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View Full Version : Where do we draw the line between Capitalism and Socialism



Wei Wu Wei
03-23-2010, 10:33 AM
Now, I think that dichotomy in the title is sort of simple, but it's still a good question.


The truth is no absolute system works (absolute capitalism, absolute socialism) and we've never had a system like that. Instead, we define the role of the government by drawing lines on this (and other) issue(s).

For example, on the role of the government, many people consider Police and Fire acceptable, social security some do some don't, same with health care.

There are no right answers though, there is no correct place to draw the line and every generation the lines that determine our societal positions change.

Many people like to think the lines they've drawn up are the correct ones, but they aren't. They are what your generation decided and it worked then.

There's no absolute right answer here, the role of the government evolves just as our society evolves just as our culture evolves. Disagreement is fine, it's how we determine where to draw the lines, but all sides should remember that either extreme isn't going to work (radical capitalism / socialist revolution) and the line we draw is arbitrary and not set in stone.

Those lines we draw seem important, it's upon those that we construct our view of society, and as those lines blur it can seem we are on a slippery slope to one of the extremes but that isn't somehting we should worry about. While every generation changes the lines, they still do draw new ones. We don't just slip away without any concepts or social direction, we just change a little.

Change is inevitable, we shouldn't stick to an ideology simply for the sake of sticking to it.

Wei Wu Wei
03-23-2010, 10:45 AM
With this new health care bill, many people are upset about what they see as government overstepping it's boundaries, and if it does that, what's stopping it from going all the way?

Well, the people are. The government didn't just overstep it's boundaries, the people of our nation are simply redifining what the role of the government is. This happends with every single generation. While it may feel more secure to stick with the society as you've known it, such a thing is simply not possible. Change happens and we shouldn't feel like we are loosing some anchor or some protection, we are simply changing the horizon.

Another example is the Family. For so many generation the family structure was based on rigid lines drawn between gender roles. As that changes, many people felt the entire family structure was at risk, but again, the line is just being re-drawn, not erased.

In 2010, people are more and more (even those morally opposed) noticing that people can be gay and happy and have their relationships without the family structure breaking down, because of our new social concepts that accomodate it.

What is the "proper" role of the government? That's for the people to decide and their decision is ALWAYS arbitrary. It's important to remember that it is arbitrary too when a new generation decides to re-define that role.

Wei Wu Wei
03-23-2010, 10:51 AM
Everyone here would say "this is acceptable, even necessary for the government to do" to some things and "government has no place here" to other things.

There is a presupposed line between those categories, some rule that mediates that role but the fact of the matter is that it's arbitrary. Different people, younger generations, although they disagree on where to draw that line, they also think some things are acceptable and others are not for goverment.

They still have a line, even if it is hard to find it and if it is rarely examined and if it is arbitrary. It's just like everyone's!

Every time someone outlines the "proper" role of government they can be asked questions to make them further and further clarify that defined role, but that's how they work it out. They don't define the role and work from there, they define the role BY working from there.

It's ok to disagree, but before we can have any debate, any discussion, or any sense of understanding we must remember that the concepts and definitions that we ourselves are working with are totally arbitrary.

Megaguns91
03-23-2010, 10:56 AM
This thread is arbitrary.

Wei Wu Wei
03-23-2010, 11:13 AM
There's no such thing as a Capitalist or Socialist nation, they only exist in pure theory. As a nation, we have no clear definition. Our definining boundaries are arbitrary and ever-shifting. No system can withstand the test of time, all things perish, so it is necessary that we continuously evolve our system.

It's interesting that Beck and other conservative talking heads always refer back to "who we are" and issues of personal/national identity, very explicitly highlighting the existential threat posed by societal evolution.

It's less important who are are, and more important who are aren't, because who we aren't is the future. The next moment is a blank slate, there is no future to speak of and no United States in the future. We continuously move through time only by actively engaging it, only by looking forward, only by looking at the vast abyss of what-we-are-not. If we want the United States of America to exist in the future we need to support active change and engagement in the unpredictable winds and motion (just like tall buildings are build to move and sway with heavy winds and earthquakes).

Not-I is the other, it's the Neighbor, and a staple of the Christian faith is to love thy neighbor. In a sense, we (in the future) are our own neighbor, and while the future doesn't have the defined anchors that our language-based minds are comfortable with, we should accept it anyway, love it.

We aren't going to have the Best nation for the future if we fight the future and fight societal evolution.

Again, it's ok to disagree, but just remember that the anchoring points, the conceptual boundaries, the definitions that are used by fundamentalists are not set in stone.

Megaguns91
03-23-2010, 11:25 AM
I'm arbitrary, you're arbitrary, my dog takes an arbitrary on the arbitrary lawn.

We get it.

You don't think anything is black/white.

It's arbitrary.

Aka: gray areas are your fancy.

Alas, this is why we enjoy liberals on the board here and there.

You have a great loquaciousness about you.

Rebel Yell
03-23-2010, 11:27 AM
I'm arbitrary, you're arbitrary, my dog takes an arbitrary on the arbitrary lawn.

We get it.

You don't think anything is black/white.

It's arbitrary.

Aka: gray areas are your fancy.

Alas, this is why we enjoy liberals on the board here and there.

You have a great loquaciousness about you.

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i266/Kaysea14/dont-feed-the-troll.jpg

Megaguns91
03-23-2010, 11:28 AM
http://goodbadandugly2.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/sarcasm.jpg

Wei Wu Wei
03-23-2010, 11:32 AM
I'm arbitrary, you're arbitrary, my dog takes an arbitrary on the arbitrary lawn.

We get it.

You don't think anything is black/white.

It's arbitrary.

Aka: gray areas are your fancy.

Alas, this is why we enjoy liberals on the board here and there.

You have a great loquaciousness about you.

It's one thing to say it in an abstract sense, it's a totally different thing to accept it about yourself.

Rebel Yell
03-23-2010, 11:35 AM
It's one thing to say it in an abstract sense, it's a totally different thing to accept it about yourself.

http://i592.photobucket.com/albums/tt10/andybeast/258Troll_spray.jpg

Megaguns91
03-23-2010, 11:38 AM
Confucius say ""Manipulating words and a well-to-do appearance are seldom the
bearers of peace and harmony."

FeebMaster
03-23-2010, 11:41 AM
I draw it right about here:

http://i40.tinypic.com/4jovio.jpg

Wei Wu Wei
03-23-2010, 11:43 AM
Confucius say ""Manipulating words and a well-to-do appearance are seldom the
bearers of peace and harmony."

Tao Te Ching - Lao Tzu

"The Master leads
by emptying people's minds
and filling their cores,
by weakening their ambition
and toughening their resolve.
He helps people lose everything
they know, everything they desire,
and creates confusion
in those who think that they know."

Megaguns91
03-23-2010, 11:46 AM
Tao Te Ching - Lao Tzu

"The Master leads
by emptying people's minds
and filling their cores,
by weakening their ambition
and toughening their resolve.
He helps people lose everything
they know, everything they desire,
and creates confusion
in those who think that they know."

Fits the description of your "master" in the WH pretty good.

Apache
03-23-2010, 12:16 PM
Tao Te Ching - Lao Tzu

"The Master leads
by emptying people's minds
and filling their cores,
by weakening their ambition
and toughening their resolve.
He helps people lose everything
they know, everything they desire,
and creates confusion
in those who think that they know."

Sell socialism somewhere else....I ain't buyin'.

Wei Wu Wei
03-23-2010, 12:39 PM
Sell socialism somewhere else....I ain't buyin'.

That quote had literally nothing to do with socialism.

Apache
03-23-2010, 12:47 PM
That quote had literally nothing to do with socialism.

Didn't say it did, just makin' sure the right person got the message. I know you're happy the bill passed, many more Americans are not. We don't want big government, we don't want a nanny state, we don't want to work for Zero an extra 3 months...

Wei Wu Wei
03-23-2010, 12:51 PM
Didn't say it did, just makin' sure the right person got the message. I know you're happy the bill passed

No Actually I'm not.

I did not support this bill. I recognize some good things will happen and in fact it sounds pretty decent up until 2014 but I have been strictly opposed to this bill since the Senate first passed it in December and I still am (until future legislation is passed to fix this)

Apache
03-23-2010, 01:53 PM
No Actually I'm not.

I did not support this bill. I recognize some good things will happen and in fact it sounds pretty decent up until 2014 but I have been strictly opposed to this bill since the Senate first passed it in December and I still am (until future legislation is passed to fix this)

NOTHING about that bill is good! It won't work the way they say its supposed to, and they know that. They want CONTROL. Control of you, your money, your life...

wilbur
03-23-2010, 02:01 PM
NOTHING about that bill is good! It won't work the way they say its supposed to, and they know that. They want CONTROL. Control of you, your money, your life...

The conspiracy is vast.

Apache
03-23-2010, 02:19 PM
The conspiracy is vast.

:rolleyes:

Megaguns91
03-23-2010, 02:35 PM
The conspiracy is vast.

Thy intellect is not.

NJCardFan
03-23-2010, 04:04 PM
The conspiracy is vast.

Wilbur, name me 1 social program that isn't:

A)An incredible bureaucracy
B)An incredible clusterfusk
C)An incredible boondoggle
D)Incredibly abused

Just 1 is all I ask.

PoliCon
03-23-2010, 04:22 PM
(until future legislation is passed to fix this)The only way to fix it - is to REPEAL IT. :rolleyes:

Apache
03-23-2010, 05:14 PM
Wilbur, name me 1 social program that isn't:

A)An incredible bureaucracy
B)An incredible clusterfusk
C)An incredible boondoggle
D)Incredibly abused

Just 1 is all I ask.

Hope you brought a chair and some beer, you're going to be waiting a long time...

Zathras
03-23-2010, 07:17 PM
The conspiracy is vast.

Says the brainwashed AGW cultist.

NJCardFan
03-23-2010, 07:24 PM
Hope you brought a chair and some beer, you're going to be waiting a long time...
That or he'll...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mNDHTfdn1A

Wei Wu Wei
03-23-2010, 07:32 PM
NOTHING about that bill is good! It won't work the way they say its supposed to, and they know that. They want CONTROL. Control of you, your money, your life...

Who is "they"? The President? He's leaving power in no more than 6 years. The congress? They're losing their seats.

Who exactly is controlling what part of your life by instituting new regulations on insurance companies for the benefit of consumers?

Apache
03-23-2010, 07:32 PM
That or he'll...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mNDHTfdn1A

Nice. :D

Apache
03-23-2010, 07:40 PM
Who is "they"? The President? He's leaving power in no more than 6 years. The congress? They're losing their seats.

Who exactly is controlling what part of your life by instituting new regulations on insurance companies for the benefit of consumers?

To your first line: Please motherfucker don't be so goddamn dense! I am NOT playing that game, you know damn well I'm talking about the Left.

To your second line:Please motherfucker don't be so goddamn dense! I am NOT playing that game, you know damn well I'm talking about the Left.


Clear?

Wei Wu Wei
03-23-2010, 07:41 PM
Wilbur, name me 1 social program that isn't:

A)An incredible bureaucracy
B)An incredible clusterfusk
C)An incredible boondoggle
D)Incredibly abused

Just 1 is all I ask.

Bureaucracy can't be used as a negative for an organization, any large organization requires a bureaucracy to run, that's just inherent to large systems. We may not always like them but it's the best method we have (this argument is also often used to support Capitalism).

Clusterfuck? As in "unsuccessful"? as in "not as profitable as a private sector business"? This is what people mean when they say that these programs are not efficient or effective, that they aren't running like a business. That's not what they are supposed to do. They aren't businesses, they were made for the precise reason of NOT having a business-structure.

Boondoggle? well that's a judgment call, but Social Security and Medicare have kept many people out of poverty and sickness so even if they aren't running profits I'd say these are no boondoggles. Also, how about the VA? I think the VA is good (despite some problems) and should be further supported by the government.

Every system is abused. Criticizing a system for not being perfect is pointless because no system stands up to that standard.

A well designed universal health care system would improve health, improve worker productivity, save many lives (of real people just like the person you love most, not just a statistic), and help the debt (if nothing is done, the price would be uncomparable).

A lot of people here seem to want to choose between good and perfect but that's not how things work. I would think you guys would know that. Usually it's between bad and worse, and frankly put I don't like this health care bill either, but bad is better than worse.

Wei Wu Wei
03-23-2010, 07:43 PM
To your first line: Please motherfucker don't be so goddamn dense! I am NOT playing that game, you know damn well I'm talking about the Left.

To your second line:Please motherfucker don't be so goddamn dense! I am NOT playing that game, you know damn well I'm talking about the Left.


Clear?

No you just replaced one empty word (They) for another empty word (Left). It sounds like an empty signifier standing in for the paranoiac Big Other.

Who is the Left? Do they have leaders? Does the Left have organized meetings of Left? How does one become one of the Left? Is there such a thing as the Right?

Apache
03-25-2010, 12:17 PM
No you just replaced one empty word (They) for another empty word (Left). It sounds like an empty signifier standing in for the paranoiac Big Other.

Who is the Left? Do they have leaders? Does the Left have organized meetings of Left? How does one become one of the Left? Is there such a thing as the Right?

Into semantics(sp?) I see....


Lemme know when you grow up, mmk?

Megaguns91
03-25-2010, 12:39 PM
No you just replaced one empty word (They) for another empty word (Left). It sounds like an empty signifier standing in for the paranoiac Big Other.

Who is the Left? Do they have leaders? Does the Left have organized meetings of Left? How does one become one of the Left? Is there such a thing as the Right?

Poor Wee Wee has no sense of direction. It's no wonder he's always here, trolling. He cant find his way anywhere else.

marinejcksn
03-25-2010, 03:12 PM
Boondoggle? well that's a judgment call, but Social Security and Medicare have kept many people out of poverty and sickness so even if they aren't running profits I'd say these are no boondoggles.

http://www.ncpa.org/images/1728.png

I guess it's not a Boondoggle so much as it is theft from our children and grandchildren, huh?

http://wutbumperstickers.com/c/obama_oops_bumper_sticker-p128969061044846558tmn6_400.jpg

AmPat
03-25-2010, 04:05 PM
Now, I think that dichotomy in the title is sort of simple, but it's still a good question.
Change is inevitable, we shouldn't stick to an ideology simply for the sake of sticking to it.
We also shouldn't change for the sake of change. Mr Hope and Change said we were the best country in the world, I hope you'll join me as I try and change it.

PoliCon
03-25-2010, 04:15 PM
Bureaucracy can't be used as a negative for an organization, any large organization requires a bureaucracy to run, that's just inherent to large systems. We may not always like them but it's the best method we have (this argument is also often used to support Capitalism).

BUREAUCRACY:

Government by permanent office-holders. The term was coined in eighteenth-century France, and first appeared in English in 1818, in both cases with pejorative overtones built in from the beginning. The pejorative overtones are still current in everyday usage and in semi-jocular references to such maxims of bureaucracy as Parkinson's Law (‘Work expands to fill the time available for it’).

(from the answers.com political dictionary)

NJCardFan
03-26-2010, 12:14 AM
When Medicare was imposed (http://illinoisreview.typepad.com/illinoisreview/2009/07/health-care-reform-cost-projections-are-they-realistic.html)(1965), the CBO numbers were that it was going to cost $12 billion in 26 years. By the end of that 26 years, Medicare ended up costing tax payers $400 billion. That, my little pea brained friend, is what's called an incredible boondoggle. As for Social Security (http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/2010/03/25/social-security-in-the-red/), as of today, March 25, 2010, it is now in the red. This, my little pea brained friend, is called an incredible clusterfuck as well as a boondoggle. And both are incredible bureaucracies. And both are incredibly abused.

AmPat
03-26-2010, 07:57 AM
Yeah, but the current crop of Marxist-Socialist furers, uh, leaders, has it all figured out. They are much smarter than any other historical figures who have previously enslaved their populations, so we shouldn't fear the 0-for-history zero batting average of this type government. We must put aside our historically proven fears and embrace the Dear Leader's philosophy of take from the productive and give to the worthless.

We should all be comforted by the knowledge that, should anything happen to Comrade Maobama, we have Joe Plagiarize-marginalize and label opponents with expletives Biden on deck. Failing that, Queen Nancy PeeLousy is third in line to lead us into the New Freedom that can only be experienced through complete womb to the tomb government care.

I'm comforted already knowing that our ruling class has decided to pass this bankrupting, industry destroying legislation against a majority dissent, without being bothered to read it or address any of the concerns regarding the obvious flaws.

What's not to like?:rolleyes: