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CaughtintheMiddle1990
04-18-2010, 10:03 PM
Question for conservatives--
Reagan as you know only narrowly lost the GOP nomination to Ford in the 1976 primaries. If Reagan had instead won the nomination, do you think he could've beaten Carter in '76...If so what do you think '77 to '81 would've been like without Carter and with Reagan 4 years earlier?
Just a question seeing as a lot of you know a lot more about the Reagan presidency than I do.
Also, if Ford had tapped Reagan to be his running mate in '76, do you think he could've won? I think if asked to be the VP he would've said yes, as in 1980 Reagan seriously considered making Ford his running mate.

Kay
04-18-2010, 10:05 PM
I believe Patriot45 will be along shortly with a reply.

:D

Rockntractor
04-18-2010, 10:11 PM
I believe Patriot45 will be along shortly with a reply.

:D
I think the old fart is napping!

Articulate_Ape
04-18-2010, 10:12 PM
Question for conservatives--
Reagan as you know only narrowly lost the GOP nomination to Ford in the 1976 primaries. If Reagan had instead won the nomination, do you think he could've beaten Carter in '76...If so what do you think '77 to '81 would've been like without Carter and with Reagan 4 years earlier?
Just a question seeing as a lot of you know a lot more about the Reagan presidency than I do.
Also, if Ford had tapped Reagan to be his running mate in '76, do you think he could've won? I think if asked to be the VP he would've said yes, as in 1980 Reagan seriously considered making Ford his running mate.

I find such questions to be on the same par with the popular YouTube videos of "Hitler finds out...". Such "what ifs" are an intellectual waste of time unless for pure amusement. The problem with historical "what ifs" is that to change even a small aspect of the past you have to consider all of the ramifications of that change; the ripple effect, if you will. For this reason, any answer to your question will likely be wrong.

lacarnut
04-18-2010, 10:17 PM
I believe Patriot45 will be along shortly with a reply.

:D

C.I.T.M.1990 must be writing a book.

JBG
04-18-2010, 10:21 PM
Question for conservatives--
Reagan as you know only narrowly lost the GOP nomination to Ford in the 1976 primaries. If Reagan had instead won the nomination, do you think he could've beaten Carter in '76...If so what do you think '77 to '81 would've been like without Carter and with Reagan 4 years earlier?
Just a question seeing as a lot of you know a lot more about the Reagan presidency than I do.
Also, if Ford had tapped Reagan to be his running mate in '76, do you think he could've won? I think if asked to be the VP he would've said yes, as in 1980 Reagan seriously considered making Ford his running mate.No.

In 1976, the country was revolted by Watergate, and the poorly handled Presidential pardon of Nixon. I supported the pardon, even though I was then, and remain, a liberal Democrat. I thought Ford should openly have admitted that Nixon had to be given comfort to leave office without a fight.

As for that election, Nixon's henchpeople were still on trial. "All the President's Men" was in the movie theatre, having come out in April 1976. While the economy was improving, no one trusted it. From what I remember, no Republican was going to win, nationwide, that year.

patriot45
04-18-2010, 10:27 PM
Question for conservatives--
Reagan as you know only narrowly lost the GOP nomination to Ford in the 1976 primaries. If Reagan had instead won the nomination, do you think he could've beaten Carter in '76...If so what do you think '77 to '81 would've been like without Carter and with Reagan 4 years earlier?
Just a question seeing as a lot of you know a lot more about the Reagan presidency than I do.
Also, if Ford had tapped Reagan to be his running mate in '76, do you think he could've won? I think if asked to be the VP he would've said yes, as in 1980 Reagan seriously considered making Ford his running mate.

Question: Did you think Reagan was a great president or do you think carter was a great president?
I think carter would have been great if he had a backbone and wasn't a flaming liberal douche bag!
But the past is gone and you libs do not learn from mistakes you just make bigger ones.

These years will never be looked back on as the good old years.

patriot45
04-18-2010, 10:28 PM
I believe Patriot45 will be along shortly with a reply.

:D

Uh oh! I'm getting predictable! :D

patriot45
04-18-2010, 10:31 PM
C.I.T.M.1990 must be writing a book.

I think its his little experiment on a conservative board! She thinks this is getting "dirt" on us! :D
Or she is just a inquisitive kid!

patriot45
04-18-2010, 10:32 PM
I think the old fart is napping!

Your post woke me up! Thanks. :cool:

Articulate_Ape
04-18-2010, 10:34 PM
Is CITM a dude are a broad? I'm confused.

patriot45
04-18-2010, 10:35 PM
Is CITM a dude are a broad? I'm confused.

I play it safe! I'm still not sure about sweet Poli! :D

lacarnut
04-18-2010, 10:49 PM
Is CITM a dude are a broad? I'm confused.

Could be one of those transgender types. Liberals are so f. up, they don't know whether they want to be pitching or catching.

NJCardFan
04-18-2010, 11:33 PM
Is CITM a dude are a broad?

Yes.

Articulate_Ape
04-18-2010, 11:38 PM
Yes.

heh.

NJCardFan
04-18-2010, 11:49 PM
No.

In 1976, the country was revolted by Watergate, and the poorly handled Presidential pardon of Nixon. I supported the pardon, even though I was then, and remain, a liberal Democrat. I thought Ford should openly have admitted that Nixon had to be given comfort to leave office without a fight.

As for that election, Nixon's henchpeople were still on trial. "All the President's Men" was in the movie theatre, having come out in April 1976. While the economy was improving, no one trusted it. From what I remember, no Republican was going to win, nationwide, that year.
Eh. Carter barely, and I do mean barely beat Ford. IIRC this went down to the wire. Now, if Reagan had won the primary, I believe he would have beaten Carter. Reagan had it all over Ford when it came to charisma and they didn't call him the Great Communicator for nothing. I don't think he would have beaten Carter in the same ass whuppin manner he did in 1980 but I think he would have beaten him. That said, if Reagan were president starting in 1977, the Iran/Hostage crisis would have never come to pass. The economy would have continued to grow. And the disaster that was the Carter years would have never happened. What would have been interesting would have been his running mate. He chose Bush because he needed a center-right running mate. We didn't have that in '76.

JBG
04-19-2010, 12:18 AM
Eh. Carter barely, and I do mean barely beat Ford. IIRC this went down to the wire. Now, if Reagan had won the primary, I believe he would have beaten Carter.Reagan was still too "scary". The only reason Reagan gained such traction was the Carter debacle that you so well remember and remind us of.

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That said, if Reagan were president starting in 1977, the Iran/Hostage crisis would have never come to pass. The economy would have continued to grow. And the disaster that was the Carter years would have never happened. Except ironically it took that disaster to overcome people's fear of genuine conservatism. Remember we were still far closer to the Great Depression and Democrats were still the default choice of voters.
What would have been interesting would have been his running mate. He chose Bush because he needed a center-right running mate. We didn't have that in '76.Sure Bush was available in 1976 and not tainted by the scandals.

CaughtintheMiddle1990
04-19-2010, 02:07 AM
Question: Did you think Reagan was a great president or do you think carter was a great president?
I think carter would have been great if he had a backbone and wasn't a flaming liberal douche bag!
But the past is gone and you libs do not learn from mistakes you just make bigger ones.

These years will never be looked back on as the good old years.

I think Reagan was a good president except he made mistakes economically and caved a little too much on some issues. He did however restore much of the faith and optimism that was lost during the late 60s, and for that he should be applauded. Carter besides lacking a back bone was very arrogant and self righteous, and still is to this day. He had a chance to do what Reagan did--build a political coalition that could've sustained his party. He didn't, and his failures cost the Democratic Party the White House for over a decade. He actually wasn't that liberal as president, at least economically, more of a centrist. He was just an ineffective administrator.
Particularly in 1976, Reagan and Carter weren't too different in their political views. One was a good leader and effective as president, the other wasn't. But their political stances weren't too far apart. Carter's gotten more liberal as he's gotten older.

Constitutionally Speaking
04-19-2010, 06:30 AM
Question for conservatives--
Reagan as you know only narrowly lost the GOP nomination to Ford in the 1976 primaries. If Reagan had instead won the nomination, do you think he could've beaten Carter in '76...If so what do you think '77 to '81 would've been like without Carter and with Reagan 4 years earlier?
Just a question seeing as a lot of you know a lot more about the Reagan presidency than I do.
Also, if Ford had tapped Reagan to be his running mate in '76, do you think he could've won? I think if asked to be the VP he would've said yes, as in 1980 Reagan seriously considered making Ford his running mate.


Actually Ford did try to get Reagan to be his VP, but Reagan wanted a more active role than the traditional VP of the time. Ford did not go for that.

It is very hard to speculate what would have happened. IF Reagan could have beaten Carter, we would not have the issues in the Middle East that we have now, but that is only IF.

IF he had won the nomination and lost to Carter, we NEVER would have had him as President, and we likely would be the economic equivalent of Italy, and the Military equivalent of France. The Soviet Union would be far more powerful than they are now and Islamic terrorists would be a FAR bigger issue than they are now.

CaughtintheMiddle1990
04-19-2010, 07:48 AM
Question: Did you think Reagan was a great president or do you think carter was a great president?
I think carter would have been great if he had a backbone and wasn't a flaming liberal douche bag!
But the past is gone and you libs do not learn from mistakes you just make bigger ones.

These years will never be looked back on as the good old years.


Actually Ford did try to get Reagan to be his VP, but Reagan wanted a more active role than the traditional VP of the time. Ford did not go for that.

It is very hard to speculate what would have happened. IF Reagan could have beaten Carter, we would not have the issues in the Middle East that we have now, but that is only IF.

IF he had won the nomination and lost to Carter, we NEVER would have had him as President, and we likely would be the economic equivalent of Italy, and the Military equivalent of France. The Soviet Union would be far more powerful than they are now and Islamic terrorists would be a FAR bigger issue than they are now.

I heard the first part the opposite--that Reagan when running in '80 wanted to get Ford (as not only did he need a moderate running mate but despite their political differences respected Ford) as his running mate but Ford wanted to almost be a co-president, which Reagan wouldn't go for. As it was, quite a few Nixon/Ford people (Al Haig is one major example) found a place in the Reagan Administration. http://www.newsweek.com/id/56688

You know Reagan was on Nixon's short list to replace Agnew as VP in 1973. He was one of the leading candidates in the Senate. He wasn't Nixon's first choice--that was John Conally. Had Reagan replaced Agnew in '73, we might've seen a Reagan presidency as early as 1974.

And I don't know that we wouldn't have the Middle East issues we have now. Those have been long building, before Reagan or Carter and can't be pinned on either. Were there things done in the 70s by Carter that helped us along the path to where we are now? Definately! But I think our problems with the Mid East go back further than that..and our difference with them is also a culturally one.

And you don't think if Reagan was the nominee in '76 and lost he wouldn't have pulled a Nixon and ran again in '80? Carter would've done what Carter did and screwed up anyway, leaving the door open for Reagan. He might've even netted more votes in 1980 if he had been the nominee in '76 because of the increased exposure just four years earlier.

Sonnabend
04-19-2010, 08:35 AM
Were there things done in the 70s by Carter that helped us along the path to where we are now?

Yes.

Carter, by his inaction on the hostage crisis, gave Iran the impetus to believe they could do whatever they damned well please. He is and was an appeaser and a fool.

noonwitch
04-19-2010, 08:51 AM
I don't think Reagan would have beat Carter in 1976, I don't think any republican could have won. It was fall out from Watergate.


If Reagan had been the nominee, and had won and lost, he probably wouldn't have been the nominee in 1980.

NJCardFan
04-19-2010, 10:43 AM
I don't think Reagan would have beat Carter in 1976, I don't think any republican could have won. It was fall out from Watergate.


If Reagan had been the nominee, and had won and lost, he probably wouldn't have been the nominee in 1980.

As I said, not exactly. Ford pardoned Nixon and still nearly beat Carter. Reagan could have run on a platform of fixing the GOP as well as continuing the economic growth. He would have still won. Not as convincingly as 1980 but he still would have won. His victory, IMO, would have been equal to Bush's win over Kerry. You have to remember that Reagan was popular and he was liked. Essentially, he was Obama before there was an Obama. Carter was just a stooge. He was definitely not a leader.

noonwitch
04-19-2010, 11:52 AM
As I said, not exactly. Ford pardoned Nixon and still nearly beat Carter. Reagan could have run on a platform of fixing the GOP as well as continuing the economic growth. He would have still won. Not as convincingly as 1980 but he still would have won. His victory, IMO, would have been equal to Bush's win over Kerry. You have to remember that Reagan was popular and he was liked. Essentially, he was Obama before there was an Obama. Carter was just a stooge. He was definitely not a leader.


In 1976, the moderate republicans were still running the party. Reagan scared the crap out of them, and, as history shows, rightfully so-Reagan changed the GOP for the next 25 years, and counting. Nixon was not as conservative as Reagan, nor was Ford. I think Carter would have still won, because it took the events of his presidency and things like the Iranian revolution for moderate americans of either party to vote for someone as conservative as Reagan was.

JBG
04-19-2010, 12:03 PM
I think Reagan was a good president except he made mistakes economically and caved a little too much on some issues.Remember his ministrations had to pass Congress. He did what he could unilaterally, such as abolishing price controls on the oil industry eight (8) days in ofice.

He did however restore much of the faith and optimism that was lost during the late 60s, and for that he should be applauded.Absolutely. He highlighted the President's role as a "monarch" as well as his role as a "prime minister". He used his "monarch" role very effectively.


Carter besides lacking a back bone was very arrogant and self righteous, and still is to this day. He had a chance to do what Reagan did--build a political coalition that could've sustained his party. He didn't, and his failures cost the Democratic Party the White House for over a decade. He actually wasn't that liberal as president, at least economically, more of a centrist. He was just an ineffective administrator.Actually, he started out with "Club of Rome" or "limits to growth" economic policies that were at the heart of left-wing think tank product. His view, on oil, for example, was that not much remained to be discovered so that the maximum benefit could be obtained by fiddling with price controls. When certain distortions not particularly interesting to lay out on this board (google "small refiner bias" or "crude oil entitlements") essentially blew up the control mechanism, climaxing in gas lines during the Spring of 1979 he cautiously relented. He had to be dragged kicking and screaming into signing off o fthe cut in capital gains tax rates. He was no centrist, despite his phony protestations during the 1976 campaign. William Safire accurately called him "Southern Fried McGovern".


Particularly in 1976, Reagan and Carter weren't too different in their political views. One was a good leader and effective as president, the other wasn't. But their political stances weren't too far apart. Carter's gotten more liberal as he's gotten older.See above. It is true that his views have moved far to the Left but so has the overall politics of the Democratic Party. Or else why was much of Reagan's senior advisory staff and Cabinet populated by ex-Democrats like himself?

As I said, not exactly. Ford pardoned Nixon and still nearly beat Carter. Reagan could have run on a platform of fixing the GOP as well as continuing the economic growth. He would have still won. Not as convincingly as 1980 but he still would have won. His victory, IMO, would have been equal to Bush's win over Kerry. You have to remember that Reagan was popular and he was liked. Essentially, he was Obama before there was an Obama. Carter was just a stooge. He was definitely not a leader.Keep in mind, he would have run after a divisive battle, knocking off an incumbent. It's much harder to rail against your own parties' record than the Democrats.

As it was, Carter created the "perfect storm" with messy and ineffective foreign and economic policies.

JBG
04-19-2010, 01:03 PM
In 1976, the moderate republicans were still running the party. Reagan scared the crap out of them, and, as history shows, rightfully so-Reagan changed the GOP for the next 25 years, and counting. Nixon was not as conservative as Reagan, nor was Ford. I think Carter would have still won, because it took the events of his presidency and things like the Iranian revolution for moderate americans of either party to vote for someone as conservative as Reagan was.Nixon was not a conservative or a liberal. He was an unprincipled thug, period. Ford was in fact a moderate Republican.

CaughtintheMiddle1990
04-19-2010, 05:36 PM
Nixon was not a conservative or a liberal. He was an unprincipled thug, period. Ford was in fact a moderate Republican.

Oh, I think Nixon had principles. There were certain definate stances on things, and he absolutely hated what he called the ''Eastern Liberal Establishment'' (the Kennedys, Liberal Democrats, News Media, etc) who he felt were elitist and hated him. He did quite a few things, some liberal and some conservative. However, in '72 he basically destroyed the Democratic Party's thirty year command of politics and established the political coalition that helped Reagan into the White House--the Great Silent Majority. People and demographics who for most of their lives voted Democrat voted GOP for Nixon in '72, and many of those demographics remained in place for Reagan in '80 and '84. Had Nixon's personality problems not crashed his presidency, he might've been the GOP's standard bearer instead of Reagan--Look at his win in '72, its comparable with Reagan's in '84--Before all of the Watergate and other scandals erupted.

CaughtintheMiddle1990
04-19-2010, 05:40 PM
Nixon was not a conservative or a liberal. He was an unprincipled thug, period. Ford was in fact a moderate Republican.


In 1976, the moderate republicans were still running the party. Reagan scared the crap out of them, and, as history shows, rightfully so-Reagan changed the GOP for the next 25 years, and counting. Nixon was not as conservative as Reagan, nor was Ford. I think Carter would have still won, because it took the events of his presidency and things like the Iranian revolution for moderate americans of either party to vote for someone as conservative as Reagan was.

In the same example though, Nixon moved the party to a more modern stance. Remember, before Nixon a majority of the party were isolationists and what would probably be called libertarians today--people like Robert Taft, Goldwater, etc--These were the big party men. Nixon like Reagan was elected because the presidency before him failed and left the country in shambles. I'd say what LBJ did to America with Vietinam is comparable to how Carter left America due to the Hostage Situation, the Energy Crisis, etc. Both left America feeling depressed, not as confidant or optimistic, tense and distrustful. Both rode in as the men who would fix America's spirit. Nixon had a chance to (though it can be argued that from the very day he walked in office he was hated by the Hippies--he never did enough and he was always the bad guy in their eyes) and failed; Reagan succeeded.

CaughtintheMiddle1990
04-19-2010, 05:44 PM
No.

In 1976, the country was revolted by Watergate, and the poorly handled Presidential pardon of Nixon. I supported the pardon, even though I was then, and remain, a liberal Democrat. I thought Ford should openly have admitted that Nixon had to be given comfort to leave office without a fight.


I don't know if you know but just one month after resigning Nixon had a massive Pulmonary Embolism (blood clot in the lung) that nearly killed him. I've read they removed an 18 inch clot leading to his heart, and they had him in surgery for over 3 hours; He went into shock and his blood pressure fell to 60/0. He hovered in a coma for a few days and it seemed he was going to die.

I honestly think had he not been pardoned and went to trial he would've died. The Hippies and Democrats would've loved that. So I applaud Ford's pardoning of Nixon too.

Constitutionally Speaking
04-19-2010, 07:00 PM
I don't think Reagan would have beat Carter in 1976, I don't think any republican could have won. It was fall out from Watergate.


If Reagan had been the nominee, and had won and lost, he probably wouldn't have been the nominee in 1980.


I think you are correct on both of these.

Constitutionally Speaking
04-19-2010, 07:23 PM
I heard the first part the opposite--that Reagan when running in '80 wanted to get Ford (as not only did he need a moderate running mate but despite their political differences respected Ford) as his running mate but Ford wanted to almost be a co-president, which Reagan wouldn't go for.

That's what I get for relying on MY memory!!! You (obviously) are right on this one. :o


As for the speculation on whether or not Reagan would have run if he had lost to Carter, I doubt it. That just has not been the history of the Party. If you lose in the general election, you usually are done.

CaughtintheMiddle1990
04-19-2010, 08:06 PM
No.

In 1976, the country was revolted by Watergate, and the poorly handled Presidential pardon of Nixon. I supported the pardon, even though I was then, and remain, a liberal Democrat. I thought Ford should openly have admitted that Nixon had to be given comfort to leave office without a fight.

As for that election, Nixon's henchpeople were still on trial. "All the President's Men" was in the movie theatre, having come out in April 1976. While the economy was improving, no one trusted it. From what I remember, no Republican was going to win, nationwide, that year.


That's what I get for relying on MY memory!!! You (obviously) are right on this one. :o


As for the speculation on whether or not Reagan would have run if he had lost to Carter, I doubt it. That just has not been the history of the Party. If you lose in the general election, you usually are done.

Nixon. I mean if a guy like Nixon could lose, and fly back to the top, why not a guy like Reagan, who had ten times the charm and charisma?
They were in kind of similar circumstances. Nixon won because of how LBJ divided the country with Vietnam and because the Democratic Party was very divided even amongst itself. Reagan won because Carter made the country look weak and made the people unconfidant and the Democratic Party was again divided. I've read that as early as 1978, only a year into Carter's presidency, quite a few Dems were looking to Teddy (Kennedy) to beat Carter in '80.

NJCardFan
04-19-2010, 08:43 PM
If Reagan had been the nominee, and had won and lost, he probably wouldn't have been the nominee in 1980.
I believe he would have. Because had Carter beaten Reagan in '76, Carter's presidency would have happened as it did. Reagan would have run on a "See, I told you so" platform. The rest of the GOP field was really weak. No real conservatives there. Connally, Baker, Crane(who I thought was a better Veep than Bush), and probably Dole was a close as you were going to get. Bush, as we all know, was/is center-right, which is the reason why Reagan tabbed him as his running mate. You can run, lose, and run again. Worked for Nixon. Especially if you lose a close election.

JBG
04-19-2010, 10:49 PM
You can run, lose, and run again. Worked for Nixon. Especially if you lose a close election.Remember the 1968 election had a strong third-party candidate, the last to nail any states' Electoral votes. A few more and that election would have been in the House, if I recall the commentary before I went to bed that evening correctly.

NJCardFan
04-19-2010, 11:22 PM
Remember the 1968 election had a strong third-party candidate, the last to nail any states' Electoral votes. A few more and that election would have been in the House, if I recall the commentary before I went to bed that evening correctly.

Also the Dems were caught unprepared after Bobby Kennedy was killed. Nixon kind of won by default. Humphrey was as weak a candidate as one can get.

noonwitch
04-20-2010, 08:49 AM
Also the Dems were caught unprepared after Bobby Kennedy was killed. Nixon kind of won by default. Humphrey was as weak a candidate as one can get.



McGovern was weaker. :)

NJCardFan
04-20-2010, 09:37 AM
McGovern was weaker. :)

Who was weaker, him or Mondale?

CaughtintheMiddle1990
04-20-2010, 03:39 PM
Who was weaker, him or Mondale?

Imo Mondale. McGovern might've been able to win had he not been so open on his stances on drugs or picked Eagleton as his running mate.

noonwitch
04-20-2010, 03:46 PM
Who was weaker, him or Mondale?


Mondale. McGovern had a military record, and remains a pretty smart guy. I saw him speak at WMU when I was in college-he was a good speaker, and had a good understanding of the issues in play in the early 80s (around the time Mondale ran for president). I remember thinking afterwards how much better of a speaker McGovern was than Mondale.

Mondale is a good man, but boring as hell. I voted for Gary Hart in that primary. That was before Hart's stupidity in challenging the press to follow him around while he cheated on his wife.