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Gingersnap
05-24-2010, 10:40 AM
Updated May 22, 2010
Arizona Seeks to Reassign Heavily Accented Teachers
By Casey Stegall
- FOXNews.com

After passing the nation's toughest immigration law, Arizona's school officials are now cracking down on teachers with heavy accents.

After passing the nation's toughest state immigration enforcement law, Arizona's school officials are now cracking down on teachers with heavy accents.

The Arizona Department of Education is sending evaluators to audit teachers and their English speaking skills to make sure districts are complying with state and federal laws.

Teachers who are not fluent in English, who make grammatical errors while speaking or who have heavy accents will be temporarily reassigned.

"As you expect science teachers to know science, math teachers to know math, you expect a teacher who is teaching the kids English to know English," said Tom Home, state superintendent of public instruction.

In 2000, voters passed a referendum which stipulated that instruction of these classes be offered only in English. Then in 2003, President Bush's No Child Left Behind act stated schools couldn't receive federal funding unless an English teacher was totally fluent in the language.

For the most part, the state is in compliance, but not all teachers are up to standards. Of the 236 total districts in the state, nine were cited for not being in compliance with fluency regulation this year.

Critics say with deep cuts to education thanks to the failing economy, the state should focus elsewhere. The Arizona Education Association, a union representing some 34,000 teachers, refused speak to Fox News.

Of the 1.2 million students in Arizona public schools, roughly 150,000 are learning English as a second language.

"It's my jobs to make sure they're taught English in the most rigorous, possible way so they can learn English quickly, can compete with their peers, and succeed academically," Home told Fox News.

Good for them. We had a problem out here a few years ago with Mexican teachers in the public school system. They were hired to teach bilingual classes but they were incompetent in English.

Maybe AZ can crack down on public universities next. One of the big open secrets in higher ed is the large number of math/science classes taught by foreign grad students and adjuncts who aren't fluent in English. It's a big barrier when students can't understand the instructor.

Fox (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/05/22/arizona-seeks-reassign-heavily-accented-teachers/?test=latestnews)

noonwitch
05-24-2010, 10:44 AM
Well, if the proper grammar requirements are being applied to all Arizona teachers and not just those of hispanic ethnicity, I don't have a problem with it. That means Coach Bob has to use proper grammar when he's yelling at his football players.

Gingersnap
05-24-2010, 10:50 AM
Well, if the proper grammar requirements are being applied to all Arizona teachers and not just those of hispanic ethnicity, I don't have a problem with it. That means Coach Bob has to use proper grammar when he's yelling at his football players.

It only seems to apply to teachers teaching English or other subjects where fluency and pronunciation are important. Coach Bob is off the hook as is that dippy art teacher. :D

lacarnut
05-24-2010, 11:03 AM
Well, if the proper grammar requirements are being applied to all Arizona teachers and not just those of hispanic ethnicity, I don't have a problem with it. That means Coach Bob has to use proper grammar when he's yelling at his football players.

Does that mean that union teachers in Detroit and other liberal cities are verboten from using ebonics and rap crap in the classroom?

NJCardFan
05-24-2010, 11:53 AM
Well, if the proper grammar requirements are being applied to all Arizona teachers and not just those of hispanic ethnicity, I don't have a problem with it. That means Coach Bob has to use proper grammar when he's yelling at his football players.

Negative. Not funny that way. I can't imagine Coach Kutcher using proper English. How would you say, "You're not a pimple on a football player's butt."

Novaheart
05-24-2010, 12:03 PM
Well, if the proper grammar requirements are being applied to all Arizona teachers and not just those of hispanic ethnicity, I don't have a problem with it. That means Coach Bob has to use proper grammar when he's yelling at his football players.

At Mega Bank there was a "quality standard" handed down which said that operators would be graded on the usual things, but also proper speaking and grammar.

It was immediately countermanded by HR. HR is rather like the Supreme Court of corporation world in such matters. HR can reverse almost any personnel decision made below CEO. Many black, hispanic, and PWT of course were going to be marked down under the new standard.

Once in a staff meeting when the big manager asked who was bilingual, I raised my hand. "What languages do you speak?" she asked. I said, "I speak the kind of English most people around here speak, but I also speak proper English."

Novaheart
05-24-2010, 12:06 PM
Good for them. We had a problem out here a few years ago with Mexican teachers in the public school system. They were hired to teach bilingual classes but they were incompetent in English.


I called Live Oak High School of Morgan Hill to give them an earful about the flag shirt on Cinco de Mayo incident and when I was transferred to the voicemail of Miguel Rodriguez, his accent is so heavy he doesn't sound like an American who speaks Spanish, he sounds like a Mexican who might speak English.

noonwitch
05-24-2010, 02:27 PM
Does that mean that union teachers in Detroit and other liberal cities are verboten from using ebonics and rap crap in the classroom?


One can hope. I know a few Detroit teachers from my work contacts and from church. Most don't use ebonics in the classroom, unless it's an isolated statement to make a point, after proper english has failed.

Ebonics is slang, it's just black-american slang. I don't know who even came up with the word ebonics. Back in the 70s, Jesse Jackson used to give speeches about how black youth should not speak "Black English", which is what is was called then. He thought that black kids were disrespecting themselves by speaking that way. I miss that Jesse Jackson, he seems to have disappeared.

Wei Wu Wei
05-24-2010, 03:14 PM
Split-Labor Market Theory of Ethnic Antagonism.

FlaGator
05-24-2010, 03:18 PM
Vee r keelin da gearl t'nite old't maan.

Novaheart
05-24-2010, 05:14 PM
One can hope. I know a few Detroit teachers from my work contacts and from church. Most don't use ebonics in the classroom, unless it's an isolated statement to make a point, after proper english has failed.

Ebonics is slang, it's just black-american slang. I don't know who even came up with the word ebonics. Back in the 70s, Jesse Jackson used to give speeches about how black youth should not speak "Black English", which is what is was called then. He thought that black kids were disrespecting themselves by speaking that way. I miss that Jesse Jackson, he seems to have disappeared.

There was an attempt to legitimize ebonics as part of the afrocentric education movement, particularly in Oakland California. The idea was to portray the vernacular as a dialect with a distinct and formal grammar of its own. They maintained that there was a tense difference between I am, I be, and I was.

Odysseus
05-24-2010, 05:46 PM
Well, if the proper grammar requirements are being applied to all Arizona teachers and not just those of hispanic ethnicity, I don't have a problem with it. That means Coach Bob has to use proper grammar when he's yelling at his football players.
As long as the profanity is properly parsed, yes. :D

Negative. Not funny that way. I can't imagine Coach Kutcher using proper English. How would you say, "You're not a pimple on a football player's butt."

You would say "You're not a pimple on a football player's butt." That's a perfectly grammatical sentence.

malloc
05-24-2010, 06:04 PM
I had a Geometry II teacher who was foreign, not from a Spanish speaking country but somewhere in West Europe I guess, when I went to Camelback High in Phoenix. I didn't have a problem in that class, even though I did have a problem understanding him. I guess working around an accent when dealing with solid concepts like equations and proofs is pretty easy. If we weren't understanding him, all he had to do was demonstrate the idea on the dry-erase board, and go through it step by step. I never did have an English teacher who had a heavy accent though, though I did have one that would slip into ebonics occasionally, which we though was hysterical.

In boot camp my Senior Drill Instructor, Gunnery Sergeant Massa, was a naturalized citizen from Guatemala. I can't count how many times we went to the pit, or played 'racks to the port, racks to the starboard' because the entire platoon couldn't figure out what the heck he was telling us to do. Towards week 9 or so, it kind of dawned on us that he was probably doing it on purpose.

ralph wiggum
05-24-2010, 06:23 PM
Good for them. We had a problem out here a few years ago with Mexican teachers in the public school system. They were hired to teach bilingual classes but they were incompetent in English.

Maybe AZ can crack down on public universities next. One of the big open secrets in higher ed is the large number of math/science classes taught by foreign grad students and adjuncts who aren't fluent in English. It's a big barrier when students can't understand the instructor.

Fox (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/05/22/arizona-seeks-reassign-heavily-accented-teachers/?test=latestnews)

I wish they would have cracked down at my private university. I had three Asian professors in the business school, one spoke fluent English, the other two were damn near impossible to understand.

PoliCon
05-24-2010, 11:06 PM
I took a philosophy course in college with a Frog that had just come to America the semester before and only started learning the language once he got here. :rolleyes: Sweet Mary Mother of God I LOATHED that class!!

Reality is - how are you going to be 'well qualified to teach English when you can't even speak the language properly?

Sonnabend
05-25-2010, 08:45 AM
Split-Labor Market Theory of Ethnic Antagonism.

Stone the crows, cobber, dont come the raw prawn with me. strewth, the drongo's got a roo loose in the top paddock.

Hoo roo, squire.

Odysseus
05-25-2010, 08:57 AM
I had a Geometry II teacher who was foreign, not from a Spanish speaking country but somewhere in West Europe I guess, when I went to Camelback High in Phoenix. I didn't have a problem in that class, even though I did have a problem understanding him. I guess working around an accent when dealing with solid concepts like equations and proofs is pretty easy. If we weren't understanding him, all he had to do was demonstrate the idea on the dry-erase board, and go through it step by step. I never did have an English teacher who had a heavy accent though, though I did have one that would slip into ebonics occasionally, which we though was hysterical.

In boot camp my Senior Drill Instructor, Gunnery Sergeant Massa, was a naturalized citizen from Guatemala. I can't count how many times we went to the pit, or played 'racks to the port, racks to the starboard' because the entire platoon couldn't figure out what the heck he was telling us to do. Towards week 9 or so, it kind of dawned on us that he was probably doing it on purpose.

My high school English teacher was Frank McCourt, of Angela's Ashes fame. He taught English in the NYC school system with a very heavy Irish brogue, but we found that it made the class more interesting (it didn't hurt that he was a brilliant teacher).

One of my drill sergeants in basic training was SGT Roman, who was from the Carribean by way of Brooklyn, which made for some very interesting drill and ceremony. I was the only New Yorker in the platoon, so I was the only one who could understand him. He was a great NCO.

noonwitch
05-25-2010, 09:34 AM
My high school English teacher was Frank McCourt, of Angela's Ashes fame. He taught English in the NYC school system with a very heavy Irish brogue, but we found that it made the class more interesting (it didn't hurt that he was a brilliant teacher).

One of my drill sergeants in basic training was SGT Roman, who was from the Carribean by way of Brooklyn, which made for some very interesting drill and ceremony. I was the only New Yorker in the platoon, so I was the only one who could understand him. He was a great NCO.


That's so cool that Frank McCourt was one of your teachers. I really enjoyed his book, it's a very inspiring story of finding success in this country after having a childhood of poverty in Ireland.

Wei Wu Wei
05-25-2010, 04:11 PM
Stone the crows, cobber, dont come the raw prawn with me. strewth, the drongo's got a roo loose in the top paddock.

Hoo roo, squire.

Oh for the love of god

Here read for yourself:

http://www.easy-share.com/1910369301/SplitLaborMarket.pdf

Sonnabend
05-25-2010, 04:54 PM
Fair suck of the sav, cobber,sounds like you've been into the amber nectar again, tell ya what, get onto the old dog and bone, have a word with the trouble and strife, and she'll be apples.

Avagoyamug.

Odysseus
05-25-2010, 04:54 PM
Oh for the love of god

Here read for yourself:

http://www.easy-share.com/1910369301/SplitLaborMarket.pdf
Not applicable.

Split labor market theory argues that ethnic antagonism emerges where two or more groups of workers who are ethnically distinct vie for the same jobs, but one of the critical factors is that the cost of hiring workers from one group must be significantly lower than the cost of hiring from the other group. This might make sense in the construction industry, where Mexican workers do work for less than minimum wage, but it cannot apply here. Teachers contracts in Arizona are based on the union rules, so there cannot be a significant disparity in cost between those teachers who are fluent in English and those who are not. If those teachers are incurring a greater cost because of bilingual stipends, and they are not fluent in English, then they are not actually fulfilling their contracts, and those who are fluent and are able to speak clearly are not going to be affected. Split labor market theory cannot apply here. QED.

Wei Wu Wei
05-25-2010, 05:32 PM
Not applicable.

Split labor market theory argues that ethnic antagonism emerges where two or more groups of workers who are ethnically distinct vie for the same jobs, but one of the critical factors is that the cost of hiring workers from one group must be significantly lower than the cost of hiring from the other group. This might make sense in the construction industry, where Mexican workers do work for less than minimum wage, but it cannot apply here. Teachers contracts in Arizona are based on the union rules, so there cannot be a significant disparity in cost between those teachers who are fluent in English and those who are not. If those teachers are incurring a greater cost because of bilingual stipends, and they are not fluent in English, then they are not actually fulfilling their contracts, and those who are fluent and are able to speak clearly are not going to be affected. Split labor market theory cannot apply here. QED.

True, it doesn't apply to this industry, but what the theory suggests is that when the conditions are right (which you illustrated well in your post), ethnic antagonism rises. This means that laws based on ethnic antagonism will be enforced.

The idea is that, the 3 groups, including the 2 labor groups are present, and as a result race-based policies, attitudes, and laws are passed.

These series of laws in Arizona won't actually do much, but they are fueling the support of people in Arizona who are feeling the sting of ethnic antagonism caused by the circumstances outlined previously.

For example, right now there could be a law passed saying that clothing that resembles "gang member clothing" is reasonable suspicion to stop somebody. That doesn't have immediate economic consequences but it could have support because of the atmosphere of ethnic antagonism in the state.


--------


As for this law, the accent thing is crap. If they can pass the required test to teach English, then clearly they must be fluent in english, otherwise the state needs to revise it's standards.

Wei Wu Wei
05-25-2010, 05:32 PM
So, in line with this theory, when the conditions are right (as they are now), it's politically smart to push for policies that cater to the ethnic antagonisms of the people.

PoliCon
05-25-2010, 05:37 PM
So, in line with this theory, when the conditions are right (as they are now), it's politically smart to push for policies that cater to the ethnic antagonisms of the people.

the only people antagonized are illegals and their supporters. I could care less if those demographics are antagonized.