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Gingersnap
04-16-2010, 11:02 AM
Court tosses CU gun ban

Panel says campus is subject to concealed-carry law
By Carlos Illescas and Monte Whaley

The Denver Post
Posted: 04/16/2010 01:00:00 AM MDT
Updated: 04/16/2010 05:55:21 AM MDT

The Colorado Court of Appeals ruled Thursday that the University of Colorado has no authority to bar students or visitors from lawfully carrying guns on campus.

The appeals court said an El Paso County district judge was wrong to dismiss a challenge filed by a group called Students for Concealed Carry on Campus and three students from the University of Colorado.

The CU Board of Regents adopted a ban on all guns on campuses, believing the statewide Concealed Carry Act (CCA) did not apply to universities.

But the court found that the legislature, in standardizing the rules governing concealed weapons from county to county through the CCA of 2003, specifically intended the act to apply everywhere in the state except in a handful of places listed in the statute, like K-12 schools.

Attorney Jim Manley, who represents the plaintiffs, called the ruling "a real victory for individual freedom" and the law.

"When the legislature says statewide, it means statewide," said Manley, an attorney for the Mountain States Legal Foundation. "The regents wanted to read in an exception that didn't exist. The court of appeals rejected that."

This will get thrashed out in our supreme court but the decision is encouraging. :)

Denver Post (http://www.denverpost.com/ci_14894750)

Sonnabend
04-16-2010, 11:17 AM
So Colorado finally came to their senses..pity it came too late for Colombine. :(

What would have happened if armed students had killed Klebold and Harris? All guns banned on campus.,..except of course for the ones Klebiold and Harris carried. :mad:

Gingersnap
04-16-2010, 11:31 AM
So Colorado finally came to their senses..pity it came too late for Colombine. :(

What would have happened if armed students had killed Klebold and Harris? All guns banned on campus.,..except of course for the ones Klebiold and Harris carried. :mad:

Uh, this ruling wouldn't have done anything about Columbine. K-12 schools are specifically exempted from concealed or open carry laws in Colorado.

noonwitch
04-16-2010, 01:19 PM
Uh, this ruling wouldn't have done anything about Columbine. K-12 schools are specifically exempted from concealed or open carry laws in Colorado.



And it will remain that way. People under 18 are technically forbidden from having CCW permits or from being allowed to carry firearms, except with parental permission on private property (hunting exceptions). There are probably some high school teachers who would like to be able to carry at work. I would imagine a well-trained armed teacher with either a law enforcement backround or a military backround could have probably prevented some of the killings at Columbine.


College students are mostly over 18 and legal adults. I really am not sure if I agree or disagree with the policy-Colorado can make their own decision, imo. When I was in college, the idea of a student gunman picking off fellow students was almost unheard of. It's a different world today.

M21
04-16-2010, 01:43 PM
Now though you have MANY college students who are combat Vets. I know several here who up until now were unable to carry on campus.

malloc
04-16-2010, 02:51 PM
And it will remain that way. People under 18 are technically forbidden from having CCW permits or from being allowed to carry firearms, except with parental permission on private property (hunting exceptions). There are probably some high school teachers who would like to be able to carry at work. I would imagine a well-trained armed teacher with either a law enforcement backround or a military backround could have probably prevented some of the killings at Columbine.


College students are mostly over 18 and legal adults. I really am not sure if I agree or disagree with the policy-Colorado can make their own decision, imo. When I was in college, the idea of a student gunman picking off fellow students was almost unheard of. It's a different world today.


In most states, including AZ, one of the most gun friendly states, CCW or handgun open carry is limited to those 21 and over.

It doesn't really take a well trained, armed teacher with a background in law enforcement or the military to prevent killings. All it takes an armed, adequately trained teacher who is afraid for his life and the lives of his students. Having a law enforcement or military background isn't a pre-requisite for proper action, and I do hope people understand this. I may have a military background, but that is long behind me, and the USMC taught me how to employ a rifle, machine guns, and grenade launchers in battle, not pistols in a survival situation. Nowadays, I get more range and practice time per week than any police officer I know or any police officer the police officers I know, know. <-- That is not a typo. :D So, just a normal Joe, not a former cop or soldier, can be the difference between students' life and death on these campuses. Teachers in grade schools, middle schools and high schools should be allowed to carry if they have a State issued CCW regardless if they were police officers or not.

noonwitch
04-16-2010, 03:13 PM
In most states, including AZ, one of the most gun friendly states, CCW or handgun open carry is limited to those 21 and over.

It doesn't really take a well trained, armed teacher with a background in law enforcement or the military to prevent killings. All it takes an armed, adequately trained teacher who is afraid for his life and the lives of his students. Having a law enforcement or military background isn't a pre-requisite for proper action, and I do hope people understand this. I may have a military background, but that is long behind me, and the USMC taught me how to employ a rifle, machine guns, and grenade launchers in battle, not pistols in a survival situation. Nowadays, I get more range and practice time per week than any police officer I know or any police officer the police officers I know, know. <-- That is not a typo. :D So, just a normal Joe, not a former cop or soldier, can be the difference between students' life and death on these campuses. Teachers in grade schools, middle schools and high schools should be allowed to carry if they have a State issued CCW regardless if they were police officers or not.



That's why I'm basically neutral on gun issues. Guns are not something I grew up with and I'm not familiar with them, so I tend to come down on the side of gun owners, since they do know what they are talking about.

High schools can be chaotic, so I would guess that the schools would want some kind of training requirement for a teacher who wants to carry on grounds. Or else they would want some kind of liability waiver.

malloc
04-16-2010, 03:23 PM
That's why I'm basically neutral on gun issues. Guns are not something I grew up with and I'm not familiar with them, so I tend to come down on the side of gun owners, since they do know what they are talking about.

High schools can be chaotic, so I would guess that the schools would want some kind of training requirement for a teacher who wants to carry on grounds. Or else they would want some kind of liability waiver.

You know how some states require you to have a "motorcycle endorsement" on your driver's license, or maybe an "instrument flight rating" on your pilots license if you want to drive a motorcycle or fly a plane at night? I would like to see state legislatures work with their statewide police offices and come up with a training requirement for a "school grounds endorsement" to a CCW.

The libertarian in me is saying, "We are all responsible for our own actions, therefore we should be able to carry whenever, wherever." However, the realist in me remembers high school. Out on the street, if some punk kid picks up a rock or a board and says, "I'm going to kill you!", he's going to get lit up. In a hormonally raging 15 year old on a high school campus, that may not be the appropriate initial response. So I can see the need for additional training.

Gingersnap
04-16-2010, 04:26 PM
In the wake of Columbine (we have to use that exact phrase - it's a state law), there was a lot of talk about allowing teachers to carry if they met certain qualifications. There's still a lot of talk about it but it hasn't gone anywhere.

There are difficult issues to resolve with teacher-carry. Some crazy people who would normally opt for suicide-by-cop might target schools for the novelty value of suicide-by-math teacher. In a K-12 setting where it is likely that the teacher and the killer have a relationship, could the teacher shoot the student? What about out-of-control teen-aged boys who might threaten a teacher just to see if the teacher has a gun?

Beyond all that, would the presence of armed teachers really make a difference in these shootings? A lot (maybe most) of the shootings in grade schools and high schools have started outdoors. Most of the victims have been shot as they walked or stood outside the school. Even if the shooter keeps going, what are the odds that he or she will choose to enter the classroom of an armed teacher? Teachers can't abandon their students and run out into the hall to confront the killers.

In a college setting things are much different. The killer has no idea who might be armed in any setting (indoors or out). The natural hesitation adults have about shooting in the presence of random, unrestrained children is gone. It's just different.

malloc
04-16-2010, 04:45 PM
There are difficult issues to resolve with teacher-carry. Some crazy people who would normally opt for suicide-by-cop might target schools for the novelty value of suicide-by-math teacher.

They might, but there's no reason to leave students unprotected and easy prey over a hypothetical risk which may or may not exist.



In a K-12 setting where it is likely that the teacher and the killer have a relationship, could the teacher shoot the student? What about out-of-control teen-aged boys who might threaten a teacher just to see if the teacher has a gun?


The standard, in most states, on the authorized use of deadly force is usually something along the lines of; "When and to the degree a reasonable person would believe that deadly physical force is immediately necessary to protect himself or others against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful deadly physical force."

I don't think it's a very complicated or difficult standard to hold people to. No matter the relationship or age of the aggressor, this standard can apply. Now if a 15 year old boy wielding only a stick or scissors attacked a 240 lb athletic male gym teacher, I don't think anyone would see the use of physical deadly force as justified. However, if this same 15 year old boy attacked a 105 lb small female chemistry teacher with a pair of scissors, then the "reasonable person's belief" changes.



Beyond all that, would the presence of armed teachers really make a difference in these shootings? A lot (maybe most) of the shootings in grade schools and high schools have started outdoors. Most of the victims have been shot as they walked or stood outside the school. Even if the shooter keeps going, what are the odds that he or she will choose to enter the classroom of an armed teacher? Teachers can't abandon their students and run out into the hall to confront the killers.


At Columbine, Patti Nielson, age 35 was injured, and Dave Sanders, age 47 was killed. These were two faculty members that came in direct contact with the killers. If just one of them had been armed, and had decent situational awareness, then it's very possible that the killing efficiency of the murdering duo would have been reduced by half. So, the shooter doesn't have to enter a classroom to encounter faculty, and the possibily of encountering armed faculty didn't even have to be taken into account by Harris or Klebold. The entire campus was one big shooting gallery with nothing to stop them. That's they way they saw it, and that's what they turned it into.

Gingersnap
04-16-2010, 04:55 PM
I'm as pro-gun as anybody you will meet on this board but these issues are very real to us out here.

There's a big question about whether or not a teacher has the emotional fortitude to shoot a student she knows well. If she hesitated, how would that change the dynamics? It's completely unlikely that any significant percentage of teachers would want to carry and would qualify for it so the odds are still very poor that an armed teacher would encounter the killer in the hall.

Full-Auto
04-16-2010, 05:08 PM
Wow, another sound Constitutional decision by a court. There must be something in the water. Finally.