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FlaGator
07-01-2010, 11:26 AM
Today's North Florida forecast is a little different for a change. Instead of being hot and rainy this afternoon. It will be really warm and rainy.

TOTD: In light of the earlier thread on the wrath of God, I thought I would have today's topic as the ironies of God. The Christopher Hitchens news got me thinking about his. Here is a guy who has spoken out strongly against the existence of God and now he has developed a malignant from of throat cancer. I am not wishing harm or gloating over Mr. Hitchens' malaise, I just am noting a bit of the punishment fitting the crime here that is hard to deny if you are a believer. I do hope him a speedy and complete recovery and I will add him to my prayers.

Do you recall any other potential ironies of God? Another that I am reminded of (just be be fair) is Ted Haggard's preaching against homosexuality only to be exposed for having a homosexual tryst with a drug addict.

Rebel Yell
07-01-2010, 11:36 AM
I don't think this is what you're talking about, but 2 things that have always stood out to me were.....

How can God be all knowing and man have free will at the same time. If God knows what decisions you will make before you make them, how do you have free will. This one I worked out myself. God is watching us in the same way I would watch a rerun of my favorite show. I already know what's gonna happen, but I didn't make it happen.

Was Jesus the son of God or was Jesus God on Earth? I have been told that Jesus was God by a preacher. My question to him was, "If Jesus was God, then who was he praying to?".

lacarnut
07-01-2010, 12:04 PM
Although I am a believer, I look at it a little differently. If you smoke, drink or do drugs excessively, you stand a chance of damaging your body. Smokers are prone to lung cancer. Whether you are god fearing or not, that is just a reality. In my case, I smoked 3 packs a day for many years and have suffered no ill effects in the last 20 or more years. Your take on the irony of God in Mr Hitchens case puzzles me cause he is a heavy smoker.

FlaGator
07-01-2010, 12:16 PM
Although I am a believer, I look at it a little differently. If you smoke, drink or do drugs excessively, you stand a chance of damaging your body. Smokers are prone to lung cancer. Whether you are god fearing or not, that is just a reality. In my case, I smoked 3 packs a day for many years and have suffered no ill effects in the last 20 or more years. Your take on the irony of God in Mr Hitchens case puzzles me cause he is a heavy smoker.

Do you believe that God is control of all things? I too was a heavy smoker. 3 packs a day when I quit. The reason, I believe, that I did not get cancer was that it was God's will that I didn't. If it was His will then I would have gotten cancer and if it was His will I would have died from it. I drank heavily for 30 years and if it was God's will that I die of liver damage then I would have died. He chose that I live.

My view of God is that he either causes by action or lets happen by inaction everything that I have experienced. It is part of his plan to turn me in to the person he intends me to be and that I fulfill my role in his redemptive plan for mankind.

Thus, Hitchens spoke against God and God allowed him to be stricken with throat cancer.

linda22003
07-01-2010, 12:47 PM
Thus, Hitchens spoke against God and God allowed him to be stricken with throat cancer.

For me, that crosses the line between faith and superstition. I'd like to think God had more important things to do than to "smiteth" Hitchens over his columns.

FlaGator
07-01-2010, 01:16 PM
For me, that crosses the line between faith and superstition. I'd like to think God had more important things to do than to "smiteth" Hitchens over his columns.

You have a very weak god if he is incapable of being concerned with the little things and the big things. All things are under the care and control of God from the actions of the tiniest particle to the maintenance of all creation. God over looks nothing. To do so would be to make Him not God.

You are right to some degree, it is superstition to think that God is not concerned with every aspect of your life, no matter how trivial.

On edit: Perhaps God didn't smite him, He just let nature take its course when He could have healed him?

NJCardFan
07-01-2010, 01:34 PM
My confusions on God are this: We all hear how God gave us free will however, we also hear how God has a plan for us or how this or that is God's will. How can we have free will if God has a plan for us? As for your Hitchens thing, it's not an irony of God but hypocrisy of man. This is spoken about in the Bible. Funny how this slipped passed you Gator. ;)

noonwitch
07-01-2010, 01:56 PM
It's another really nice, slightly unseasonably cool day. Sunny, 75 degrees.


TOTD: I worship a loving God, not a vengeful one. He still has a sense of humor about us, though, how can He not have one? A good example like Fla Gator's: My dad was a raging alcoholic from the ages of 20 until he was in his mid 60s. He is now a healthy 76 years old and has never developed any kind of liver problems.



In the case of Hitchens, I think God would be most ironic if He were to heal Hitchens of his cancer, in a way that defies medical science-if the healing came as a result of a "road to Damascus" type of intervention. Blinding light, voices from the sky, the whole works.

lacarnut
07-01-2010, 03:24 PM
Do you believe that God is control of all things? I too was a heavy smoker. 3 packs a day when I quit. The reason, I believe, that I did not get cancer was that it was God's will that I didn't. If it was His will then I would have gotten cancer and if it was His will I would have died from it. I drank heavily for 30 years and if it was God's will that I die of liver damage then I would have died. He chose that I live.

My view of God is that he either causes by action or lets happen by inaction everything that I have experienced. It is part of his plan to turn me in to the person he intends me to be and that I fulfill my role in his redemptive plan for mankind.

Thus, Hitchens spoke against God and God allowed him to be stricken with throat cancer.

I believe that God has the power to control all things. In my case, I believe my mother's prayers kept me from killing myself. I sure tried hard enough with all the auto wrecks I had. It is a miracle that I am alive today. Other than a bunch of scars on my forehead from bashing windshields, I do not have any after effects of drinking and smoking excessively.

I believe those that mock God do so at their own peril but I do not think he causes someone that is a smoker to get cancer. In the case of Mr Hitchens, he probably just lets it happen. Like I said, many but not all heavy smokers get cancer.

FlaGator
07-01-2010, 04:54 PM
It's another really nice, slightly unseasonably cool day. Sunny, 75 degrees.


TOTD: I worship a loving God, not a vengeful one. He still has a sense of humor about us, though, how can He not have one? A good example like Fla Gator's: My dad was a raging alcoholic from the ages of 20 until he was in his mid 60s. He is now a healthy 76 years old and has never developed any kind of liver problems.



In the case of Hitchens, I think God would be most ironic if He were to heal Hitchens of his cancer, in a way that defies medical science-if the healing came as a result of a "road to Damascus" type of intervention. Blinding light, voices from the sky, the whole works.

I worship a loving God as well, but He can be wrathful (or at least what we consider as wrathful) against those who hate Him. Instead of calling it wrath I prefer to think of it as justice. We deal with a loving God who also is a just God. When I started reading the Bible I realized that there were aspects of it that I didn't like but I also understood that I couldn't pick and choose the things I like and discard those things that I didn't like. To do that would be to glean an incomplete understanding of what God is saying to us in the Bible. Also, it would be a form of idolatry where I was constructing my own God based upon my likes and dislikes. I had to either accept the Bible or reject it in total. I accepted it in total and I began to learn more about the character of God. He loves us and wants us to do what is right but He also demands justice. In His love he shows some mercy and the rest receive justice. No one receives less than justice. It is a hard teaching I suppose, but there is comfort in knowing that there is a God who cares for me and that all he asks of me is to believe in Him and to show my love for him by doing my best to behave as He asks. For this I am promised that I am forgiven when I screw up and I will be rewarded with eternity in His presence.

Kay
07-01-2010, 10:07 PM
Weather here today is remnants of Alex.
Clouds rolled in today with lots of winds.
Now just really cloudy and drizzeling.

The deal with Hitchens seems to me more like a Karma payback.

Gingersnap
07-01-2010, 10:37 PM
Beautiful day here - upper 80s, clear, and wonderful.

TOTD: I can see the irony with old Chris but I never dwell on those things in other people's lives. I believe in the Total Package God - merciful, just, angry, sorrowful, and way smarter than I will ever hope to be. I'm pretty Reformed (theologically, not liturgically) so the whole free will/predestination/omniscience thing makes sense to me.

We like to call it Grace. ;)

Wei Wu Wei
07-01-2010, 11:41 PM
My confusions on God are this: We all hear how God gave us free will however, we also hear how God has a plan for us or how this or that is God's will. How can we have free will if God has a plan for us? As for your Hitchens thing, it's not an irony of God but hypocrisy of man. This is spoken about in the Bible. Funny how this slipped passed you Gator. ;)

This question is often framed as if there are two choices: we have free will, or we are determined by fate/a plan/God/the natural course of the universe.

Frankly, I think both of those perspectives are wrong. We neither have free will nor are we determined.

MrsSmith
07-02-2010, 01:25 AM
There is no conflict between our free will and the fact that God already knows our choices.

He also knows ouir pains, sorrows and sicknesses...and lives through each with us, moreso than any human could do.

By His love, He will withhold judgment and show mercy to even the most blind and foolish human, waiting patiently for us to finally "get it" and turn to Him. He grants even those like Hitchens the ability to breathe His air, eat His food, drink His water, walk upon His earth...and meet Him, face to face, someday.

RobJohnson
07-02-2010, 02:29 AM
I was in Las Vegas most of the day and it said it was 106 outside. There was a nice breeze and no humidity.

Took a friend and her two boys to see a movie, the arcade & a great buffet at the Red Rock Casino. On the way home we stopped for Slurpees from 7-11 for the trip home over the mountian. It was a beautiful skyscape of sunset & mountain tops for miles and miles....breath taking view.

I had the day off work and took advantage of it. I had a blast.