PDA

View Full Version : Why Isn't Imperial Japan Looked At In The Same Light As Nazi Germany?



NJCardFan
03-12-2010, 12:34 AM
There is a discussion in another thread and the atomic bombing of Japan was brought up and certain members were looking at Japan as unwilling and unworthy victims. But here's the thing. The atrocities of Nazi Germany is well documented. Adolph Hitler is (rightly so) considered the most vile person in history. 6 million Jews were slaughtered as well as millions of others due to Germany's actions. But Japan was directly responsible for the deaths of millions in their own right but aren't looked at in the same light even though they murdered civilians in some pretty ghastly ways. In one case, they buried Chinese alive. And there's the infamous Bataan death march, among other things. Here is a wiki look at Japanese war crimes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes So I ask, why isn't Imperial Japan looked at in the same light as Nazi Germany? I mean read this passage:

To determine the treatment of frostbite, prisoners were taken outside in freezing weather and left with exposed arms, periodically drenched with water until frozen solid. The arm was later amputated; the doctor would repeat the process on the victim’s upper arm to the shoulder. After both arms were gone, the doctors moved on to the legs until only a head and torso remained. The victim was then used for plague and pathogens experiments.

Not much different than the Mengele experiments, no?

djones520
03-12-2010, 12:39 AM
There is a discussion in another thread and the atomic bombing of Japan was brought up and certain members were looking at Japan as unwilling and unworthy victims. But here's the thing. The atrocities of Nazi Germany is well documented. Adolph Hitler is (rightly so) considered the most vile person in history. 6 million Jews were slaughtered as well as millions of others due to Germany's actions. But Japan was directly responsible for the deaths of millions in their own right but aren't looked at in the same light even though they murdered civilians in some pretty ghastly ways. In one case, they buried Chinese alive. And there's the infamous Bataan death march, among other things. Here is a wiki look at Japanese war crimes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes So I ask, why isn't Imperial Japan looked at in the same light as Nazi Germany? I mean read this passage:


Not much different than the Mengele experiments, no?

We had stronger ties to Europe then Asia. So the horrors committed by Nazi Germany hit closer to home. Think of it like your friend getting shot, and some stranger down the street getting shot. Your going to feel bad about the stranger, but it's not going to have as big an impact as your friend.

NJCardFan
03-12-2010, 12:57 AM
We had stronger ties to Europe then Asia. So the horrors committed by Nazi Germany hit closer to home. Think of it like your friend getting shot, and some stranger down the street getting shot. Your going to feel bad about the stranger, but it's not going to have as big an impact as your friend.

But it's repeated in history books. People might have heard of the Bataan Death March but how many heard of the Nanking Massacre? I mean, why isn't Tojo and Hirohito looked at like Hitler is looked at? Read this passage:

The major means of getting intelligence was to extract information by interrogating prisoners. Torture was an unavoidable necessity. Murdering and burying them follows naturally. You do it so you won't be found out. I believed and acted this way because I was convinced of what I was doing. We carried out our duty as instructed by our masters. We did it for the sake of our country. From our filial obligation to our ancestors. On the battlefield, we never really considered the Chinese humans. When you're winning, the losers look really miserable. We concluded that the Yamato [i.e. Japanese] race was superior.[46]
Replace Yamato with Aryan and you're getting both sides of the same coin. But using your argument, if this were true, then why are we trashed for dropping nukes on them? What if we dropped them on Berlin? Would the reaction be the same? But for some reason the Japanese are looked at as unwilling victims.

djones520
03-12-2010, 01:02 AM
But it's repeated in history books. People might have heard of the Bataan Death March but how many heard of the Nanking Massacre? I mean, why isn't Tojo and Hirohito looked at like Hitler is looked at? Read this passage:

Replace Yamato with Aryan and you're getting both sides of the same coin. But using your argument, if this were true, then why are we trashed for dropping nukes on them? What if we dropped them on Berlin? Would the reaction be the same? But for some reason the Japanese are looked at as unwilling victims.

I don't think anyone disagrees that the atrocities were any less. It's just perception on how it was treated. Japan/China/Korea was still the "Far East" then. It was almost like happening on another world. The people were totally differant. In appearance, attitude, foods, etc... So here in America we didn't have quite the attachment that we did to Europe. It's still like that to a degree today.

And look at whose doing the trashing for dropping the bomb. Peace loving hippies. They'll trash anyone who lifts a finger to defend themselves and others from violence. Most sane people understand the need for it and accept it as it was. A necessary evil.

NJCardFan
03-12-2010, 01:18 AM
But even today these things aren't talked about. Oh, they'll bring up at the drop of a hat Auschwitz but as I said, no one knows about Nanking or the Manilla Massacre.

Rockntractor
03-12-2010, 01:21 AM
Most people don't know that we turned away Jewish refugees from Germany either.
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005267
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005182

djones520
03-12-2010, 01:24 AM
But even today these things aren't talked about. Oh, they'll bring up at the drop of a hat Auschwitz but as I said, no one knows about Nanking or the Manilla Massacre.

Again, it's all about perception. The atrocities were committed against people we had NO ties to at all. There is no emotional investment. Even our generations today has been mostly raised to think that the Chinese aren't "good" people. Their communists. Your generation, and my generation have been raised to think that. Their not the eternal whipping boys that the Jews have been. Germany committed just as vicious atrocities against Gypsies, Pols, Russians, etc... but our first thoughts about those camps are the Jews.

NJCardFan
03-12-2010, 01:34 AM
Again, it's all about perception. The atrocities were committed against people we had NO ties to at all. There is no emotional investment. Even our generations today has been mostly raised to think that the Chinese aren't "good" people. Their communists. Your generation, and my generation have been raised to think that. Their not the eternal whipping boys that the Jews have been. Germany committed just as vicious atrocities against Gypsies, Pols, Russians, etc... but our first thoughts about those camps are the Jews.

You're missing the point. Who gives a fuck about perception. I find it hard to believe that the Germans killed European civilians in the same manner that the Japanese did in Indochina.

djones520
03-12-2010, 01:41 AM
You're missing the point. Who gives a fuck about perception. I find it hard to believe that the Germans killed European civilians in the same manner that the Japanese did in Indochina.

http://www.remember.org/educate/medexp.html


Internal Irrigation

The frozen victim would have water heated to a near blistering temperature forcefully irrigated into the stomach, bladder, and intestines. All victims appeared to have died from the treatment.



Just a brief portion...

djones520
03-12-2010, 01:51 AM
http://www.auschwitz.dk/doctors.htm

http://fcit.usf.edu/holocaust/resource/document/DocMedEx.htm

Tons of references in here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_human_experimentation#Aftermath

The Nazi's were just as disgusting in what they did as the Japanese.

Sonnabend
03-12-2010, 03:07 AM
no one knows about Nanking or the Manilla Massacre.

*raises hand*

I do.

linda22003
03-12-2010, 08:09 AM
But even today these things aren't talked about. Oh, they'll bring up at the drop of a hat Auschwitz but as I said, no one knows about Nanking or the Manilla Massacre.

I wish you'd stop repeating that. A lot of us know about Nanking, and can even spell Manila! I think your perception comes from the heavy coverage of Nazis on the History channel and lesser coverage of the war in the Pacific.

NJCardFan
03-12-2010, 10:02 AM
I wish you'd stop repeating that. A lot of us know about Nanking, and can even spell Manila! I think your perception comes from the heavy coverage of Nazis on the History channel and lesser coverage of the war in the Pacific.

It's called a typo Miss Perfect so you can rub that Grammar Nazi shit on your chest. That said, I agree with your 2nd statement. And I'm not diminishing what the Nazi's did but for God's sake, the Japanese soldiers used to toss infants into the air and catch them on their bayonets. Both sides were sick fucks. But the whole point of this discussion is to educate a few people and we know who those people are. We have posters here admonishing us for dropping atomic bombs on Japan and how horrible it was for them but they never stop and look at the horrific things the Imperial Military did and how if we didn't nuke Japan, a lot of that would have gone on for a good long time in Japanese occupied territories.

linda22003
03-12-2010, 10:45 AM
Quite right, NJ; the Nazis were just as bad with eradicating civiliians, but the Japanese were in a league of their own, soaking POWs at Palawan in gasoline and burning them alive when they were about to be liberated. That's why the rescue raid on Cabanatuan was so dramatic, because the rescuers wanted no repeat of Palawan, and they succeeded in rescuing everyone.

Gingersnap
03-12-2010, 11:05 AM
It's an interesting question, alright.

Part of the difference has to be due to the victim status that the Japanese instantly claimed in the wake of the atomic bombings. That was so horrific that it wiped out public perception of the Japanese as vicious, sadistic killers (which they were).

Also, the Japanese didn't go down the same path of collective guilt and cultural doubt that the Germans so enthusiastically embraced. Even today, the average Japanese is sorry that they lost in WWII but they don't feel particularly upset over the actions of their military during that time. By contrast, the Germans are still apologizing for Hitler (though I suspect that they are getting tired of it).

papabull
03-12-2010, 11:30 AM
The Chinese hate Japan with passion that Americans don't have even for Nazi Germany. The atrocities that Japan visited on the Chinese will never be forgotten by them. I'm not sure why the Japanese ended up getting a free pass from us (for the most part).

But about the nuclear bombing of Japan.... China would have been OK with us blowing the entire Island right out of the ocean.

NJCardFan
03-12-2010, 11:49 AM
The Chinese hate Japan with passion that Americans don't have even for Nazi Germany. The atrocities that Japan visited on the Chinese will never be forgotten by them. I'm not sure why the Japanese ended up getting a free pass from us (for the most part).

But about the nuclear bombing of Japan.... China would have been OK with us blowing the entire Island right out of the ocean.
That's because with the exception of our fighting soldiers, the Nazi's didn't do anything to us directly. Something tells me that the state of Israel don't have much love for Germany nor Poland or former Czechoslovakia or Russia for that matter. But, yeah, the Japanese were in a league of their own. If people in this country knew what they did to our own POW's they wouldn't be so forgiving of them. I always thought of the Japanese as an honorable people but reading up on the shit they did makes my skin crawl. The Bataan Death March is particularly disturbing. I mean, cannibalism? And the aforementioned soaking whole crowds of people in kerosene and lighting them on fire? What kind of person does this to another? It's like the Japanese military were nothing but a large group of serial killers.

linda22003
03-12-2010, 11:58 AM
But, yeah, the Japanese were in a league of their own. If people in this country knew what they did to our own POW's they wouldn't be so forgiving of them. I always thought of the Japanese as an honorable people but reading up on the shit they did makes my skin crawl. The Bataan Death March is particularly disturbing. I mean, cannibalism? And the aforementioned soaking whole crowds of people in kerosene and lighting them on fire? What kind of person does this to another? It's like the Japanese military were nothing but a large group of serial killers.

It would sure cut down on the number of Japanese cars sold. My parents wouldn't even consider one (my father was in the Pacific war), and dad's not crazy about me driving a German car now. I mentioned the book "Ghost Soldiers", about Cabanatuan, in a previous post; I sobbed all the way through that book - in horror at the beginning, and in pride at the end.

Apache
03-12-2010, 11:58 AM
The answer is simple. Germany owned up to the horrors and abuses it comitted during the war. Japan, to this day, still fails to do so... China, Korea, the Phillipines and others, faced naked Japanese imperialism and aggression. All have documentation, yet Japan still refuses to acknowlege their role...

linda22003
03-12-2010, 12:00 PM
Apache's right - there have been "apology" type events that the Japanese have done, but it's all pretty much, "Okay, yeah. Sorry. Can we get back to business now?"

NJCardFan
03-12-2010, 12:08 PM
What's stranger is that the left in this country compares out soldiers to Nazi's yet even at our worst we don't compare. What the Japanese did at Nanking makes the Mei Lei massacre look like a child's birthday party by comparison. Not excusing Mei Lei because an atrocity is an atrocity but just pointing out that comparing our soldiers to Nazi's and our interrogation methods being described as torture is laughable.

Gingersnap
03-12-2010, 12:28 PM
What's stranger is that the left in this country compares out soldiers to Nazi's yet even at our worst we don't compare. What the Japanese did at Nanking makes the Mei Lei massacre look like a child's birthday party by comparison. Not excusing Mei Lei because an atrocity is an atrocity but just pointing out that comparing our soldiers to Nazi's and our interrogation methods being described as torture is laughable.

But that kind of criticism only works when both parties buy into the underlying assumption that something "dishonorable" happened. The Germans were part of the same Western culture as their critics.

Asians don't necessarily place the same value on the same acts. At the same time, we often ignore acts that have a great deal of importance to them. We're a long, long way from having some kind of global value system.

linda22003
03-12-2010, 12:33 PM
We're a long, long way from having some kind of global value system.

Global, hell. We still don't have a value system on the national, state, or county level. :p

fettpett
03-12-2010, 08:00 PM
I'll tell you, the biggest reasons why German attrocities as seen as greater are 2 fold. One the Germans abided by the Geneva Convention and were seen as "Civilized", Japan one didn't abide by the Geneva Conventions AT ALL, thus the treatment of POWs, Kamakazi bombings of ships and fighting too the death and not surdnering.

Second is that Germany was the "Greater" of 2 Evils. yeah we were allied with China, American troops even went to help in unoffical capasities just like they did in England. But look at who the Japanese were fighting from the 30's until 1941...a very aguarian socity in China that was in the middle of their own civil war between the Communist and Nationals, and a Bunch of backward colonies that the Europeans more or less dropped to fight Germany. And then from 1941 on the war was fought on a "Germany First" platform. so the focus was entirely on Germany and it wasn't till US Forces set foot into the Concetration camps that American's took Notice of what they were doing.

So the difference was that Japan was alreday seen as doing and being capable of dispicable things and the Germans weren't.


Oh and from what I've read, if the A-bomb had been ready or Berlin hadn't surendered when it did, the US was perpared to drop it on Germany first, but because it wasn't and they did, We had the time to focus on Japan and drop it on them. There was also a political reason for dropping the bombs other than the mens lives. Support for the War was very much on the wane and GI's, expecially those from the picture of the Flag Raising at Iwa Jima, were used to help keep the Public's attention on the War.

PoliCon
03-12-2010, 10:20 PM
There is a discussion in another thread and the atomic bombing of Japan was brought up and certain members were looking at Japan as unwilling and unworthy victims. But here's the thing. The atrocities of Nazi Germany is well documented. Adolph Hitler is (rightly so) considered the most vile person in history. 6 million Jews were slaughtered as well as millions of others due to Germany's actions. But Japan was directly responsible for the deaths of millions in their own right but aren't looked at in the same light even though they murdered civilians in some pretty ghastly ways. In one case, they buried Chinese alive. And there's the infamous Bataan death march, among other things. Here is a wiki look at Japanese war crimes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes So I ask, why isn't Imperial Japan looked at in the same light as Nazi Germany? I mean read this passage:


Not much different than the Mengele experiments, no? Why do we completely overlook the barbarism of our WWII ally? Stalin killed more than Hitler and Japan combined. Vilifying Imperial Japan would be too close to racism in the minds of the left.

Gingersnap
03-12-2010, 10:34 PM
Why do we completely overlook the barbarism of our WWII ally? Stalin killed more than Hitler and Japan combined. Vilifying Imperial Japan would be too close to racism in the minds of the left.


Because the biggest kills under Stalin happened outside the area of war. Most of the killing really happened after the war (as was true of the Chinese).

None of this is even really relevant. "Those people" (whoever they are) aren't part of our Western (Christian) culture of compassion, justice, and empathy. The Western inheritors of that culture who pick and choose which causes to favor are part of a dying culture. In any of the regimes they so admire, they would, as academics, intellectuals, or feminists, be literally 'first against the wall'.

NJCardFan
03-13-2010, 12:37 AM
Because the biggest kills under Stalin happened outside the area of war. Most of the killing really happened after the war (as was true of the Chinese).

None of this is even really relevant. "Those people" (whoever they are) aren't part of our Western (Christian) culture of compassion, justice, and empathy. The Western inheritors of that culture who pick and choose which causes to favor are part of a dying culture. In any of the regimes they so admire, they would, as academics, intellectuals, or feminists, be literally 'first against the wall'.

This.

Sonnabend
03-13-2010, 07:11 AM
But about the nuclear bombing of Japan.... China would have been OK with us blowing the entire Island right out of the ocean.

I am not sure I agree with this. China bears Japan no love, that is certain, but the fact they were stopped was, I think, enough. It ended the war and that was the primary concern. In retrospect, the words "appropriate use of force" come to mind, the idea was to bring the war to an end, not to commit genocide.

In this, the US used its discretion..and China's ascension as a global superpower is their long term revenge.

djones520
03-13-2010, 07:20 AM
I am not sure I agree with this. China bears Japan no love, that is certain, but the fact they were stopped was, I think, enough. It ended the war and that was the primary concern. In retrospect, the words "appropriate use of force" come to mind, the idea was to bring the war to an end, not to commit genocide.

In this, the US used its discretion..and China's ascension as a global superpower is their long term revenge.

Probably the only thing stopping Japan's own return to a global super power was their willingness to not rebuild their military to such levels. Their economy was certainly strong enough in most the 2nd half the of the 1900's. As of 2009 they owned nearly as much of our debt as China.

http://www.treas.gov/tic/mfh.txt

fettpett
03-13-2010, 09:11 AM
and unfortuntally for them the Chinese have surpased them as the second largest Economy in the world

PoliCon
03-13-2010, 10:02 AM
Because the biggest kills under Stalin happened outside the area of war. Most of the killing really happened after the war (as was true of the Chinese).

None of this is even really relevant. "Those people" (whoever they are) aren't part of our Western (Christian) culture of compassion, justice, and empathy. The Western inheritors of that culture who pick and choose which causes to favor are part of a dying culture. In any of the regimes they so admire, they would, as academics, intellectuals, or feminists, be literally 'first against the wall'.

True. There is a certain measure of the "you're like us so we expect better of you" attitude with regards to the Germans - and there is the fact that Japan and the orient has always been viewed as so very alien to our own culture - so that too played a factor. Then too - Japan did not borrow so much from our own