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FlaGator
05-21-2010, 04:54 PM
Seems like you can get around a Supreme Court decision by simply violating it and the U.S. government will assist you.


A cross similar to the one that was stolen nearly two weeks ago was mysteriously erected in the Mojave National Preserve but quickly removed after authorities said it was illegal.

The replica cross, which was six inches taller than the original one, appeared in the federal park in California on Thursday. Park officials said it was a violation to put up the cross without government authorization.


Since the cross a war memorial was stolen on May 9 or 10, some have offered to replace it. Henry Sandoz, the cross' caretaker for some 20 years, also has a replacement cross tucked away in his barn but was waiting for permission from the federal parks service to place it on top of Sunrise Rock.


The memorial cross has been at the center of a nearly 10-year court battle. A former National Park Service employee who lives in Oregon filed a lawsuit in 2001, claiming the memorial is a religious symbol and violates the Establishment Clause.
Veterans have insisted that the cross, which was erected by World War I veterans to honor the nation's war dead, is not intended to convey a religious message. Rather, it was simply put up to honor those who sacrificed their lives for the country.


In 2002, Congress passed legislation ordering the park services to transfer the one acre of land upon which the memorial was standing to a private party the Veterans of Foreign Wars in exchange for five acres of donated land.
Last month, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that the memorial could stay standing while a lower court decides whether the land transfer was legal.


Some are outraged that the National Park Service is refusing to allow a replacement cross to stand in the place of the stolen one.


The story is here (http://www.christianpost.com/article/20100521/replacement-memorial-cross-torn-down/index.html)

NJCardFan
05-21-2010, 10:59 PM
Ah, the open minded liberals at it again.

Rockntractor
05-21-2010, 11:01 PM
And once again we roll over for the liberals, is anybody mad yet?:rolleyes:

FlaGator
05-21-2010, 11:07 PM
And once again we roll over for the liberals, is anybody mad yet?:rolleyes:

Everything the do makes me mad.

Rockntractor
05-21-2010, 11:29 PM
Everything the do makes me mad.

I don't know how you feel about this but I'm no very optimistic about this country anymore. Some people think we are gaining ground but to me it seams like every day we lose something else to the liberals, every time we take a step forward they back us up three and we stand back proudly and say that ought to show um.

PoliCon
05-21-2010, 11:35 PM
Put it back up and have a camera on hand. Footage of park rangers getting violent with elderly vets would make for interesting viewing.

FlaGator
05-21-2010, 11:40 PM
I don't know how you feel about this but I'm no very optimistic about this country anymore. Some people think we are gaining ground but to me it seams like every day we lose something else to the liberals, every time we take a step forward they back us up three and we stand back proudly and say that ought to show um.

I tend to agree with your lack of optimism. I see things getting worse and worse and hardly a person lifting a finger to stop it. Morally we are a nation in free fall and the libs just tell us how nice the breeze is.

Rockntractor
05-21-2010, 11:57 PM
I tend to agree with your lack of optimism. I see things getting worse and worse and hardly a person lifting a finger to stop it. Morally we are a nation in free fall and the libs just tell us how nice the breeze is.
I'm at the point of just hoping for heaven and letting country and politics fall where they may. Many of our citizens have earned what will be happening to them due to their political choices, it's a shame that we fall with them!

fettpett
05-22-2010, 12:07 AM
I'm at the point of just hoping for heaven and letting country and politics fall where they may. Many of our citizens have earned what will be happening to them due to their political choices, it's a shame that we fall with them!

amen

FlaGator
05-22-2010, 12:11 AM
I'm at the point of just hoping for heaven and letting country and politics fall where they may. Many of our citizens have earned what will be happening to them due to their political choices, it's a shame that we fall with them!

Yes my friend, I am very familiar with that feeling.

Wei Wu Wei
05-22-2010, 07:34 AM
Militant atheists are the worst. What kind of fool gets so mad and reactionary about something they don't even believe in. It's like me filing a burglery report against Santa Clause.

Wei Wu Wei
05-22-2010, 07:35 AM
I'm torn between my disdain for militant atheists and religious fundamentalists, two sides of the same coin.

Wei Wu Wei
05-22-2010, 07:35 AM
Or perhaps I should say, two sides of a mobius strip

MrsSmith
05-22-2010, 08:59 AM
I'm torn between my disdain for militant atheists and religious fundamentalists, two sides of the same coin.

With the "minor" difference that militant atheists spend immense amounts of time and taxpayer money trying to destroy something they can never destroy, or sneak around tearing down monuments and burning churches...while fundamentalists of the true God spend their time and their own money doing things like running missionary trips that provide food, water, shelter, education and other needs to the extremely poor; build, donate to and run food banks, crisis pregnancy centers, and homeless shelters; maintain buildings for the use of their members...and all others for shelter in disaster; run disaster kitchens and other disaster relief; run non-profits businesses that serve those that need help but can't afford high prices; etc, etc...

Not that this should make any difference in your opinion. :rolleyes:

Wei Wu Wei
05-22-2010, 01:19 PM
With the "minor" difference that militant atheists spend immense amounts of time and taxpayer money trying to destroy something they can never destroy, or sneak around tearing down monuments and burning churches...while fundamentalists of the true God spend their time and their own money doing things like running missionary trips that provide food, water, shelter, education and other needs to the extremely poor; build, donate to and run food banks, crisis pregnancy centers, and homeless shelters; maintain buildings for the use of their members...and all others for shelter in disaster; run disaster kitchens and other disaster relief; run non-profits businesses that serve those that need help but can't afford high prices; etc, etc...

Not that this should make any difference in your opinion. :rolleyes:

Those things are appreciated, but they are also the group that brings us anti-every-other-religion movements, programs that are proven ineffective simply out of moral grounds (like Abstinence-Only sex education), a full on assault on scientific epistemology (the evolution "debate"), and a sort of rigidity that I find to be a barrier to true spiritual growth.

My own opinion is that the really fundamentalist types feel the anxiety of life and need very specific reassurance of their beliefs, whereas my interpretation of true religion (or at least Christianity) involves accepting and embracing that anxiety and the inevitable hole in our symbolic reality. It's terrifying but you gotta step off the boat in order to walk on water.

Still, the latter is just a difference in belief, the former are detrimental and divisive.

NJCardFan
05-22-2010, 03:16 PM
I'm at the point of just hoping for heaven and letting country and politics fall where they may. Many of our citizens have earned what will be happening to them due to their political choices, it's a shame that we fall with them!

Agreed. The fact that these people call themselves "progressives" is laughable. Unless by progressive they mean we're progressing up shit creek without a paddle.

MrsSmith
05-22-2010, 06:18 PM
Those things are appreciated, but they are also the group that brings us anti-every-other-religion movements, programs that are proven ineffective simply out of moral grounds (like Abstinence-Only sex education), a full on assault on scientific epistemology (the evolution "debate"), and a sort of rigidity that I find to be a barrier to true spiritual growth. You are aware that fundamentalist programs to help prison inmates have a recidivism rate about 1/10th of any other program..therefore not at all ineffective. The abstinence programs do have the effect of raising the age of those engaging in sex for the first time...a fact seldom printed by our media, surprise, surprise. Evolution deserves a debate, as do all other scientific theories. And your rigidity is hardly due to any true fundamental belief in God.


My own opinion is that the really fundamentalist types feel the anxiety of life and need very specific reassurance of their beliefs, whereas my interpretation of true religion (or at least Christianity) involves accepting and embracing that anxiety and the inevitable hole in our symbolic reality. It's terrifying but you gotta step off the boat in order to walk on water.

Still, the latter is just a difference in belief, the former are detrimental and divisive.

Your opinion is this matter shows great lack of knowledge. The fundamentalists are the ones that step off the boat...and into whatever God chooses for them, be it missionary work, sacrificial giving, or local service. Those requiring very specific reassurance of their beliefs are the ones going around filing law suits to silence disagreement with unproven scientific theories and any other speech that they dislike...in complete disregard for the exact speech protected by the First Amendment.

Lager
05-22-2010, 09:15 PM
Those things are appreciated, but they are also the group that brings us anti-every-other-religion movements, programs that are proven ineffective simply out of moral grounds (like Abstinence-Only sex education), a full on assault on scientific epistemology (the evolution "debate"), and a sort of rigidity that I find to be a barrier to true spiritual growth.

My own opinion is that the really fundamentalist types feel the anxiety of life and need very specific reassurance of their beliefs, whereas my interpretation of true religion (or at least Christianity) involves accepting and embracing that anxiety and the inevitable hole in our symbolic reality. It's terrifying but you gotta step off the boat in order to walk on water.

Still, the latter is just a difference in belief, the former are detrimental and divisive.

You should seriously consider getting out and living life, you might meet real and interesting people instead of soaking up one sided information from a narrow range of books and internet sources.

I mean seriously. I won't pretend that the conservative side is always right, nor that the left has it all wrong. Or that anyone of us has even a few of the answers.

Reality is a lot more nuanced, complicated and complex than that. And let's face it, sometimes opinions don't mean jack when the full weight and terror of the balls out, gloves off, in your face struggle called life appears from behind the flimsey curtain that shields the comfortable make believe world our prosperity has created.
Sometimes when the curtain shifts a little, we may realize that all these words we type are only good for getting thru a few moments of idle boredom.

All these things that you appear to rail against are just tepid caricatures, They have less substance than strawmen. "Religious fundamentalists"? Have you ever met such a creature and actually had a serious conversation with it? That phrase is just an empty outline of something you read about or heard others on the left describe over and over. There's no such thing that exists that can be described as simply and as narrowly as that.

If you would go out and meet actual people you would find that the motives they have for thinking the way they do are so much more expansive and interesting than can be fit into a sound byte or post on a liberal blog or message board. Quit clinging to the ghosts of the golden years of the sixties, where all the answers the left needed could be explained by white racism, or evil corporations, or the military industrial complex. You guys ARE the establishment now.

If you really want to get into liberalism, then delve deep and don't just scratch the dust of it's stale past. Decide what it really means to you and recreate it fresh. Maybe go out in the desert with Don Juan and some peyote and meditate on it. Go live with people you believe are your enemies for three years without criticizing them once, and then decide who they are. Then maybe your words will have some weight behind them.