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megimoo
06-04-2008, 06:55 PM
Outcry after French court rules on virginity


PARIS - The bride said she was a virgin. When her new husband discovered that was a lie, he went to court to annul the marriage—and a French judge agreed.

The ruling ending the Muslim couple's union has stunned France and raised concerns the country's much-cherished secular values are losing ground to religious traditions from its fast-growing immigrant communities.

The decision also exposed the silent shame borne by some Muslim women who transgress long-held religious dictates demanding proof of virginity on the wedding night.

In its ruling, the court concluded the woman had misrepresented herself as a virgin and that, in this particular marriage, virginity was a prerequisite.

But in treating the case as a breach of contract, the ruling was decried by critics who said it undermined decades of progress in women's rights. Marriage, they said, was reduced to the status of a commercial transaction in which women could be discarded by husbands claiming to have discovered hidden defects in them.

The court decision "is a real fatwa against the emancipation and liberty of women. We are returning to the past," said Urban Affairs Minister Fadela Amara, the daughter of immigrants from Muslim North Africa, using the Arabic term for a religious decree.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D913EOHO0&show_article=1

LibraryLady
06-04-2008, 07:21 PM
The Catholic Church considers it grounds for an annulment.

Goldwater
06-04-2008, 07:53 PM
The Catholic Church considers it grounds for an annulment.

Yup, this isn't an Islam thing, it's a religion thing. Marriage is in some kind of weird hybrid world between law and culture, no idea where it is.

Vepr
06-04-2008, 07:58 PM
Did they stone her to save her family from disgrace afterwards?

Jumpy
06-04-2008, 08:06 PM
Did they stone her to save her family from disgrace afterwards?

Thankfully she is in France! Otherwise, he wouldve just said, I divorce you I divorce you I divorce you, and she might be dead by now.

I don't think the annulment was a bad thing. It was a breach of contract.

Bubba Dawg
06-04-2008, 08:19 PM
When I was younger I went out on a date with a girl. Things got hot and heavy. At the moment of entry I suddenly stopped and went, My God, if I knew you were a virgin, I would have been more gentle.

To which she replied If I knew that you were in such a fuckin' hurry, i would have already taken off my panty hose.

Old joke, but still funny.

megimoo
06-04-2008, 09:13 PM
The Catholic Church considers it grounds for an annulment.Old testament omly, not the mackerel snappers !

Deuteronomy 22:13-19 Divorce prohibited if the a husband accuses the wife of not being a virgin: "If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her, And give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate: And the damsel's father shall say unto the elders, I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her; And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. And the elders of that city shall take that man and chastise him; And they shall amerce him in an hundred shekels of silver, and give them unto the father of the damsel, because he hath brought up an evil name upon a virgin of Israel: and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days." If a man accuses his wife of not being a virgin when she married him, and she is able to prove that she was a virgin, then he had to pay her father 100 shekels of silver, and was prohibited from ever divorcing her. The passage continues, by saying that if she cannot prove her virginity, that she was stoned to death. Interestingly enough, this passage allows a husband to arrange the murder of his wife in certain circumstances, and thus obtain a divorce through her death.

Jumpy
06-04-2008, 09:29 PM
Where is Gingersnap in this thread?? I read the link and apparantly the groom was looking for bleeding as a sign of virginity? How could he prove that she'd had sex prior to her honeymoon?

Girls who ride horses, gymnasts, etc, might not bleed.

megimoo
06-04-2008, 09:35 PM
When I was younger I went out on a date with a girl. Things got hot and heavy. At the moment of entry I suddenly stopped and went, My God, if I knew you were a virgin, I would have been more gentle.

To which she replied If I knew that you were in such a fuckin' hurry, i would have already taken off my panty hose.

Old joke, but still funny.evil man,evil man,...Benny Hill show !

LibraryLady
06-04-2008, 10:00 PM
Fraud (Canon 1098) Reasons for Marriage Annulment
You or your spouse was intentionally deceived about the presence or absence of a quality in the other. The reason for this deception was to obtain consent to marriage.

This is what is usually used.

megimoo
06-04-2008, 10:37 PM
This is what is usually used.
Deception can take many forms ,but It fails to mention Virginity.The root cause of the desire to marry a virgin is a fear of being cuckolded by his wife if she were worldly and sexually experienced.A shy humble young girl who has just left her mothers influences is much to be prefered !BTW the catholic church will do just about anything to save a marrage unless you are extremely wealthy and can pay for the annulment for the rest of her life !

Gingersnap
06-04-2008, 11:58 PM
Where is Gingersnap in this thread?? I read the link and apparantly the groom was looking for bleeding as a sign of virginity? How could he prove that she'd had sex prior to her honeymoon?

Girls who ride horses, gymnasts, etc, might not bleed.

'Tis true - hymens vary in thickness, elasticity, and durability. Long after I was married I was still asked, "Are you a virgin?" by gynos because my hymen was easily pushed to the side (with no pain or ill effects). On the downside, I would have had no bloody sheet to display for tribal amusement.

The RCC does list lack of virginity as possible grounds for annulment. However, if the parties in question went through the Pre-Cana counseling that is offered and urged, they would have worked through those issues long before the nuptials.

In real life it is impossible to detect all female virgins although some have bleeding. I knew a girl who broke her hymen with an awkward high dive when I was on the swim team. Go figure.

megimoo
06-05-2008, 08:10 AM
'Tis true - hymens vary in thickness, elasticity, and durability. Long after I was married I was still asked, "Are you a virgin?" by gynos because my hymen was easily pushed to the side (with no pain or ill effects). On the downside, I would have had no bloody sheet to display for tribal amusement.

The RCC does list lack of virginity as possible grounds for annulment. However, if the parties in question went through the Pre-Cana counseling that is offered and urged, they would have worked through those issues long before the nuptials.

In real life it is impossible to detect all female virgins although some have bleeding. I knew a girl who broke her hymen with an awkward high dive when I was on the swim team. Go figure.Girls are allright but there is nothing like the real thing !!!!

noonwitch
06-05-2008, 09:00 AM
This kind of stuff rackles my inner feminist.

1. I hate it when female virginity is defined as having a hymen. Does this mean that rape victims who have never voluntarily had sex are not virgins? That's a backwards mentality, and where it doesn't surprise me to hear it expressed by european muslims, I don't like it that the french courts agreed.

2. Why do men of any backround expect a woman to be a virgin by that definition, in this day and age? Women ride horses, fall off bikes, use tampons, etc., things that sometimes break hymens without being sexual acts.

Megimo beat me to the Deut. quote, which I think just underscores my point that viewing women and virginity in such a way is part of the old way of thinking and needs to end in the modern world. There's also the part in the same book that tells us to stone urban rape victims if they don't scream. We don't do that in the modern world, whether we chalk it up to Christianity's influence or feminism, or both (Jesus was a feminist, in a way, because he valued women in a culture and time that didn't do so).

Goldwater
06-05-2008, 09:04 AM
1. I hate it when female virginity is defined as having a hymen. Does this mean that rape victims who have never voluntarily had sex are not virgins? That's a backwards mentality, and where it doesn't surprise me to hear it expressed by european muslims, I don't like it that the french courts agreed.

Well technically they're not, their virginity was stolen from them. Although I think (and would hope) a husband would understand.

biccat
06-05-2008, 09:16 AM
Well technically they're not, their virginity was stolen from them. Although I think (and would hope) a husband would understand.
Aren't rape victims usually stoned/beaten/imprisoned in Muslim theocracies?

noonwitch
06-05-2008, 10:05 AM
Aren't rape victims usually stoned/beaten/imprisoned in Muslim theocracies?


It happens frequently enough that it should be recognized. I think there was a case in Nigeria in the last few years, although I don't think the stoning actually ended up taking place. A Sharia court convicted a rape victim of adultry and sentenced her to death by stoning.

If I remember correctly, the Taliban executed women in a public arena for adultry.

I defend american muslims and their right to practice their religion, and so far, we don't see a lot of this kind of action in the american muslim community, probably because they understand that our law enforcement is not going to tolerate that kind of crap. But I get really annoyed with DUers who minimize the anti-female aspect within a good part of Islam.