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View Full Version : In retrospect, was the Gulf War a bad idea?



CaughtintheMiddle1990
03-12-2010, 01:41 PM
The premise of us going into the first Gulf War was to secure Kuwait (and it's oil rich fields); However, prior to the Gulf War we had a great working relaitonship with Hussein and his regime, though barbaric, kept Iran (our bigger enemy) in check. What would've been the danger of Saddam having Kuwait? He considered us such an ally to him that he felt we'd support his decision to invade Kuwait--And having an ally who controlled a good portion of the world's oil would've been a good thing, similar to our relationship with the Saudis.
Instead we made just another enemy, failed to effect regime change in 1991 which in essence left the problem for another generation to handle and lost the main ally who Iran feared. Without someone crazy like Saddam in power, the Iranians as we have seen have only gotten bolder and bolder. At least with Saddam, they were afraid of him and if he was our ally, his would've been a good point for starting an invasion of Iran

I for one liked Eisenhower's strategy--a tyrant who agrees with us and helps us is a better ally on the world stage than a Democratically elected leader who attempts to undermine our standing.

Apocalypse
03-12-2010, 02:38 PM
Removed a Dictator that murdered over 800,000 Iraqis not counting those killed in the Iran-Iraq war. Ended a sponsor of Terrorism. Brought about a sense of stabilization to the region.

Yea, worth it.

Zeus
03-12-2010, 02:39 PM
The Death of the ‘Iran Won’ Myth (http://article.nationalreview.com/427456/the-death-of-the-iran-won-myth/victor-davis-hanson)
In the Left’s eyes, Iran was the greatest beneficiary of the Iraq War. Let’s look at the reality.

Did the fall of Saddam Hussein and the violent birth of Iraqi democracy really empower Iran?

That conventional wisdom might have been true in the shorter term during the chaotic Iraqi insurrection, but it was never an accurate assessment over the longer haul — as we are beginning to see, nearly seven years after the Iraq War began.

megimoo
03-12-2010, 03:21 PM
The premise of us going into the first Gulf War was to secure Kuwait (and it's oil rich fields); However, prior to the Gulf War we had a great working relaitonship with Hussein and his regime, though barbaric, kept Iran (our bigger enemy) in check. What would've been the danger of Saddam having Kuwait? He considered us such an ally to him that he felt we'd support his decision to invade Kuwait--And having an ally who controlled a good portion of the world's oil would've been a good thing, similar to our relationship with the Saudis.
Instead we made just another enemy, failed to effect regime change in 1991 which in essence left the problem for another generation to handle and lost the main ally who Iran feared. Without someone crazy like Saddam in power, the Iranians as we have seen have only gotten bolder and bolder. At least with Saddam, they were afraid of him and if he was our ally, his would've been a good point for starting an invasion of Iran

I for one liked Eisenhower's strategy--a tyrant who agrees with us and helps us is a better ally on the world stage than a Democratically elected leader who attempts to undermine our standing.

Kuwait was only step one in Hussein plans.He would use it as a jumping off point to Saudi Arabia's vast oilfields.During the invasion Hussein tank corps tried a blitzkrieg attack towards the Saudi town of Al Khafji.

"On January 29, following two weeks of punishing coalition air assaults, the Iraqis mounted their one and only attack subsequent to the invasion at the Battle of Khafji.

The Iraqi Fifth Mechanized Division attacked south, capturing the Saudi town of Al Khafji eight miles south of the Kuwaiti border.

The Iraqis overran the first Saudi force that attempted a counterattack and, despite massive American air attacks, they held on to the town through the day and night. The next day was a different story, however, when Saudis recaptured the town, forcing the remaining Iraqis to flee to the Kuwaiti border."

He wouldn't be content with just Kuwait,not with the much richer pickings just over the border in Saudi Arabia.

Saddam made the first move and the Saudis and Kuwait's screamed for our help.All of that oil sure helps when you are attacked by an enemy like Saddam and Saddam's miscalculation was exactly like yours.

He felt that we would do nothing and allow him to do as he wished in fear of becoming involved in the middle east. Saddam mentality wasn't up to date on modern warfare.

His forces were geared more along the line of the second world war tank battles the British used against Rommel's Afrikakorps.Americas air power swept the skies free of his aircraft after the first day and without Air Power the war is lost .

Modern warfare isn't about tanks so much as it is about digital high speed target acquisition and precision massive airborne missiles strikes .

Iran's forces are much the same as Iraq's were and in a war with either America of Israel they are sadly outmatched.Saudi Arabia remains the dominant nation in the region having only to call and we respond to defend her.



[/QUOTE]

Rebel Yell
03-12-2010, 03:23 PM
Do your own damn homework.

megimoo
03-12-2010, 03:34 PM
Do your own damn homework.Was that for me?

Rebel Yell
03-12-2010, 03:36 PM
Was that for me?

No. If you look at the threads CITM starts. They all read like some sort of essay subject for his classes. He has already said he's in college. We're just ginuea pigs for his papers. Just another lazy college student.

Zeus
03-12-2010, 03:41 PM
There is knowledge that you know, and there is knowledge that you know where to look to find.


What you think you know where to find on the web, but which has since disappeared from that location and is no longer in google’s cache. ;)

CaughtintheMiddle1990
03-12-2010, 03:44 PM
Removed a Dictator that murdered over 800,000 Iraqis not counting those killed in the Iran-Iraq war. Ended a sponsor of Terrorism. Brought about a sense of stabilization to the region.

Yea, worth it.


No. If you look at the threads CITM starts. They all read like some sort of essay subject for his classes. He has already said he's in college. We're just ginuea pigs for his papers. Just another lazy college student.

I'm only taking two courses this semester--Constitutional Law and Crime and Punishment. Do either of these sound like they have to do with the Gulf War? I apologize that I have an interest in history and it's effect on today, but...There's no papers or homework here.

Rebel Yell
03-12-2010, 03:50 PM
I'm only taking two courses this semester--Constitutional Law and Crime and Punishment. Do either of these sound like they have to do with the Gulf War? I apologize that I have an interest in history and it's effect on today, but...There's no papers or homework here.

Well, if that's the case, I apologize.

Apocalypse
03-12-2010, 07:03 PM
I'm only taking two courses this semester--Constitutional Law and Crime and Punishment. Do either of these sound like they have to do with the Gulf War? I apologize that I have an interest in history and it's effect on today, but...There's no papers or homework here.
I wan't you to read this in full, and look at each photo closely, then come back and tell me that you would be happy if we did nothing and allowed this to continue.

http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geuyZc1JpLR8AAakNXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEzbm9qMW4 zBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDNgRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA0Y2NjVfMTAw/SIG=126t7o5rq/EXP=1268524508/**http%3a//www.usaid.gov/iraq/pdf/iraq_mass_graves.pdf

An excerpt;



They were pushed to the ground and then were pulled up one at a time to be executed. They were pushed a couple of feet to the edge of the swamp and shot. Most would fall before being shot because they were over-come with fear. Ali does not remember any words being spoken—except the plea of the three brothers who begged that at least one be spared. They were executed one at a time. Next, the woman was shot in front of her five-year-old child. The child lunged at the legs of the executioner and was kicked away and shot in the face. The blind man was then executed and his chest exploded on Ali.

CaughtintheMiddle1990
03-12-2010, 10:37 PM
I wan't you to read this in full, and look at each photo closely, then come back and tell me that you would be happy if we did nothing and allowed this to continue.

http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geuyZc1JpLR8AAakNXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEzbm9qMW4 zBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDNgRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA0Y2NjVfMTAw/SIG=126t7o5rq/EXP=1268524508/**http%3a//www.usaid.gov/iraq/pdf/iraq_mass_graves.pdf

An excerpt;

What a tyrant does in his own country shouldn't be our business. If the tyrant is willing to work with us, and his reign benefits us, than that's all that one as an American should care about. I'd rather a tyrant who is willing to agree with the US than a Democratically elected enemy.
America first.

Apocalypse
03-12-2010, 10:54 PM
What a tyrant does in his own country shouldn't be our business. If the tyrant is willing to work with us, and his reign benefits us, than that's all that one as an American should care about. I'd rather a tyrant who is willing to agree with the US than a Democratically elected enemy.
America first.
So what Hitler did to the Jews in Europe was also none of our business and we should have never done any thing there ether as Germany had not attacked us.

How callous and uncaring when you are not willing to rise and help those who are oppressed and being brutalized. To watch as millions are being murdered and do nothing goes against all we claim to hold dear and near.

Recently there as an massive earth quake in Haiti, maybe we shouldn't have helped them as 'America first'. Maybe we shouldn't have sent them aid as we have people here that need help just as bad.

Sonnabend
03-12-2010, 11:07 PM
What a tyrant does in his own country shouldn't be our business. If the tyrant is willing to work with us, and his reign benefits us, than that's all that one as an American should care about. I'd rather a tyrant who is willing to agree with the US than a Democratically elected enemy.

America first.It's attitudes like you, you uneducated, clueless, unutterable JACKASS,, that had Americans dismissing the Holocaust as "propaganda". You didnt believe it and so sent a shipoad of Jews back...to be gassed.

FUCK ME, how much of an imbecile are you? If you had made that comment in a classroom where I was teaching, I'd throw you out.

BODILY. Head first.

Where the FUCK do you go to school? Berkeley? :mad:

Sonnabend
03-12-2010, 11:09 PM
What a tyrant does in his own country shouldn't be our business.

http://www.ynetnews.com/PicServer2/01082004/551154/Auschwitz5_wa.jpg

WARNING: Graphic image
(http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/Auschwitz_corpses.JPG)

Apocalypse
03-12-2010, 11:28 PM
Sonna, his liberal loser mindset is astounding. Needless to say it reminded me of this picture.

http://i.somethingawful.com/sasbi/2006/07/livestock/07-05-06-awful.jpg

Sonnabend
03-12-2010, 11:33 PM
his liberal loser mindset is sickening. I bet he is glad the US allies didnt think the same way...then again, this little fuckwit is obviously of the opinion that the US won WW2 singlehandedly, as well as any and all other engagements and events.

I say it again: US education as it stands is in need of a good cleaning. With BRAIN BLEACH.

Un-fucking-believable :eek:

Rockntractor
03-12-2010, 11:39 PM
What a tyrant does in his own country shouldn't be our business. If the tyrant is willing to work with us, and his reign benefits us, than that's all that one as an American should care about. I'd rather a tyrant who is willing to agree with the US than a Democratically elected enemy.
America first.
Despite your earlier quote from Eisenhower there is no such thing as one size fits all solutions. Eisenhower if he read your posts would consider you an idiot and would demand our school system be investigated!

Sonnabend
03-12-2010, 11:44 PM
http://img390.imageshack.us/img390/6711/32251295pz5.jpg

NJCardFan
03-13-2010, 12:18 AM
Sonnabend, you and I have had our differences but with your posts in this thread I now have a newfound respect for you. CITM, you are an incredible idiot. That's all I have to say. Nothing more can be said.

djones520
03-13-2010, 12:27 AM
What a tyrant does in his own country shouldn't be our business. If the tyrant is willing to work with us, and his reign benefits us, than that's all that one as an American should care about. I'd rather a tyrant who is willing to agree with the US than a Democratically elected enemy.
America first.

Well, you are wrong. As human beings we should care.

Rockntractor
03-13-2010, 12:31 AM
Well, you are wrong. As human beings we should care.

Even if we didn't care, tyrants seldom stay within their borders unless they are forced to.

Articulate_Ape
03-13-2010, 01:23 AM
In retrospect, was the Gulf War a bad idea? That depends on what that original idea was. Just like the Iraq war.

Bush Sr. went through the UN to "Free Kuwait". Why? There is a lot more to the story. It morphs into today.

Personally, I don't think it was about the things most people think it was (i.e. WMD's, oil, foiling a mad dictator, Bush revenge, Bush folly, etc.).

I think is was a very good idea, perhaps poorly executed (both wars, but that happens in wars), but the right idea. The motive driving it was clear to me from the get go and strategically sound in the long term even now. However, before I disclose what I believe to be the end game strategy driving the decision to invade Iraq, I would like to know what others here think was the real motive for the Iraq War.

Any takers?

Rockntractor
03-13-2010, 01:35 AM
In retrospect, was the Gulf War a bad idea? That depends on what that original idea was. Just like the Iraq war.

Bush Sr. went through the UN to "Free Kuwait". Why? There is a lot more to the story. It morphs into today.

Personally, I don't think it was about the things most people think it was (i.e. WMD's, oil, foiling a mad dictator, Bush revenge, Bush folly, etc.).

I think is was a very good idea, perhaps poorly executed (both wars, but that happens in wars), but the right idea. The motive driving it was clear to me from the get go and strategically sound in the long term even now. However, before I disclose what I believe to be the end game strategy driving the decision to invade Iraq, I would like to know what others here think was the real motive for the Iraq War.

Any takers?
To bring our enemies together in one battle zone.

Articulate_Ape
03-13-2010, 02:18 AM
To bring our enemies together in one battle zone.

That'll do, pig. That'll do.

NJCardFan
03-13-2010, 02:35 AM
I think Bush got tired of Saddam thumbing his nose at the U.N. and the rest of the world and decided to take matter into his own hands. Lefties like to use the term unilateral which is bullshit. Saddam violated 16 U.N. resolutions for 12 years. Of course we found out why with Saddam taking the funds from the oil for food project and bribing Germany, France, Russia, and the U.N. That's why the U.N. was so set against the Iraq war. Their gravy train was getting cut off. Of course Saddam's attempt on Bush 41's life didn't help matters much.

Sonnabend
03-13-2010, 06:38 AM
Sonnabend, you and I have had our differences but with your posts in this thread I now have a newfound respect for you.

From you, that's high praise. :)

I don't have all the answers...no one does..but I had an incredible history teacher who showed me what the lessons were, and why we should learn them.

History is not just about the past..it is about who we are, how we got here, and more importantly...WHY.

He died a few years after I graduated...you would have liked him. A lot.

Sonnabend
03-13-2010, 06:57 AM
However, before I disclose what I believe to be the end game strategy driving the decision to invade Iraq, I would like to know what others here think was the real motive for the Iraq War.

Any takers?I'll take a shot.

1. Saddam had WMD...he had them, he used them, he was after more. He was a tyrant (incidentally, the word tyrannos is Greek in origin..which is interesting since Greece was also the birthplace of democracy. Take a look at Crete and Mycenae, try under the keyword thalassocracies) and a killer.

His sons were scum. No one laments their passing, and Iraqi women heaved a huge sigh of relief when Uday and Qusay made the fatal mistake of pointing a weapon at a US Marine.

2. Saddam had his hands in many pies, overseas terrorism, training terrorists, sponsoring bloodshed...look at the suicide bombers and his bounties paid per head.

3. His "attempt" on Pres. Bush's father was more or less irrelevant..but the fact he had tried meant that Saddam was a direct threat , as not only did he try to kill one President, the fact he had tried, meant he would be trying to kill others as well.

So you have a man with ties to global terrorism, WMD, and a penchant for assassination of heads of state. The potential consequences of leaving him in power are obvious.

4. He had been told a dozen times that there was ample reason to take him and his regime out, he was told to run and he didn't, his armed invasion of Kuwait was reason enough to assess him ads a destabilising force in the Middle East.

Ever wonder why the other ME states didnt intervene? I know Iran did..but note that the other states, including the Saudis did very little, (aside from the usual protests) and more or less gave the Coalition carte blanche?

They wanted him GONE..and when the Coalition invaded, it was a de facto recognition of a de jure condition, and by their silence and inaction, they gave assent. Pres. Bush did what had to be done, what should have been done in the first Gulf War, and to date aside from the leftie morons, no one has really shed a tear for his passing.

I also note that the other ME states have remained silent, and when Pres. Bush met the other heads of state, no acrimony, no recriminations, no threats of reprisal. Anyone notice?

In short, Pres. Bush excised a cancer everyone wanted removed, and ion the long run, may have done more to settle the region down than even we realise. Is oil involved? Yes.

Was the war for oil?

FUCK NO.

If that was the case, why did one of the first big contracts go to China?

He did what had to be done..and thank him for it or not, the case remained that Saddam was a direct threat to the peace and security of many nations. The world changed, the times changed, the Cold War was over, and in terms of what could be called "the big picture"?

His time was up.

Because of what Pres. Bush did, because he had the courage to grasp the nettle, other nations followed suit...the invasion also sent a clear, very strongly worded message to other states planning the same kind of shit

DO NOT FUCK WITH US or we will kick your head in.

He did more for the security of the US and the free world than any one President has ever done..and in future times, his actions will be seen more clearly and more objectively..and in his favour.

Thank you, Pres. Bush.

linda22003
03-13-2010, 07:04 AM
So what Hitler did to the Jews in Europe was also none of our business and we should have never done any thing there ether as Germany had not attacked us.



Well, we didn't do anything until Germany declared war on us. We supplied arms to Britain, but that's about it.

djones520
03-13-2010, 07:14 AM
Well, we didn't do anything until Germany declared war on us. We supplied arms to Britain, but that's about it.

Lend Lease program?

Sonnabend
03-13-2010, 07:14 AM
Well, we didn't do anything until Germany declared war on us.The rest of us wished you had, dear Linda. God knows how many lives might have been saved :(.

The US is not the "worlds policeman" and no one expects them to be, but when you sat still and waited, was one of the biggest mistakes the US ever made.:(

linda22003
03-13-2010, 07:25 AM
The rest of us wished you had, dear Linda. God knows how many lives might have been saved :(.

The US is not the "worlds policeman" and no one expects them to be, but when you sat still and waited, was one of the biggest mistakes the US ever made.:(

I understand that, Sonna. I think that when we talk about "liberals" and their attitude to world responsibilities, we need to remember that it was the right wing in America which formed the isolationist movement, and who did not want a part of a European war at any price.

Sonnabend
03-13-2010, 07:29 AM
I know.

Right idea( at that time, not now by any means)...wrong time.:(

linda22003
03-13-2010, 10:09 AM
I know.

Right idea( at that time, not now by any means)...wrong time.:(

They probably thought so, too.

BadCat
03-13-2010, 10:46 AM
I'm only taking two courses this semester--Constitutional Law and Crime and Punishment. Do either of these sound like they have to do with the Gulf War? I apologize that I have an interest in history and it's effect on today, but...There's no papers or homework here.

You will be such a great addition to the workforce.

You should be practicing saying the following...it will help you advance in your career...

"Would you like fries with that, sir?"

Another welfare queen in training.

NJCardFan
03-13-2010, 12:15 PM
You will be such a great addition to the workforce.

You should be practicing saying the following...it will help you advance in your career...

"Would you like fries with that, sir?"

Another welfare queen in training.

Actually, "paper or plastic" might be more appropriate. I don't believe CITM has the wherewithal to work at a fast food counter.

Seriously though. The only mistake that was made about the Gulf War was having confidence that these people could govern themselves. We evidently didn't see the pissing contest between the Shiites and the Sunni for some reason either. But these were only minor problems. The funny thing is that all we keep hearing is that there is no evidence that Saddam was allowing Iraq to be a terrorist breeding ground. Uh huh. And Al Sarhawi(or however you spell his name) just came in through the back door. The other topic of idiocy are WMD's. The left like to blather on how Bush lied about them. For starters, if Bush was a liar about WMD's, so are these people:http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm

Then, of course, to deny that he had WMD's would be to admit that this never happened(graphic images coming):



http://www.liebreich.com/LDC/Images/Opinion/13505_5.gif
http://www.bobbyshred.com/images/Kurds.jpg

Or perhaps you might want to ask Iran about that. Stupid is as stupid does I guess. Deny it ever happen and maybe it will go away.