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Gingersnap
05-27-2010, 11:38 AM
Croatia: Government moves to legalise incest


Zagreb, 27 May (AKI) - Croatia is drafting a bill to legalise incest between consenting adults in the predominantly Catholic country, local media said on Thursday. Under the draft bill, adult sexual relations between brother and sister, father and daughter and mother and son would no longer be a criminal offence if they are entered into voluntarily.

A group of prominent jurists, professors and lawyers were working on the bill, but it was too early to say whether, or when, it would be tabled in parliament, Zagreb daily Vecernji reported.

“It is an open question whether the time is ripe to free adults from criminal responsibility for such behaviour,” said doctor Velinka Grozdanic, a member of the task group.

But Ksenija Turkovic, a Zagreb University law professor and head of the group, said that legislation in many European countries was moving towards legalising incest.

She said incest has been legal in France for over 200 years, but recent legalisation moves in Germany have failed.

“If an adult brother and sister willingly indulge in sex, who is the victim that should be protected,” Turkovic asked.

“There is no victim, only public morality is violated."

Prominent Catholic commentator Zivko Kustic said that the abolition of punishment was not necessarily tantamount to approval.

“One should make a distinction between punishment and approval,” Kustic said.

“If the state decides not to punish something, it doesn’t mean that it considers it good or decent."

ADNkronos (http://www.adnkronos.com/AKI/English/CultureAndMedia/?id=3.1.453932039)

FlaGator
05-27-2010, 12:03 PM
She said incest has been legal in France for over 200 years, but recent legalisation moves in Germany have failed.

That goes a long way to explaining the French people.

noonwitch
05-27-2010, 12:18 PM
That goes a long way to explaining the French people.


It's kind of a european thing. Just remember, much of Napoleon's army deserted him and many of the french soldiers decided to settle in the Balkans, Alps or some other point in between Russia and France, and intermingled with the people in those areas. So, there's probably still a way to blame the french for this.

Wei Wu Wei
05-27-2010, 02:45 PM
Prominent Catholic commentator Zivko Kustic said that the abolition of punishment was not necessarily tantamount to approval.

“One should make a distinction between punishment and approval,” Kustic said.

“If the state decides not to punish something, it doesn’t mean that it considers it good or decent."

This is something so many people in this country cannot seem to grasp.

noonwitch
05-27-2010, 02:56 PM
This is something so many people in this country cannot seem to grasp.


I haven't heard of too many prosecutions for consensual sibling incest, between adults, in this country.

We still have the right to shun them.

Wei Wu Wei
05-27-2010, 03:53 PM
I don't just mean on this issue. But the standpoint that people say "IF WE DON'T EABSOLUTELY PROHIBIT AND STOP X, THEN WE ARE ACTIVELY SUPPORTING AND CONDONING X!!"

I hear it all the time

Wei Wu Wei
05-27-2010, 03:54 PM
mostly on moral issues in this country

lacarnut
05-27-2010, 04:06 PM
I haven't heard of too many prosecutions for consensual sibling incest, between adults, in this country.

We still have the right to shun them.

They belong in a mental institution in my opinion.

CaughtintheMiddle1990
05-27-2010, 04:33 PM
They belong in a mental institution in my opinion.

Why? If their relationship is consensual and there is no harm done, why should they be placed in a mental institution?
While I do love the field of psychology, I feel we over diagnose people and mental institutions have the danger (I'm not saying they are used this way, but CAN BE due to their unique position) of being used as repositories for ''unwanted'' people. Adults who have consensual incest aren't harming anyone and are just acting out their sexuality in their own way, but were it up to people like you they would be remanded to a psychiatric hospital, essentially a prison, because you find it ''icky.''

FlaGator
05-27-2010, 04:40 PM
I don't just mean on this issue. But the standpoint that people say "IF WE DON'T EABSOLUTELY PROHIBIT AND STOP X, THEN WE ARE ACTIVELY SUPPORTING AND CONDONING X!!"

I hear it all the time

That's funny, I don't here that and I spend a lot of time in places that you would probably expect to hear it all the time.

FlaGator
05-27-2010, 04:42 PM
Why? If their relationship is consensual and there is no harm done, why should they be placed in a mental institution?
While I do love the field of psychology, I feel we over diagnose people and mental institutions have the danger (I'm not saying they are used this way, but CAN BE due to their unique position) of being used as repositories for ''unwanted'' people. Adults who have consensual incest aren't harming anyone and are just acting out their sexuality in their own way, but were it up to people like you they would be remanded to a psychiatric hospital, essentially a prison, because you find it ''icky.''

I hate to break this to you but some guy wanting to have sex with is mother or some girl wanting to have sex with her brother probably have deep, deep issues that need immediate attention.

CaughtintheMiddle1990
05-27-2010, 04:58 PM
They belong in a mental institution in my opinion.


I hate to break this to you but some guy wanting to have sex with is mother or some girl wanting to have sex with her brother probably have deep, deep issues that need immediate attention.

Sure, I'm not saying they shouldn't get counseling of some kind, or that that sort of relationship is in any way normal or sane, there are definite psychological problems at work there but to involuntarily place them in a mental hospital, perhaps for life,l seems a bit too much. If two consenting adults want to do that sort of stuff, it's whatever to me. I think it's gross but to each their own so long as they're not harming someone.

Sonnabend
05-27-2010, 05:01 PM
Why? If their relationship is consensual and there is no harm done, why should they be placed in a mental institution?

Ugh. Just when I didnt think you could sink any lower....:mad:


While I do love the field of psychology, I feel we over diagnose people and mental institutions have the danger (I'm not saying they are used this way, but CAN BE due to their unique position) of being used as repositories for ''unwanted'' people. Adults who have consensual incest aren't harming anyone

If you cant grasp whats wrong with this, you need urgent help.


and are just acting out their sexuality in their own way, but were it up to people like you they would be remanded to a psychiatric hospital, essentially a prison, because you find it ''icky.''

Try "repulsive" :eek:

CaughtintheMiddle1990
05-27-2010, 05:28 PM
Ugh. Just when I didnt think you could sink any lower....:mad:



If you cant grasp whats wrong with this, you need urgent help.



Try "repulsive" :eek:

I never said I don't see anything wrong with it--It is repulsive. However, my point is if they aren't harming anyone and it's consensual then they shouldn't be remanded to a mental hospital involuntarily. Should they seek counseling? Defintively. It's certainly by no means a normal relationship or mindset, but not one which merits involuntary psychiatric care.

fettpett
05-27-2010, 05:39 PM
Personally don't see the need for it to be Criminalized. It's in the vein of moral acts which can't be effectively legislated

THAT being said, it's immoral and disgusting.

Gingersnap
05-27-2010, 05:52 PM
I never said I don't see anything wrong with it--It is repulsive. However, my point is if they aren't harming anyone and it's consensual then they shouldn't be remanded to a mental hospital involuntarily. Should they seek counseling? Defintively. It's certainly by no means a normal relationship or mindset, but not one which merits involuntary psychiatric care.

Incest almost always involves an imbalance of power in the relationship. Unlike the many other retarded sexual relationships people have, you can't really break-up with your Dad/Mom/kid, etc. There are problematic psychological issues that involve trauma and emotional manipulation. Most incest begins when children are between early childhood and the middle of puberty. This is not exactly the right age for fundamental life decisions. Children who have endured incest (even if they appear to like it) have been changed and not in a good way. The problems and emotional obligations can persist into old age.

There is new sort of incest that involves siblings hooking up in adulthood. Although there's no emotional manipulation or force used, it doesn't seem to work out well for most of those who have gone down that road. When full siblings or parent/child couples have children, there are obvious problems with higher rates of genetic issues.

Even if no offspring are involved, the rest of the entire family certainly is so saying that "no one is hurt" would be a pretty cold statement.

CueSi
05-27-2010, 07:08 PM
There is a reason why we have a natural repulsion to our close relatives. Bleh.

Incest ain't wincest.


~QC

Rockntractor
05-27-2010, 07:24 PM
Why? If their relationship is consensual and there is no harm done, why should they be placed in a mental institution?
While I do love the field of psychology, I feel we over diagnose people and mental institutions have the danger (I'm not saying they are used this way, but CAN BE due to their unique position) of being used as repositories for ''unwanted'' people. Adults who have consensual incest aren't harming anyone and are just acting out their sexuality in their own way, but were it up to people like you they would be remanded to a psychiatric hospital, essentially a prison, because you find it ''icky.''
Is Wilbur your father?:confused::rolleyes:

AmPat
05-28-2010, 11:20 AM
That's funny, I don't here that and I spend a lot of time in places that you would probably expect to hear it all the time.

Another strawman. The funny thing is his obvious anger over his strawman. Look at those CAPS! I can almost see him stamping his feet.

noonwitch
06-01-2010, 09:21 AM
There is a reason why we have a natural repulsion to our close relatives. Bleh.

Incest ain't wincest.


~QC



Incest ain't wincest. I love it. If they ever make me a CPS trainer, I'll remember that one!

CueSi
06-01-2010, 09:23 AM
Incest ain't wincest. I love it. If they ever make me a CPS trainer, I'll remember that one!

You're welcome. One of my friends is a social worker in Utah. He'll prolly get to use it more than you. . . :p

~QC

wilbur
06-01-2010, 03:11 PM
If what Ginger says is true, I don't see a problem with a blanket ban on incest. In those rare cases where there is no abusive relationship though, I don't think the state has any interest in breaking them up, or convicting them.

Sonnabend
06-02-2010, 06:58 AM
Incest is abuse.

Full stop.

FlaGator
06-02-2010, 08:21 AM
How do you feel about this, then?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incest_in_the_Bible

The Bible condemns incest (Leviticus 18:6-18), it just states that it happened.

FlaGator
06-02-2010, 08:26 AM
If what Ginger says is true, I don't see a problem with a blanket ban on incest. In those rare cases where there is no abusive relationship though, I don't think the state has any interest in breaking them up, or convicting them.

Hmmm... slippery slope

wilbur
06-02-2010, 10:35 AM
Incest is abuse.

Full stop.

No, not really, not in all cases.

For example, I don't see how you could argue that there has been abuse in cases like these: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6424937.stm

I'm not sure how common situations like that one are, but they do seem to crop up in the news now and again, especially when they are going to go to trial.

Most cases like this are similar, in that the siblings or relatives who are in an incestual relationship, didn't grow up together and only met later in life. Like everyone else, I find it "icky", but I don't think we have any good reasons to prosecute in cases like this - let them be.

Sonnabend
06-02-2010, 10:44 AM
No, not really, not in all cases.

For example, I don't see how you could argue that there has been abuse in cases like these: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6424937.stm

I'm not sure how common situations like that one are, but they do seem to crop up in the news now and again, especially when they are going to go to trial.

Most cases like this are similar, in that the siblings or relatives who are in an incestual relationship, didn't grow up together and only met later in life. Like everyone else, I find it "icky", but I don't think we have any good reasons to prosecute in cases like this - let them be.

You're beyond help.

wilbur
06-02-2010, 10:59 AM
You're beyond help.

Don't think I need any....

What do you suggest society does with/to these people? Spend our resources convicting them and locking them up?

FlaGator
06-02-2010, 11:02 AM
I think that Topper Harley summed this subject up nicely

"My father used to say that not playing to win is like sleeping with your sister. Sure she's a great piece of tail, with a blouse full of goodies, but... it's just illegal. Then you get into that whole inbred thing. Kids with no teeth who do nothing but play the banjo... eat apple sauce through a straw... pork farm animals."

Gingersnap
06-02-2010, 11:16 AM
No, not really, not in all cases.

For example, I don't see how you could argue that there has been abuse in cases like these: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6424937.stm

I'm not sure how common situations like that one are, but they do seem to crop up in the news now and again, especially when they are going to go to trial.

Most cases like this are similar, in that the siblings or relatives who are in an incestual relationship, didn't grow up together and only met later in life. Like everyone else, I find it "icky", but I don't think we have any good reasons to prosecute in cases like this - let them be.

They are uncommon compared to the frequency of father/daughter incest and older brother/younger sibling incest. Depending on whose data you like and what definition you use, the rates for abusive incest range from around 3 - 7%. That's many millions of children - much higher than the estimated prevalence of GSA couples.

The problem here is that incest victims are overwhelmingly forced into relationships that are emotionally traumatizing. This trauma persists for years and decades. Adult victims can be re-victimized by emotionally manipulative abusers. The relationship can appear "consensual" but it would be difficult to call it that outside of a technical definition. Worse yet, there is a distressing tendency for abusers to groom the children of their victims for generational abuse.

It's more important for the law to be useful to victims of incest than it is for the law to make exceptions for very small numbers of the GSA people. After all, GSA couples can easily live together and they can even have biological children - it's not like international law enforcement is beating the bushes for half-sibling households.

Sonnabend
06-02-2010, 07:38 PM
What do you suggest society does with/to these people? Spend our resources convicting them and locking them up?

Yes.

Rockntractor
06-02-2010, 07:42 PM
Don't think I need any....

What do you suggest society does with/to these people? Spend our resources convicting them and locking them up?

Spay and neuter them and make sure they have all their vaccinations at the same time.

Jumpy
06-02-2010, 07:56 PM
No, not really, not in all cases.

For example, I don't see how you could argue that there has been abuse in cases like these: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6424937.stm

I'm not sure how common situations like that one are, but they do seem to crop up in the news now and again, especially when they are going to go to trial.

Most cases like this are similar, in that the siblings or relatives who are in an incestual relationship, didn't grow up together and only met later in life. Like everyone else, I find it "icky", but I don't think we have any good reasons to prosecute in cases like this - let them be.
I read the article, and the couple raise some persuasive points. Since they met as adults, and certainly knew they were at risk of passing on genetic issues, the responsible thing to do would have been to use birth control. But ewwww.... they should've just said no.

What to do with sperm banks, and anonymous donors and that potential can of worms??

Gingersnap
06-02-2010, 08:51 PM
I read the article, and the couple raise some persuasive points. Since they met as adults, and certainly knew they were at risk of passing on genetic issues, the responsible thing to do would have been to use birth control. But ewwww.... they should've just said no.

What to do with sperm banks, and anonymous donors and that potential can of worms??

While it's possible that anonymous sperm and egg donors might inadvertently lop a couple of branches off of the family tree, there is no possibility of emotional coercion or incestuous grooming happening because of donation.

I could make a couple of good points about polygamy but the potential harm resulting from seeing the polygamous subculture as "just as good" or "good for them" would outweigh any beneficial arguments I could make.