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View Full Version : Educated criticisms of Israel - If you desire anything more than an echo chamber



Wei Wu Wei
06-07-2010, 03:04 AM
Most of the time liberal commentary like that coming from msnbc or cnn disgust me. This is not that.

I know many people here are not interested in hearing positions they disagree with, preferring an echo chamber and ideological masturbation instead, so I'm expecting appropriate responses with that in mind.

However, I know others are interested in hearing what the other side has to say, with hearing other perspectives before they make up their mind and frankly the crap coming out of the mainstream media isn't worth listening to.

So, I present this video, a speech by renowned MIT professor Noam Chomsky on the topic of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

You may not agree with his conclusions, but if you have any interest in even hearing more than one perspective on this extremely important issue, you should hear this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdfzC5NNAew

Enjoy with an open mind. You don't have to agree, but give listening a shot. :)

I know this is a touchy topic, so hopefully we can be adult, civil, and mature, as everyone on this site including myself often are not.

Sonnabend
06-07-2010, 03:47 AM
Noam Chomsky

BWAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D:D

Who's next, Helen Thomas? Yassir Arafat?

GET REAL.

Wei Wu Wei
06-07-2010, 03:49 AM
I'm interested in hearing the opinions of those who took the time to listen to the speech, whether or not you agreed with it. Everyone else can go find a circle-jerk to make you feel better, find it elsewhere.

Bleda
06-07-2010, 04:30 AM
Nobody's going to watch an hour of Noam Chomsky. Just as I have no interest in watching those 1-hour conspiracy theory "documentaries" on Google Video.

Constitutionally Speaking
06-07-2010, 06:18 AM
Most of the time liberal commentary like that coming from msnbc or cnn disgust me. This is not that.

I know many people here are not interested in hearing positions they disagree with, preferring an echo chamber and ideological masturbation instead, so I'm expecting appropriate responses with that in mind.

However, I know others are interested in hearing what the other side has to say, with hearing other perspectives before they make up their mind and frankly the crap coming out of the mainstream media isn't worth listening to.

So, I present this video, a speech by renowned MIT professor Noam Chomsky on the topic of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

You may not agree with his conclusions, but if you have any interest in even hearing more than one perspective on this extremely important issue, you should hear this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdfzC5NNAew

Enjoy with an open mind. You don't have to agree, but give listening a shot. :)

I know this is a touchy topic, so hopefully we can be adult, civil, and mature, as everyone on this site including myself often are not.



Wei,

I will indeed listen to this, but at this time I cannot.

But for the record, I suggest you consider the source. Chomsky has no interest in the truth - he has used his immense linguistic talants to mislead people for decades now.

Amongst his purposeful lies or disgusting views:

1) America is WORSE than Nazi Germany - this is not a one time claim but a major theme of his.

2) He was a leading denier of the Genocide that occurred in Cambodia when we pulled out of Vietnam.

3) The chief sin of Stalinism in his eyes was not the murder of millions, but the fact that he had given socialism a bad name.


A lie, no matter how eloquently constructed, or well delivered is still a lie.

MrsSmith
06-07-2010, 08:18 AM
Noam Chomsky

BWAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Who's next, Helen Thomas? Yassir Arafat?

GET REAL.

:D:D:D

MrsSmith
06-07-2010, 08:28 AM
Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

Gen 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

Chomsky can say anything he wants, he doesn't have any authority

Sonnabend
06-07-2010, 08:37 AM
I'm interested in hearing the opinions of those who took the time to listen to the speech, whether or not you agreed with it. Everyone else can go find a circle-jerk to make you feel better, find it elsewhere.

I've read Chomsky's books, and listened to him before. He would be at home in Soviet Russia or North Korea.

As for circle jerks, I prefer someone who is at least HONEST in his analysis, and has more than a passing understanding of the truth. Chomsky is a Stalin apologist and a liar and a fool.

By the way, can I have that proof I asked for? Abouit "thousands of children dying"?

Still waiting.

wilbur
06-07-2010, 09:08 AM
I'm not a Chomsky-ite by any means and am definitely uncomfortable with the sort demagogic guru status that Chomsky seems to have achieved, even in fields outside his expertise, but this smells like BS:



1) America is WORSE than Nazi Germany - this is not a one time claim but a major theme of his.


This sounds more like somebody's, severely biased interpretation of Chomsky, rather than a view belonging to Chomsky.



2) He was a leading denier of the Genocide that occurred in Cambodia when we pulled out of Vietnam.


From what I understand, he didn't deny that, but showed scepticism towards the severity of the situations as reported by the press.



3) The chief sin of Stalinism in his eyes was not the murder of millions, but the fact that he had given socialism a bad name.


I've seen this quote bandied around a lot - but was it actually said by Chomsky, or are we just looking at yet another interpretation of his view through the right extremist filter?

There are a few intellectuals out there that just get criminally demonized by the right. Chomsky is one... another who might have even have it worse is Peter Singer. There's lots to criticize about both of them, but quite frankly, most right wing criticisms of them are straight-up lies.

wilbur
06-07-2010, 09:09 AM
I've read Chomsky's books, and listened to him before. He would be at home in Soviet Russia or North Korea.


Haha, LOL!

Sonna, read a book? A Chomsky book no less? Calling that out for the obvious lie that it is...

Sonnabend
06-07-2010, 09:19 AM
Haha, LOL!

Sonna, read a book? A Chomsky book no less? Calling that out for the obvious lie that it is...

:rolleyes:

MrsSmith
06-07-2010, 10:06 AM
Chomsky is a very outspoken apologist for those governments that freely murder innocents, while opposing those governments that attempt to reduce innocent casualties as far as possible...which makes him the perfect spokesperson for our most liberal posters, of course. After all, humans are the only wrong with this planet.

NJCardFan
06-07-2010, 11:20 AM
From what I understand, he didn't deny that, but showed scepticism towards the severity of the situations as reported by the press.

Um, that's called denial, stupid.

noonwitch
06-07-2010, 02:39 PM
I've never read a book by Chomsky, and I'm not going to spend an hour watching him speak on Youtube.

I try to be neutral on the Israel/Palestinean conflicts. I support both sides' right to exsist in the Middle East. I wish they would stop killing each other. But there comes a time when I have to look at the tactics. The Palestineans use terroristic techniques. The Israelis don't load their own children up with bombs and blow them up in Palestinean shopping malls. That's kind of the bottom line for me.

Jfor
06-07-2010, 03:07 PM
I've never read a book by Chomsky, and I'm not going to spend an hour watching him speak on Youtube.

I try to be neutral on the Israel/Palestinean conflicts. I support both sides' right to exsist in the Middle East. I wish they would stop killing each other. But there comes a time when I have to look at the tactics. The Palestineans use terroristic techniques. The Israelis don't load their own children up with bombs and blow them up in Palestinean shopping malls. That's kind of the bottom line for me.

If the "Palestinians" would stop, there would be peace. Simple as that. they don't want peace. They want Israel and the Jews dead.

wilbur
06-07-2010, 03:16 PM
Chomsky is a very outspoken apologist for those governments that freely murder innocents...

Chomsky would probably regard the US as such a government (and of course, Israel). I might not agree completely, but the cases for those arguments are strong enough that we should feel pretty uncomfortable about them.

noonwitch
06-07-2010, 03:31 PM
If the "Palestinians" would stop, there would be peace. Simple as that. they don't want peace. They want Israel and the Jews dead.



You have a point, but among the radical palestineans, there are a lot of innocents. All palestineans are considered second-class citizens by Israel, including those who are not involved in terrorism-even palestinean jews and christians. This type of treatment by the Israelis feeds the fire of the radicals, and it gives the jews of palestinean descent the ability to justifiably accuse the Israelis of being racist against those who don't have any european ancestry.

What I don't like about the flotillas is that the people behind them are setting the Israelis up, and they aren't necessarily palestineans. I'm a liberal, but I'm one who thinks about the well-being of the people I'm advocating for. When dumb-asses like Ayers, Dohrn, the republic of Ireland, EU, etc., get involved, they want to make a statement about how brutal Israel is, and they didn't really think about the health and welfare of the people on the boat. I don't see them risking their own asses on the flotillas.

Jfor
06-07-2010, 03:59 PM
You have a point, but among the radical palestineans, there are a lot of innocents. All palestineans are considered second-class citizens by Israel, including those who are not involved in terrorism-even palestinean jews and christians. This type of treatment by the Israelis feeds the fire of the radicals, and it gives the jews of palestinean descent the ability to justifiably accuse the Israelis of being racist against those who don't have any european ancestry.

What I don't like about the flotillas is that the people behind them are setting the Israelis up, and they aren't necessarily palestineans. I'm a liberal, but I'm one who thinks about the well-being of the people I'm advocating for. When dumb-asses like Ayers, Dohrn, the republic of Ireland, EU, etc., get involved, they want to make a statement about how brutal Israel is, and they didn't really think about the health and welfare of the people on the boat. I don't see them risking their own asses on the flotillas.

The "Palestinians" are allowing this to happen to themselves so I have no pity for them. Just as I have no pity for folks on welfare.

Wei Wu Wei
06-07-2010, 04:23 PM
I've never read a book by Chomsky, and I'm not going to spend an hour watching him speak on Youtube.

I try to be neutral on the Israel/Palestinean conflicts. I support both sides' right to exsist in the Middle East. I wish they would stop killing each other. But there comes a time when I have to look at the tactics. The Palestineans use terroristic techniques. The Israelis don't load their own children up with bombs and blow them up in Palestinean shopping malls. That's kind of the bottom line for me.

You ever spend an hour watching television? How about an hour reading some light fiction? How about an hour online?

What's that compared to an hour of watching a highly renown and controversial scholar talking about one of the most important issues of our time?

NJCardFan
06-07-2010, 04:24 PM
You ever spend an hour watching television? How about an hour reading some light fiction? How about an hour online?

What's that compared to an hour of watching a highly renown and controversial scholar talking about one of the most important issues of our time?
OK. Let me know when Krauthammer does it and I'll watch.

Wei Wu Wei
06-07-2010, 04:34 PM
OK. Let me know when Krauthammer does it and I'll watch.

Does what? Give a full talk on the issue? I'd love to watch that, if you find one please post it here.

PoliCon
06-07-2010, 04:41 PM
Only FUCKTARDS hold out Chumpsky as being credible on any issue beyond linguistics.

noonwitch
06-07-2010, 04:44 PM
You ever spend an hour watching television? How about an hour reading some light fiction? How about an hour online?

What's that compared to an hour of watching a highly renown and controversial scholar talking about one of the most important issues of our time?


I've read plenty of other articles and books by people on both sides. I watch the news. I'm neutral, for the most part, on the Israel/Palestinean issue. That means I am as sick of the palestineans' terroristic methods and I am sick of the Israelis' starve them out/demolish their families' homes methods. But the radical palestineans strap bombs on their own children and send them out to kill at civilian targets. To me, that crosses the line and there's not much anyone can say to justify it. They not only kill their enemies, they kill their own children in the process. That's insanity at the highest levels. They can't even claim that they are fighting to make a better world for their children BECAUSE THEY ARE KILLING THEIR OWN CHILDREN IN THE PROCESS!

Personally, I think after WWII, we should have taken in all the holocaust survivors who wanted to leave Europe. But we didn't, and now we have the nation of Israel. It's too late for that now. I think that the Palestinean people should have the standing of Israeli citizens, but I don't support a separate state for the Palestineans, anymore than I support the confederacy. They lost their territory in a war, just like the confederacy did in 1865.


My whole world is not going to stop because Noam Chomsky has weighed in with his opinion on the matter.

Zathras
06-07-2010, 05:02 PM
You ever spend an hour watching television? How about an hour reading some light fiction? How about an hour online?

What's that compared to an hour of watching a highly renown and controversial scholar talking about one of the most important issues of our time?

Because watching that hour of television, reading that light fiction or being on line has more substance than that America hating ass Chumpski.

malloc
06-07-2010, 05:09 PM
I normally try to stay out of this area of debate, because I don't think you can pick any side and be the absolutely right. From the creation of Palestine, out of the conquered Ottoman Empire by the British, through the Palestinian Mandate, the partition, and the Israeli War for Independence, a lot of stupid has gone into this region from outsiders throughout history. Most of that stupid hasn't come from Jewish refugees who settled there, or the Palestinians who lived there, most of the stupid has come from Britain, the League of Nations, and the U.N. who created this situation in the first place. Not to mention the original migration of Jews to Palestine due to nothing more than European and Russian antisemitism. One thing history does demonstrate is that the wrongness done between 1917 and 1948 was not the fault of the Jews, and to a great extent, not the fault of the Palestinians. They were like two kids on the playground goaded into a fight by a circle of instigators disguised as do-gooders. The stupid of today that comes from these two groups is because they have been pushed into the same geographical location by outside powers without any thought to the future outcome.

Through the 20/20 of hindsight, we can see these actions of Britain, the U.N. and the LoN as bad choices, but history is over and done with and cannot be changed. The rest of the world, in my opinion should just back off and let Israel and Palestine work out their difference the best way they can, even if it means violence. The whole world telling each side what to do is obviously not settling anything.

Zafod
06-07-2010, 07:25 PM
worst







































thread























































ever.......

Constitutionally Speaking
06-07-2010, 07:29 PM
For Wilbur: I was being KIND to Chomsky in my previous post. Here are some quotes with the sources so you can look them up yourself. In addition, many of these are from my own collection of Chomsky's books and it might be difficult to find a link - but I will endeavor to provide an link where possible. Where it is not possible, I will cite it the old fashioned way - by name and page of the book.

“in comparison to the conditions imposed by US tyranny and violence, East Europe
under Russian rule was practically a paradise."

This is from a letter Chomsky wrote that was re-published in Alexader Cockburn's "The Golden Age is in Us" and can be found beginning on page 149.

http://books.google.com/books?id=PJfUHb7mB9UC&dq=The+Golden+Age+Is+In+Us&printsec=frontcover&source=in&hl=en&ei=lHsNTPLgFMHknAfbzPzXAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=12&ved=0CF4Q6AEwCw#v=onepage&q&f=false

Referring to the 9-11 attacks and his belief that they weren't as bad as Clinton's attack on the "aspirin" factories in the Sudan.

“The terrorist attacks were major atrocities. In scale they may not reach the level of many others, for example, Clinton’s bombing of the Sudan with no credible pretext, destroying half its pharmaceutical supplies and killing unknown numbers of people (no one knows, because the US blocked an inquiry at the UN and no one cares to pursue it"

http://www.nodo50.org/csca/agenda2001/ny_11-09-01/chomski-eng.html

Here is a bit on his dishonesty in Indochina - and I will admit that I have not reviewed everything here, but have reviewed quite a bit and I am confident the rest passes muster as well.

Chomsky Denies a Genocide

http://www.paulbogdanor.com/chomsky/cataclysm.html

If you like Wilbur, I can go on - but quite frankly, he makes me ill.

MrsSmith
06-07-2010, 08:50 PM
Chomsky would probably regard the US as such a government (and of course, Israel). I might not agree completely, but the cases for those arguments are strong enough that we should feel pretty uncomfortable about them.Exactly as I said, Chomsky apologizes for those that deliberately target civilians while criticizing those that do not. He is an absolute moron, and if you agree with his take on these things, I guess you are, also.

Zeus
06-07-2010, 09:40 PM
You have a point, but among the radical palestineans, there are a lot of innocents. All palestineans are considered second-class citizens by Israel, including those who are not involved in terrorism-even palestinean jews and christians. This type of treatment by the Israelis feeds the fire of the radicals, and it gives the jews of palestinean descent the ability to justifiably accuse the Israelis of being racist against those who don't have any european ancestry.

What I don't like about the flotillas is that the people behind them are setting the Israelis up, and they aren't necessarily palestineans. I'm a liberal, but I'm one who thinks about the well-being of the people I'm advocating for. When dumb-asses like Ayers, Dohrn, the republic of Ireland, EU, etc., get involved, they want to make a statement about how brutal Israel is, and they didn't really think about the health and welfare of the people on the boat. I don't see them risking their own asses on the flotillas.

You do realize that there are palestinian muslems in the Israeli Knesset don't you. That makes the highlighted statement a blatant falsehood. Also lays bare the lie about Israeli aparthied treatment of the Pals.



Arabs in Israel have equal rights under the law
Arabs in Israel can vote for whoever they want
Arabs in Israel can worship freely
Arabs in Israel are entitled to the full same state education as all other Israelis
Arabs are members of the Israeli parliament and ministers in the governmentIsraeli society gives more opportunity to Arabs than do Arab states to their own citizens. Israeli Arabs and Muslims have the right to vote and to hold public office, like every other Israeli citizen. Nearly one-10th of the Knesset, Israel's parliament, is Arab; there is a mosque in the Knesset building for those who are Muslim. One of the justices of Israel's Supreme Court is an Arab Muslim; so is a minister in the Israeli cabinet. Arabs are active in Israeli commerce, media, education, and law

http://www.middle-east-info.org/gateway/arabsinisrael/index.htm

Zathras
06-07-2010, 10:51 PM
worst


thread


ever.......

Don't worry, I'm sure that Wee Wee's next thread will exceed this ones amount of stupidity. He can't help it, he's a liberal.

Sonnabend
06-07-2010, 11:16 PM
You do realize that there are palestinian muslems in the Israeli Knesset don't you. That makes the highlighted statement a blatant falsehood. Also lays bare the lie about Israeli aparthied treatment of the Pals.

As has been pointed out to him.

TWICE.

MrsSmith
06-07-2010, 11:33 PM
No right of return (http://www.worldmag.com/articles/15727)

No one talks about the Jews forced out of Arab lands

Sami Jajouhana is the keeper of Nahum's tomb. The last of the Jews to leave al-Qosh in 1948 handed him the keys to the synagogue and a leather ledger, which he has used to this day to record visitors who come to peek at the site where they say the ancient prophet of Nineveh is buried.

When I met Jajouhana almost a year ago on travels through Iraq's Nineveh province, he asked me to sign the ledger as he produced a key to open the padlock of the door into the synagogue. Most of the recent visitors, I noticed, have been U.S. soldiers. They are Jewish, said Jajouhana, and traveled from Camp Freedom, their base outside Mosul, about 25 miles south... (requires subscription)


Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim lands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_lands)

...
Scope of expulsion

It is estimated that 800,000 to 1,000,000 Jews were either forced from their homes or left the Arab countries from 1948 until the early 1970s; 260,000 reached Israel between 19481951, and 600,000 by 1972.[1][2][3] The Jews of Egypt and Libya were expelled while those of Iraq, Yemen, Syria, Lebanon and North Africa left as a result of physical and political insecurity. Almost all were forced to abandon their property.[2] By 2002, these Jews and their descendants constituted about 40% of Israel's population.[3] One of the main representative bodies of this group, the World Organization of Jews from Arab Countries, (WOJAC) estimates that Jewish property abandoned in Arab countries would be valued today at more than $300 billion[4][5] and Jewish-owned real-estate left behind in Arab lands at 100,000 square kilometers (four times the size of the state of Israel).[1][5] The organization asserts that a major cause of the Jewish exodus was a deliberate policy decision taken by the Arab League.
...


Just wondering if this has been considered by our liberal posters? Perhaps the Arab lands now containing the formerly Jewish-owned property should donate some of that for those poor Palestinians?

Rockntractor
06-07-2010, 11:45 PM
Just wondering if this has been considered by our liberal posters? Perhaps the Arab lands now containing the formerly Jewish-owned property should donate some of that for those poor Palestinians?

That is an excellent post, also the Jews purchased their land in the early part of this century. They didn't just squat on it!

Wei Wu Wei
06-08-2010, 02:58 PM
Lots of criticism, anger, denial, arguing, and pseudopoints and yet not a single poster has actually watched the video in question. I hoped for better but didn't expect it.

Wei Wu Wei
06-08-2010, 03:19 PM
Let me review some books I haven't read and rate some movies I haven't seen while I'm at it.

noonwitch
06-08-2010, 03:34 PM
You do realize that there are palestinian muslems in the Israeli Knesset don't you. That makes the highlighted statement a blatant falsehood. Also lays bare the lie about Israeli aparthied treatment of the Pals.




No, I didn't realize that. I appreciate your correction.

Still, my main problem with the Palestineans is their use of terroristic tactics and their willingness to use their children as bombs.

Wei Wu Wei
06-08-2010, 03:49 PM
No, I didn't realize that. I appreciate your correction.

Still, my main problem with the Palestineans is their use of terroristic tactics and their willingness to use their children as bombs.

In another thread I posted a movie focusing on the child Palestinians, and yes it is unfortunate. The movie shows how children are recruited at a young age to fight for the cause (kill the evil Jews), and how many don't make it into adulthood because of it. It also shows the constant fear and suffering these children live in, and the conditions that create such terrible ideologies that result in child-martyrs.

It's a bit heartbreaking, but I think it's very important for us to see, being that we live in such a cushy lifestyle it's easy to sit back and form opinions with minimal exposure.

PoliCon
06-08-2010, 03:58 PM
In another thread I posted a movie focusing on the child Palestinians, and yes it is unfortunate. The movie shows how children are recruited at a young age to fight for the cause (kill the evil Jews), and how many don't make it into adulthood because of it. It also shows the constant fear and suffering these children live in, and the conditions that create such terrible ideologies that result in child-martyrs.

It's a bit heartbreaking, but I think it's very important for us to see, being that we live in such a cushy lifestyle it's easy to sit back and form opinions with minimal exposure.

and of course in your fucked up mind that makes it Israels fault. :rolleyes:

Wei Wu Wei
06-08-2010, 04:06 PM
and of course in your fucked up mind that makes it Israels fault. :rolleyes:

Try watching the film before you comment on it.

Zathras
06-08-2010, 04:41 PM
Lots of criticism, anger, denial, arguing, and pseudopoints and yet not a single poster has actually watched the video in question. I hoped for better but didn't expect it.

Didn't have to watch it Wee Wee. We've all heard Chumpski's views on Israel well before you showed up here. No need to watch the same garbage twice. We already know how it goes.

BadCat
06-08-2010, 06:21 PM
Noam Chomsky. Geez, weewee weewee, you really are a fucktard.

BadCat
06-08-2010, 06:22 PM
Didn't have to watch it Wee Wee. We've all heard Chumpski's views on Israel well before you showed up here. No need to watch the same garbage twice. We already know how it goes.

Much like we don't need to read weewee weewee's posts for the same reasons.

Sonnabend
06-08-2010, 06:50 PM
Let me review some books I haven't read and rate some movies I haven't seen while I'm at it.

I am not watching this drivel for the same reason I wont eat rat shit.

I know what it is, I know what it smells like, I know where it came from, and I know it's shit.

MrsSmith
06-08-2010, 07:24 PM
Lots of criticism, anger, denial, arguing, and pseudopoints and yet not a single poster has actually watched the video in question. I hoped for better but didn't expect it.


Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim lands

...
Scope of expulsion

It is estimated that 800,000 to 1,000,000 Jews were either forced from their homes or left the Arab countries from 1948 until the early 1970s; 260,000 reached Israel between 19481951, and 600,000 by 1972.[1][2][3] The Jews of Egypt and Libya were expelled while those of Iraq, Yemen, Syria, Lebanon and North Africa left as a result of physical and political insecurity. Almost all were forced to abandon their property.[2] By 2002, these Jews and their descendants constituted about 40% of Israel's population.[3] One of the main representative bodies of this group, the World Organization of Jews from Arab Countries, (WOJAC) estimates that Jewish property abandoned in Arab countries would be valued today at more than $300 billion[4][5] and Jewish-owned real-estate left behind in Arab lands at 100,000 square kilometers (four times the size of the state of Israel).[1][5] The organization asserts that a major cause of the Jewish exodus was a deliberate policy decision taken by the Arab League.

I'm happy to see that you're capable of considering both sides of a dispute...




:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Constitutionally Speaking
06-09-2010, 06:05 AM
Lots of criticism, anger, denial, arguing, and pseudopoints and yet not a single poster has actually watched the video in question. I hoped for better but didn't expect it.


I'm about halfway through it. Have to listen to it in parts. So far, though, there is nothing new here. It is typical Chomsky. Lot's of half truths, full out lies and one sided points that are taken out of context.

Wei Wu Wei
06-09-2010, 11:19 AM
I'm about halfway through it. Have to listen to it in parts. So far, though, there is nothing new here. It is typical Chomsky. Lot's of half truths, full out lies and one sided points that are taken out of context.

Feel free to point out where he's wrong. I know Chomsky is a bit controversial so I was expecting (hopefully) to get some criticism of the points he made.

I'm glad at least someone is at least listening to it rather than just saying "CHOMSKY STUPID". Address the issues, not the person.

Jfor
06-09-2010, 11:21 AM
Feel free to point out where he's wrong. I know Chomsky is a bit controversial so I was expecting (hopefully) to get some criticism of the points he made.

I'm glad at least someone is at least listening to it rather than just saying "CHOMSKY STUPID". Address the issues, not the person.

Why address socialism? It is retarded, just like you.

Wei Wu Wei
06-09-2010, 11:47 AM
Why address socialism? It is retarded, just like you.

Speaking about something you have no knowledge of, or just one perspective of, is "retarded" as you say.

Jfor
06-09-2010, 12:45 PM
Speaking about something you have no knowledge of, or just one perspective of, is "retarded" as you say.

Why should I watch something that a socialist thinks? Tell me that. You come on here espousing your socialist beliefs trying to get me to believe that socialism is the cure for the country. Yet in every single instance where socialism was tried, it failed and it failed miserably. So no, I will not watch what you think every good little person should watch. And yes, you are retarded.

PoliCon
06-09-2010, 01:52 PM
Feel free to point out where he's wrong. I know Chomsky is a bit controversial so I was expecting (hopefully) to get some criticism of the points he made.

I'm glad at least someone is at least listening to it rather than just saying "CHOMSKY STUPID". Address the issues, not the person.

You mean like how you address the evidence that is given to you wee wee? Hypocrite much? :rolleyes:

Wei Wu Wei
06-09-2010, 02:35 PM
You mean like how you address the evidence that is given to you wee wee? Hypocrite much? :rolleyes:

You mean the evidence that I actually read? That evidence? Something like that.

Wei Wu Wei
06-09-2010, 02:39 PM
Why should I watch something that a socialist thinks? Tell me that.

Because if you don't listen to opposing viewpoints you are not interested in growth, discussion, education, or anything else besides ideological masturbation.

If you don't criticize yourself, or listen openly to people who disagree with you, you are an intellectual child.

You don't have to agree, you don't have to accept the conclusions, you are free to present counter-evidence and counter-arguments, but to simply ignore those who challenge your ideology is pitiful. It means you live in a bubble, and echo chamber, and such behavior is driven from fear.

PoliCon
06-09-2010, 02:45 PM
You mean the evidence that I actually read? That evidence? Something like that.

Clearly you do not read - at least not anything that does not spew talking points at you - and certainly not the posts of other people on this message board. :rolleyes:

http://www.stevefu.net/hostedstuff/mine/Caturday/fucktard.JPG

Jfor
06-09-2010, 02:45 PM
Because if you don't listen to opposing viewpoints you are not interested in growth, discussion, education, or anything else besides ideological masturbation.

If you don't criticize yourself, or listen openly to people who disagree with you, you are an intellectual child.

You don't have to agree, you don't have to accept the conclusions, you are free to present counter-evidence and counter-arguments, but to simply ignore those who challenge your ideology is pitiful. It means you live in a bubble, and echo chamber, and such behavior is driven from fear.

Again, why should I listen to the merits of socialism? Your answer is not relevant. I know what is right and what is wrong.

Wei Wu Wei
06-09-2010, 02:54 PM
Again, why should I listen to the merits of socialism? Your answer is not relevant. I know what is right and what is wrong.

If you believe you have it all figured out and you can't be wrong and that people who disagree are purely evil/lying/stupid/irrelevant, then by all means go back to watching Glenn Beck every day (like I do too)

This video is not about the merits of socialism, if you had bothered to watch it, you would see that, but I guess you have the whole world figured out, you sir are the One, you hold the Truth, the world is black and white, and you are the master of the binary.

Never listen to anything you disagree with, never. Surround yourself in what you know, this is the key. Question things? NEVER. Listen to others? NEVER.

I wish I knew everything like you, please tell me how you figured out the Truth, so that I may someday I can never be confused, surprised, or upset.

Jfor
06-09-2010, 03:23 PM
If you believe you have it all figured out and you can't be wrong and that people who disagree are purely evil/lying/stupid/irrelevant, then by all means go back to watching Glenn Beck every day (like I do too)

This video is not about the merits of socialism, if you had bothered to watch it, you would see that, but I guess you have the whole world figured out, you sir are the One, you hold the Truth, the world is black and white, and you are the master of the binary.

Never listen to anything you disagree with, never. Surround yourself in what you know, this is the key. Question things? NEVER. Listen to others? NEVER.

I wish I knew everything like you, please tell me how you figured out the Truth, so that I may someday I can never be confused, surprised, or upset.

The problem with you is, you don't think there are good guys and bad guys. you don't think there is good vs evil. You think everything is relative. I know what is right and I know what is wrong. I don't need you preaching to me that Israel is evil and the Palestinians are the poor unfortunates. Guess what, all this shit would end in Israel if the Palestinians would quit trying to eradicate Israel. it really is that simple. Get it yet dipshit?

PoliCon
06-09-2010, 03:33 PM
The problem with you is, you don't think there are good guys and bad guys. you don't think there is good vs evil. You think everything is relative. I know what is right and I know what is wrong. I don't need you preaching to me that Israel is evil and the Palestinians are the poor unfortunates. Guess what, all this shit would end in Israel if the Palestinians would quit trying to eradicate Israel. it really is that simple. Get it yet dipshit?

he refuses to concede any point or any evidence that does not fit his narrative. He is a progressive. The narrative is more important than facts in their world view. :rolleyes:

Jfor
06-09-2010, 03:40 PM
he refuses to concede any point or any evidence that does not fit his narrative. He is a progressive. The narrative is more important than facts in their world view. :rolleyes:

Yep... all about feelings with this one.

Lager
06-09-2010, 04:58 PM
Because if you don't listen to opposing viewpoints you are not interested in growth, discussion, education, or anything else besides ideological masturbation.

If you don't criticize yourself, or listen openly to people who disagree with you, you are an intellectual child.

You don't have to agree, you don't have to accept the conclusions, you are free to present counter-evidence and counter-arguments, but to simply ignore those who challenge your ideology is pitiful. It means you live in a bubble, and echo chamber, and such behavior is driven from fear.

You seem to automatically assume that people on this site haven't heard opposing viewpoints. You tend to make that assumption on other issues as well. What makes you think posters here haven't weighed both sides before drawing their conclusions?

PoliCon
06-09-2010, 05:01 PM
You seem to automatically assume that people on this site haven't heard opposing viewpoints. You tend to make that assumption on other issues as well. What makes you think posters here haven't weighed both sides before drawing their conclusions?

clearly he believes that if we did - we'd take the PROPER position of agreeing with him and demonizing Israel. :rolleyes:

Constitutionally Speaking
06-09-2010, 06:07 PM
Feel free to point out where he's wrong. I know Chomsky is a bit controversial so I was expecting (hopefully) to get some criticism of the points he made.

I'm glad at least someone is at least listening to it rather than just saying "CHOMSKY STUPID". Address the issues, not the person.



One of his points that South Africa was responsible for a million and a half (that is from memory - so I may have the number incorrect.) deaths in the surrounding countries. Shortly after that he accused Reagan of Genocide in Central America.

wilbur
06-09-2010, 06:28 PM
You seem to automatically assume that people on this site haven't heard opposing viewpoints. You tend to make that assumption on other issues as well. What makes you think posters here haven't weighed both sides before drawing their conclusions?

In all fairness, its pretty plain as day (with a few exceptions). The biggest telling point is how so few can actually articulate opposing viewpoints *accurately*.

Jfor
06-09-2010, 06:31 PM
In all fairness, its pretty plain as day (with a few exceptions). The biggest telling point is how so few can actually articulate opposing viewpoints *accurately*.

We just the shit you post for just that, shit. So there is no reason to to try and sway you libtards.

JB
06-09-2010, 06:40 PM
...<Waiting for the thread where he tells us Michael Moore's next movie is a "must see">.

Seriously, who is this tool?

MrsSmith
06-09-2010, 06:51 PM
Because if you don't listen to opposing viewpoints you are not interested in growth, discussion, education, or anything else besides ideological masturbation.

If you don't criticize yourself, or listen openly to people who disagree with you, you are an intellectual child.

You don't have to agree, you don't have to accept the conclusions, you are free to present counter-evidence and counter-arguments, but to simply ignore those who challenge your ideology is pitiful. It means you live in a bubble, and echo chamber, and such behavior is driven from fear.


I'm happy to see that you're capable of considering both sides of a dispute...




:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:


Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim lands

...
Scope of expulsion

It is estimated that 800,000 to 1,000,000 Jews were either forced from their homes or left the Arab countries from 1948 until the early 1970s; 260,000 reached Israel between 19481951, and 600,000 by 1972.[1][2][3] The Jews of Egypt and Libya were expelled while those of Iraq, Yemen, Syria, Lebanon and North Africa left as a result of physical and political insecurity. Almost all were forced to abandon their property.[2] By 2002, these Jews and their descendants constituted about 40% of Israel's population.[3] One of the main representative bodies of this group, the World Organization of Jews from Arab Countries, (WOJAC) estimates that Jewish property abandoned in Arab countries would be valued today at more than $300 billion[4][5] and Jewish-owned real-estate left behind in Arab lands at 100,000 square kilometers (four times the size of the state of Israel).[1][5] The organization asserts that a major cause of the Jewish exodus was a deliberate policy decision taken by the Arab League.

Constitutionally Speaking
06-09-2010, 09:14 PM
He denies that Mandela's organization was a terrorist group. This is the same group that popularized the barbaric practice they called "necklacing" - which consisted of placing a tire around a person's neck, dousing them with gasoline and setting them on fire - alive.

Constitutionally Speaking
06-09-2010, 10:07 PM
He tries to make it appear as if he was in mortal danger on his speeches in the past. That is a joke.

I cannot find any real incidents of anyone even protesting him during the time period he referenced (or any time period actually). There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever to support his claim. NONE. No police reports, no articles NOTHING. I cannot say definitively that he is lying, but there is no evidence that he is telling the truth. Compare this to today's right wing speakers - who really ARE threatened and disrupted when they speak.

Constitutionally Speaking
06-09-2010, 10:13 PM
He says Israel is violating the Geneva conventions by actions in their OWN country. The Geneva conventions do not cover domestic policy. Of course he says this is occurring in "occupied territory" which is nothing but a propaganda line.

Sonnabend
06-09-2010, 10:13 PM
In all fairness, its pretty plain as day (with a few exceptions). The biggest telling point is how so few can actually articulate opposing viewpoints *accurately*.

Flannery did a good job of it....mind you, he cooked his own goose :D:D:D