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megimoo
08-10-2008, 08:00 PM
The conflict between Georgia and Russia would have exploded anyway, in some form, were Nato to have pressed ahead with offering Georgia a start on the road to membership, possibly at its meeting at the end of the year. The eruption on Friday should not deter Nato from taking that step soon.

Of course, many Nato members will consider how, had Georgia already been a member, they would have had to defend it. Germany will win more support for its argument, which dominated the Nato summit in April, that it would be wrong to offer membership for fear of provoking Russia and while its territory remains in dispute. Alarm at this near-war on Europe’s borders will easily persuade more governments of the need for caution.

That would be wrong. It would tell Russia that it had an effective veto over who joined Nato. It would discourage the pro-American and pro-European spirit of President Saakashvili, elected in 2004 partly for those sentiments. It might even make it harder to agree the deployment of international peacemakers in South Ossetia by showing that the US and Europe were indifferent to Georgia’s case.

There appear to have been serious miscalculations, more so on the Georgian side. Given the close contact with the US, that might be extended to the US as well. Saakashvili may have deluded himself that four years of US help in equipping his armed forces enabled them to make a dash for their prize. In taking advantage of the distraction of the Olympics, he looks sneaky, and so jeopardises his claim to the moral high ground.



The Nato summit was a clash of philosophies about Europe’s future. On one side was President Bush, making one of his best speeches, about the value of bringing Georgia and Ukraine into Nato as an assertion of common principles. On the other was Angela Merkel, the German Chancellor, laying out why this should be postponed, perhaps for ever, even at the cost of undermining the pro-Western camp in Georgia. (British officials let it be known that they were on the American side in sympathy, but as the US would not win, they were “on the side of compromise”.)



http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4497302.ece

Aklover
08-11-2008, 12:29 AM
Pretty fucking sad that we have offered them no real help, they came into Iraq with us.

gator
08-11-2008, 07:50 AM
Pretty fucking sad that we have offered them no real help, they came into Iraq with us.

Maybe the reason they did was to incur a little debt from the US.

We have no business worrying about places like South Ossetia. With hundreds of thousands of troops already deployed on combat missions all over the world the last thing our country needs to do is get involved with another stupid foreign entanglement.

Since the war has nothing to do with the security of Israel the NeoCons will blow it off. The Liberals don’t even know what is going on. Georgia is pretty well fucked in drumming up American or International support.

Maybe they could have conjured up a fabrication that the Ossetians were massing weapons of mass destruction that was a threat to Israel and then the American NeoCon war drums would be beating so loud you could hear them all the way to Moscow.

gator
08-11-2008, 08:15 AM
Maybe we will get involved in it:

http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=1358


Israel backs Georgia in Caspian Oil Pipeline Battle with Russia

DEBKAfile Exclusive Report

August 8, 2008

Georgian tanks and infantry, aided by Israeli military advisers, captured the capital of breakaway South Ossetia, Tskhinvali, early Friday, Aug. 8, bringing the Georgian-Russian conflict over the province to a military climax.

Russian prime minister Vladimir Putin threatened a “military response.”

Former Soviet Georgia called up its military reserves after Russian warplanes bombed its new positions in the renegade province.

In Moscow’s first response to the fall of Tskhinvali, president Dimitry Medvedev ordered the Russian army to prepare for a national emergency after calling the UN Security Council into emergency session early Friday.

Reinforcements were rushed to the Russian “peacekeeping force” present in the region to support the separatists.

Georgian tanks entered the capital after heavy overnight heavy aerial strikes, in which dozens of people were killed.

Lado Gurgenidze, Georgia's prime minister, said on Friday that Georgia will continue its military operation in South Ossetia until a "durable peace" is reached. "As soon as a durable peace takes hold we need to move forward with dialogue and peaceful negotiations."

DEBKAfile’s geopolitical experts note that on the surface level, the Russians are backing the separatists of S. Ossetia and neighboring Abkhazia as payback for the strengthening of American influence in tiny Georgia and its 4.5 million inhabitants. However, more immediately, the conflict has been sparked by the race for control over the pipelines carrying oil and gas out of the Caspian region.

The Russians may just bear with the pro-US Georgian president Mikhail Saakashvili’s ambition to bring his country into NATO. But they draw a heavy line against his plans and those of Western oil companies, including Israeli firms, to route the oil routes from Azerbaijan and the gas lines from Turkmenistan, which transit Georgia, through Turkey instead of hooking them up to Russian pipelines.

Saakashvili need only back away from this plan for Moscow to ditch the two provinces’ revolt against Tbilisi. As long as he sticks to his guns, South Ossetia and Abkhazia will wage separatist wars.

DEBKAfile discloses Israel’s interest in the conflict from its exclusive military sources:

Jerusalem owns a strong interest in Caspian oil and gas pipelines reach the Turkish terminal port of Ceyhan, rather than the Russian network. Intense negotiations are afoot between Israel Turkey, Georgia, Turkmenistan and Azarbaijan for pipelines to reach Turkey and thence to Israel’s oil terminal at Ashkelon and on to its Red Sea port of Eilat. From there, supertankers can carry the gas and oil to the Far East through the Indian Ocean.

Aware of Moscow’s sensitivity on the oil question, Israel offered Russia a stake in the project but was rejected.

Last year, the Georgian president commissioned from private Israeli security firms several hundred military advisers, estimated at up to 1,000, to train the Georgian armed forces in commando, air, sea, armored and artillery combat tactics. They also offer instruction on military intelligence and security for the central regime. Tbilisi also purchased weapons, intelligence and electronic warfare systems from Israel.

These advisers were undoubtedly deeply involved in the Georgian army’s preparations to conquer the South Ossetian capital Friday.

In recent weeks, Moscow has repeatedly demanded that Jerusalem halt its military assistance to Georgia, finally threatening a crisis in bilateral relations. Israel responded by saying that the only assistance rendered Tbilisi was “defensive.”

This has not gone down well in the Kremlin. Therefore, as the military crisis intensifies in South Ossetia, Moscow may be expected to punish Israel for its intervention.


Maybe we will be pulled into another stupid war for the benefit of Israel. This is a dated article but it shows we are continuing our entanglements.


http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0LIY/is_10_89/ai_87509631



Green Berets now in Georgia: U.S. Special Forces are training Georgian soldiers to fight radical Muslims. The mission could benefit other U.S. interests as well

VFW Magazine, June-July, 2002 by Tim Dyhouse


E-mail Print Link President George Bush called the May deployment of some 150 U.S. advisers to Georgia the latest front in the U.S. war on terrorism. Much like their fellow soldiers in the Philippines, U.S. Special Forces are teaching Georgian soldiers how to better fight Muslim extremists within their country. Also, as in the Philippines, U.S. troops are not permitted to engage in combat.

"So long as there's al Qaeda anywhere, we will help the host countries root them out and bring them to justice," Bush has said.

Georgia is the first former Soviet republic to train with U.S. troops since Sept. 11. (Several other ex-Soviet states have allowed the use of their airfields.) The mission gives Washington a strategic toehold to help stabilize the oil-rich and volatile Caspian Sea region.

megimoo
08-11-2008, 11:51 AM
Maybe we will get involved in it:

http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=1358



Maybe we will be pulled into another stupid war for the benefit of Israel. This is a dated article but it shows we are continuing our entanglements.


http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0LIY/is_10_89/ai_87509631
Just for the record Gator I didn't post that Israeli stuff ,You did and If it goes on for a few hunderd entrie's don't blame me !

biccat
08-11-2008, 02:11 PM
Germany will win more support for its argument, which dominated the Nato summit in April, that it would be wrong to offer membership for fear of provoking Russia
Maybe I am confused with something else...but wasn't opposing Russia the reason NATO was created?!?!?

Theophilus
08-11-2008, 02:26 PM
Maybe I am confused with something else...but wasn't opposing Russia the reason NATO was created?!?!?I think it was conceived like the useless UN as just another vehicle to pick the pocket of the US taxpayer.

Goldwater
08-11-2008, 03:48 PM
Maybe I am confused with something else...but wasn't opposing Russia the reason NATO was created?!?!?

It was created to stop the Soviet Union. It is outdated for the current state of affairs.

megimoo
08-11-2008, 04:40 PM
Maybe I am confused with something else...but wasn't opposing Russia the reason NATO was created?!?!?

This invasion of Georgia will spook Poland and the rest of the former Soviet slave states into doing something but he hopes it will scare them into not accepting NATO membership or ABM'S !

On the one hand Russia calculates that we will do nothing military to help Georgia and Putin took a small calculated risk.

He feels closed in with these countries either planning on joining NATO of basing ABM Missiles next door to Russia .He hopes this will 'scatter the chickens' so to speak !

Russia will wait and watch the US presidential elections and if the liberal/Maoists win he will expand his plan to rebuild the Soviet Union on new oil revenues and start all over again .

megimoo
08-11-2008, 04:48 PM
McCain Ups the Ante on The Republic of Georgia

"Sounds Like Our Next President !":D

– Today, in Erie, Pennsylvania, U.S. Senator John McCain delivered the following statement regarding the current conflict between Georgia and Russia: “Americans wishing to spend August vacationing with their families or watching the Olympics may wonder why their newspapers and television screens are filled with images of war in the small country of Georgia. Concerns about what occurs there might seem distant and unrelated to the many other interests America has around the world. And yet Russian aggression against Georgia is both a matter of urgent moral and strategic importance to the United States of America.... snip


“In recent days Moscow has sent its tanks and troops across the internationally recognized border into the Georgian region of South Ossetia. Statements by Moscow that it was merely aiding the Ossetians are belied by reports of Russian troops in the region of Abkhazia, repeated Russian bombing raids across Georgia, and reports of a de facto Russian naval blockade of the Georgian coast. Whatever tensions and hostilities might have existed between Georgians and Ossetians, they in no way justify Moscow’s path of violent aggression. Russian actions, in clear violation of international law, have no place in 21st century Europe.

“The implications of Russian actions go beyond their threat to the territorial integrity and independence of a democratic Georgia. Russia is using violence against Georgia, in part, to intimidate other neighbors – such as Ukraine – for choosing to associate with the West and adhering to Western political and economic values. As such, the fate of Georgia should be of grave concern to Americans and all people who welcomed the end of a divided of Europe, and the independence of former Soviet republics. The international response to this crisis will determine how Russia manages its relationships with other neighbors. We have other important strategic interests at stake in Georgia, especially the continued flow of oil through the Baku-Tblisi-Ceyhan pipeline, which Russia attempted to bomb in recent days; the operation of a critical communication and trade route from Georgia through Azerbaijan and Central Asia; and the integrity and influence of NATO, whose members reaffirmed last April the territorial integrity, independence, and sovereignty of Georgia.


http://cameron.blogs.foxnews.com/2008/08/11/mccain-ups-the-ante-on-the-republic-of-georgia/

megimoo
08-11-2008, 04:56 PM
[Polish] Day of Solidarity with Georgia

"By joining NATO, Poland became a member of a military alliance, which in an efficient way, provides for its security," says Polish Ambassador Przemyslaw Grudzinski. "Poland gained security and confidence, which are fundamental for further development. Without effective and credible security guarantees, the transition toward more prosperous and democratic order would have been much more complex and difficult."

Law and Justice MP and former deputy foreign minister Pawel Kowal called for the launch of a campaign of solidarity with the Georgian nation. He said that red and white ribbons -

the colors of both the Georgian and Polish flags - should be worn by all politicians, media figures and ordinary members of the public. A Day of Solidarity with Georgia will be organized in Poland tomorrow.

Also, Polish Humanitarian Organization (PAH) announced it will provide aid to victims of the conflict on South Ossetia by collecting donations. Meanwhile, around 100 protestors gathered outside the Russian Embassy in Warsaw,...

http://poland.pl/news/article,Day_of_Solidarity_with_Georgia,id,341260.h tm

megimoo
08-11-2008, 05:26 PM
Poland: Presidents Of 5 Ex-Communist Countries Head To Georgia

WARSAW (AFP)--The presidents of five ex-communist countries will travel to Georgia to back Georgia in its war with Russia, a senior aide to Poland's President Lech Kaczynski told Monday.


http://www.nasdaq.com/aspxcontent/NewsStory.aspx?cpath=20080811%5cACQDJON20080811143 4DOWJONESDJONLINE000422.htm&&mypage=newsheadlines&title=Poland:%20Presidents%20Of%205%20Ex-Communist%20Countries%20Head%20To%20Georgia

biccat
08-11-2008, 05:32 PM
It was created to stop the Soviet Union. It is outdated for the current state of affairs.
I suppose you're right. NATO was only relevant when Russia was bullying her weaker neighbors into submission by economic, political, and military forces.

None of that going on anymore.

megimoo
08-11-2008, 05:39 PM
Russia Warns Baltics, Poland To Pay For Georgia Stance-Report


"Sure Sounds Like A Russian Threat To Retaliate To Me !"

RIGA, Latvia (AFP)--Russia's ambassador to Latvia Monday warned the Baltic states and Poland that they would pay for their criticism of the Kremlin over the conflict in Georgia, the Baltic news agency BNS reported.

"One must not hurry on such serious issues, as serious mistakes can be made that have to be paid for a long time afterwards," Alexander Veshnyakov was quoted as saying by BNS.

Contacted by AFP, a spokesman for the Russian embassy in Riga confirmed the ambassador's comments but declined to elaborate.

Veshnyakov's remarks followed a joint statement Saturday by Latvia's President Valdis Zatlers and his counterparts from Estonia, Lithuania and Poland which called on the European Union and the North Atlantic Treaty Organization to oppose Russia's "imperialist" policy towards Georgia.

The three Baltic states -- which were part of the Soviet Union -- and Poland are staunch allies of Georgia, a former Soviet republic.

Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland are now members of the E.U. and NATO.


http://www.nasdaq.com/aspxcontent/NewsStory.aspx?cpath=20080811%5cACQDJON20080811084 2DOWJONESDJONLINE000221.htm&&mypage=newsheadlines&title=Russia%20Warns%20Baltics,%20Poland%20To%20Pa y%20For%20Georgia%20Stance-Report

Goldwater
08-11-2008, 11:19 PM
I suppose you're right. NATO was only relevant when Russia was bullying her weaker neighbors into submission by economic, political, and military forces.

None of that going on anymore.

Not bullying, when it had enslaved half of Europe and the percieved threat of communism as an idealogy was at America and Western Europe's door step.

biccat
08-12-2008, 09:55 AM
Not bullying, when it had enslaved half of Europe and the percieved threat of communism as an idealogy was at America and Western Europe's door step.
So are you saying Russia didn't install puppet governments into the Soviet states, bleed them of economic resources, and use the threat of force to suppress opposition? That's exactly what Russia is trying to do now in Georgia, and given this news (http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=112347), plans to expand their threat to other Baltic states.

Or are you suggesting that until Russia re-enslaves Eastern Europe, we shouldn't do anything to stop them?

Goldwater
08-12-2008, 11:35 AM
So are you saying Russia didn't install puppet governments into the Soviet states, bleed them of economic resources, and use the threat of force to suppress opposition? That's exactly what Russia is trying to do now in Georgia, and given this news (http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=112347), plans to expand their threat to other Baltic states.

Or are you suggesting that until Russia re-enslaves Eastern Europe, we shouldn't do anything to stop them?

I'm suggesting NATO is not a permanent weight to be pushed on Russia until it gives up in every way. NATO was made to end the cold war, but it's presence may make another. Now that they are free, they need to start making their own security, all the countries in that region. I would much prefer the EU (made up together of the richest countires in the world) or someone else with more vested in the region to grow some balls and do it, instead of a country seperated by an ocean do it.

megimoo
08-12-2008, 12:02 PM
I'm suggesting NATO is not a permanent weight to be pushed on Russia until it gives up in every way. NATO was made to end the cold war, but it's presence may make another. Now that they are free, they need to start making their own security, all the countries in that region. I would much prefer the EU (made up together of the richest countires in the world) or someone else with more vested in the region to grow some balls and do it, instead of a country seperated by an ocean do it.

What are you babbling about ? NATO is a military alliance to contain the Russian Bears Territorial ambitions.As long as Russia has any military power NATO will be relevent !

biccat
08-12-2008, 12:34 PM
I'm suggesting NATO is not a permanent weight to be pushed on Russia until it gives up in every way. NATO was made to end the cold war, but it's presence may make another. Now that they are free, they need to start making their own security, all the countries in that region. I would much prefer the EU (made up together of the richest countires in the world) or someone else with more vested in the region to grow some balls and do it, instead of a country seperated by an ocean do it.

The EU should act, and should have a military force strong enough to repel Russia, but they aren't going to. The Europeans are the ones who opposed Georgia entering NATO because they didn't want to upset the Russians, basically modern EU governments are fine entering into treaties, but only so long as there is no potential for future conflict. :rolleyes:

The United States cannot be completely insular and let Europe be dominated by Russia, we have too many economic and political allies in the region.

I'm not suggesting that we use NATO to get Russia to give up in every way. But it should be used to repel military force by Russia against other states.

BTW, the EU isn't comprised of the richest countries in the world, there are 27 countries in the EU, 5 in the top 10 (by GDP), and 7 in the top 20 (by GDP). The United States has 4 individual states in the top 20 world economies, bumping out Turkey, Pakistan, Belgium, and Indonesia.

Goldwater
08-12-2008, 12:38 PM
BTW, the EU isn't comprised of the richest countries in the world, there are 27 countries in the EU, 5 in the top 10 (by GDP), and 7 in the top 20 (by GDP). The United States has 4 individual states in the top 20 world economies, bumping out Turkey, Pakistan, Belgium, and Indonesia.

I mean that Europe is the richest continent in the world, and the US borrows money from them to protect them.

biccat
08-12-2008, 12:41 PM
I mean that Europe is the richest continent in the world, and the US borrows money from them to protect them.
I think Asia is the richest continent in the world.

megimoo
08-12-2008, 01:09 PM
Moscow’s Sinister Brilliance:Who wants to die for Tbilisi?

Lost amid all the controversies surrounding the Georgian tragedy is

the sheer diabolic brilliance of the long-planned Russia invasion. :eek:

Let us count the ways in which it is a win/win situation for Russia.

The Home Front
The long-suffering Russian people resent the loss of global influence and empire, but not necessarily the Soviet Union and its gulags that once ensured such stature. The invasion restores a sense of Russian nationalism and power to its populace without the stink of Stalinism, and is indeed cloaked as a sort of humanitarian intervention on behalf of beleaguered Ossetians.

There will be no Russian demonstrations about an “illegal war,” much less nonsense about “blood for oil,” but instead rejoicing at the payback of an uppity former province that felt its Western credentials somehow trumped Russian tanks. How ironic that the Western heartthrob, the old Marxist Mikhail Gorbachev, is now both lamenting Western encouragement of Georgian “aggression,” while simultaneously gloating over the return of Russian military daring.

Sinister Timing
Russia’s only worry is the United States, which currently has a lame-duck president with low approval ratings, and is exhausted after Afghanistan and Iraq.

But more importantly, America’s attention is preoccupied with a presidential race, in which “world citizen” Barack Obama has mesmerized Europe as the presumptive new president and soon-to-be disciple of European soft power.

Better yet for Russia, instead of speaking with one voice, America is all over the map with three reactions from Bush, McCain, and Obama — all of them mutually contradictory, at least initially. Meanwhile, the world’s televisions are turned toward the Olympics in Beijing. The autocratic Chinese, busy jailing reporters and dissidents, are not about to say an unkind word about Russian intervention. If anything, the pageantry at their grandiose stadiums provides welcome distractions for those embarrassed over the ease with which Russia smothered Georgia.

Comeuppance
Most importantly, Putin and Medvedev have called the West’s bluff.

We are sort of stuck in a time-warp of the 1990s, seemingly eons ago in which a once-earnest weak post-Soviet Russia sought Western economic help and political mentoring. But those days are long gone, and diplomacy hasn’t caught up with the new realities. Russia is flush with billions. It serves as a rallying point and arms supplier to thugs the world over that want leverage in their anti-Western agendas. For the last five years, its foreign policy can be reduced to “Whatever the United States is for, we are against.”

The geopolitical message is clear to both the West and the former Soviet Republics: don’t consider NATO membership (i.e., do the Georgians really think that, should they have been NATO members, any succor would have been forthcoming?).


Together with the dismal NATO performance in Afghanistan, the Georgian incursion reveals the weakness of the Atlantic Alliance.

The tragic irony is unmistakable. NATO was given a gift in not having made Georgia a member, since otherwise an empty ritual of evoking Article V’s promise of mutual assistance in time of war would have effectively destroyed the Potemkin alliance.

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MDcwY2I4MjhjMTc0Y2Y4ZmJmMWNmNzJlOTA0Y2MxYjg=

ReaganForRus
08-12-2008, 07:07 PM
Maybe I am confused with something else...but wasn't opposing Russia the reason NATO was created?!?!?

You're correct....however, Georgia isn't a member of NATO. IF a NATO member is attacked, then all of NATO is attacked (in theory). Personally, I don't see the EU or NATO doing anything on Russia because (1.) Russia provides 25% of natural gas and oil to EU countries and EU loves stability and money more than freedom (eastern Europe excluded) and (2.) as much bitching that Europe does about the imperialist US and all the war mongering that the US does, they will sit back and demand and expect the United States to defend their countries and economies.

biccat
08-13-2008, 08:25 AM
You're correct....however, Georgia isn't a member of NATO. IF a NATO member is attacked, then all of NATO is attacked (in theory). Personally, I don't see the EU or NATO doing anything on Russia because (1.) Russia provides 25% of natural gas and oil to EU countries and EU loves stability and money more than freedom (eastern Europe excluded) and (2.) as much bitching that Europe does about the imperialist US and all the war mongering that the US does, they will sit back and demand and expect the United States to defend their countries and economies.

You're right, of course, but my point about Russia and NATO was based on the Germans saying "that it would be wrong to offer membership [to Georgia] for fear of provoking Russia."

NATO, being Western Europe's answer to the Warsaw Pact, should not cave to Russian demands.

Molon Labe
08-13-2008, 10:46 AM
Maybe I am confused with something else...but wasn't opposing Russia the reason NATO was created?!?!?

No. It was created for the Soviet empire threat...which disappeared almost two decades ago before some here were born.
NATO has been used to expand U.S. "security" into a sphere we have no business in... Eastern Europe and S.W. Asia

biccat
08-13-2008, 10:56 AM
NATO has been used to expand U.S. "security" into a sphere we have no business in... Eastern Europe and S.W. Asia
So intervention in Western Europe, good. Intervention in Eastern Europe and S.W. Asia, bad.

What exactly is the rationale for the distinction?

Molon Labe
08-13-2008, 11:13 AM
So intervention in Western Europe, good. Intervention in Eastern Europe and S.W. Asia, bad.

What exactly is the rationale for the distinction?

Sure... there is a tremendous difference between limited and international multilateral organizations. Neither is a good thing, but if your going to have one...as NATO, you don't keep expanding it. Especially when the threat it was created for does not exist.
In other words if cancer is cured, you believe the Cancer society should continue?

Maybe my history is a little off, but the Soviet Union did end ...Right? Who exactly is the threat now? How far do you suggest we go? Are we going to offer every little podunk piss ant nation a guaranteed security?

Are you familiar with the type of security dilema this creates for the region. Are you aware of the term Zero sum game in international politics?

Put yourself in the place of the Russian federation. Few that think that NATO expansion is a keen idea actually do this, but if Russia had defeated us in the cold war and was expanding the warsaw pact into W. Europe and central America, we would protest.

biccat
08-13-2008, 11:23 AM
Sure... there is a tremendous difference between limited and international multilateral organizations. Neither is a good thing, but if your going to have one...as NATO, you don't keep expanding it. Especially when the threat it was created for does not exist.
In other words if cancer is cured, you believe the Cancer society should continue?
The problem is that Russia is proving that there is a need for NATO. They are threatening their former satellites and beginning military action to gather resource rich areas. And if you look at some of their internals, they are slipping back towards the Soviet style. Only this time they're not calling it Communism.


Maybe my history is a little off, but the Soviet Union did end ...Right? Who exactly is the threat now? How far do you suggest we go? Are we going to offer every little podunk piss ant nation a guaranteed security?

Are you familiar with the type of security dilema this creates for the region. Are you aware of the term Zero sum game in international politics?
I think that NATO provides a strong link to the west that surpasses a mere military alliance. If NATO were only a military alliance, you would have a good point. But joining NATO now means prosperity, Democracy, and freedom. It is very appealing to Eastern European countries.


Put yourself in the place of the Russian federation. Few that think that NATO expansion is a keen idea actually do this, but if Russia had defeated us in the cold war and was expanding the warsaw pact into W. Europe and central America, we would protest.
I doubt that, because if Russia had defeated us, then we would have official party media telling us we should be electing a Marxist leader...

hm.

Well, at least you and I would already be in reeducation camps. Fortunately, we've got until January or February until that happens. Hooray for winning the Cold War!

NonConformist
08-13-2008, 11:26 AM
If they had been a member of NATO I seriously doubt Russia would have attacked, they dont want to provoke us.

IMO NATO wont work anymore, too many members are in the EU and they are working on their own joint Military, or have the desire to do so

The only countries that would muster would be us and England and MAYBE(but not likely) Germany

Molon Labe
08-13-2008, 11:54 AM
The problem is that Russia is proving that there is a need for NATO. They are threatening their former satellites and beginning military action to gather resource rich areas. And if you look at some of their internals, they are slipping back towards the Soviet style. Only this time they're not calling it Communism.

I think that NATO provides a strong link to the west that surpasses a mere military alliance. If NATO were only a military alliance, you would have a good point. But joining NATO now means prosperity, Democracy, and freedom. It is very appealing to Eastern European countries.

I don't know if they type of government going on in Georgia and some of those places is exactly what i would call prosperity and democracy. Let's not forget who's economic advice Asia listened to that lead to it's 1997 collapse.

I guess then that every place on earth is of vital security interests to the U.S.
and now encroaching on this new supossed "soviet threat" is a good thing.
But that's the nature of today's Practical politics...it's about keeping the populace alarmed at numerous threats so they can lead us to safety.

What did the founders say? Avoid entangling alliances? Well... NATO and the UN are two.
I think those "dead white guys" had alot more wisdom than we give them credit for. We tend to act enlightened...Yet I know few in power postions who's recent decisions and policies I would compare to the founders.