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Articulate_Ape
05-13-2010, 06:59 PM
Plans to build a mosque two blocks away from ground zero have set off an emotional debate among area residents and relatives of victims of the September 11, 2001 terror attacks.

Cordoba House project calls for a 15-story community center including a mosque, performance art center, gym, swimming pool and other public spaces.

The project is a collaboration between the American Society for Muslim Advancement and the Cordoba Initiative, both of which work to improve relations with followers of the religion.

The two groups presented their vision to part of the Community Board of lower Manhattan on Wednesday night.

Ro Sheffe, a board member who attended the meeting, said the project did not need to get the board's approval.

"They own the land, and their plans don't have any zoning changes," Sheffe said. "They came to us for our opinions and to let us know their plans. It was purely voluntary on their part."

The 12 members who were at the meeting voted unanimously to support the project. Community board members are appointed by the borough president and serve as advisers to the borough president and the mayor's office.

Daisy Khan, executive director of the Muslim society, described her vision of a center led by Muslims, but serving the community as a whole.

"It will have a real community feel, to celebrate the pluralism in the United States, as well as in the Islamic religion," Khan said. "It will also serve as a major platform for amplifying the silent voice of the majority of Muslims who have nothing to do with extremist ideologies. It will counter the extremist momentum."

The need for the center is twofold, Khan said, because it will support the needs of the growing Muslim community.

"The time for a center like this has come because Islam is an American religion," Khan said. "We need to take the 9/11 tragedy and turn it into something very positive."

Sheffe said a community center for lower Manhattan residents is "desperately needed." The area was mostly commercial, Sheffe said, but as more people move downtown, the lack of residential amenities is a problem.

The project got mixed reviews from families and friends of September 11 victims.

"I think it's the right thing to do," said Marvin Bethea, who was a paramedic at ground zero. "I lost 16 friends down there. But Muslims also got killed on 9/11. It would be a good sign of faith that we're not condemning all Muslims and that the Muslims who did this happened to be extremists. As a black man, I know what it's like to be discriminated against when you haven't done anything."

Herbert Ouida, whose son was killed in the attacks, supports the project as a way to bridge cultural divide.

"I understand the anger, the bitterness and hatred, but it only generates more hatred," Ouida said. "Such a large part of the world has this faith, and to say anyone who has this faith is a terrorist, it's terrible."

Others decried the idea of building a mosque so close to where their relatives died.

"Lower Manhattan should be made into a shrine for the people who died there," said Michael Valentin, a retired city detective who worked at ground zero. "It breaks my heart for the families who have to put up with this. I understand they're [building] it in a respectful way, but it just shouldn't be down there."

Others such as Barry Zelman said the site's location will be a painful reminder.

"[The 9/11 terrorists] did this in the name of Islam," Zelman said. "It's a sacred ground where these people died, where my brother was murdered, and to be in the shadows of that religion, it's just hypocritical and sacrilegious. "

However, Khan emphasized that the attacks killed Muslims, too.

"Three hundred of the victims were Muslim, that's 10 percent of the victims," she said. "We are Americans too. The 9/11 tragedy hurt everybody including the Muslim community. We are all in this together and together we have to fight against extremism and terrorism."

Cordoba House is still in its early stages of development. The American Society for Muslim Advancement is hoping to raise funds for the center to be completed in three to five years.

LINK (http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/05/07/new.york.ground.zero.mosque/index.html)


I realize that Muslims died on 9/11, they die at one another's hands almost daily because it is such a peaceful religion. IMHO, if Muslims want solidarity with the civilized world then they will take the lead in rooting out this supposed aberration in their midst and stop just talking about it. As far as I am concerned, I am done being nice to Muslims until they can prove they are with us and not against us with more than words.

Gingersnap
05-13-2010, 09:18 PM
A lot of ethnic Germans died in concentration camps. Would it really be "okay" To build a facility to promote Aryan interests on the site of one?

I mean, most Germans who enjoyed the Aryan mythos weren't Nazis. They were victims too, if they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. What could possibly be wrong with honoring their more noble aspirations? It's not Germanic mythology that was wrong - it was just the ends to which a few fanatics put it.

Right? :confused:

Articulate_Ape
05-13-2010, 11:42 PM
I find it t be utterly predictable in the "new" USA. The new caliphate is coming, people.

Rockntractor
05-13-2010, 11:50 PM
It is customary for Muslims to erect mosques where they have won battles.

Gingersnap
05-13-2010, 11:53 PM
It is customary for Muslims to erect mosques where they have won battles.

And for Christians, during a certain era. Hello? 21st. century, anyone?

Rockntractor
05-14-2010, 12:00 AM
And for Christians, during a certain era. Hello? 21st. century, anyone?

Your cries fall on deaf ears if they are directed toward the government!

PoliCon
05-14-2010, 01:14 AM
People need to wake up and recognize that Islam is incompatible with American culture.

Rockntractor
05-14-2010, 01:22 AM
People need to wake up and recognize that Islam is incompatible with American culture.

I have been saying that all along but people keep throwing the good Muslim bad Muslim argument at me.

PoliCon
05-14-2010, 01:23 AM
I have been saying that all along but people keep throwing the good Muslim bad Muslim argument at me.


I'm not talking about muslims. I'm talking about ISLAM.

Rockntractor
05-14-2010, 01:24 AM
I'm not talking about muslims. I'm talking about ISLAM.

And I'm done talking to you.:rolleyes:

PoliCon
05-14-2010, 01:35 AM
And I'm done talking to you.:rolleyes:

There is a difference between the ideology and the idiots who buy it.

Rebel Yell
05-14-2010, 09:05 AM
People need to wake up and recognize that Islam is incompatible with American culture.

There is no American culture. Don't you know we're all immigrants. We only retain their culture, even though I don't even know where my ancestors came from.

PoliCon
05-14-2010, 09:12 AM
There is no American culture. Don't you know we're all immigrants. We only retain their culture, even though I don't even know where my ancestors came from.

Oh yea. :o Sorry. I forgot that the fucktards "have spoken" so we should all just shut up now about the issue, roll over and accept their proclamations. ;)

FlaGator
05-14-2010, 09:16 AM
It is not that there is no American culture or that we've lost our culture, Change is the American culture. Our culture has been in a constant state of flus since the foundation of our nation was established. When we long for some past era we long for something that will never come again no matter how hard we try to recreate it. In recreating it we create somthing new, a mix of past and present that isn't the same thing as what we remember.

"We can never step in the same river twice"
--Heraclitus

At least that is how I see things.

noonwitch
05-14-2010, 09:18 AM
It's their land, they can build on it whatever they want, as long as it conforms to the codes and laws of the community. If the people of lower Manhattan are lucky, the center will feature a middle eastern restaurant that is open to the general public.



Not all muslims are responsible for the acts of terrorists. I don't know what they are supposed to do to appease those who want them to condemn the acts of terrorist muslims-are they responsible for those acts? Are all christians responsible for the acts of the John Eric Rudolph's of the world? People don't put that question to all christians.

PoliCon
05-14-2010, 09:19 AM
Change is the American culture. I disagree. The foundations of American culture are solid. The concepts of liberty, individuality, self-determination, etc are rock solid. We may change the trapping and widow dressings of American culture - but the heart of it has not changed. . . . yet. . . .

PoliCon
05-14-2010, 09:23 AM
It's their land, they can build on it whatever they want, as long as it conforms to the codes and laws of the community. If the people of lower Manhattan are lucky, the center will feature a middle eastern restaurant that is open to the general public.



Not all muslims are responsible for the acts of terrorists. I don't know what they are supposed to do to appease those who want them to condemn the acts of terrorist muslims-are they responsible for those acts? Are all christians responsible for the acts of the John Eric Rudolph's of the world? People don't put that question to all christians.

Rudolph is not nor has he ever been part of a larger movement dedicated to the overthrow of the west. I for one do not blame all muslims for the actions of a few - but that does not change the reality that islam is incompatible with American culture. We value freedom - freedom is anathema to islam. Our form of government is directly contrary to that dictated by islam. Islam means SUBMISSION for crying out loud! :rolleyes:

jediab
05-14-2010, 09:30 AM
I read some place that this project would cost close to $100 Million. Now where is that money coming from? If it's tax dollars, then using the libtards coveted Seperation of Church and State, the mosque can not be built.

PoliCon
05-14-2010, 09:32 AM
I read some place that this project would cost close to $100 Million. Now where is that money coming from? If it's tax dollars, then using the libtards coveted Seperation of Church and State, the mosque can not be built.

It's almost certainly coming from Saudi Arabia.

jediab
05-14-2010, 09:44 AM
It's almost certainly coming from Saudi Arabia.

:p Heh! That wouldn't be too surprising!

FlaGator
05-14-2010, 09:47 AM
I disagree. The foundations of American culture are solid. The concepts of liberty, individuality, self-determination, etc are rock solid. We may change the trapping and widow dressings of American culture - but the heart of it has not changed. . . . yet. . . .

We are quickly becoming a nanny state. We are giving up our self-determination and letting the government determine our state of happiness by doing for many of us what we should be doing for ourselves. Our liberty is being replaced with laws and regulations that are suppose to protect us from our right to make decisions, even bad ones. You and I may be living differently but a lot of this country is seeking the government to make everything better for them even at that cost of the foundations of our culture and heritage. Just look at the news articles we post because we find them unbelievable. People turning down jobs to keep their unemployment, mothers living their whole life on welfare, kids being tossed out of school for drawing pictures deemed violent. Every day we vote people in to office who promise to make things all better for us and make life less risky. You and I and many we know may do things differently but a lot of the country only pays lip service to the concept of rugged individualism and would gladly give it up for a guaranteed job and pension.

Keep in mind to that our culture is also defined by our morality, our entertainment, our education, our work ethic, or family structure and a thousand more things that change from day to day. Don't get me wrong, I understand what you are saying, I just take a look at the landscape of our culture today and compare it with out it appearred when I was in high school and all I see is change. Some good but much more of it not so good.

PoliCon
05-14-2010, 09:50 AM
We are quickly becoming a nanny state. We are giving up our self-determination and letting the government determine our state of happiness by doing for many of us what we should be doing for ourselves. Our liberty is being replaced with laws and regulations that are suppose to protect us from our right to make decisions, even bad ones. You and I may be living differently but a lot of this country is seeking the government to make everything better for them even at that cost of the foundations of our culture and heritage. Just look at the news articles we post because we find them unbelievable. People turning down jobs to keep their unemployment, mothers living their whole life on welfare, kids being tossed out of school for drawing pictures deemed violent. Every day we vote people in to office who promise to make things all better for us and make life less risky. You and I and many we know may do things differently but a lot of the country only pays lip service to the concept of rugged individualism and would gladly give it up for a guaranteed job and pension.

Keep in mind to that our culture is also defined by our morality, our entertainment, our education, our work ethic, or family structure and a thousand more things that change from day to day. Don't get me wrong, I understand what you are saying, I just take a look at the landscape of our culture today and compare it with out it appearred when I was in high school and all I see is change. Some good but much more of it not so good.

I'll grant you that there are concerted attempts to make us into a nanny state - but the TEA party movement - the 10th Amendment movement etc should help everyone realize that this is not something that the majority of Americans are willing to accept.

FlaGator
05-14-2010, 09:53 AM
I'll grant you that there are concerted attempts to make us into a nanny state - but the TEA party movement - the 10th Amendment movement etc should help everyone realize that this is not something that the majority of Americans are willing to accept.

My friend, I hope and pray that you are right.

Rebel Yell
05-14-2010, 09:56 AM
It's their land, they can build on it whatever they want, as long as it conforms to the codes and laws of the community. If the people of lower Manhattan are lucky, the center will feature a middle eastern restaurant that is open to the general public.



Not all muslims are responsible for the acts of terrorists. I don't know what they are supposed to do to appease those who want them to condemn the acts of terrorist muslims-are they responsible for those acts? Are all christians responsible for the acts of the John Eric Rudolph's of the world? People don't put that question to all christians.

Let's build a church on the spot where George Tiller was murdered and see what happens.

linda22003
05-14-2010, 10:18 AM
Let's build a church on the spot where George Tiller was murdered and see what happens.

Uh.... you're aware there's already a church on that spot, right?

Rebel Yell
05-14-2010, 12:14 PM
Uh.... you're aware there's already a church on that spot, right?

Oooooh, the outrage!!!!!!!!!!!:D Shit, he was killed at church wasn't he? Derrrr.

Rockntractor
05-14-2010, 12:17 PM
Oooooh, the outrage!!!!!!!!!!!:D Shit, he was killed at church wasn't he? Derrrr.
Build another next door to it that is fundamentalist. Any church that has the head doctor of an abortion clinic for a deacon can't believe in much of the bible!

linda22003
05-14-2010, 12:24 PM
Oooooh, the outrage!!!!!!!!!!!:D Shit, he was killed at church wasn't he? Derrrr.

I knew you'd get there eventually. :)

Rebel Yell
05-14-2010, 12:30 PM
I knew you'd get there eventually. :)

The joke around the office is "Friday's Kevin's retarded day." I can't remember shit on Fridays.

Wei Wu Wei
05-14-2010, 02:26 PM
It is not that there is no American culture or that we've lost our culture, Change is the American culture. Our culture has been in a constant state of flus since the foundation of our nation was established. When we long for some past era we long for something that will never come again no matter how hard we try to recreate it. In recreating it we create somthing new, a mix of past and present that isn't the same thing as what we remember.

"We can never step in the same river twice"
--Heraclitus

At least that is how I see things.

Wisdom.

Articulate_Ape
05-14-2010, 03:37 PM
Moderation in Islam is the exception not the rule. There are those who act on the "radical" ideals of Islam and those who tacitly support them, and there are those who are ambivalent. Those who reject such and can embrace western culture despite being Muslim are the fringe and are in fact actively rejecting many tenets of Islam.

Universities all over this country have very active MSA's (Muslim Student Associations). THIS (http://dailycaller.com/2010/05/13/muslim-student-association-member-admits-she-wants-jewish-genocide-video/) is just a taste of what most of them are about.

Ain't we got fun?

lacarnut
05-14-2010, 04:24 PM
Moderation in Islam is the exception not the rule. There are those who act on the "radical" ideals of Islam and those who tacitly support them, and there are those who are ambivalent. Those who reject such and can embrace western culture despite being Muslim are the fringe and are in fact actively rejecting many tenets of Islam.

Universities all over this country have very active MSA's (Muslim Student Associations). THIS (http://dailycaller.com/2010/05/13/muslim-student-association-member-admits-she-wants-jewish-genocide-video/) is just a taste of what most of them are about.

Ain't we got fun?

What galls me is that Obummer and the crackpots on the left do not see their hatred as dangerous but returning Vets, Tea Party members, conservatives might/could become terrorists. Sucking up to these ragheads who preach and teach their vile hatred is just unbelievable. As far as I am concerned, all orgizinations that preach hatred should be under close scrunity by our government.

Articulate_Ape
05-14-2010, 05:23 PM
What galls me is that Obummer and the crackpots on the left do not see their hatred as dangerous but returning Vets, Tea Party members, conservatives might/could become terrorists. Sucking up to these ragheads who preach and teach their vile hatred is just unbelievable. As far as I am concerned, all orgizinations that preach hatred should be under close scrunity by our government.

I agree with all but the last part. I think the government scrutinizes far too much, thank you very much. If the government is the arbiter, then the government may define "hate" however it likes, no? Preaching hatred requires listeners, moreover people who act on the message, to be anything more than offensive speech. The 1st amendment wasn't put in place to protect popular speech, but rather offensive, and it was so for the very reason that I spell out above.

PoliCon
05-15-2010, 12:11 AM
The joke around the office is "Friday's Kevin's retarded day." I can't remember shit on Fridays.

:eek:

Kevin??? seriously??? KEVIN??? :rolleyes:

Rebel Yell
05-17-2010, 09:11 AM
:eek:

Kevin??? seriously??? KEVIN??? :rolleyes:

Yup, just Kevin. I bet you thought I was a Bobby Ray or a Jim Bob.

ajcalvarese
08-17-2010, 11:06 AM
Of course America has her own culture. Baseball, rock and roll, jazz, cookouts, parades, muscle cars, i can go on forever. I'm sorry if you dont feel as though youre an American. No ones fault but your own.

Rockntractor
08-17-2010, 11:46 AM
Of course America has her own culture. Baseball, rock and roll, jazz, cookouts, parades, muscle cars, i can go on forever. I'm sorry if you dont feel as though youre an American. No ones fault but your own.
Who are you addressing?

marv
08-17-2010, 12:37 PM
Doesn't anyone read the Constitution and the Amendments anymore?

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

The GZ mosque issue should not be about allowing or not allowing the practice of any religion. It's about where. president hussein doesn't even realize that! The sheer number of mosques in NYC, and across the country, should be ample evidence of that.