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View Full Version : Alternate Endings for WWII - - a history question



CueSi
05-18-2010, 02:49 AM
Is there another way for WWII to have ended with:
Hitler alive and on the run
Further involvement with the Middle East/ Mufti of Jerusalem, et al
USSR resurgent with a possibly revived Romanov dynasty
Japan expanding their empire to the Koreas and Australia
the UK in extended depression
And the US still on top of it all like smug bastards. (sarcasm in love, don't flame me!)


Thankyew. :D


~QC

Sonnabend
05-18-2010, 06:59 AM
Yes. The US remaining islationist if Pearl Harbour had never happened. Germany would have had free rein in Europe.


Japan expanding their empire to the Koreas and Australia

And Malaysia and the Philippines and all the other Pacific Rim nations.

FlaGator
05-18-2010, 07:52 AM
Is there another way for WWII to have ended with:

Hitler alive and on the run
Further involvement with the Middle East/ Mufti of Jerusalem, et al
USSR resurgent with a possibly revived Romanov dynasty
Japan expanding their empire to the Koreas and Australia
the UK in extended depression
And the US still on top of it all like smug bastards. (sarcasm in love, don't flame me!)

Thankyew. :D


~QC

No, things happened exactly as they should have.

Sonnabend
05-18-2010, 08:30 AM
No, things happened exactly as they should have.

Did they? Are you so sure?

I have said this before, and the question remains, what if the US had stepped in BEFORE Poland? If the US had threatened its might against Hitler..would he have paused, realising that a heavyweight nation was prepared to go to war?

Two books: "Fatherland" and Deighton's SS- GB are a good illustration of possible alternate futures.

Hitler marched into half of Europe, and it took Japan's attack to get the US into the war..from a historian's POV the question remains:

Why did the US wait so long?

Could Japan have had a massive foothold in the Pacific? Yes, if other nations had not shed their own blood defending places like Papua New Guinea.


the UK in extended depressionOperation Sea Lion would have taken place, and the UK would be a Nazi dominated nation.


Hitler alive and on the runAlive and in control of a fascist Europe. Pulling him down would have torn the planet apart at the seams.

noonwitch
05-18-2010, 08:46 AM
The only way Hitler would have been alive and on the run at the end of WWII is if the Soviets helped him get away, then lied to the rest of the allies about his suicide. And, he may have been valuable to the Soviets/Stalin in this scenario, as a rallying point for the people's hatred-after all," he's out there alive and plotting his way back" makes for some good Soviet propaganda.


I really don't see Germany overriding the UK, even if we hadn't entered the war when we did. It's hard to take two islands full of the most stubborn people on earth, especially when they are having their planes and munitions supplied by the US in the lend/lease program.

FlaGator
05-18-2010, 09:28 AM
Did they? Are you so sure?

I have said this before, and the question remains, what if the US had stepped in BEFORE Poland? If the US had threatened its might against Hitler..would he have paused, realising that a heavyweight nation was prepared to go to war?

Two books: "Fatherland" and Deighton's SS- GB are a good illustration of possible alternate futures.

Hitler marched into half of Europe, and it took Japan's attack to get the US into the war..from a historian's POV the question remains:

Why did the US wait so long?

Could Japan have had a massive foothold in the Pacific? Yes, if other nations had not shed their own blood defending places like Papua New Guinea.

Operation Sea Lion would have taken place, and the UK would be a Nazi dominated nation.

Alive and in control of a fascist Europe. Pulling him down would have torn the planet apart at the seams.

What is so hard to understand about my statement, that events happened exactly as they should have? They are fixed historical points and no what if games will change anything that is in the past. Do you just like to argue with what I post? If I had stated the sun rose this morning would you argue the point by stating all the reasons why the sun might not have risen?

Gingersnap
05-18-2010, 09:37 AM
OMG - there is an entire subculture of people who game all those possibilities and dozens more - I'm married to one. ;)

noonwitch
05-18-2010, 10:10 AM
OMG - there is an entire subculture of people who game all those possibilities and dozens more - I'm married to one. ;)




The people who game the alternate ending of the civil war, where the confederacy wins, are more annoying than those who are gaming WWII alternative endings. At least to a Yankee like me, they are.

FlaGator
05-18-2010, 10:12 AM
OMG - there is an entire subculture of people who game all those possibilities and dozens more - I'm married to one. ;)

I am one of those people who are more concerned with learning from the past than than wondering what would have happened in an alternate reality. I didn't mean to imply that there was something wrong with what if games, I just stated that what was, was and really wasn't expecting a response that challenged my statement of the obvious.

NJCardFan
05-18-2010, 10:14 AM
The Pacific rim would have looked a lot like one big Soviet gulag if Japan were in control. They looked at others in that region as less than human. This is why they found cannibalism so easy. Their atrocities during WWII made what the Nazi's did look like a church picnic.

fettpett
05-18-2010, 10:18 AM
check out www.alternatehistory.net It's a great place to find what people think might have happened. the people are a bit scewed to the left, but ignore that for the most part. You'll not only find a lot of theards on this topice but you'll find MANY very knowledgable people on there

fettpett
05-18-2010, 10:19 AM
OMG - there is an entire subculture of people who game all those possibilities and dozens more - I'm married to one. ;)

I am one as well :D

Sonnabend
05-18-2010, 10:21 AM
What is so hard to understand about my statement, that events happened exactly as they should have? They are fixed historical points and no what if games will change anything that is in the past.

You obviously have never read any alternate history books or been involved in theoretical tactical discussions as to what might have happened..here's one that we worked out in a history class...what if Rommel had said he would have stood trial instead of suiciding?

Answer: the possibility was large that the entire Afrika Korps would have risen in revolt, along with a huge portion of the armoured divisions. There were mutinies in WW1, did you know that?

And that a parallel exists that the assassination attempt on Hitler would have had MASSIVE consequences had Rommel survived? The man was a pivotal point in history, a General of the old school, deeply respected and admired.


Do you just like to argue with what I post? If I had stated the sun rose this morning would you argue the point by stating all the reasons why the sun might not have risen?

History is not just about what happened, but also why, and how, and by whom and what may have happened to change that paradigm. History is about learning from the past..a lesson the creators of the Versailles Treaty should have known before they forced the hand of Germany and made Hitler's rise to power possible.

Had the Powers had more foresight into the possible consequences of their actions, they would not have frogmarched the Germans to the table, put the pen in their hand and said "sign or else".

Those who forget the past are doomed to relive it. Those who forget the lessons of the past..are doomed.

Santayana.

FlaGator
05-18-2010, 10:26 AM
You obviously have never read any alternate history books or been involved in theoretical tactical discussions as to what might have happened..here's one that we worked out in a history class...what if Rommel had said he would have stood trial instead of suiciding?

Answer: the possibility was large that the entire Afrika Korps would have risen in revolt, along with a huge portion of the armoured divisions. There were mutinies in WW1, did you know that?

And that a parallel exists that the assassination attempt on Hitler would have had MASSIVE consequences had Rommel survived? The man was a pivotal point in history, a General of the old school, deeply respected and admired.



History is not just about what happened, but also why, and how, and by whom and what may have happened to change that paradigm. History is about learning from the past..a lesson the creators of the Versailles Treaty should have known before they forced the hand of Germany and made Hitler's rise to power possible.

Had the Powers had more foresight into the possible consequences of their actions, they would not have frogmarched the Germans to the table, put the pen in their hand and said "sign or else".

Those who forget the past are doomed to relive it. Those who forget the lessons of the past..are doomed.

Santayana.

Please don't get me wrong and I apologize if I came of as criticizing your interest. I was just surprised that I got a response to my statement which just a commentary that history is what it is. As I stated to Ginger, I am more interested in learning from the past than reliving it with alternate endings. I can examine the events and say that this was done wrong and this was done right but my interests don't include wondering what the outcome would be if the wrong thing was done right. I can see that it would be helpful to strategists and war planners but my abilities exclude me from being very good at those things.

asdf2231
05-18-2010, 10:29 AM
If Germany had allowed the air campaign against Britain to unfold as it was rather than switching to strategic bombing of London in mid stride they would have likely kept up the decimation of the RAF. Unternehmen Seelöwe would have likely prevailed which would have taken England out of the war or SEVERLY curtailed the allies abilities to perform strategic bombing on the German industrial and population centers. This would have allowed some time for consolodation and then tearing into the russians while concentrating on what would amount to a single front.

Depending on the outcomes Germany might very well have negotiated cease fire agreements from a position of power that would have left them in possession on large amounts of Europe. And the Holocaust would have remained fuzzy outragious unbelievable rumor, which until the liberation of the camps and pictures started coming back, most everyone believed just that.

What is more likely is that it simply would have taken much longer for the allies to finally defeat the Axis powers.

Sonnabend
05-18-2010, 10:29 AM
I am one of those people who are more concerned with learning from the past than than wondering what would have happened in an alternate reality

Good, then riddle me this: given the current state of the US, given the current world climate, what would the the end result be of the US tasking an isolationist standpoint, how does this parallel the pre WW2 environment, how do the events of that time affect the tactical decisions made today?


I didn't mean to imply that there was something wrong with what if games, I just stated that what was, was and really wasn't expecting a response that challenged my statement of the obvious.

The obvious is always challenged,coming as it does on the heels with a sequence of changes that swept away the post war era and the bitter lessons it contained. What if are two words that every historian learns as a beginning, because from there you van not only project past events and their consequences, as well as using those scenarios and possibilities to help determine the effects on current events as well...and the consequences of those decisions are.

My teachers referred to them as matrices or "decision trees", showing how one or more small events have a cascade effect with far reaching consequences.

Gingersnap
05-18-2010, 10:29 AM
I am one of those people who are more concerned with learning from the past than than wondering what would have happened in an alternate reality. I didn't mean to imply that there was something wrong with what if games, I just stated that what was, was and really wasn't expecting a response that challenged my statement of the obvious.

You misunderstand - I was just replying to the OP.

Mr. Snaps is very involved in war gaming so it struck me as amusing that anyone would even ask a "what if" question. My entire basement is one huge "what if" experiment most of the time and it's used by anywhere from 3 to 25 people for any given scenario. :D

asdf2231
05-18-2010, 10:31 AM
OMG - there is an entire subculture of people who game all those possibilities and dozens more - I'm married to one. ;)

We are SO not a "Sub Culture"!

Anyone with an ounce of cool knows that Nazi's fighting dinosaurs or the US Rocketman Corps battling Japanese stem powered battle suits rocks beyond all reckoning!!!

:p

Gingersnap
05-18-2010, 10:35 AM
We are SO not a "Sub Culture"!

Anyone with an ounce of cool knows that Nazi's fighting dinosaurs or the US Rocketman Corps battling Japanese stem powered battle suits rocks beyond all reckoning!!!

:p

Look, I'll feed you people snacks and I'll even let you use my notebook when you run out of computing power down there but you guys are gamer geeks. Just because your games start with actual historical data doesn't mean that you are "cool".

Not with those geeky t-shirts anyway.

FlaGator
05-18-2010, 10:35 AM
We are SO not a "Sub Culture"!

Anyone with an ounce of cool knows that Nazi's fighting dinosaurs or the US Rocketman Corps battling Japanese stem powered battle suits rocks beyond all reckoning!!!

:p

Now Nazi's fighting dinosaurs is something I can understand. Godzilla doing the Ubangti Stomp on Rommel is something I'd like to game plan! :D

fettpett
05-18-2010, 10:38 AM
Please don't get me wrong and I apologize if I came of as criticizing your interest. I was just surprised that I got a response to my statement which just a commentary that history is what it is. As I stated to Ginger, I am more interested in learning from the past than reliving it with alternate endings. I can examine the events and say that this was done wrong and this was done right but my interests don't include wondering what the outcome would be if the wrong thing was done right. I can see that it would be helpful to strategists and war planners but my abilities exclude me from being very good at those things.

it's just another form of critical thinking that shows how complex and stupid humans can be. Many inventions and the consequences of them where mere accidents. take for example Eli Whitney and the Cotton Gin. Originally he was going to South Carolina to teach but got side tracked to Georgia where he saw how the slaves were working in the fields with cotton and how labor intensive it was. He saw a need to relieve the pressure on the slaves and developed the Cotton Gin. It had the opposite affect of strengthening and expanding slavery than what he intended.

If say he had gone to SC or had an accident or something that prevented him from going to Georgia, Slavery would have died out and there wouldn't have been a Civil War, not like what we went through anyway.

Just shows how the direction history can change on a whim

Sonnabend
05-18-2010, 10:47 AM
Please don't get me wrong and I apologize if I came of as criticizing your interest. I was just surprised that I got a response to my statement which just a commentary that history is what it is.History is NEVER just what was, but what might have been.

It is not a sequence of facts, it is part and parcel of who we are, it is as much about how we got here, as where the hell we are going...and what will happen when we get there

I predicted Obama years ago, I knew this was coming. Why? Because he has parallels in history of populists coming to power at the wrong time, I saw his speeches and heard Leni Riefenstahl's voice.

I heard "hope and change" and behind it, the utter idiocy of our own Labor government who said "It's time"...paving the way for one of this nations worst events in history, unprecedented in its scope and with repercussions that are still felt today.

What happened on Nov 11 1975? How does it relate to your own country and where you are headed now?

History is not a recital of facts, it is a series of lessons that have seen our past bathed in blood, events that could have well been avoided had someone looked behind them and realised what they were about to do.


As I stated to Ginger, I am more interested in learning from the past than reliving it with alternate endings.You use one to learn the other. HOW as well as who and when.


I can examine the events and say that this was done wrong and this was done right but my interests don't include wondering what the outcome would be if the wrong thing was done rightThen you need to broaden your horizons and understand that history, ALL history, has its parallels in modern culture.

Pres. GW Bush and Tiberius Drusus Nero Germanicus...what do they have in common?


. I can see that it would be helpful to strategists and war planners but my abilities exclude me from being very good at those things.I am neither yet I can sit here, and read current events, and predict outcomes, and be more right than wrong. I know what is coming with Obama, I cannot be 100% sure, but I can make an educated guess.

When 9/11 happened I was shocked, but not surprised, history attests to the fact that sooner or later, the enemy will get in one good, hard punch when least expected.

Ask Quinctilius Varus.

Ask the Romans, who could not see that their empire was about to fall when the Goths came...ask half the world when they could not understand or see how the death of an archduke in some foreign land would lead to a world war that would leave generations destroyed.

History is not just what happened, if we are to learn ANYTHING from it, we need to know why, how, who, when, what the possible alternatives are and were, and how those possible realities and events can be used to guide current events and decisions...and save lives in the process.

Iraq and Vietnam. Can you see the parallels if I was to ask "what if Pres Bush had been in command in Vietnam?"

That's the beginning.

CueSi
05-18-2010, 03:28 PM
No, things happened exactly as they should have.

LOL. . .but not if you're writing a Decopunk vampire story. . . think Sky Captain and the world of Tomorrow with vampires and junk.:p And I need a big bad in the form of Hitler allied with a prodigal line of the Romanovs.

DJM!

~QC

djones520
05-18-2010, 04:57 PM
LOL. . .but not if you're writing a Decopunk vampire story. . . think Sky Captain and the world of Tomorrow with vampires and junk.:p And I need a big bad in the form of Hitler allied with a prodigal line of the Romanovs.

DJM!

~QC

I think I have blood coming from my ears after reading that. Please do the world a favor and burn the computer that such a travesty has been begun on.

djones520
05-18-2010, 05:01 PM
We are SO not a "Sub Culture"!

Anyone with an ounce of cool knows that Nazi's fighting dinosaurs or the US Rocketman Corps battling Japanese stem powered battle suits rocks beyond all reckoning!!!

:p

I don't know who your kidding, but yes we are. People like you and me may be the "Alpha" examples of it, but there is definitely a "sub" part of this culture.

CueSi
05-18-2010, 05:13 PM
I think I have blood coming from my ears after reading that. Please do the world a favor and burn the computer that such a travesty has been begun on.

And they will burn mine back.

Thanks for doing the work I didn't want to do though....

<runs>

~QC

obx
05-19-2010, 08:02 AM
I am one as well :D

Ditto!
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obx
05-19-2010, 08:38 AM
SONNABEND. I think you are right about Rommel. I read something once that said he may have become the head of Germany if the attempt on Hitler had worked. Once he was installed, Germany would ask for peace. The Nazi's would still be around but they would not have a leader as head of state. I also think you are right about the burden of Versailles. Even Churchill, who was no friend of Germany, thought the whole thing was garbage. It is also worth noting that 1 of 10 people in America at that time were of German descent
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Sonnabend
05-20-2010, 07:14 AM
Thank you, obx. Unlike some people, who dismiss history as just a litany of facts and little else,. those of us who try to understand what happened, are well aware of the fact that had the Treaty not imposed such draconic measures on Germany, they would well have been able to weather the Depression of 1929, and thus the atmosphere which allowed a leather lunged former housepainter named Schicklegruber to come to power, would never have eventuated.

The Treaty left the nation destitute, the people stripped of their identity, their military castrated.....the people polarised, starving, unemployed, leaderless.

A perfect opportunity for a New Order to step in and restore what was theirs with a promise of glory and a revitalised Germany under the NSDAP.

All because the Allies wanted retribution...not reconstruction.

obx
05-20-2010, 11:38 AM
England, France and America did not see the rise of the NSDAP as a threat because they wanted to use Germany as a buffer to the new Soviet Union. Bleed them dry and use them as a fence.
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fettpett
05-20-2010, 11:56 AM
The treaty basicly set the ground work for the raise of the NAZI movement. The EXTREMELY weak Weimar Republic's government (which Hittler was legally elected to head) couldn't do anything about the depression. It's also argued that Germany's depression is what caused the Global Great Depression in the late 20's-early 30's. Germany was one of the largest industrail countries in the world prior to WW1, particluarlly in chemicals. It's collapse after Versailles, while it helped spur American Industry, it eventually lead to the collapse in '29.

Many German's wanted their country to be strong again, this was the peak of Nationalism that started after the US Civil War. Anyone that looked strong compared to the weak Weimar government was seen as the best choice to run it.

The US really didn't want such huge sancations,restitution and restrictions placed on Germany and even the Angleophope Willison saw the danger in trying to grind Germany under the world's boot heal. thus his "brilliant" idea for the League of Nations. Without the US the thing was a paper tiger, backed by a bunch of winnie spined Euro's like Chamberlin.