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PoliCon
05-20-2010, 11:46 AM
THE US formally apologised to American Indian tribes today for "ill-conceived policies" and acts of violence committed against them.
http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/us-apologises-to-american-indians/story-e6frfku0-1225868996848

So should I hold my breath and wait for the various indian tribes to apologize for the massacres and other atrocities they committed against settlers? :rolleyes:

fettpett
05-20-2010, 12:02 PM
nope...you'll be holding it for a long time.

Though, many of our actions where stupid and "ill-concevied" particularly with the 5 civilized tribes of the East. Jackson was probably one of the Worst Presidents for the US due to animosity that he helped push. If he hadn't been so xenophobic against the Indian's the attitude probably wouldn't have prevalied well into the early 20th Century.

However it does go back further, to the early colonial days when BOTH sides commited atrocities against each other. But Jackson set the US governments policy when dealing with the Indian's

Wei Wu Wei
05-20-2010, 12:11 PM
http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/us-apologises-to-american-indians/story-e6frfku0-1225868996848

So should I hold my breath and wait for the various indian tribes to apologize for the massacres and other atrocities they committed against settlers? :rolleyes:

If someone comes onto your land uninvited don't you reserve the right to shoot them?

Rockntractor
05-20-2010, 12:18 PM
If someone comes onto your land uninvited don't you reserve the right to shoot them?

I'm still pissed because Rome over ran Germany. I want reparations:mad:!

PoliCon
05-20-2010, 12:37 PM
nope...you'll be holding it for a long time.

Though, many of our actions where stupid and "ill-concevied" particularly with the 5 civilized tribes of the East. Jackson was probably one of the Worst Presidents for the US due to animosity that he helped push. If he hadn't been so xenophobic against the Indian's the attitude probably wouldn't have prevalied well into the early 20th Century.

However it does go back further, to the early colonial days when BOTH sides commited atrocities against each other. But Jackson set the US governments policy when dealing with the Indian's

What do you expect from the founder of the party of institutionalized racism?

PoliCon
05-20-2010, 12:38 PM
I'm still pissed because Rome over ran Germany. I want reparations:mad:!

EXACTLY! And those damn asians who invaded europe . . . . Airans, huns, celts. arabs . . . . . and lets not forget the asians who invaded the US.

PoliCon
05-20-2010, 12:39 PM
If someone comes onto your land uninvited don't you reserve the right to shoot them?

you mean the unsettled land that nobody was using?

fettpett
05-20-2010, 12:41 PM
you mean the unsettled land that nobody was using?

or the land that was bought and paid for?

PoliCon
05-20-2010, 12:43 PM
or the land that was bought and paid for?

You mean settlers paid indians for land? :eek: I wonder if wee wee is aware of how often that was done? Or of how often one tribe would sell off the lands of another tribe so as to start conflict. :rolleyes:

FlaGator
05-20-2010, 12:47 PM
you mean the unsettled land that nobody was using?

The indians did use the resouces of the land so I won't say that no one one using it.

fettpett
05-20-2010, 01:27 PM
You mean settlers paid indians for land? :eek: I wonder if wee wee is aware of how often that was done? Or of how often one tribe would sell off the lands of another tribe so as to start conflict. :rolleyes:

lol...yeah, probably went like this:

Indian: "we'll sell you some land"
Settler: "really? sweet! this land here? looks great, got a creek for fishing, nice soil for farming...great gaming hunting! i'll take it"
Indian: "no, no, not this land, that one over there." *points* "it's MUCH better than this one, it's got a stream, more deer and better soil."
Settler: "Really! nice......I'll take it!" *hands over some glass beads, hathcet, couple bolts of cloth* "sign this paper here, and we'll be done"
Indian: "ok, thats great land, you'll grow strong and have many children." *sucker*
Settler: "thanks, we'll make great neighbors!" *sucker*

Later.....

New Indian: "what are you doing here? you can't be here, this is scarred land, only Wolf mother can live here."
Settler: "what? bah, Mother Wolf can live somewhere else or I'll shoot her, I've got a deed for this land." *shows deed*
New Indian: "they can't sell this land! its not theirs!"
Settler: "Guess you better take it up with them, I'd thought we'd have a neighborhood cookout next week, maybe you can hash it out then."
New Indian: "Really? sweet! we'll be there and bring the whole tribe!"

the next week:

second Indian: "YOU!! you sold the Scarred Wolf mother's land!"
first Indian: "haha! we got these wonderful hatchets and fabric for it! and these awesome beeds"
second Indian: *angry* "for this you sold our land!! may the Wolf mother eat your heart!"
first Indian: *laughs* "not if I cut yours out first!"

they fight, kill each other....

Setter: "sweet, now I have a stream and a creek!!"

Wei Wu Wei
05-20-2010, 01:31 PM
I'm still pissed because Rome over ran Germany. I want reparations:mad:!

Does the Roman Empire still rule over Germany? Does it have native germans in "settlements" after centuries of genocide?

Wei Wu Wei
05-20-2010, 01:33 PM
lol...yeah, probably went like this:

Indian: "we'll sell you some land"
Settler: "really? sweet! this land here? looks great, got a creek for fishing, nice soil for farming...great gaming hunting! i'll take it"
Indian: "no, no, not this land, that one over there." *points* "it's MUCH better than this one, it's got a stream, more deer and better soil."
Settler: "Really! nice......I'll take it!" *hands over some glass beads, hathcet, couple bolts of cloth* "sign this paper here, and we'll be done"
Indian: "ok, thats great land, you'll grow strong and have many children." *sucker*
Settler: "thanks, we'll make great neighbors!" *sucker*

Later.....

New Indian: "what are you doing here? you can't be here, this is scarred land, only Wolf mother can live here."
Settler: "what? bah, Mother Wolf can live somewhere else or I'll shoot her, I've got a deed for this land." *shows deed*
New Indian: "they can't sell this land! its not theirs!"
Settler: "Guess you better take it up with them, I'd thought we'd have a neighborhood cookout next week, maybe you can hash it out then."
New Indian: "Really? sweet! we'll be there and bring the whole tribe!"

the next week:

second Indian: "YOU!! you sold the Scarred Wolf mother's land!"
first Indian: "haha! we got these wonderful hatchets and fabric for it! and these awesome beeds"
second Indian: *angry* "for this you sold our land!! may the Wolf mother eat your heart!"
first Indian: *laughs* "not if I cut yours out first!"

they fight, kill each other....

Setter: "sweet, now I have a stream and a creek!!"

Oh God it's like reading 17th century satire...

fettpett
05-20-2010, 01:34 PM
Oh God it's like reading 17th century satire...

no shit Sherlock

Rebel Yell
05-20-2010, 01:47 PM
If someone comes onto your land uninvited don't you reserve the right to shoot them?

Do you cry for the settlers who were killed by Indians? Oh that's right, Indians are darker skinned.:rolleyes:

Lager
05-20-2010, 04:48 PM
If someone comes onto your land uninvited don't you reserve the right to shoot them?

Wow, and you were one who complained about the Arizona law!

Articulate_Ape
05-20-2010, 04:53 PM
I think we should send them "sorry blankets" to prove our sincerity.

djones520
05-20-2010, 05:25 PM
I see a whole lotta stupid going on in this thread.

FlaGator
05-20-2010, 05:26 PM
If I read this correctly then the consensus is that the Indians got what was coming to them?

djones520
05-20-2010, 05:27 PM
If I read this correctly then the consensus is that the Indians got what was coming to them?

Thats what it seems like. Hence my above comment.

FlaGator
05-20-2010, 05:27 PM
I think we should send them "sorry blankets" to prove our sincerity.

You are on South Park overload...

Should we infect the blankets with SARS first? :D

Speedy
05-20-2010, 05:31 PM
If I read this correctly then the consensus is that the Indians got what was coming to them?


Yes. A hunter/gatherer civilization went up against a technologically superior civilization and lost. The lands were fought over and one side lost. If they want them back they are welcomed to take them back the same way, not by bitching and crying about it. If they deserved to have the land, they would have won the wars that were fought over them. Fuck them and their "feelings."

JB
05-20-2010, 05:57 PM
If someone comes onto your land uninvited don't you reserve the right to shoot them?Did the Indians apologize to whomever they stole the land from?

fettpett
05-20-2010, 06:17 PM
Yes. A hunter/gatherer civilization went up against a technologically superior civilization and lost. The lands were fought over and one side lost. If they want them back they are welcomed to take them back the same way, not by bitching and crying about it. If they deserved to have the land, they would have won the wars that were fought over them. Fuck them and their "feelings."

actually they were pretty much equal tech wise...at first...it was disease that really hurt them.

Articulate_Ape
05-20-2010, 06:23 PM
Think of the American Indians as Na'vi that weren't blue and didn't have a happy ending written into the script.

djones520
05-20-2010, 06:28 PM
Think of the American Indians as Na'vi that weren't blue and didn't have a happy ending written into the script.

Reinforcements weren't 6 years away as well.

fettpett
05-20-2010, 06:32 PM
Reinforcements weren't 6 years away as well.

depending on the time period, anywhere from 6 days by train to 3 months by boat if the weather was good or 6 months by wagon

FlaGator
05-20-2010, 08:27 PM
Think of the American Indians as Na'vi that weren't blue and didn't have a happy ending written into the script.

I see them as the poor saps who had the misfortune of being in the way of Manifest Destiny while the US was manifesting it's destiny all over a large chuck of North America.

djones520
05-20-2010, 08:28 PM
The situation with the "Native Americans" and America's westward expansion is way more complex then anyone can capture in three or four sentences.

fettpett
05-20-2010, 10:12 PM
I see them as the poor saps who had the misfortune of being in the way of Manifest Destiny while the US was manifesting it's destiny all over a large chuck of North America.

of course they could have helped shape that destiny by working with and adapting instead of fighting and killing and getting put on reservations. but again I blame Jackson for his idiotic stance toward Indian's

PoliCon
05-20-2010, 10:13 PM
Does the Roman Empire still rule over Germany? Does it have native germans in "settlements" after centuries of genocide?

Right because everyone who lives on a reservation is being FORCED to stay there. :rolleyes:

PoliCon
05-20-2010, 10:14 PM
I think we should send them "sorry blankets" to prove our sincerity.

You know the smallpox blankets meme is a myth right?

PoliCon
05-20-2010, 10:16 PM
If I read this correctly then the consensus is that the Indians got what was coming to them?

Not at all. IMO there were plenty of mistakes made by both sides. Even more made by individual people acting on their own.

PoliCon
05-20-2010, 10:17 PM
Think of the American Indians as Na'vi that weren't blue and didn't have a happy ending written into the script.

Oh fun! the noble savage meme? :rolleyes:

Rockntractor
05-20-2010, 10:20 PM
We have done a pretty good job of saying we are sorry in Oklahoma. We start by giving them free houses which most of them don't maintain and when the roof starts leaking they move out and we build them another one and every month we go around and fill the cupboards full of food. we allow them to sell un-taxed cigarettes to anyone including non-tribe members. They operate gambling throughout the state and make a fortune which they are using little by little to buy back the property in the state.
If it wasn't for the high rate of alcoholism and diabetes they would be doing quite well.

KhrushchevsShoe
05-20-2010, 10:35 PM
Its like reading that book by JM Coatzee, so much fun!

fettpett
05-20-2010, 11:26 PM
You know the smallpox blankets meme is a myth right?

funny...i just learned about this in class today...of course my teacher made to the point to say that smallpox was the reason for the Indian's losing the War. But I've had to correct her on a number of different things, so that doesn't mean a lot

However, it wasn't a myth, at Fort Pitt they did give them smallpox infected blankets...it just didn't work very well if at all...seeing as most of them were eastern Tribes forced west, they'd all been exposed and probably built up some immunity to smallpox

FlaGator
05-20-2010, 11:36 PM
of course they could have helped shape that destiny by working with and adapting instead of fighting and killing and getting put on reservations. but again I blame Jackson for his idiotic stance toward Indian's

I don't think that their worldview allowed them to view the possibility of willing assimilation. It would be like having the Russians show up here and expecting us to just passively accept their presence and adapt to the way of life they offered us.

PoliCon
05-20-2010, 11:39 PM
funny...i just learned about this in class today...of course my teacher made to the point to say that smallpox was the reason for the Indian's losing the War. But I've had to correct her on a number of different things, so that doesn't mean a lot

However, it wasn't a myth, at Fort Pitt they did give them smallpox infected blankets...it just didn't work very well if at all...seeing as most of them were eastern Tribes forced west, they'd all been exposed and probably built up some immunity to smallpox

And at fort Pitt they gave the blankets to their ALLIED tribes. Why would they give smallpox blankets to their allies? Furthermore - they didn't know how smallpox was transmitted. They could not have known the the blankets were carriers.

PoliCon
05-20-2010, 11:39 PM
I don't think that their worldview allowed them to view the possibility of willing assimilation. It would be like having the Russians show up here and expecting us to just passively accept their presence and adapt to the way of life they offered us.

Are you serious?

Rockntractor
05-21-2010, 12:03 AM
I don't think that their worldview allowed them to view the possibility of willing assimilation. It would be like having the Russians show up here and expecting us to just passively accept their presence and adapt to the way of life they offered us.

So you are saying that the native Americans of 200 years ago were at the same stage of cultural development the United states is now. Come on dude apples to apples.

M21
05-21-2010, 12:57 AM
Sand Creek? Wounded Knee?

DENIAL always follows a genocide. The perpetrators of genocide dig up the mass graves, burn the bodies, try to cover up the evidence and intimidate the witnesses. They deny that they committed any crimes, and often blame what happened on the victims.

"The only good Indian is a dead one." - Gen. Phillip Sherman

Sonnabend
05-21-2010, 05:33 AM
If it was "genocide"...there'd be no Indians to apologise to.

Idiot.

Constitutionally Speaking
05-21-2010, 06:07 AM
You are on South Park overload...

Should we infect the blankets with SARS first? :D


Just for the record, this "blanket germ warfare" meme is a myth - based almost entirely on lies. There is one POSSIBLE instance that was undertaken by underlings and was not successful.

Sonnabend
05-21-2010, 07:26 AM
Oh yeah that's right, . how can I forget..the cowboys were perpetrating germ warfare on the Indians about the same time the Muslims were flying 747's across Damascus......

http://s.myniceprofile.com/myspacepic/478/47831.gif http://s.myniceprofile.com/myspacepic/478/47831.gif

PoliCon
05-21-2010, 07:42 AM
Just for the record, this "blanket germ warfare" meme is a myth - based almost entirely on lies. There is one POSSIBLE instance that was undertaken by underlings and was not successful.

:p I already said that!

Sonnabend
05-21-2010, 07:52 AM
Ref my above post...Wei was telling me how Islamic pilots had a working aircraft...a thousand years ago

Now this idiocy

http://s.myniceprofile.com/myspacepic/478/47831.gif

Articulate_Ape
05-21-2010, 11:38 AM
If it was "genocide"...there'd be no Indians to apologise to.

Idiot.

The ones that are left are all Italians.

djones520
05-21-2010, 11:49 AM
If it was "genocide"...there'd be no Indians to apologise to.

Idiot.

Well guess the holocaust wasn't genocide. Still got Jews kicking around.

Seriously Sonna...

M21
05-21-2010, 12:01 PM
If it was "genocide"...there'd be no Indians to apologise to.

Idiot.

Are you a Holocaust denier too?

Rebel Yell
05-21-2010, 12:20 PM
The ones that are left are all Italians.

Chris Rock: That ain't Pocahontas. That's Jennifer Lopez.

M21
05-21-2010, 12:28 PM
Oh yeah that's right, . how can I forget..the cowboys were perpetrating germ warfare on the Indians about the same time the Muslims were flying 747's across Damascus......



Biological warfare and the methods of transmitting diseases using crude delivery systems where used during the US Civil War against Southerners and weren’t unknown to the Generals like Sheridan, Sherman, Johnson, etc who after devastating the South were sent west to take on "the Indian problem".

FlaGator
05-21-2010, 02:41 PM
So you are saying that the native Americans of 200 years ago were at the same stage of cultural development the United states is now. Come on dude apples to apples.

I am not sure what cultural development has to do with their desire to capitulate to a more culturally developed society. I am not even sure that a lesser culturally developed society can even recognize one that is greater. A society develops a culture that satisfies it worldview so to consider one greater than the other my be hubris and cultural arrogance.

Please explain to me how the state of Indian culture should have caused them to realize that they were out matched and how that should have led them to the conclusion that they should have accepted assimilation?

FlaGator
05-21-2010, 02:42 PM
Just for the record, this "blanket germ warfare" meme is a myth - based almost entirely on lies. There is one POSSIBLE instance that was undertaken by underlings and was not successful.

I know that. I was just channeling an episode of South Park.;)

Articulate_Ape
05-21-2010, 02:48 PM
I think American Indians were a myth perpetuated so we have an excuse to chow down on turkey and the fixin's the last Thursday in November.

FlaGator
05-21-2010, 02:54 PM
Biological warfare and the methods of transmitting diseases using crude delivery systems where used during the US Civil War against Southerners and weren’t unknown to the Generals like Sheridan, Sherman, Johnson, etc who after devastating the South were sent west to take on "the Indian problem".

The black death was spread from Asia to Europe in the 14th century when Asian armies at war in areas of the Black Sea started catapulting the bodies of those who died from the plague into the fortified port cities that were under siege. Rats in the city picked up the fleas on the bodies and carried them through out the cities then road ships to the rest of Europe.

If that isn't germ warfare the I don't know what its. I also don't take that Damascus was flying any planes around at the time either.:rolleyes:

FlaGator
05-21-2010, 02:56 PM
I think American Indians were a myth perpetuated so we have an excuse to chow down on turkey and the fixin's the last Thursday in November.

Some philosophers and religions believe that all reality is an illusion which may mean that we are all someone elses myth...

Articulate_Ape
05-21-2010, 03:07 PM
Some philosophers and religions believe that all reality is an illusion which may mean that we are all someone elses myth...

That would be deep if you really existed, but you don't.

FlaGator
05-21-2010, 03:10 PM
That would be deep if you really existed, but you don't.

I keep telling myself that I do, but I find no empirical evidence for it...

Wei Wu Wei
05-21-2010, 05:52 PM
I keep telling myself that I do, but I find no empirical evidence for it...

no evidence whatsoever. the seeker can never be found, conceived accurately, thought, seen, ect.

Constitutionally Speaking
05-21-2010, 07:03 PM
:p I already said that!


Yes you did - and rather accurately also. My bad. :o

Constitutionally Speaking
05-21-2010, 07:03 PM
I think American Indians were a myth perpetuated so we have an excuse to chow down on turkey and the fixin's the last Thursday in November.


That works too!! ;)

PoliCon
05-21-2010, 07:15 PM
Yes you did - and rather accurately also. My bad. :o

NP ;) I'm glad that others are becoming aware of the reality with regards to that meme. :)

Rockntractor
05-21-2010, 07:26 PM
Please explain to me how the state of Indian culture should have caused them to realize that they were out matched and how that should have led them to the conclusion that they should have accepted assimilation?
Please explain to who, what?:confused:

fettpett
05-21-2010, 09:24 PM
I don't think that their worldview allowed them to view the possibility of willing assimilation. It would be like having the Russians show up here and expecting us to just passively accept their presence and adapt to the way of life they offered us.

come on, what do you think the 5 Civilized tribes where? Cherokee, Creek, Seminole, Chickasaw, and Choctaw where? there was a reason why they were called "Civilized" many had slaves, plantations and many were Christian. there were other tribes that were similar, like the Iroquois. If Jackson hadn't been a dick to them and forced them off there lands and unto the trail of tears, and we treated other tribes similarly, they would have assimilated just fine. Washington set the president on how they should been treated, and we should have kept it up.

FlaGator
05-21-2010, 09:31 PM
come on, what do you think the 5 Civilized tribes where? Cherokee, Creek, Seminole, Chickasaw, and Choctaw where? there was a reason why they were called "Civilized" many had slaves, plantations and many were Christian. there were other tribes that were similar, like the Iroquois. If Jackson hadn't been a dick to them and forced them off there lands and unto the trail of tears, and we treated other tribes similarly, they would have assimilated just fine. Washington set the president on how they should been treated, and we should have kept it up.

But what about the Sioux Nations, The Comanche, The Apache and the rest of the tribes of the Great Plains? Do you think that forced assimilation would have been unnecessary for them if there was no Andrew Jackson?

FlaGator
05-21-2010, 09:34 PM
Please explain to who, what?:confused:

Never mind...

fettpett
05-21-2010, 09:39 PM
But what about the Sioux Nations, The Comanche, The Apache and the rest of the tribes of the Great Plains? Do you think that forced assimilation would have been unnecessary for them if there was no Andrew Jackson?

If they have examples to look at and the US Government didn't do the forced relocation that started with the Trail of Tears, then yeah, the Sioux would have been fine with assimilation. As it was, many of them were fine with the treaties they made until settlers found Gold in the Black Hills and started mining and settling in what, to the Sioux was holy land, and was illegal by treaty for settlers to do. If the US Gov and come in and kicked all the squatters out, the Sioux wouldn't have gone to war.

Can't say much about the Comanche, cuz idk much about their dealings with settlers and the US Gov.

The Apache probably would have raised hell regardless. again, don't know much about their history either.

Sonnabend
05-21-2010, 09:54 PM
Well guess the holocaust wasn't genocide. Still got Jews kicking around.

Seriously Sonna...


gen·o·cide  <a href=&quot;http://dictionary.reference.com/audio.html/lunaWAV/G01/G0103700&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;><img src=&quot;http://sp.dictionary.com/dictstatic/g/d/speaker.gif&quot; border=&quot;0&quot; alt=&quot;genocide pronunciation&quot; /></a> /ˈdʒɛnhttp://sp.dictionary.com/dictstatic/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngəˌsaɪd/ http://sp.dictionary.com/dictstatic/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/IPA_pron_key.html) Show Spelled[jen-uh-sahyd] http://sp.dictionary.com/dictstatic/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/Spell_pron_key.html) Show IPA
–nounthe deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.

*sigh*

ATTEMPTED genocide would be more accurate then.

Oh and M21, I really have no intention of being lectured by someone who sympathises with eco terrorists.

My father and my brother in law both visited Oswieciem, one of my main dissertations in history was the Holocaust and the evil it represented. So no, I am not a "holocaust denier" My comment was aimed at the use of thew word, and it would not be wrong to state that had genocide been perpetrated and successful, there would be no one left.

Incidentally, the Holocaust included six million Jews, over ELEVEN MILLION gypsies, Poles, Russians, homosexuals, anyone who dared disagree with the New Order..so I am fully aware of the massive scope of this obscenity against Mankind.

My attack was at Wei directly, and was attempting to address yet another US bashing meme / liberal smear.

FlaGator
05-21-2010, 09:54 PM
If they have examples to look at and the US Government didn't do the forced relocation that started with the Trail of Tears, then yeah, the Sioux would have been fine with assimilation. As it was, many of them were fine with the treaties they made until settlers found Gold in the Black Hills and started mining and settling in what, to the Sioux was holy land, and was illegal by treaty for settlers to do. If the US Gov and come in and kicked all the squatters out, the Sioux wouldn't have gone to war.

Can't say much about the Comanche, cuz idk much about their dealings with settlers and the US Gov.

The Apache probably would have raised hell regardless. again, don't know much about their history either.

This has gotten me to start reading a little more about the Indian wars. It seems the Sioux might have been more accepting of assimilation if the government hadn't reneged or ignored so many promises with them. They basically trusted the government at first but after so many examples of broken promises and worthless treaties it seems that to fight was the only opinion they felt they had left.

You are right in your blame of Jackson and the precedence he set in dealing with the Indians. I suspect, however, that many of the plains Indians whose whole way of life revolved around being able to follow their food source irrespective of state boundaries would have cause conflict eventually.

This is a very interesting subject. I haven't really done much reading on it since I left Wyoming. I guess I have a small hobby for this weekend. :)

Sonnabend
05-21-2010, 10:04 PM
I am not sure on books on the Indians...but see what you can find on Hinmatonyalatkit and the Nez Perce. "Bury my heart on Wounded Knee" was not bad, but to my mind lacked a more objective approach.

FlaGator
05-21-2010, 10:12 PM
I am not sure on books on the Indians...but see what you can find on Hinmatonyalatkit and the Nez Perce. "Bury my heart on Wounded Knee" was not bad, but to my mind lacked a more objective approach.

Thank you. I will look for them.

fettpett
05-21-2010, 10:26 PM
This has gotten me to start reading a little more about the Indian wars. It seems the Sioux might have been more accepting of assimilation if the government hadn't reneged or ignored so many promises with them. They basically trusted the government at first but after so many examples of broken promises and worthless treaties it seems that to fight was the only opinion they felt they had left.

You are right in your blame of Jackson and the precedence he set in dealing with the Indians. I suspect, however, that many of the plains Indians whose whole way of life revolved around being able to follow their food source irrespective of state boundaries would have cause conflict eventually.

This is a very interesting subject. I haven't really done much reading on it since I left Wyoming. I guess I have a small hobby for this weekend. :)

food/money would be a pretty easy fix. Turn them into cattle ranchers. Dakotas, Wyoming (as you know) Montana, Nebraska all great for raising cattle, once they see how much money can be made on beef and having it shipped east, they'd be rolling in the dough, for a while anyway. It works well with their lifestyle and the whole tribe would be involved. :D

Good luck on the reading, hope you find something more than: THEZ EVILZ WHITE MEN KILLED ALL THE INDIANS RAWR!!! LOL :D

Sonnabend
05-21-2010, 10:36 PM
http://www.nanations.com/chieftains/chiefjoseph.htm


At last I was granted permission to come to Washington and bring my friend Yellow Bull and our interpreter with me. I am glad I came. I have shaken hands with a good many friends, but there are some things I want to know which no one seems able to explain. I cannot understand how the Government sends a man out to fight us, as it did General Miles, and then breaks his word.

Such a government has something wrong about it. I cannot understand why so many chiefs are allowed to talk so many different ways, and promise so many different things. I have seen the Great Father Chief [President Hayes]; the Next Great Chief [Secretary of the Interior]; the Commissioner Chief; the Law Chief; and many other law chiefs [Congressmen] and they all say they are my friends, and that I shall have justice, but while all their mouths talk right I do not understand why nothing is done for my people.

I have heard talk and talk but nothing is done. Good words do not last long unless they amount to something. Words do not pay for my dead people. They do not pay for my country now overrun by white men. They do not protect my father's grave. They do not pay for my horses and cattle. Good words do not give me back my children. Good words will not make good the promise of your war chief, General Miles. Good words will not give my people a home where they can live in peace and take care of themselves. I am tired of talk that comes to nothing. It makes my heart sick when I remember all the good words and all the broken promises. There has been too much talking by men who had no right to talk.

Too many misinterpretations have been made; too many misunderstandings have come up between the white men and the Indians. If the white man wants to live in peace with the Indian he can live in peace. There need be no trouble. Treat all men alike. Give them the same laws. Give them all an even chance to live and grow. All men were made by the same Great Spirit Chief. They are all brothers. The earth is the mother of all people, and all people should have equal rights upon it. You might as well expect all rivers to run backward as that any man who was born a free man should be contented penned up and denied liberty to go where he pleases. If you tie a horse to a stake, do you expect he will grow fat?

If you pen an Indian up on a small spot of earth and compel him to stay there, he will not be contented nor will he grow and prosper. I have asked some of the Great White Chiefs where they get their authority to say to the Indian that he shall stay in one place, while he sees white men going where they please. They cannot tell me.

No one doubts that the events of the past could have been better.

No one doubts that mistakes were made and that men made foolish and stupid decisions.

No one doubts that history could have been kinder to the Indians.

But genocide? No.

fettpett
05-21-2010, 10:56 PM
If the white man wants to live in peace with the Indian he can live in peace. There need be no trouble. Treat all men alike. Give them the same laws. Give them all an even chance to live and grow. All men were made by the same Great Spirit Chief.

this is all they would have had to do....

PoliCon
05-21-2010, 11:26 PM
It seems the Sioux might have been more accepting of assimilation if the government hadn't reneged or ignored so many promises with them. We have to differentiate between the actions of individuals and the actions of the body politic. Take Custer for example. He had no authority to do what he did - but he was looking to make a name for himself and get a promotion. So he started trouble.

fettpett
05-21-2010, 11:29 PM
We have to differentiate between the actions of individuals and the actions of the body politic. Take Custer for example. He had no authority to do what he did - but he was looking to make a name for himself and get a promotion. So he started trouble.

and ended up dead for his troubles....there was a reason why he graduated DEAD last from West Point :D

PoliCon
05-21-2010, 11:29 PM
http://www.badeagle.com/

An interesting site dealing with indian issues from a conservative perspective.

PoliCon
05-21-2010, 11:30 PM
and ended up dead for his troubles....there was a reason why he graduated DEAD last from West Point :D

yes he did - but the point is - people look at what Custer did and claim government sanction.

fettpett
05-21-2010, 11:38 PM
yes he did - but the point is - people look at what Custer did and claim government sanction.

I know, and I was making fun of Custer. He was a moron. The guy should have known better than to split his forces against an "enemy" that was similar strength as his, particularly one that had a field promotion to General during the Civil War (granted that doesn't mean much seeing how stupid many Northern Generals were at that time period)

M21
05-22-2010, 12:56 AM
Oh and M21, I really have no intention of being lectured by someone who sympathises with eco terrorists.


How's that arrest of Paul Watson workin out for you? By the way Whale Wars Season 3 starts Friday, June 4th on the Discovery Channel.

http://s.myniceprofile.com/myspacepic/478/47831.gif http://s.myniceprofile.com/myspacepic/478/47831.gif

Full-Auto
05-22-2010, 01:03 AM
I get so tired of this pissing and moaning about wanting apologies for this "atrocity" and that invasion... That stuff went on all the time, and still goes on all over the world. I wasn't alive back when we were at war with the Indian's... so I have nothing to apologize for.

Just like every civilization in the past, the Indians fought a war, lost the war and lost the land.

What other conqueror would set aside land for you to occupy and govern yourselves? America could have erased the Indian culture from the face of the earth, yet we preserved it and even honor it today. To bitch about getting your ass kicked well over a hundred years after the event smacks of stupidity.

The same goes for the Mexicans that think they have some right to half of the US because we kicked their asses out years ago. If you feel froggy, leap. Otherwise, shut your mouths and stay on your side of the border. If you persist... well, we haven't played "cowboys and Mexicans" yet... don't push it.

Sonnabend
05-22-2010, 01:06 AM
How's that arrest of Paul Watson workin out for you?

Working great. Watson now has an official arrest warrant out on him, and Bethune is facing ten years in a Japanese prison :D


By the way Whale Wars Season 3 starts Friday, June 4th on the Discovery Channel.

No thanks...I'd rather not hear you fapping away in the background,.

Wei Wu Wei
05-22-2010, 07:32 AM
I get so tired of this pissing and moaning about wanting apologies for this "atrocity" and that invasion... That stuff went on all the time, and still goes on all over the world. I wasn't alive back when we were at war with the Indian's... so I have nothing to apologize for.

Just like every civilization in the past, the Indians fought a war, lost the war and lost the land.

What other conqueror would set aside land for you to occupy and govern yourselves? America could have erased the Indian culture from the face of the earth, yet we preserved it and even honor it today. To bitch about getting your ass kicked well over a hundred years after the event smacks of stupidity.

The same goes for the Mexicans that think they have some right to half of the US because we kicked their asses out years ago. If you feel froggy, leap. Otherwise, shut your mouths and stay on your side of the border. If you persist... well, we haven't played "cowboys and Mexicans" yet... don't push it.

The boasting rationale of the privileged. Music to my ears.

fettpett
05-22-2010, 11:44 AM
The boasting rationale of the privileged. Music to my ears.

out of everything posted, all you comment on is one person saying there is no reason for any apology when an enemy of any country is defeated and call it boasting. you're a moron.

tell me where your family is from and I'll find at lest 2-4 conquerors that did the exact same thing the US did or worse, most likely FAR worse

Wei Wu Wei
05-22-2010, 01:25 PM
out of everything posted, all you comment on is one person saying there is no reason for any apology when an enemy of any country is defeated and call it boasting. you're a moron.

tell me where your family is from and I'll find at lest 2-4 conquerors that did the exact same thing the US did or worse, most likely FAR worse

I'm saying it's just a little to easy and convenient to take that position when you're born into privilege. Oh it was just a fair game of wits and we won because we rule booya. No actually history is a bit more complex than that. The native americans never declared "war" on the british empire, europeans simply came over and systematically wiped out an entire continent of people for political and economic gain. The Americans continued this long after revolting from the Empire.

It's not pretty, but it happened.

For God's sake America is not perfect, people grow up thinking America literally is Captain America and cannot accept that our country has it's own flaws, problems, mistakes, and stains on history like every other country. I guess it doesn't apply to us because WE'RE AMERICANS DAMN IT BOOM HELL YEAH BUILT FORD TUFF LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT FROM MY COLD DEAD HANDS FREEEEDDOOMMMMM

Speedy
05-22-2010, 01:43 PM
Hey dipshit, I am 1/2 Mescalero Apache because of my 100% Mescalero Apache mom. I am also a registered tribe member and I believe that if the Indians lost, they have every right to take back what is their's the same way. Where does that leave your stupid, "born into priviledge" comments?

PoliCon
05-22-2010, 02:47 PM
No actually history is a bit more complex than that. The native americans never declared "war" on the british empire, europeans simply came over and systematically wiped out an entire continent of people for political and economic gain.Make up your mind - either history is a bit more complex or it's as simple as the europeans coming over to the Americas with the notion of: lets just fucking kill of them damn redskins and steal their land for political and economic gain. :rolleyes: You're indian name would be "fucktard talks out his ass."

Wei Wu Wei
05-22-2010, 03:03 PM
Hey dipshit, I am 1/2 Mescalero Apache because of my 100% Mescalero Apache mom. I am also a registered tribe member and I believe that if the Indians lost, they have every right to take back what is their's the same way. Where does that leave your stupid, "born into priviledge" comments?

Leaves them where they were, not referring to you.

Wei Wu Wei
05-22-2010, 03:05 PM
Make up your mind - either history is a bit more complex or it's as simple as the europeans coming over to the Americas with the notion of: lets just fucking kill of them damn redskins and steal their land for political and economic gain. :rolleyes: You're indian name would be "fucktard talks out his ass."

that's a simplistic picture, but it's closer to the more complex truth. yes there was aggression on both sides, but to call the Empires of Europe colonizing the Americas a "war" is silly. it was pure imperialism.

fettpett
05-22-2010, 07:49 PM
that's a simplistic picture, but it's closer to the more complex truth. yes there was aggression on both sides, but to call the Empires of Europe colonizing the Americas a "war" is silly. it was pure imperialism.

and you wouldn't be here (and that doesn't mean necessarily the US) If it wasn't for that "pure imperialism".

Unless they are complete ignorant FOOL, No one thinks that the US is perfect or has a perfect past. We've made mistakes, Slavery and how the various tribes were treated was far from perfect. WE FUCKING HUMAN of course we're not perfect, NOTHING we do is perfect. The people were doing what they were doing for one simple thing, GREED.

You libs think that the Indians where these damn perfect people that were completely wiped out because they were soft and weak. Guess what? Various tribes sold out other tribes for one simple reason, GREED! Colonist would pay tribes to go kill other tribes. Some tribes would kill Colonist and blame it on other tribes. Hey, guess what? Europeans did the exact same thing to each other.

And how about the Aztecs...the fucking committed Human SACRIFICE! Until the Spanish wiped them out. you think THEY should have been left alone? (the Aztec Empire was FIVE TIMES as big as Spain, and the capital had 100,000 people 4x the size of London)

We ALL have the privilege of playing Monday Morning Quarterback 130 years later, including your dumbass self.

They did fight Wars with the Indians. Yes they may have come here looking for gold and silver and looking to exploit any Empires they found. They didn't find them and decided to work and trade with the Indian's instead of kill them off.

NJCardFan
05-22-2010, 08:35 PM
If I've said it once, I've said it a million times. If people feel so strongly about how the Indians were treated, feel free to find a Native American family and willfully hand the deed to your house right on over to them. If you're not willing to do that, shut the fuck up about it.

Sonnabend
05-22-2010, 08:45 PM
If I've said it once, I've said it a million times. If people feel so strongly about how the Indians were treated, feel free to find a Native American family and willfully hand the deed to your house right on over to them. If you're not willing to do that, shut the fuck up about it.

http://www.pinqradio.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/applause.gif

PoliCon
05-22-2010, 09:39 PM
that's a simplistic picture, but it's closer to the more complex truth. yes there was aggression on both sides, but to call the Empires of Europe colonizing the Americas a "war" is silly. it was pure imperialism.

And the Indians never once wiped out their neighbors to the man so that they could have the other tribes land? :rolleyes:

Articulate_Ape
05-22-2010, 11:29 PM
http://www.hvchronic.com/volume_1/no_2/CryingIndian.jpg

Iron Eyes Cody (April 3, 1904 – January 4, 1999) was an American actor. He was recognized for portraying Native Americans in Hollywood films. Near the end of his life, his Italian ancestry was made public. In 1995 he was honored by the Native American community for his portrayals.

Full-Auto
05-23-2010, 12:22 AM
I'm saying it's just a little to easy and convenient to take that position when you're born into privilege. Oh it was just a fair game of wits and we won because we rule booya. No actually history is a bit more complex than that. The native americans never declared "war" on the british empire, europeans simply came over and systematically wiped out an entire continent of people for political and economic gain. The Americans continued this long after revolting from the Empire.
There is no need to make a formal declaration of war... that's a European concept anyway. For thinking you're such a student of history, you really don't understand much about the culture of which you speak.

And it wasn't all about white/English aggression as your post so ignorantly suggests. First off, the Powhatan decimated a peaceful James Town population. Fighting between European settlers and Natives occurred regularly in the 1600's and 1700's and both sides were aggressors.

Step forward in time and Abnaki and Mohawk raids took place against English colonists. Of course these tribes were doing the bidding of their French cohorts. The Chickasaws and Cherokees attacked French colonists in an effort to aid the English as well.

So it wasn't as cut and dry as you seem to think. There were aggressors on all sides, alliances between strange bedfellows and ultimately the Europeans, mostly the English colonists, took the prize and kicked all their asses to claim the United States.

The point is, there's not a land mass on this planet that wasn't conquered, pillaged or raided by someone... including the Americas. You seem to think that the Indians getting their asses kicked was somehow unique or special in the grand scheme of things, but if you knew jack shit about history you would know it really wasn't.

Sitting here hundreds of years after the fact belaboring who did what to whom and issuing apologies is absolutely stupid. I'm sure it gives the libtards a chill up their spine because they love that meaningless touchy-feely homoerotic non-sense... but I don't. Most rational people with lives don't give two craps either.

Rockntractor
05-23-2010, 12:29 AM
Bottom line, most people need to suck it up and own responsibility for their own lives and destinies instead of blaming their failure and inadequacies on all the generations before them!

Sonnabend
05-23-2010, 12:31 AM
Some people dont know when to squawk when it hurts...others dont know when to stop squawking when the hurt is over = Catchclaw To-Ennien

Rockntractor
05-23-2010, 12:45 AM
People like Wei Wei are the worst kind of racist bigots, they would have us believe that our minority people are to stupid to take care of themselves and need to be coddled and taken care of like children or imbeciles, a man is a man, stay out of his way and he will find his way on his own!

enslaved1
05-23-2010, 01:10 AM
http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/us-apologises-to-american-indians/story-e6frfku0-1225868996848

So should I hold my breath and wait for the various indian tribes to apologize for the massacres and other atrocities they committed against settlers? :rolleyes:

Stuff happens, it's over, deal with it. BOTH sides. I quit reading the thread about 6 pages in, but I did not shoot any Indians, own any slaves, make any anti-Jap propaganda in WWII, or draw any obscene cartoons of Mohamed. There is no white guilt on my hands, just like there shouldn't be any black guilt on the descendants of the tribal leaders who happily captured and sold those slaves to the Europeans, or Hispanic folks feel guilty for all those human sacrifices the Mayans performed, at least not once they admit the white guilt meme is fertilizer.

fettpett
05-23-2010, 08:50 AM
Stuff happens, it's over, deal with it. BOTH sides. I quit reading the thread about 6 pages in, but I did not shoot any Indians, own any slaves, make any anti-Jap propaganda in WWII, or draw any obscene cartoons of Mohamed. There is no white guilt on my hands, just like there shouldn't be any black guilt on the descendants of the tribal leaders who happily captured and sold those slaves to the Europeans, or Hispanic folks feel guilty for all those human sacrifices the Mayans performed, at least not once they admit the white guilt meme is fertilizer.

actually it was the Aztec's that were performing human sacrifices :P

Sonnabend
05-23-2010, 09:38 AM
Mayans AND the Mexica of Cem-Anahuac (they were never known as Aztec)

Wei Wu Wei
05-23-2010, 03:38 PM
There is no need to make a formal declaration of war... that's a European concept anyway. For thinking you're such a student of history, you really don't understand much about the culture of which you speak.

And it wasn't all about white/English aggression as your post so ignorantly suggests. First off, the Powhatan decimated a peaceful James Town population. Fighting between European settlers and Natives occurred regularly in the 1600's and 1700's and both sides were aggressors.

Step forward in time and Abnaki and Mohawk raids took place against English colonists. Of course these tribes were doing the bidding of their French cohorts. The Chickasaws and Cherokees attacked French colonists in an effort to aid the English as well.

Right, there was fighting on both sides, the native americans defended themselves and even retaliated and even more than that.

Europeans came here and ended up ruling the entire northern continent while natives were all but wiped out.

The native americans weren't special perfect people, in nice harmony with nature and the ideal that this place lost when the europeans came here. They were people just like everyone else, people with flaws, people with joy and pain and despair.


So it wasn't as cut and dry as you seem to think. There were aggressors on all sides, alliances between strange bedfellows and ultimately the Europeans, mostly the English colonists, took the prize and kicked all their asses to claim the United States.

The point is, there's not a land mass on this planet that wasn't conquered, pillaged or raided by someone... including the Americas. You seem to think that the Indians getting their asses kicked was somehow unique or special in the grand scheme of things, but if you knew jack shit about history you would know it really wasn't.

Sitting here hundreds of years after the fact belaboring who did what to whom and issuing apologies is absolutely stupid. I'm sure it gives the libtards a chill up their spine because they love that meaningless touchy-feely homoerotic non-sense... but I don't. Most rational people with lives don't give two craps either.

Right, every culture has a history that is brutal and filled with stains, including our own. It's how we got to be here. What I object to is this American Exceptionalism bs that teaches kids that America is all rightness, goodness, and the perfect country, the best nation the worlds ever seen and any discussion of the people who suffered so that you and I can have privileged things is shunned as being anti-American.

It may seem silly to issue an apology hundreds of years later, but why is it that such a small gesture it took so long?

Wei Wu Wei
05-23-2010, 03:39 PM
People like Wei Wei are the worst kind of racist bigots, they would have us believe that our minority people are to stupid to take care of themselves and need to be coddled and taken care of like children or imbeciles, a man is a man, stay out of his way and he will find his way on his own!

This entire post is under this premise that we live in a land of equality of opportunity.

That's just not true.

djones520
05-23-2010, 04:02 PM
There is no need to make a formal declaration of war... that's a European concept anyway. For thinking you're such a student of history, you really don't understand much about the culture of which you speak.

And it wasn't all about white/English aggression as your post so ignorantly suggests. First off, the Powhatan decimated a peaceful James Town population. Fighting between European settlers and Natives occurred regularly in the 1600's and 1700's and both sides were aggressors.

Step forward in time and Abnaki and Mohawk raids took place against English colonists. Of course these tribes were doing the bidding of their French cohorts. The Chickasaws and Cherokees attacked French colonists in an effort to aid the English as well.

So it wasn't as cut and dry as you seem to think. There were aggressors on all sides, alliances between strange bedfellows and ultimately the Europeans, mostly the English colonists, took the prize and kicked all their asses to claim the United States.

The point is, there's not a land mass on this planet that wasn't conquered, pillaged or raided by someone... including the Americas. You seem to think that the Indians getting their asses kicked was somehow unique or special in the grand scheme of things, but if you knew jack shit about history you would know it really wasn't.

Sitting here hundreds of years after the fact belaboring who did what to whom and issuing apologies is absolutely stupid. I'm sure it gives the libtards a chill up their spine because they love that meaningless touchy-feely homoerotic non-sense... but I don't. Most rational people with lives don't give two craps either.

Probably the smartest post I've seen in this entire thread.

Rockntractor
05-23-2010, 04:08 PM
This entire post is under this premise that we live in a land of equality of opportunity.

That's just not true.

Pussies like you will never be equal to hard working red blooded Americans! you should move, your diluting our gene pool.:rolleyes: