own political beliefs, whatever they might be, in a place where he is providing medical care to pregnant women who might actually be on an emotional rollercoaster because they are pregnant.

Unless his sees only pregnant women of one political persuasion he should keep his views to himself.

Sonnabend
03-06-2010, 11:43 AM
My point exactly. He should know better.

He is a she.


Whatever his political leanings he was unprofessional for insinuating his own political beliefs, whatever they might be, in a place where he is providing medical care to pregnant women who might actually be on an emotional rollercoaster because they are pregnant.

As I understand it, the posters are covered by the First Amendment, being as they are on private property. By that corollary no doctor should have Fox news, CNN or other news shows on TV as they provide "political commentary"


Unless his sees only pregnant women of one political persuasion he should keep his views to himself.

SHE is free to do as she damned well pleases.

Bubba Dawg
03-06-2010, 11:54 AM
He is a she.



As I understand it, the posters are covered by the First Amendment, being as they are on private property. By that corollary no doctor should have Fox news, CNN or other news shows on TV as they provide "political commentary"



SHE is free to do as she damned well pleases.

I said his/her in one part of my post. Really doesn't matter.

I said explicitly that it was the right of the doctor to do as he/she pleased on private property.

The doctor's judgment in posting the material is what I question.

First, do no harm is a valid principle in medical ethics. The doctor is governed by rules of behavior which are beyond the law and the rights given under the constitution.

This doctor did do harm to a patient. SHE may very well be able to do as she damned well pleases, but she is none-the-less, an ASS.

Sonnabend
03-06-2010, 12:02 PM
First, do no harm is a valid principle in medical ethics. Uh, primum non nocere refers to TREATMENT, not to what she can or cannot put on her office wall.


The doctor is governed by rules of behavior which are beyond the law and the rights given under the constitution.Say what???? :confused:


This doctor did do harm to a patient. SHE may very well be able to do as she damned well pleases, but she is none-the-less, an ASS. The widdle moonbat had her widdle feewings hurt...awww diddums.:rolleyes:.

Gingersnap
03-06-2010, 04:45 PM
We don't actually get a get-out-of-jail-free card just because we're pregnant. Women aren't so emotionally fragile and totally driven by hormones as some of us would like men to believe.

The doctor wanted to enlist her patients in contacting their representatives to kill Obamacare because this doctor doesn't believe that she will be able to provide a good level of care under that program.

By all accounts the doc didn't suggest that the woman do anything nor did she have a political conversation with her at all. The patient was entirely in the wrong here. If she didn't care for the posters, she could have just changed docs and asked for her records to be forwarded.

PoliCon
03-06-2010, 04:48 PM
My point exactly. He should know better.

Whatever his political leanings he was unprofessional for insinuating his own political beliefs, whatever they might be, in a place where he is providing medical care to pregnant women who might actually be on an emotional rollercoaster because they are pregnant.

Unless his sees only pregnant women of one political persuasion he should keep his views to himself.

If he owns the place she can put what evers he wants up on her walls as long as it's not illegal. So if she wants pics of mostly or completely naked men on her walls - that's her business. If you or I object, we can always take our business elsewhere.

FlaGator
03-06-2010, 05:19 PM
I said his/her in one part of my post. Really doesn't matter.

I said explicitly that it was the right of the doctor to do as he/she pleased on private property.

The doctor's judgment in posting the material is what I question.

First, do no harm is a valid principle in medical ethics. The doctor is governed by rules of behavior which are beyond the law and the rights given under the constitution.

This doctor did do harm to a patient. SHE may very well be able to do as she damned well pleases, but she is none-the-less, an ASS.

How did he harm her? Was in not her choice to be come offended?

Bubba Dawg
03-06-2010, 08:22 PM
A doctor is likely to have patients of many political persuasions in his/her practice. They pay the the doctor for his/her medical expertise. The patient pays the doctor.

I'm damned if I am going to continue seeing, and paying, a medal professional who brings, unbidden, an extraneous element like politics into the doctor patient relationship, especially if the political opinion of the doctor is different from my own. I wouldn't want my doctor talking politics with me because I don't pay him/her for his/her political opinions, even if I happen to agree with them.

Political discussions are, by their nature, potentially divisive. Such is human nature. And disagreements often cause people to be upset. Nobody should get a pass because she is pregnant.

A doctor has a right to post what he or she pleases in his/her office.

A pediatrician is a doctor who has a right to dress up like Freddie Kruger when he see his patients. Some would think that tit was way cool. Others would be terrified. So, right?....yes....good idea?.....not so much.

A doctor is not only subject to state and federal laws and also the AMA Code of Medical Ethics and the principles of the Hippocratic Oath. Do no harm is a valid principle.

Since political speech, including posters, is obviously legal that brings us to the matter of the professional judgment of the doctor. I don't question HER right to put up the poster. I also happen to agree with the content of the poster. But SHE should have had better sense than to post it in HER office because of the potential for divisiveness but also because it might upset some patients of a different political persuasion. I would fire a doctor who had a Bush Lied People Died poster in his/her office where I am obviously going to read it if I am (!) There and (B) Conscious and (C) can read. It would royally piss me off.

I wouldn't however tear down the poster. But I might if I were a psychiatric patient and a psychiatrist's office. Pregnant women don't get a pass, obviously, neither should they be antagonized by the political opinions of their doctors whom they pay. That is not only bad judgment, but bad business.

How was the patient in all this hurt?

Was she upset by this? Yes, apparently she was enraged to the point that she tore down the poster. Was she correct in doing so, obviously not. Do I agree with her doing so? Obviously not. Should she have been put in a position to have felt this emotion in the first place. No.

What are the health risks to an unborn baby of such an incident? Well, the mother was highly upset. Hopefully the baby is unharmed. Most likely that is the case. But, one thing is certain, the mother will have to find a new ob/gyn. I hope then next one has better judgment.

Did it ever occur to any of you that there may be some pregnant women in this economy, maybe even in that doctor's practice, who are facing the prospect of an uncertain future employment wise, and maybe that will affect their health insurance coverage while they are pregnant? Such a patient might be a wee bit uncertain about the future, how to pay for the things needed including birthing etc. etc . Such a person might be on edge, feeling unattractive, hormonally challenged, uncomfortable, sick and did I mention hormonally challenged?

Such a person might even be in favor of Obama Care. They might even be Democrats. They have that right. I would that they be disabused of such notions, but you know what?... there is a place and a time for such political persuasion and it isn't at the doctor's office.

Gingersnap
03-06-2010, 08:41 PM
A doctor's office is also her workplace. If she believes that the government is headed toward a situation that will provide a lower standard of care, she can alert her patients to that opinion - an opinion that is probably more informed than the patient's own.

A woman who would act this way probably acts this way all the time, pregnant or not. She wasn't harmed, she was offended and I'll bet that she's offended early and often.

Bubba Dawg
03-06-2010, 08:54 PM
A doctor's office is also her workplace. If she believes that the government is headed toward a situation that will provide a lower standard of care, she can alert her patients to that opinion - an opinion that is probably more informed than the patient's own.

A woman who would act this way probably acts this way all the time, pregnant or not. She wasn't harmed, she was offended and I'll bet that she's offended early and often.



Hey, I'm tryin' ta be sensitive here. :p

I don't think it being a workplace helps the argument. Many, even most times political discussion is discouraged, or even prohibited, in the workplace.

And I think the relationship between that particular patient and her doctor is the overriding factor.

The doctor's political opinions, no matter how right they might be, obviously got in the way of the doctor patient relationship.

The doctor was wrong.

Rockntractor
03-06-2010, 08:56 PM
[/B]

Hey, I'm tryin' ta be sensitive here. :p

I don't think it being a workplace helps the argument. Many, even most times political discussion is discouraged, or even prohibited, in the workplace.

And I think the relationship between that particular patient and her doctor is the overriding factor.

The doctor's political opinions, no matter how right they might be, obviously got in the way of the doctor patient relationship.

The doctor was wrong.
Oh crap! Poli is your sock.:confused::eek:

Bubba Dawg
03-06-2010, 08:59 PM
Oh crap! Poli is your sock.:confused::eek:

Poli is wise beyond his....um....brainpower....no that ain't it......sh*t....Hey, I'm being sensitive here.

Rockntractor
03-06-2010, 09:01 PM
Poli is wise beyond his....um....brainpower....no that ain't it......sh*t....Hey, I'm being sensitive here.

For trying to be sensitive to poli you are coming up short!

Bubba Dawg
03-06-2010, 09:04 PM
For trying to be sensitive to poli you are coming up short!

Is that even possible? :confused:

PoliCon
03-07-2010, 12:10 AM
A doctor's office is also her workplace. If she believes that the government is headed toward a situation that will provide a lower standard of care, she can alert her patients to that opinion - an opinion that is probably more informed than the patient's own.

A woman who would act this way probably acts this way all the time, pregnant or not. She wasn't harmed, she was offended and I'll bet that she's offended early and often.

yup yup yup

PoliCon
03-07-2010, 12:12 AM
[/B]

Hey, I'm tryin' ta be sensitive here. :p

I don't think it being a workplace helps the argument. Many, even most times political discussion is discouraged, or even prohibited, in the workplace.

And I think the relationship between that particular patient and her doctor is the overriding factor.

The doctor's political opinions, no matter how right they might be, obviously got in the way of the doctor patient relationship.

The doctor was wrong.

The appropriateness of politics in the work place is for the owner to decide.

PoliCon
03-07-2010, 12:12 AM
Oh crap! Poli is your sock.:confused::eek:

I'm gonna give you a sock. :mad: