PDA

View Full Version : The Bammer Hammer drives another nail...



Articulate_Ape
08-14-2010, 01:42 AM
...into the pine box of the Democrats by lending his support to the Ground Zero mosque (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0810/41060.html).

The fool has really done it now. Hello November.

djones520
08-14-2010, 04:25 AM
Sorry, but he's just backing the Constitution IMO on this one.

hampshirebrit
08-14-2010, 07:39 AM
President Barack Obama has come out in favour of allowing a mosque to be built near the site of the former World Trade Centre, destroyed nine years ago by Islamic extremists in hijacked airliners.

The site is near where almost 3,000 people died on September 11, 2001, after Muslim hijackers flew two hijacked airliners into the center's twin towers, which crumbled as New Yorkers fled in terror.

Obama said: 'As a citizen, and as president, I believe that Muslims have the same right to practice their religion as anyone else in this country.'


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/08/14/article-0-0ACA83B4000005DC-590_634x419.jpg

More at Linky (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1303000/President-Obama-proves-favour-new-mosque-place-twin-towers.html)

Wake up, America!!!!

djones520
08-14-2010, 07:42 AM
http://www.conservativeunderground.com/forum505/showthread.php?t=30844

Bit slow Hamp. You'll have to do the merge, I don't have BN powers.

hampshirebrit
08-14-2010, 07:46 AM
http://www.conservativeunderground.com/forum505/showthread.php?t=30844

Bit slow Hamp. You'll have to do the merge, I don't have BN powers.


Darn it ... neither do I. :(

PoliCon
08-14-2010, 08:53 AM
Sorry, but he's just backing the Constitution IMO on this one.

How do you figure?

PoliCon
08-14-2010, 08:55 AM
Obama has yet to meet a muslim he doesn't like - or an islamic cause for which he will not fight.

Rockntractor
08-14-2010, 09:11 AM
Sorry, but he's just backing the Constitution IMO on this one.

FAIL, constitutional or not Obama doesn't back up the constitution, he backs his own agenda.:rolleyes:

djones520
08-14-2010, 09:13 AM
How do you figure?

I've gone over all this before on the other threads about this. I'm not gonna rehash it. Islam is not an outlawed religion in this country. The constitution provides it the same protections it provides every other one. These were his words, and I couldn't agree more with them.


“But let me be clear: as a citizen, and as President, I believe that Muslims have the same right to practice their religion as anyone else in this country. That includes the right to build a place of worship and a community center on private property in lower Manhattan, in accordance with local laws and ordinances.”

Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0810/41060.html#ixzz0waN7FK1Z


You show me how they do not have that right, and we'll talk some more. Blaiming these people for the actions of insane terrorists is not working for me though.

Rockntractor
08-14-2010, 09:17 AM
I've gone over all this before on the other threads about this. I'm not gonna rehash it. Islam is not an outlawed religion in this country. The constitution provides it the same protections it provides every other one. These were his words, and I couldn't agree more with them.



You show me how they do not have that right, and we'll talk some more. Blaiming these people for the actions of insane terrorists is not working for me though.

Do you know anything about the Imam that is backing this mosque? Educate yourself.

djones520
08-14-2010, 09:19 AM
Do you know anything about the Imam that is backing this mosque? Educate yourself.

Would you care if it the Imam backing it had no radical ties at all? Somehow I think you wouldn't.

Rockntractor
08-14-2010, 09:23 AM
Would you care if it the Imam backing it had no radical ties at all? Somehow I think you wouldn't.In answer to your question it would make a difference if he was a benevolent mother Teresa type person.


Somehow I think you wouldn't.
I come on as having an evil character? Maybe after I have years and years of experience under my belt like you, I too will be wise!

djones520
08-14-2010, 09:29 AM
In answer to your question it would make a difference if he was a benevolent mother Teresa type person.


I come on as having an evil character? Maybe after I have years and years of experience under my belt like you, I too will be wise!

Never took you as having an evil character. A bit close minded at times, yes, but never evil.

I know you can be wrong at times, and I know I can be wrong at times, but this is a country that is supposed to tolerate religious freedom. They are not trying to build this mosque on Federal Land, or even state or city property. They are trying to build a place of worship on private land that they legally own. The America that I love and defend with my life would never try to stop any religion from attempting to do this.

Jfor
08-14-2010, 09:37 AM
Never took you as having an evil character. A bit close minded at times, yes, but never evil.

I know you can be wrong at times, and I know I can be wrong at times, but this is a country that is supposed to tolerate religious freedom. They are not trying to build this mosque on Federal Land, or even state or city property. They are trying to build a place of worship on private land that they legally own. The America that I love and defend with my life would never try to stop any religion from attempting to do this.

Wrong... They do not own all the land. They were not even forthcoming about the fact they do not own the land. The lease half of it. Also, the fact they are not forthcoming about where the money suddenly came from is a bit skeptical.

djones520
08-14-2010, 09:44 AM
Wrong... They do not own all the land. They were not even forthcoming about the fact they do not own the land. The lease half of it. Also, the fact they are not forthcoming about where the money suddenly came from is a bit skeptical.


Not quite. They own half of it, Have leased a portion of it from Con-Ed until 2071, and are in works with buying the rest from Con-Ed once an appraisal goes through.


So let me ask a question then.

Can people here honestly say they'd have no problem with this if the money wasn't suspect, and the Imam didn't have some questionable ties? From what I have read, there is no substantiated evidence that there is any wrong doing at all, but lets just say there is no question period. Would you guys still care?

Rockntractor
08-14-2010, 09:53 AM
So let me ask a question then.

Can people here honestly say they'd have no problem with this if the money wasn't suspect, and the Imam didn't have some questionable ties? From what I have read, there is no substantiated evidence that there is any wrong doing at all, but lets just say there is no question period. Would you guys still care?

I wouldn't have a problem if the intentions were right, but that is a moot point, the Imam has made his intentions clear to the rest of the world through his books and articles. If their intentions were good they wouldn't be erecting the mosque there, they would use another site out of respect, can you argue with that?

djones520
08-14-2010, 09:58 AM
I wouldn't have a problem if the intentions were right, but that is a mute point, the Imam has made his intentions clear to the rest of the world through his books and articles. If their intentions were good they wouldn't be erecting the mosque there, they would use another site out of respect, can you argue with that?

Have you read the books? I haven't, but what I've read of them states that he seeks to distance Islam from radicals and close the breach with western society. I don't know if it's true, but I have not read of anything other then allegations that he's a radical, not real proof of it.

I agree that there could have been better locations to build it. But I also believe that it shouldn't matter.

PoliCon
08-14-2010, 10:01 AM
I've gone over all this before on the other threads about this. I'm not gonna rehash it. Islam is not an outlawed religion in this country. The constitution provides it the same protections it provides every other one. These were his words, and I couldn't agree more with them.



You show me how they do not have that right, and we'll talk some more. Blaiming these people for the actions of insane terrorists is not working for me though.


That argument is all moot. Regardless of the religious beliefs of the people in question - the government blocks the construction of buildings all the time. Zoning laws.

PoliCon
08-14-2010, 10:02 AM
that is a mute point

It's a silent point?? I think you meant MOOT point :p


MOOT:

adj.

1. Subject to debate; arguable: a moot question.
2.
1. Law. Without legal significance, through having been previously decided or settled.
2. Of no practical importance; irrelevant.

PoliCon
08-14-2010, 10:03 AM
Have you read the books? I haven't, but what I've read of them states that he seeks to distance Islam from radicals and close the breach with western society. I don't know if it's true, but I have not read of anything other then allegations that he's a radical, not real proof of it.

I agree that there could have been better locations to build it. But I also believe that it shouldn't matter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ib9rofXQl6w

djones520
08-14-2010, 10:04 AM
That argument is all moot. Regardless of the religious beliefs of the people in question - the government blocks the construction of buildings all the time. Zoning laws.

http://www.rluipa.com/index.php/article/398.html

Constitutionally Speaking
08-14-2010, 10:06 AM
I don't think there is any real way to stop this but I don't see it as a freedom of religion thing. There is nothing there that is restricting the practice of their religion - not that it wold mean anything to the liberals, who have been blocking church construction for a while now. I object to that, and cannot in good conscience say they are not allowed to do the same - It is more of a property rights issue for me.


That being said, it is INCREDIBLY provocative of them to build it there. If their intent is to "reach out" to us, this is a PISS-POOR way of doing so. I cannot imagine a more insulting and inflamatory action. I would hope the construction workers in the are simply refuse to work on it.

The only way I can see to legally stop this is if there is a definite connection to terrorists - and I believe there is, but how do you prove it.

Rockntractor
08-14-2010, 10:08 AM
Have you read the books? I haven't, but what I've read of them states that he seeks to distance Islam from radicals and close the breach with western society. I don't know if it's true, but I have not read of anything other then allegations that he's a radical, not real proof of it.

I agree that there could have been better locations to build it. But I also believe that it shouldn't matter.

I have read portions in context, I don't need to read the entire book(s) I catch on fast when there is a pattern. Please continue to argue for Islam, we need the help.

djones520
08-14-2010, 10:16 AM
I have read portions in context, I don't need to read the entire book(s) I catch on fast when there is a pattern. Please continue to argue for Islam, we need the help.

You are obviously not getting my point at all. Thats ok though, you seem to miscontrue what I say a lot.

I'll try one last time. I don't give a damn what religion is trying to build what. Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hindu, Shintoism, whatever. As long as they do so legally, I will support their right to build a place of worship wherever they want.

Let me say that again. I, an Atheist, will support any religious organizations right to build a place of worship anywhere they want.

Rockntractor
08-14-2010, 10:23 AM
I'll try one last time. I don't give a damn what religion is trying to build what. Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hindu, Shintoism, whatever. As long as they do so legally, I will support their right to build a place of worship wherever they want.

Let me say that again. I, an Atheist, will support any religious organizations right to build a place of worship anywhere they want.

Umm, Mr. Jones this isn't about religion, it is about an attacking force that killed 3000 Americans and now one of their circle wants to erect a monument to their brave cause.

djones520
08-14-2010, 10:24 AM
Umm, Mr. Jones this isn't about religion, it is about an attacking force that killed 3000 Americans and now one of their circle wants to erect a monument to their brave cause.

Rock, I'm in the Stans fighting against that attacking force. Don't forget that.

Rockntractor
08-14-2010, 10:27 AM
Rock, I'm in the Stans fighting against that attacking force. Don't forget that.

This is why I never engage you, you immediately hold your service as a shield, good day Mr. Jones i can't argue with the us Air force My bad apparently debating you was attacking your service.

namvet
08-14-2010, 10:33 AM
Sorry, but he's just backing the Constitution IMO on this one.

isn't he having Bin Laden over for dinner????

djones520
08-14-2010, 10:34 AM
This is why I never engage you, you immediately hold your service as a shield, good day Mr. Jones i can't argue with the us Air force My bad apparently debating you was attacking your service.

*sighs* That is not what I was doing at all. Whatever though, sometimes trying to get the proper points across in mediums like this is harder then convincing Satanicus he's wrong.

bijou
08-14-2010, 10:52 AM
...New York currently boasts at least 30 mosques so it's not as if there is pressing need to find space for worshippers. The fact we Muslims know the idea behind the Ground Zero mosque is meant to be a deliberate provocation to thumb our noses at the infidel. The proposal has been made in bad faith and in Islamic parlance, such an act is referred to as "Fitna," meaning "mischief-making" that is clearly forbidden in the Koran. ...

Read more: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Mischief+Manhattan/3370303/story.html#ixzz0wamGPcvS

Jfor
08-14-2010, 11:05 AM
Have you read the books? I haven't, but what I've read of them states that he seeks to distance Islam from radicals and close the breach with western society. I don't know if it's true, but I have not read of anything other then allegations that he's a radical, not real proof of it.

I agree that there could have been better locations to build it. But I also believe that it shouldn't matter.

Then why would they call it the Cordoba Initiative at first and then when challenged the name suddenly changes? Muslims have a very long history of placing monuments on what they consider victories, hence the name Cordoba Initiative. This imam also does not believe hamas is a terrorist organization and that America is at fault for 9/11. So no, they should not be allowed to build their monument to muslim victory. Islam is a cult.

hampshirebrit
08-14-2010, 11:18 AM
Would you guys still care?

I bloody well would. I used to live in NYC. This is a kick in the guts for any NY resident, former or current, in my view. Doubly so for anyone who knows people who were killed or hurt on 9/11, as I do, as many of us do.

Legally they have the right to build where they want, ownership and zoning permitted. But this is not just a legal issue. It's a moral one as well.

Elsewhere you said something about tolerating religious freedom. You should consider exactly how tolerant this so called religion, Islam, is of other religions...as well as heathens like me, and you.

Anyway, I'm happy to see your tone-deaf president making a fool of himself. It means he's more likely to be a one-termer. Even most Democrats can't get behind him on this issue.

bijou
08-14-2010, 11:21 AM
Sorry for the late insert, I posted it and then realised I had meant to and it to this thread. It was easier to do a merge than report. :o

Apache
08-14-2010, 11:47 AM
*sighs* That is not what I was doing at all. Whatever though, sometimes trying to get the proper points across in mediums like this is harder then convincing Satanicus he's wrong.

djones, why can't you see what that mosque really represents? Like Rock said, this is a monument, not a place of healing. It will be a huge F U to America, and you know it....

marv
08-14-2010, 12:00 PM
This is NOT a "freedom of religion" issue. Again, hussein fails his constitutionality test as he often has!

How many times across this country have Christian churches and Jewish synagogues been prevented from building where they wanted? Most often it's property tax exemption issues with the local communities, so they build elsewhere. In this case, it's an issue of moral effrontery. The solution: build elsewhere!

Does this really, really stupid president not think things through? It's nothing to do with the practice of religion. It's the sensitivity of the public (read VOTERS).........

hussein's statements are (a) neither his own and, (b) purely political.

NJCardFan
08-14-2010, 12:09 PM
Sorry, but he's just backing the Constitution IMO on this one.

Congress isn't trying to block this one are they. So the Constitution doesn't play here. Also, no one isn't saying that Muslims can't practice their religion. They just don't want them building this thing this close to ground zero.



So let me ask a question then.

Can people here honestly say they'd have no problem with this if the money wasn't suspect, and the Imam didn't have some questionable ties? From what I have read, there is no substantiated evidence that there is any wrong doing at all, but lets just say there is no question period. Would you guys still care?

Let me flip this a bit. Say Germany wanted to build a German War Memorial within 1/2 mile of a concentration camp. Wouldn't you consider this in bad taste? Better yet, let me give you a better example close to home. What if someone wanted to open a gun shop or shooting close to the San Ysidro McDonalds where a nut went on a shooting rampage killing 21 including children. Keep in mind that it wouldn't go against the zoning laws of that township and under the law it would be completely illegal to do so. Would you be in support of that?

FlaGator
08-14-2010, 01:45 PM
Sorry, but he's just backing the Constitution IMO on this one.

In this case it does not matter if he is backing the Constitution because the building of this Mosque is only supported by 11 percent of the American people. Even if he is right most Americans are going to consider him as arrogantly putting his own will ahead of the American populace and as chief representative of the democratic party they will suffer in November.

Articulate_Ape
08-14-2010, 02:04 PM
Sorry, but he's just backing the Constitution IMO on this one.

I am not talking about the Constitutionality of the matter, I have already stated elsewhere that the people building this mosque have every right under the Constitution to do so. However, just as with the freedom of speech, having the right to do something doesn't make doing it right, and nor does it shield you from the reactions of the people who profoundly disagree with you.

The fact that Obama has sided with the Constitution is commendable and even admirable from an objective point of view given how unpopular the notion of this mosque is to so many people (in one of the bluest states even). Because he has sided with the unpopular he will now share in reaping the rewards of such a stance. This is yet another case where he should have kept his big mouth shut, if he is such a genius that is.

Bam Bam basically hit rock bottom and started digging with this one. There are a whole lot of voters in the blue NYC metro area who are going to want to make their ire known and what better place than the ballot box this November. Obama just put a face on this hot button issue and that face is unmistakably Democrat.

RobJohnson
08-14-2010, 02:12 PM
A mosque at ground zero would be sign of victory for Islam.

Articulate_Ape
08-14-2010, 02:16 PM
A mosque at ground zero would be sign of victory for Islam.

Until it mysteriously burns to the ground because of faulty wiring and slow fire engines.

hampshirebrit
08-14-2010, 03:31 PM
djones, why can't you see what that mosque really represents? Like Rock said, this is a monument, not a place of healing. It will be a huge F U to America, and you know it....

Exactly right.

It sucks, this indecent idea; it is intended as a deliberate insult to the memory of the innocents who lost their lives on 9/11 and their families and friends.

President Obama has made a major mistake. It may be constitutionally and legally correct, but it is morally and ethically wrong for this to go forward, any way one may care to cut it.

Piss on their mosque. If it's built next time I'm there, I will piss on it. I'm guessing they won't find many takers to build it though.

I'm happy enough with this monument, atheistic bastard that I am. It works for me. I don't agree with all of them, but Christian values trump Islam's any day of the week.

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h281/hampshirebrit/01CrucifixFoundMadeofWTCBeams.jpg

RobJohnson
08-14-2010, 05:23 PM
A friend of mine posted this on her facebook page....


We allow a mosque to be built at ground zero, but don't allow student to sing the nt'l anthem at a nt'l monument. The constitution somehow provides illegals with citizenship rights, but doesn't allow a legal citizen to pray on the steps of ...the Supreme Court Bldg. Kids are getting sent home from school for wearing an American flag on their shirt. Yes indeed, the inmates are running the asylum.

PoliCon
08-14-2010, 07:38 PM
You are obviously not getting my point at all. Thats ok though, you seem to miscontrue what I say a lot.

I'll try one last time. I don't give a damn what religion is trying to build what. Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hindu, Shintoism, whatever. As long as they do so legally, I will support their right to build a place of worship wherever they want.

Let me say that again. I, an Atheist, will support any religious organizations right to build a place of worship anywhere they want.

Sir - Islam is not a religion. It is an ideology.

Proud Infidel
08-15-2010, 06:24 AM
Obama has yet to meet a muslim he doesn't like - or an islamic cause for which he will not fight.

Let's not forget that he attended school at a madrassa (Islamic parochial school) as a kid in Indonesia!!
Is there an enemy of the American way of life that he WON'T kiss up to?